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⸺ HIP-Archive ⸺ / hip-40-validator-denylist
Tracking/discussion issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/285
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## Info - Author(s): @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io, @Anthonyra, @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped - Start Date: 2021-09-27 - Category: Technical, Economic - Original HIP PR: https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/284 - Tracking Issue: this - Status: In Discussion ## Rendered view https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md ## Summary While the situation with regards to Proof-of-Coverage gaming has improved and additional enhancements are intended, we need a backstop prevention mechanism that allows us to quickly allow the network to grow and deal with obvious gaming and spoofing situations as they materialize. This plan proposes that validators would maintain a denylist file of Hotspot addresses which are selected from a basic floor function, selecting the hotspots where earnings are abnormal, and then this is likey followed up with more metrics (see unresolved questions) This proposal has two consensus mechanisms: 1. how Hotspots are added or removed from the denylist 2. whether validators choose to adopt the community denylist
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jamiedubs pinned a message to this channel. 09/29/2021 6:17 AM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 6:23 AM
Just as a note on this HIP, we're not talking about stopping all gaming, just the most high profile ones. This will not be a method for you to report hotspots in your area. The focus on those would be better served by altering the PoC process and ultimately would need another HIP. The selection so far is 18 hotspots, as can be seen here https://etl.dewi.org/public/question/54f5138b-b7ec-47c7-9da3-6a8c94ffe0eb - we are not saying these are all gaming, just that they should be investigated (edited)
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@jerm How does one setup a Domain Name System-based blackhole list (DNSBL)? ... for us would it be P2PBL?? I briefly read the most informant and trustworthy source of information (wikipedia) and found myself lost in the sauce haha. I think it should be easy to access and use and remote to prevent "custom" alternations on validator side so it does sound like a better option in those regards
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deasydoesit 09/29/2021 7:11 AM
Would the deny list be an internal ledger curated within the scope of the validator and validator releases, or would it be something that validator operators would need to maintain on the system/infrastructure level?
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deasydoesit
Would the deny list be an internal ledger curated within the scope of the validator and validator releases, or would it be something that validator operators would need to maintain on the system/infrastructure level?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 7:43 AM
There would be an entity published list included with new releases
07:43
Validators can choose to delete it/not include it and add to it
07:49
super majority of a list, and the contents would need to be achieved for it to take effect
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deasydoesit 09/29/2021 8:15 AM
Where would implementation of the list occur? At the validator level within the scope of libp2p? Ultimately I’m trying to understand what the implications are, if any, for validator operators.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 8:17 AM
When PoC transactions are submitted to the consensus group, if a super majority (66.6%) of consensus group members agree that a given Hotspot address is on the denylist, any witness receipts from that address will be marked as invalid with a reason of denylist
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EdB-charlietango 09/29/2021 8:18 AM
I added the notes from discord discussion to comments on the HIP. Also added some other personal comments/suggestions.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 8:18 AM
P2P stays connected (often they don't publish a listen address) so they can still submit, it just marks it invalid (edited)
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EdB-charlietango
I added the notes from discord discussion to comments on the HIP. Also added some other personal comments/suggestions.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 8:18 AM
Calls in like 40 minutes :)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Calls in like 40 minutes :)
EdB-charlietango 09/29/2021 8:19 AM
If you want to jump on a call beforehand, I'm happy to talk through it. Most of it is pretty easy feedback. One point is worth considering...but maybe booting in light of urgency. (edited)
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Anthonyra
@jerm How does one setup a Domain Name System-based blackhole list (DNSBL)? ... for us would it be P2PBL?? I briefly read the most informant and trustworthy source of information (wikipedia) and found myself lost in the sauce haha. I think it should be easy to access and use and remote to prevent "custom" alternations on validator side so it does sound like a better option in those regards
An entry on the list would be stored as a DNS record, perhaps a TXT resource, formatted in such a way that the full domain name of the entry would come from the address (b58 public key) of the hotspot being denied.
08:21
That’s the basics.
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Ahhh that makes sense
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The TXT response could contain the reason for denial.
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When PoC transactions are submitted to the consensus group, if a super majority (66.6%) of consensus group members agree that a given Hotspot address is on the denylist, any witness receipts from that address will be marked as invalid with a reason of denylist
08:46
that can't work
08:46
at least not as described
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 8:47 AM
ok sure
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there are two possible mechanisms here: 1. we add bans to the chain, and they can work like that point describes (banlist would be a chain var) 2. the ban list needs to be the same on all of the validators currently in consensus
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evan
there are two possible mechanisms here: 1. we add bans to the chain, and they can work like that point describes (banlist would be a chain var) 2. the ban list needs to be the same on all of the validators currently in consensus
maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 10:03 AM
does it need to the same one? Or just everyone need to agree that some need to be blocked?
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recall that our consensus mechanism hides txns from other consensus members
10:07
so if we want to do denylist filtering, everyone has to agree
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 10:08 AM
Can't the member talk to each other? and share there lists, and if someone doesn't have one, they can either add it to there list and say they have it, or say they don't have it, and the other member keeps those transactions, or drop them?
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doesn't really work that way now, it would be a lot of new, speculative work
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 10:10 AM
Gotcha, but it could be possible.
10:11
But the issue is that everyone needs the same list, and if someone has a hotspot that is denied, they will just stall the CG right?
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I mean, you could work out a new system
10:23
but attempting to shoehorn something into the existing system, you will only filter spot X when spot X is on the list that everyone is using
10:23
if any validator in the cg accepts a txn into their proposal, it will be accepted by all
10:24
you could do post-hoc filtering, but that does risk halting the consensus group due to block disagreement
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What about users who don’t games for big rewards just consistent low rewards
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improving the network to catch the worst offenders should also catch lesser offenders
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HeliumGoat
What about users who don’t games for big rewards just consistent low rewards
I agree
10:39
Measures taken been to be more accurate vs based in assumptions. This current method seems to me as more of a threat to the network than what it aims to resolve. It is the people's network and we should aim to keep that as fair as possible.
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There need to be some form of AI code in place to detect location spoofing and gaming , as many people are probably still gaming that we don’t know about but just getting a small consistent reward , so they will go unnoticed ,
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in fact I might agitate in favor of a watchlist rather than a denylist—scale down all of their earnings and see what tricks they come up with to make up for it
10:41
but that might require more engineering hours than are available to plug this hole (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 10:43 AM
Oh and a big sorry to @JMF for stealing the 40th hip numbering (edited)
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jpharris
but that might require more engineering hours than are available to plug this hole (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 10:46 AM
To be clear from public talks that we've been having about this in #hip-discussion has already resulted in some changing tackticks of these hackers
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This isn't meant to be for those people who simply put an address in discord claiming they have to be gaming. This system in my mind is to protect the blockchain from situations if left alone while an "actual" fix is being developed would lead to more damages than necessary. The current example is the account with Clever Smoke Raven (8HNT/day) but I'd hope this could also be further expanded to even help protect against Modesto / Port Huron situations and even Meerkat (we saw them mine 940 HNT per epoch)... the fixes took time and for every epoch (reward block) it lead to further damages to the network.. Returning to current since most people don't worry about the past unless they've been burnt by it personally. If the actual fix which there's one proposed for Clever Smoke Raven takes even a month to implement that account could have earned 3100 HNT and each month thereafter vs the 615 HNT as of right now (edited)
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yeah, on board with the quicker solution
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Now, this also requires the entire consensus group to agree to be 100% effective and I think that's achievable for examples like I gave above and less likely for a disgruntled "neighbor" hotspot trying to snuff out the competition (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 10:52 AM
HIP will be updated soon to reflect but there are two options
waveform pinned a message to this channel. 09/29/2021 11:03 AM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
HIP will be updated soon to reflect but there are two options
Clarification is probably needed as well between a "banlist" where they are preventing from earning HNT totally - does this mean they do not participate in PoC at all? So cannot witness, beacon or challenge or earn DCs. And there is a "denylist" where some earning options are denied such as "Witnessing" where in reality they are effectively classed similarly to "witness_too_close" to every other hotspot for PoC calculations. So cannot earn from witnessing but can challenge and issue beacons that others can witness, earn from those and also earn for data transfer. Or is the Deny for all PoC and they become "non interactive" for PoC, like a data only hotspot.
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waveform
Clarification is probably needed as well between a "banlist" where they are preventing from earning HNT totally - does this mean they do not participate in PoC at all? So cannot witness, beacon or challenge or earn DCs. And there is a "denylist" where some earning options are denied such as "Witnessing" where in reality they are effectively classed similarly to "witness_too_close" to every other hotspot for PoC calculations. So cannot earn from witnessing but can challenge and issue beacons that others can witness, earn from those and also earn for data transfer. Or is the Deny for all PoC and they become "non interactive" for PoC, like a data only hotspot.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:11 AM
currently this is only describing witnessing being invalidated
11:11
challengee and beacon are both allowed, often what they have been doing is blocking inbound connections, and only submitting receipts to challengers, so this could be a sign the behaviour has been fixed
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I can see great value in all rewards though since meerkat would be able to do what it did with this system
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
currently this is only describing witnessing being invalidated
Yeah but people are talking of a "banlist" so wanted to make sure they understand there is a difference.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:12 AM
but right now a good majority of that list has no beacons, because this would show exactly where they are
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At current this is more directed to the current gaming, and could be more focused than it should be.. it’s hard when you don’t know what the next “gaming” situation will consist of
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but right now a good majority of that list has no beacons, because this would show exactly where they are
So in effect turning them into DO-HS unless they come clean 😉
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fwiw the only dynamic system like you all are talking about that is possible is tossing out any txn that mentions a banned spot
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waveform
So in effect turning them into DO-HS unless they come clean 😉
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:14 AM
yep
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if we're monkeying with txn validity this list will need to be in the ledger
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evan
fwiw the only dynamic system like you all are talking about that is possible is tossing out any txn that mentions a banned spot
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:15 AM
OK so its an all or nothing situation
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:16 AM
i wondered if there was a method for a user to anonymously restore service without having to appeal the ban and identify themselves, for example, returning to normal behaviour (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
OK so its an all or nothing situation
I think this would line up better with a true stopgap however since we won’t know if beaconing is next or if dc rewards is next or some other txn like HTLC .. for that matter
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@evan what is the approximate LOE on implementing something like this?
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fairly low
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:26 AM
Throwing a thought out....might a "non-coverage" mapping solution play into this in a useful way (similar sort of to the idea behind HIP-22 "anchor gateways" or "golden tabs", just reverse / distributed inference, I think). For example, perhaps hexes with reported hotspots that are flagged as "non-covered" can receive some kind of penalty similar to transmit scales (trust score / trust scale?), and in order to "restore" them the owners (or others, just owner has more incentive) would need to map them to some extent (edited)
11:27
Combine that with a localized copy of each denylist, and the way you improve the denylist score is by transferring more data (super super high level hamfisted example, hopefully the gist gets is generally getting across..)
11:29
That is, the denylist is only manipulated by parties that interact with the gateway in question. Trust of authenticity is degraded over time if a considerable number of attempts to transmit data in some defined radius are not successful. At that point even if you are legit the fact that you aren't effectively sending/receiving is problematic. 🤷‍♂️
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what was the thinking behind wanting to make the list a chain variable btw? forget who proposed that. that feels like the worst of the options as it is not easy for validators to opt in or out of
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capcom
what was the thinking behind wanting to make the list a chain variable btw? forget who proposed that. that feels like the worst of the options as it is not easy for validators to opt in or out of
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:33 AM
Not only that, but doesn't that make the list central, which is what the vast majority of the pushback is re "being on a list"? 🤔
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I like the idea of there eventually being several listing orgs
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:35 AM
I'm not familiar with the technicals of what I believe would be the witness list gossiping, but would a similar process work here?
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jpharris
I like the idea of there eventually being several listing orgs
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:36 AM
you mean like pseudo credit agencies? 🧐
11:42
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I think you had also mentioned a few things that could be implemented with some ML/AI if anyone in the community is versed enough. For example you had mentioned flagging suspect units that deviate a certain amount from the mean, or other suspicious behavior like earning more in 1D than the average makes in a week, etc. Those ML/AI solutions could perhaps be added to validators (perhaps even optionally) in such a way that the CG can either "learn" or "be taught" these patterns which it can then pick up in the data as aggregate in a way any given individual couldn't -- volumetrically and just from a standpoint of seeing patterns maybe a human wouldn't otherwise. Also appealing that it adheres to "code as law" rather than human trust systems. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I think you had also mentioned a few things that could be implemented with some ML/AI if anyone in the community is versed enough. For example you had mentioned flagging suspect units that deviate a certain amount from the mean, or other suspicious behavior like earning more in 1D than the average makes in a week, etc. Those ML/AI solutions could perhaps be added to validators (perhaps even optionally) in such a way that the CG can either "learn" or "be taught" these patterns which it can then pick up in the data as aggregate in a way any given individual couldn't -- volumetrically and just from a standpoint of seeing patterns maybe a human wouldn't otherwise. Also appealing that it adheres to "code as law" rather than human trust systems. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:46 AM
I think it's important we don't automate this deny too much, there are occasions , such as a stall, where hotspots earnt 150hnt in a day for example
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:47 AM
true, however one offs like that I believe can generally be thrown out or ignored as outliers and likely wouldn't cross the algo's radar. But then again I am not the ML/AI expert here. 😅
11:48
that is to say, I think that would be noise in the aggregate. but I could be wrong.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
true, however one offs like that I believe can generally be thrown out or ignored as outliers and likely wouldn't cross the algo's radar. But then again I am not the ML/AI expert here. 😅
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:48 AM
The basic floor has a etl question tho
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:49 AM
It just feels personally like the whole gaming thing seems like a cat and mouse chase if there aren't at least some minimal "code enforcements" no pun intended
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:49 AM
You should see the data when it's 7 days Vs 14, that brings up 300 odd hotspots
11:49
All of which I couldn't find more than 1-2 legit miners who beacon
11:49
So I think 14 days is right, only for the most extreme
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:49 AM
so what is the high level english version of what this is showing?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:49 AM
And then the PoC changes to limits of what a hotspot can reasonably limit Also go in
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:50 AM
or filtering for, rather.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
so what is the high level english version of what this is showing?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:50 AM
Take the daily global AVG, X 14 (days) , anyone earning more than an average hotspot does in 2 weeks (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:50 AM
TIMES 14 or over a 14 day rolling period
11:51
like a moving average
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The main value of this proposal is that it gives the community a way to deal with issues that doesn’t require engineering resources to execute. Right now the problem with anything is that the level of expertise required to implement a solution is high. So I like having this backstop, even if it’s hugely flawed for several reasons
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capcom
The main value of this proposal is that it gives the community a way to deal with issues that doesn’t require engineering resources to execute. Right now the problem with anything is that the level of expertise required to implement a solution is high. So I like having this backstop, even if it’s hugely flawed for several reasons
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:53 AM
good point. very supportive of the "distributed" list as a primary axiom
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this would be used for filtering and not "denying" poc right? maybe it's worth adding some definitions on a workflow directly into the HIP: step 1. identification step 2. analysis step 3. list generation / publish step 4. list combination / acceptance step 5. challengers censor poc witness receipts other important things: appeals, TTLs, implementation of list fetching (dns vs websites with json/yaml vs chain vars, etc.
11:54
i think this HIP is more about step 4, 5, and maybe things like appeals.
11:55
(and i'm making up steps here. just trying to get us out of the weeds)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
TIMES 14 or over a 14 day rolling period
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:55 AM
I kind of invisioned the committee (for the first list of its kind, we want many list) would run this every 2 weeks to match the 14 days stats, one of my main conserns is that we drop those proposed 18 at the start 18 more will just pop up , but over time this would be less used (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 09/29/2021 11:56 AM
I guess my question would be what does the committee "do"?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 11:56 AM
Vote on each deny list entry
11:56
With a super majority needed to add them
11:58
When this list of hotspots is generated, it would also need to be published, and thoughts on how they can appeal (anonymity should be thought about here) are needed. (edited)
12:00
And then some sort of decay rate to the deny/working out how they can get out of the deny (edited)
12:01
I think a big thing is were suggesting the first list of its kind, not the only one
12:02
The more lists we have , the more chances we have of CG members agreeing on bans Vs false positives (edited)
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The floor will be enforced on-chain, right? Like, in order for a hotspot to even be on a denylist, it has to have been flagged somewhat recently?
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jpharris
The floor will be enforced on-chain, right? Like, in order for a hotspot to even be on a denylist, it has to have been flagged somewhat recently?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 12:08 PM
Yeah flagged by this floor first (first draft: https://etl.dewi.org/public/question/54f5138b-b7ec-47c7-9da3-6a8c94ffe0eb) , investiaged/appealed, voted on and then merged into the first list (edited)
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jpharris
The floor will be enforced on-chain, right? Like, in order for a hotspot to even be on a denylist, it has to have been flagged somewhat recently?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 12:11 PM
But at the same time, if validators decided to pull from another list, and all CG members had it, the deny would pass (edited)
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:14 PM
I think the list shouldn't block hotspots, but IP's too!
12:15
Also it should be psudo anonymous.
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IPs are not on chain, so that seems harder
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:15 PM
Not just a list that is there that open to the public.
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So another listing body could put any hotspot on their list. Maybe opening up to multiple listers should be a future HIP
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:16 PM
I think the list should be subscribed too, and you have to be a validator to "buy" them
12:16
And it will allow the market to see who is wrong and who isn't
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centralization?
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:16 PM
Not cetrulised
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jpharris
So another listing body could put any hotspot on their list. Maybe opening up to multiple listers should be a future HIP
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 12:16 PM
Yes for example I could publish a list, if enough validators used it the hotspots in my list would be denied (edited)
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:17 PM
But if you have a list, and I have a list, and we both charge for it. We may have diffrent thigns we look for and flag.
12:17
That would allow validators to go check what they want to do.
12:17
But if cost too much validators, won't use it.
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Yeah, I’m just saying there should be a quality check on-chain before the listing is decentralized
12:18
just to make sure hotspots earn a certain floor before they’re allowed to be denied
12:18
Possibly a different floor from the one to be considered on this list
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:19 PM
I think validators should just agree in the CG by a simple vote, on what hotspots are going to be removed from that CG group by a simple majority.
12:19
So you can't censor somoene by just one person, a group needs to decide.
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maco2035 🐮
I think validators should just agree in the CG by a simple vote, on what hotspots are going to be removed from that CG group by a simple majority.
this is weaker than the actual proposal
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jpharris
just to make sure hotspots earn a certain floor before they’re allowed to be denied
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 12:20 PM
That's only my proposed solution for the first list, just so we target a workable amount of hotspots that a committee can vote on
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evan
this is weaker than the actual proposal
maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:21 PM
Yeah, but the point is to make it so that a good chuck of them need to make sure that they aren't just banning the whole network, so there hotspots get more rewards.
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maco2035 🐮
Yeah, but the point is to make it so that a good chuck of them need to make sure that they aren't just banning the whole network, so there hotspots get more rewards.
It has to be unanimous in the current proposal. What you’re suggesting is worse
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worse and harder to do
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:21 PM
But the whole list has to unanimous. (edited)
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:21 PM
Just some of the hotspots. (edited)
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any particular address needs to be unanimous
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:22 PM
Oh
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@capcom Troll I think you should give overall control of the ban list to me 😂
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:22 PM
That is going to be harder, if a particaular validator says all hotspots, should be free to do whatever.
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I'll raise a PR against. the HIP now
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Rob
@capcom Troll I think you should give overall control of the ban list to me 😂
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 12:22 PM
"blame rob" has a good ring to it
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Rob
@capcom Troll I think you should give overall control of the ban list to me 😂
Probably worse ideas honestly, we’re already seeing some of them
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Rob
@capcom Troll I think you should give overall control of the ban list to me 😂
maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:23 PM
How much to ban all the network but my hotspots? Troll (edited)
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there's a script for that
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12:26
how is replicating the gamer's miner fork going @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io ?
12:26
can we join. the cool crew yet and rake the dollars until HIP-40 goes in?
12:26
ooops wrong discord server 😂
coolcry 3
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:27 PM
I think forking will happen if this goes through. Many people are against censorship.
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good, that's how it's supposed to work
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maco2035 🐮
I think forking will happen if this goes through. Many people are against censorship.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/29/2021 12:28 PM
Good luck to them trying to find support to code the fork! (edited)
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:28 PM
I never said I would join them.
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nah forking is whats gonna be happening in approx 2 hours time after my wife finishes watching Great British Bake Off Troll
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:28 PM
I think they are going to be screwed to find any support.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Good luck to them trying to find support to code the fork! (edited)
maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:29 PM
Don't need to, they just need to copy the code changes daily.
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EdB-charlietango 09/29/2021 12:29 PM
DNS stuff that jerm was suggesting was intended to be a short-term implementation of the denylist anyways. I liked that idea.
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i think you underestimate the amount of effort required...
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12:29
but personally, would love to see a fork of helium running
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NodeJS validator - run it on AWS Lambda function with kenesis for streaming blocks and S3 for storing the blocks #ServerlessValidator
12:30
we need a HIP for that?
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maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:30 PM
No you just need the code to run on a validator.
12:31
For lamda
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Cloud Native Blockchain Validator rather than having some archaic server management duties
12:31
does that exist yet, a crypto Function as a Service offering?
12:31
you donate CPU, people run code, you get paid tokens
12:31
must do
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At some point, are we going to get some useful comments, Rob, or are we going to keep getting TMI about your personal life and side chatter about other chains? Stay on topic for this channel, pls.
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EdB-charlietango 09/29/2021 12:32 PM
Re: censorship... if validators want to support/allow gaming by not implementing the denylist, just make it clear. Then people can move support off validators to other ones. 🤷‍♂️ ... alternatively... people who don't want to support denylist concept can chose to move to the validators that don't implement it. easy peasy. (edited)
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Rob
you donate CPU, people run code, you get paid tokens
maco2035 🐮 09/29/2021 12:32 PM
hmm reminds me of like fliecoin.
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Try to keep things on-topic. Backscroll is brutal enough already.
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hashc0de
At some point, are we going to get some useful comments, Rob, or are we going to keep getting TMI about your personal life and side chatter about other chains? Stay on topic for this channel, pls.
I dunno I am waiting for the useful comments to come and thought I'd liven it up a bit in here.
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coolstory 1
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feel free to send it to #off-topic if you need a home.
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when this HIP gets approved I'll make a limited edition NFT of a validator hitting a bad miner with a baseball bat and gift it to the authors 👍
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okay well I’m convinced the greater risk than a hotspot being denied unfairly is one being allowed to continue to operate due to antilisters—and that the latter risk should be effectively managed under the proposed model. (edited)
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After reading the HIP it appears there are an awful lot of manual steps in there to be completed by a person/group not only to review the data, but on the part of those running validators as well. I would suggest an automated mechanism for the validator owners to update the list instead of distributing it only with the software releases. I can foresee problems when the version of the list differs between validators and given how the validator owners tend to wait to update their software when possible to ensure it is stable before doing so, will only delay the updates to the list.
13:20
Additionally, the idea of some validators using the list and others not using the list raises some concerns. If the primary purpose of a validator, and what they are earning rewards for, is validating transaction on the network, a function I see as oversight, why would the validator have the ability to choose to disregard this particular decision made by the community?
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Doggywalker29 09/29/2021 3:56 PM
The deny list should have a well defined list of criteria that can be easily identified for nomination and validator agreement with an automated way to remove a miner from the list if it no longer meets the deny list criteria for a defined period of time.
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Doggywalker29
The deny list should have a well defined list of criteria that can be easily identified for nomination and validator agreement with an automated way to remove a miner from the list if it no longer meets the deny list criteria for a defined period of time.
The problem is to code something that automates it you first need to know what the exploit is... this is the means to prevent further damage to the network while the "automated" fix is developed and deployed
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Anthonyra
The problem is to code something that automates it you first need to know what the exploit is... this is the means to prevent further damage to the network while the "automated" fix is developed and deployed
So you are admitting to not really knowing the exploit. This may be the reason many have the feeling of it being a witch hunt. What will be in place to make sure that the criteria list is actually met and that there isn't an abuse of power. After seeing it here, I don't trust the integrity without a system for checks and balances.
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Kiyotaka
So you are admitting to not really knowing the exploit. This may be the reason many have the feeling of it being a witch hunt. What will be in place to make sure that the criteria list is actually met and that there isn't an abuse of power. After seeing it here, I don't trust the integrity without a system for checks and balances.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 12:22 AM
He not talking about the current exploit. He talking about a hypothetical future one. We already know the current one.
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Is there any data that can be produced for the community to view that supports the definitive decision made as to what the current exploit you're referring to is? It would be helpful to the community on making a more educated decision as to supporting the HIP or not.
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Kiyotaka
Is there any data that can be produced for the community to view that supports the definitive decision made as to what the current exploit you're referring to is? It would be helpful to the community on making a more educated decision as to supporting the HIP or not.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 12:50 AM
Why don't you go ahead and tell them the exploit that allowed Clever Smoke Raven and the other hotspots on the wallet to make massive rewards over a few days and then cash it out, while sending HNT to members of this discord with vulgar messages attached?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why don't you go ahead and tell them the exploit that allowed Clever Smoke Raven and the other hotspots on the wallet to make massive rewards over a few days and then cash it out, while sending HNT to members of this discord with vulgar messages attached?
This is your proposal and I am trying to understand it. Again, as one of the authors on this, help me to understand it. Is there any data that can be produced for the community to view that supports the definitive decision made as to what the current exploit you're referring to is? It would be helpful to the community on making a more educated decision as to supporting the HIP or not. (edited)
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Kiyotaka
This is your proposal and I am trying to understand it. Again, as one of the authors on this, help me to understand it. Is there any data that can be produced for the community to view that supports the definitive decision made as to what the current exploit you're referring to is? It would be helpful to the community on making a more educated decision as to supporting the HIP or not. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 12:57 AM
A: You have me blocked for no reason, so i'm not exactly inclined to acquiesce to your request. B: Don't play dumb. You know exactly what the exploit is in much more detail than I do. I'm not here to play games with you. You can explain how the owner of those hotspots cheated and ripped off the network.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A: You have me blocked for no reason, so i'm not exactly inclined to acquiesce to your request. B: Don't play dumb. You know exactly what the exploit is in much more detail than I do. I'm not here to play games with you. You can explain how the owner of those hotspots cheated and ripped off the network.
No, I do not know exactly how this exploit is implemented. I would say there are multiple ways. Which is why I am asking if there is data to support this proposal and the conclusion behind it. This is not a game. The network has make decisions lately that many hotspot owners globally felt deeply much more than the numbers previously given for this issue. With these recent events, it is important that we, as the community members helping build and support this network, all make the most educated decisions we can moving forward and that we fully understand the results of our decisions. I am asking for the data that would have supported this defensive decision on exploitation. If that data does not exist then let's move on to the next question. What ensures that this expliot will actually be resolved by this HIP? What preventative measures would be in place should this exploit be spread across multiple devices as to not trigger any flags based on this criteria proposed? Would this result in new floors and if so, when will these floors start affecting the average miner? (edited)
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Kiyotaka
No, I do not know exactly how this exploit is implemented. I would say there are multiple ways. Which is why I am asking if there is data to support this proposal and the conclusion behind it. This is not a game. The network has make decisions lately that many hotspot owners globally felt deeply much more than the numbers previously given for this issue. With these recent events, it is important that we, as the community members helping build and support this network, all make the most educated decisions we can moving forward and that we fully understand the results of our decisions. I am asking for the data that would have supported this defensive decision on exploitation. If that data does not exist then let's move on to the next question. What ensures that this expliot will actually be resolved by this HIP? What preventative measures would be in place should this exploit be spread across multiple devices as to not trigger any flags based on this criteria proposed? Would this result in new floors and if so, when will these floors start affecting the average miner? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 1:11 AM
Done with your games. Bye.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Done with your games. Bye.
I find it very odd that when asking to understand a proposal to be better educated on the decision making process that it is then considered a game. Many in the community would find this information beneficial so that we can all understand the issue together. Other questions that come to mind. Are there 24 hours, 14/30 day figures that show how much this particular exploit being proposed has earned passed what you feel should have been earned? Where there formulas used to produce these figures and if so, what are they? How much can the average operator expect to see change in their rewards after this alleged exploit would be resolved?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:22 AM
Your getting stuck on the implementation of the first list, which is up for discussion, the hips more about the implementation of the denylist, which validators could use to subscribe to any list they want (if any at all) (edited)
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Please take time if needed to look for answers to the questions I've already asked as they would be useful in this decision making process as it has been used as a staple for implementing this HIP. The more educated the community is the more we can prevent recent events, that again, was felt deeply my hotspot owners globally. As for the implementation of the denylist. What else would the implementation of this denylist look to help resolve? This is another item giving validates more power over The People's Network and we need to make sure we all fully understand before consenting to give up that power. These decisions impact the community as a whole and we should all have the opportunity to make the most educated decision vs shaming/bullying and limiting participation in HIP discussions when views may be opposing the HIP.
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01:37
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
01:37
This is one of the correct places for these discussions, correct?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:38 AM
The list is contentious for sure, we'd have to make sure the community is happy with the section, but we need to define if they want this hip, emergency power to deny hotspots which validators can choose to use
01:38
But again, the hip more outlines the method to deny than the selection for a list by an entity
01:39
If we can get off the talk about the floor and the basic selection at the moment, and just focus on the idea of a deny list that would move the convo in
01:39
Then as a community here, we can help define real metrics for selection later
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Kiyotaka
This is one of the correct places for these discussions, correct?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:40 AM
Yeah, when a hip get proposed the rooms the best place to chat about it :)
01:41
Or comments in git to the tracking issue
01:41
Info Author(s): @BFGNeil, @anthonyra, @elontusk Start Date: 2021-09-27 Category: Technical, Economic Original HIP PR: #284 Tracking Issue: #285 (this) Status: In Discussion Rendered view https://gi...
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Yes I am trying to help understand it fully to make an educated decision as to if I personally want this HIP and the questions asked would help not only myself but all in the community who wish to participate. Increasing community involvement helps ensure The People's Network stays The People Network and that it doesn't become The Network Ran by the Select Few.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:43 AM
Maybe better to change this hip, keep this as just the mechanism for a deny
01:43
And then maybe another hip for a entity list (edited)
01:46
Hash's comment here defines what we're trying to outline here way better
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I think it would be best to separate the two as well. Mechanism in this HIP. Selection criteria / governance related things in the other.
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01:48
Then at least the work can be implemented while the more challenging part of governance and criteria can be discussed.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:49 AM
I'll have a go at the hip today based on what we've talked about :) feel free to help @ap!
01:49
Really am just trying to keep the motivation going here :)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'll have a go at the hip today based on what we've talked about :) feel free to help @ap!
I’ll give it a go. I’m fully motivated. It’s a security mechanism that the network needs as a stop gap measure.
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Ok then what exactly would this mechanism be aimed at addressing/resolving. Again, this proposal gives validators more power/influence over The People's Network. What is the reasoning behind asking us to concent on giving validators that power?
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Kiyotaka
Ok then what exactly would this mechanism be aimed at addressing/resolving. Again, this proposal gives validators more power/influence over The People's Network. What is the reasoning behind asking us to concent on giving validators that power?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:51 AM
The decentralised ability to accept the list by participants
01:51
Or any list :)
01:51
Other implementations are centralised, such as storing denys in chain vars (edited)
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Thank you, I look forward to reading the revised HIP. I hope it can be ready to present and discuss on the next call so that we can all stay up-to-date and as educated on the issue as possible.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:52 AM
It won't be that slow, next calls a month away :)
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 1:53 AM
No
01:58
This method says, if all CG members have a denylist, and have the same hotspot on it, transactions from that hotspot would be invalidated with the reason of denylist
01:58
Evan confirmed it has to be all CG members, can't do things like super majority, all or none
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:02 AM
Yes
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:05 AM
For the list? Again let's not focus on that, I'm gonna pull that from the hip just to define the method
02:05
Your right in that the list contents would be very controversial were just trying to define a mechanism
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
For the list? Again let's not focus on that, I'm gonna pull that from the hip just to define the method
No, I meant on voting for or against this HIP and any future HIPs.
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Kiyotaka
No, I meant on voting for or against this HIP and any future HIPs.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:06 AM
So #hip-31-governance-by-token-lock isn't ready yet, but that's where hips are heading
02:06
Token lock to vote
02:06
Right now they're just strawpolls
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Oh yes, I can see why some express concerns in the past. We should strive to promote a safe and fair communication for all and not just the agenda of those with power to retaliate against other members.
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02:08
So back to the mechanism.
02:09
What exactly is it aiming to address and are validators the only solution to hand over this power to? I am just asking you understand. Again, I want to keep this The People's Network.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:10 AM
Sure, validators are people too, some of the most heavily invested into the project doing well, they have locked funds they can't return for a 5 month lockup period
02:10
We have two choices for this hip
02:10
1) Denys are added to a blockchain based chain var
02:10
2) deny list is published and validators have to agree to use a list and what list they use
02:11
1 is obviously controlled centrally and not a good idea
02:11
(in my opinion)
02:12
Were asking the folks that run the blockchain, who verify transactions, to deny transactions based on the block list, not really anywhere else this can be done
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Sure, validators are people too, some of the most heavily invested into the project doing well, they have locked funds they can't return for a 5 month lockup period
I am having a hard time understanding. Does this mean that validators should have more of a say on network operations and governance over non-validator hotspot owners because they staked?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 2:14 AM
lol
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Kiyotaka
I am having a hard time understanding. Does this mean that validators should have more of a say on network operations and governance over non-validator hotspot owners because they staked?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:14 AM
No not at all, im just saying, if CG was still on hotspots, hotspot owners would need to use the list, but it's not, it's on validators
02:14
So needs to be done there
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Were asking the folks that run the blockchain, who verify transactions, to deny transactions based on the block list, not really anywhere else this can be done
My question was more towards what this mechanism would aim to address and if validators were the only option for the community to hand over power to.
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Kiyotaka
My question was more towards what this mechanism would aim to address and if validators were the only option for the community to hand over power to.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:16 AM
Transaction validation (not invalid/valid, just if they are from valid sources) is done in CG which is on validators , that's the place all this needs to happen
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
lol
I am not sure why this is funny? Is it laughable to assume that The People's Network should be more in the hands of the hotspot owners that collectively build and support the network vs validators?
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Kiyotaka
I am not sure why this is funny? Is it laughable to assume that The People's Network should be more in the hands of the hotspot owners that collectively build and support the network vs validators?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:18 AM
Validators often are the same people building coverage :)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Transaction validation (not invalid/valid, just if they are from valid sources) is done in CG which is on validators , that's the place all this needs to happen
I see what you're saying. Under the current setup, it would have to be validators, in the future there could be a HIP for other committies that could manages such things via consensus.
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Kiyotaka
I see what you're saying. Under the current setup, it would have to be validators, in the future there could be a HIP for other committies that could manages such things via consensus.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:18 AM
Yep!
02:18
So think of hips like a first draft
02:18
Were asking for the mechanism at this stage
02:19
That method can be updated later via the same process
02:20
These things always start out really roughly defined, and over time get much more simplified
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Validators often are the same people building coverage :)
They aren't the only people. Being The People's Network we should be inclusive to all as everyone's stake is equally as impactful and relevant to them relative to their own perspective and is critical for protecting the integrity of decentralization.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:21 AM
For sure, totally right :)
02:23
I like to think of the future partial staking in relation to this hip, for example if I partially stake against a validator, and that validator either a) doesn't use a list, b)lists someone I don't think is hacking or c)won't list someone, I could move my stake (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So think of hips like a first draft
I am familiar with the HIP process, I am just being cautious as to understand so that I'm not denied participation in HIP discussions as I currently have been as it seems apparent that Helium allows such abuses to happen. Such things break the foundation for the integrity of The People's Network.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 2:25 AM
lol
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So with that question being answered, I think the proposal of the mechanism isn't enough or right for me at this time. I would like to see committes added to the proposal or this proposal to take place after establishing of committed would take place. Nothing saying it HAS to be validators. There are more people on the network now and community involvement is getting higher. Committes could place the power amongst all hotspot owners vs just validators. If this mechanism will judge the transactions and penalties will impact those that are part of the community then it seems fitting that they would be judged by peers. All peers. Like a jury duty system. This system already exist to a certain degree just with challenges.
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Kiyotaka
I am familiar with the HIP process, I am just being cautious as to understand so that I'm not denied participation in HIP discussions as I currently have been as it seems apparent that Helium allows such abuses to happen. Such things break the foundation for the integrity of The People's Network.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:30 AM
Denied from what? Were talking right now :)
02:30
Remember we're the authors, me and Elon both helped write it
02:33
Discord is centrally owned by helium Inc tho, if that access was removed because of behaviour, you can always comment on the git like a few have done, and join the zoom calls etc
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Denied from what? Were talking right now :)
I am taking about the fact that you brought this up in discussion yesterday in open chat and then banned all my abilities to participate both actively and passively because I have opposing views, even though no server rule was broken. It is because of situations like this that the power needs to stay amongst the people as sometimes those given power abuse it for their own agenda, bypassing parts of democratic process. If we cannot trust moderators, admin, and community developers not to abuse power in The People's Network then how can we trust giving more and more power to the same group? Because they staked money? Again, everyone has their own interests in being hotspot owners.
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Kiyotaka
I am taking about the fact that you brought this up in discussion yesterday in open chat and then banned all my abilities to participate both actively and passively because I have opposing views, even though no server rule was broken. It is because of situations like this that the power needs to stay amongst the people as sometimes those given power abuse it for their own agenda, bypassing parts of democratic process. If we cannot trust moderators, admin, and community developers not to abuse power in The People's Network then how can we trust giving more and more power to the same group? Because they staked money? Again, everyone has their own interests in being hotspot owners.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:34 AM
02:34
Helium isn't this discord
02:34
They are two different things
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 2:39 AM
Aaaand there it is.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Discord is centrally owned by helium Inc tho, if that access was removed because of behaviour, you can always comment on the git like a few have done, and join the zoom calls etc
There are #rules for the server with criteria but that criteria doesn't need to be met. It is at the discretion and agenda of those given the ability to defend and mute others. With no checks and balances, abuse of power, treat to equal involvement in the community and the democratic process already outlined, what guarantees can one have this system won't be abused. I just need to make sure that I fully understand the transition of power to more centralized methods and at this point I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. Committes, serving almost like a jury duty situation, would achieve the same task while keep power amongst all in the network and could help to more quickly resolve a greater number of issues that come up over time. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:40 AM
Can you move this to #off-topic please
02:40
This is about hip40
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Is this off topic? A committee to run the mechanism being proposed with supporting examples of how a jury duty like committee would help prevent abuse of power and an alternative to the power being given validators in this proposal?
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Kiyotaka
Is this off topic? A committee to run the mechanism being proposed with supporting examples of how a jury duty like committee would help prevent abuse of power and an alternative to the power being given validators in this proposal?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:44 AM
Again I'm dropping that part to focus on the mechanism
02:44
I agree the list should be another hip
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Again I'm dropping that part to focus on the mechanism
Yes, you said you were revising it. So where should we have the discussion on the mechanism and the power it currently proposes to be given to validators vs keeping power amongst all hotspot owners?
02:47
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
02:47
I don't see it in the guidelines as to where to move that type of discussion as it seems to pertain to this HIP.
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Kiyotaka
Yes, you said you were revising it. So where should we have the discussion on the mechanism and the power it currently proposes to be given to validators vs keeping power amongst all hotspot owners?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:48 AM
Again, it can't be done at the hotspot level, the mechanism has to be done on validators as that's where transaction validation is done - in CG (edited)
02:48
(not if they're valid or invalid witnesses, just where they're added to blocks)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Again, it can't be done at the hotspot level, the mechanism has to be done on validators as that's where transaction validation is done - in CG (edited)
We seem to keep going in circles. I already commented on this. We can first establish a necessary means for such a mechanism. Then if that were to happen, it can pend implement once a committee was formed. Wouldn't you agree that this is The People's Network and not The Network of the Select Few? Are you opposed to the jury duty like committee idea? You may have valid reason, please help me to understand your view on this. There are some practical use applications that may apply to this HIP that haven't been addressed but may be a good solution.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 2:54 AM
I'm done lol
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Well I am sorry if these questions are difficult for you. I find it difficult being asked to hand over more power in a decentralized network to more centralized means. If you are unable to explain or justify this power shift, then I can't blindly support giving up my power as a hotspot owner and as being a community member nor would I expect anyone else to. This is your proposal and I am trying to understand it fully. If those proposing it don't fully understand it then who are we all to ask for clarity? (edited)
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Kiyotaka
Well I am sorry if these questions are difficult for you. I find it difficult being asked to hand over more power in a decentralized network to more centralized means. If you are unable to explain or justify this power shift, then I can't blindly support giving up my power as a hotspot owner and as being a community member nor would I expect anyone else to. This is your proposal and I am trying to understand it fully. If those proposing it don't fully understand it then who are we all to ask for clarity? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 3:07 AM
Your assertions are incorrect, you obvious have a bone to pick, and you're being rude and insulting. You play this game under the guise of "just asking questions and trying to do the right thing", but no one is fooled by your act. If you want to continue to troll, please do it elsewhere. The adults here will continue to work to make the network better for everyone, except trolls and cheaters.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your assertions are incorrect, you obvious have a bone to pick, and you're being rude and insulting. You play this game under the guise of "just asking questions and trying to do the right thing", but no one is fooled by your act. If you want to continue to troll, please do it elsewhere. The adults here will continue to work to make the network better for everyone, except trolls and cheaters.
I am asking valid questions all directly related to the impact this HIP can have. Some moderators may abuse power and create their own #rules and Helium may support such abuse but HIP proposals are clearly defined and EVERYONE has a right to be involved. You're just trying to avoid answering questions. You assume that I know all these answers but I am asking for clarity. Also, I am one person. There is a whole network of people that the answers to these questions could benefit. You cannot deny active participation and steer the conversation to avoid not having the answers to make informed decisions which are critical in network governance. If you don't have answers or understand it fully yourself, then just say so. Again, some may abuse power while others allow that abuse to take place, but what you're currently attempting to do is contrary to foundation of this network and the approved democratic process in place. #off-topic might be a better place to voice your frustration. Please keep responses related to the topic. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 3:28 AM
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Kiyotaka
I am asking valid questions all directly related to the impact this HIP can have. Some moderators may abuse power and create their own #rules and Helium may support such abuse but HIP proposals are clearly defined and EVERYONE has a right to be involved. You're just trying to avoid answering questions. You assume that I know all these answers but I am asking for clarity. Also, I am one person. There is a whole network of people that the answers to these questions could benefit. You cannot deny active participation and steer the conversation to avoid not having the answers to make informed decisions which are critical in network governance. If you don't have answers or understand it fully yourself, then just say so. Again, some may abuse power while others allow that abuse to take place, but what you're currently attempting to do is contrary to foundation of this network and the approved democratic process in place. #off-topic might be a better place to voice your frustration. Please keep responses related to the topic. (edited)
It would seem to me that you would benefit from just reading other questions and discussions for a few days as you just keep seeming to ask the same thing over and over again and not liking the current answers. Give it a break and see what other issues / solutions are discussed.
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waveform
It would seem to me that you would benefit from just reading other questions and discussions for a few days as you just keep seeming to ask the same thing over and over again and not liking the current answers. Give it a break and see what other issues / solutions are discussed.
No the question were not answered. Maybe to help simply things for everyone to better understand and follow they can be restructured in one post and answered in one post back. More power is being given to validators and there are others was to address this issue. Again, I'll post the github link as this is the process that should be taken place. We're being ask to discuss and vote on something. A clear understanding should be there. There is too much politics and assumptions. These are simple, related questions. Nothing has been done wrong, no rules have been broken. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. This is about facts behind the proposal, the impact it can have on the entire network, and more power being given to a group already with power in what is to be a decentralized network. In the discussion, other alternatives to implementing this was brought up and ignored. Again this is supposed to be The People's Network, not The Network of a Select Few. If someone doesn't agree with your ideas or opinions then you can ignore it if you choose but you're supposed to be a moderator. There is too much biased and collaborative agenda pushing. The rest of the network matters and all those within it. While you're free to have your opinion, this is still an approved diplomatic process and I will participate. (edited)
facepalm 3
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evan
any particular address needs to be unanimous
Are you saying its a unanimous vote by all the validators in a CG if a hotspot is denied? So if different validators run different lists (or no list) then different CGs could mean a hotspot could change deny status every election?
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waveform
Are you saying its a unanimous vote by all the validators in a CG if a hotspot is denied? So if different validators run different lists (or no list) then different CGs could mean a hotspot could change deny status every election?
That’s right. The hotspot in question would have to be on every consensus group members denylist in order for this to work. It makes sense, because in our consensus protocol transactions are encrypted until the final stage of the process
07:09
They could have different lists, but any given address would have to overlap with all members
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capcom
That’s right. The hotspot in question would have to be on every consensus group members denylist in order for this to work. It makes sense, because in our consensus protocol transactions are encrypted until the final stage of the process
But if validators had different lists then a hotspot could be denied for 30mins if a hotspot was on all the lists of a CG and then undenied for 30 mins if one of those CGs didnt have it on the list. And then go back on the deny list again. Just thinking of those who could ask "Its on the denylist I look at, why was it allowed to earn by witnessing that day?"
07:18
FYI anyone Im discussing Step 5 here on Hashcodes Steps to discuss https://discordapp.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/892846834412814376
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waveform
But if validators had different lists then a hotspot could be denied for 30mins if a hotspot was on all the lists of a CG and then undenied for 30 mins if one of those CGs didnt have it on the list. And then go back on the deny list again. Just thinking of those who could ask "Its on the denylist I look at, why was it allowed to earn by witnessing that day?"
Right. It could change almost every epoch if the validators are not unanimous
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It makes choosing your validator pool (if you’re not running your own) a political decision.
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The other way would be to do it as a chainvar then validators don’t really get to pick and choose
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07:32
I could see pros and cons there
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Would it be possible to lookup a validator to see if it is using a deny list if we don’t go the chainvar route or a way to query a validator to see if a particular hotspot is listed? I guess an lookup tool would benefit those that want to query if they are on a particular list.
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That’s interesting
07:51
I guess it could be exposed via the grpc protocol that will be used for light hotspots
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ap
Would it be possible to lookup a validator to see if it is using a deny list if we don’t go the chainvar route or a way to query a validator to see if a particular hotspot is listed? I guess an lookup tool would benefit those that want to query if they are on a particular list.
I was thinking about this too.. even though the txn would be allowed you should be able query the differences between the group right? If the lists they are subscribed too was gossiped via metadata... or similar. Would it make sense to penalize those who don't align with the majority? It require the validators to really think about what lists they want to subscribe too for sure.. could be a bigger deal if multi list support is implemented though (edited)
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Anthonyra
I was thinking about this too.. even though the txn would be allowed you should be able query the differences between the group right? If the lists they are subscribed too was gossiped via metadata... or similar. Would it make sense to penalize those who don't align with the majority? It require the validators to really think about what lists they want to subscribe too for sure.. could be a bigger deal if multi list support is implemented though (edited)
I’m not sure if I’d like going down the penalty route but I see what you mean if the consensus isn’t the majority then it would be away to sway the rest of the validators. I guess allowing a way to verify if a hotspot is on the list or subscribes to a particular list then this could be a way to measure the success of this HIP or this could fall into a separate one regarding governance of the selection criteria. Tell me if I’m talking crap. 😂
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Anthonyra
I was thinking about this too.. even though the txn would be allowed you should be able query the differences between the group right? If the lists they are subscribed too was gossiped via metadata... or similar. Would it make sense to penalize those who don't align with the majority? It require the validators to really think about what lists they want to subscribe too for sure.. could be a bigger deal if multi list support is implemented though (edited)
Isnt that saying we want 100% agreement between validators to deny a hotspot, but a validator is penalised if it doesnt agree with the majority of other validators, or have I got what you mean wrong?
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I could honestly hope that those running the validator would all agree if there's an issue but what if they don't ... we've already seen "lazy" validator operators for example almost 200 still haven't updated and it's 4 days away from the deadline that's my only concern. I want it to be an effective means to prevent further damages during absolutely detrimental acts towards the blockchain
08:27
That's why I'm all for a DeWi list for these situations and they can added any other lists they feel as worthy to pursue
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alternatively could you have the ban proportional to the pct consensus rather than unanimous ... ?
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stak_at
alternatively could you have the ban proportional to the pct consensus rather than unanimous ... ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 8:30 AM
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Doggywalker29 09/30/2021 8:37 AM
It might be interesting for each hotspot to have a penalty score that can be queried to see if it is nearing the penalty box.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 09/30/2021 8:40 AM
I like the lists being on a chainvar. The question is what is the mechanism for the community blessing lists that appear on the chainvar. And what protections are in place to ensure the lists themselves are not compromised by a malicious third party. Does there need to be a delay after a list is updated before it is accepted to provide ability for removal of compromised lists. Can lists be updated real time or is there a required cadence (e.g. weekly, daily).
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
I like the lists being on a chainvar. The question is what is the mechanism for the community blessing lists that appear on the chainvar. And what protections are in place to ensure the lists themselves are not compromised by a malicious third party. Does there need to be a delay after a list is updated before it is accepted to provide ability for removal of compromised lists. Can lists be updated real time or is there a required cadence (e.g. weekly, daily).
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 8:43 AM
In my initial thoughts and with talking to others were working on the idea of a committee that's elected and voted on, that would meet twice monthly/monthly to look at the floor and decide if action is needed to be taken, and then investigate hotspots (edited)
08:44
There's going to need to be a notice period for appeals as well, working with the assumption of 1 week at this stage (edited)
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 09/30/2021 8:46 AM
But what is that elected committee doing? Blessing lists based on how the list owners approach to how they are identifying candidate hotspots? Or actually reviewing everything on all the lists? That latter does not seem decentralized.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
But what is that elected committee doing? Blessing lists based on how the list owners approach to how they are identifying candidate hotspots? Or actually reviewing everything on all the lists? That latter does not seem decentralized.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 8:49 AM
Check the floor, investigate any hotspots on it and then vote if they want to include any of them in a deny list
08:49
I also think the floors not the best definition tho
08:49
Open to ideas
08:50
But it's important to note, there is no golden bullet here, gaming methods will change and adapt
08:50
Were only targeting 18 here with the floor, so it's a good start
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 09/30/2021 8:50 AM
Should the lists be on chain? With ability to update lists on chain following the oracle price model where blessed list making groups are given keys or update their list. Validators don’t start applying that updated list for 1 week…giving elected committee time to update an ignore list (and give warning) before the updated lists become effective.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 8:50 AM
But important we don't make that the only selection criteria going forward
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
I like the lists being on a chainvar. The question is what is the mechanism for the community blessing lists that appear on the chainvar. And what protections are in place to ensure the lists themselves are not compromised by a malicious third party. Does there need to be a delay after a list is updated before it is accepted to provide ability for removal of compromised lists. Can lists be updated real time or is there a required cadence (e.g. weekly, daily).
One problem with a chainvar is you’re always depending on helium Inc + foundation to have to sign new variables
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Anthonyra
I could honestly hope that those running the validator would all agree if there's an issue but what if they don't ... we've already seen "lazy" validator operators for example almost 200 still haven't updated and it's 4 days away from the deadline that's my only concern. I want it to be an effective means to prevent further damages during absolutely detrimental acts towards the blockchain
Well if they are punished for not having the DeWI list then they all have the same list and there is no point to having a unanimous CG as we know the outcome. And even if they are punished for not having any list then could just create a list with meerkat on it and its the same as not having a list. So - I cant go with any sort of punishment to a validator for not having a deny list.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 09/30/2021 8:53 AM
I think Validators should honor the lists that whatever group votes or blesses into the set of deny lists. The decentralized part should be the creation of lists and how those are then approved to be added to the blessed set.
08:53
That is still very decentralized.
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waveform
Well if they are punished for not having the DeWI list then they all have the same list and there is no point to having a unanimous CG as we know the outcome. And even if they are punished for not having any list then could just create a list with meerkat on it and its the same as not having a list. So - I cant go with any sort of punishment to a validator for not having a deny list.
Were you here for Modesto, Port Huron, or Meerkat? I believe my expectations for the DeWi list is also at a much higher standard than most might be thinking. The US has a list of individuals (countries) that pose significant threat to national security. I envision the DeWi one being just that. If the community notices an event that if left unchecked while a fix is being developed could lead to damages to the Blockchain or the economics of it they would land on that list. (edited)
08:56
If a third party want's to generate anti-gaming filters and measures that can be proven to be accurate to the point validators trust it we should allow those to be created also. The unanimous part would assist here since you won't have lists randomly denying hotspots for the list owners gains
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Anthonyra
If a third party want's to generate anti-gaming filters and measures that can be proven to be accurate to the point validators trust it we should allow those to be created also. The unanimous part would assist here since you won't have lists randomly denying hotspots for the list owners gains
Agreed with all that, i was just thinking in my head that if there is only one list, and validators are punished for not using it, there there is no point in them voting on it as they would all probably agree. So voiding the need for vote.
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I'd rather not penalize validators but I also don't want it to take months or weeks for it to be implemented it defeats the purpose of swift action in these scenarios
09:04
I think the quickest way to see if following the majority would be bad is to see what the average number of stakejoy validators get into CG at one time. With 600 validators they operate the biggest pool, they would indicate the likelihood of a "takeover" of the majority as of right now (edited)
09:05
Sadly I only see 1) having a default list which is committee ran (with multi list support) or 2) multi list support with penalties to those that don't agree with the majority. Ideally the lists can be different just we need to be able to tell if the list diverge at any point... I'd have to talk to evan but after a txn being accepted if the other validators could see if they would also agree as the gauge to divergents. It wouldn't prevent that txn from being added if it was. Just gauge overall consensus? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
In my initial thoughts and with talking to others were working on the idea of a committee that's elected and voted on, that would meet twice monthly/monthly to look at the floor and decide if action is needed to be taken, and then investigate hotspots (edited)
I really do like the idea of a committee. A jury duty like committee would be extremely beneficial to the network and the community. Personally, I am must more likely to support this with such. The list can be beneficial for multiple applications that fill holes in the network currently.
09:09
Not only that but this HIP would help build the foundation for future committees that could serve for a multitude of topics now and in the future as real world problems continue to challenge the network. (edited)
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EdB-charlietango 09/30/2021 9:17 AM
If unanimous implementation is required, we could possibly see that not all validators implement the denylist. How collaborative is the validator community? Do they have a space to speak with each other? It might be good to have a member or rotation of presence on the committee from the validator community. I'd love to hear more from those operating validators.
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Anthonyra
I think the quickest way to see if following the majority would be bad is to see what the average number of stakejoy validators get into CG at one time. With 600 validators they operate the biggest pool, they would indicate the likelihood of a "takeover" of the majority as of right now (edited)
I agree, a committee would help prevent such a "take over" and would help establish greater network integrity. The swiftness is a concern too because I agree there should be a way to stop the bleeding of situations. Whether that management is temporary or not, at the very least, it would be a preventative measure until further investigation and actions could be established.
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EdB-charlietango
If unanimous implementation is required, we could possibly see that not all validators implement the denylist. How collaborative is the validator community? Do they have a space to speak with each other? It might be good to have a member or rotation of presence on the committee from the validator community. I'd love to hear more from those operating validators.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 9:21 AM
I was discussion with Elon earlier about the possibility for having longer seats for most of the committee but having a small preportion that rotate quickly so there is openness to the whole thing
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EdB-charlietango 09/30/2021 9:21 AM
I do agree with @waveform - the end onus is on validators so they could override any committee.
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Not if you split it, create verticals that sit parallel to each other.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 9:22 AM
Sort of jury duty for a portion of it
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EdB-charlietango
If unanimous implementation is required, we could possibly see that not all validators implement the denylist. How collaborative is the validator community? Do they have a space to speak with each other? It might be good to have a member or rotation of presence on the committee from the validator community. I'd love to hear more from those operating validators.
I am pretty active in that community.. but sadly the majority of the “troublemakers” aren’t so vocal in the channel #validator-ops
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EdB-charlietango 09/30/2021 9:46 AM
Perhaps a comms push in that channel to drum up feedback on the HIP?
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EdB-charlietango
Perhaps a comms push in that channel to drum up feedback on the HIP?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/30/2021 9:48 AM
There's a new thread over there about overtaking currently, but yeah I think that sounds good :)
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There could be multiple deny lists validators could subscribe to and a validator could tweak the list if it decided. Each of these denylists they are subscribed to could come from different groups/AIs looking at different parameters for "cheating". Most if not all of the 2700+ validators have a deny list. But for each 43 member CG only if a hotspot appears on 43 denylists is it denied. If only 42 have a list, non get denied for that CG. I think this summarises jerm's comments.
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waveform
There could be multiple deny lists validators could subscribe to and a validator could tweak the list if it decided. Each of these denylists they are subscribed to could come from different groups/AIs looking at different parameters for "cheating". Most if not all of the 2700+ validators have a deny list. But for each 43 member CG only if a hotspot appears on 43 denylists is it denied. If only 42 have a list, non get denied for that CG. I think this summarises jerm's comments.
you'd get slightly better coverage than this: most spots are only going to report to 1/3+1 of the validators, so if 42/43 are banning them, they have a 1/3 chance of succeeding, especially if you do the shadowban tactic of reporting success and dropping the txn
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evan
you'd get slightly better coverage than this: most spots are only going to report to 1/3+1 of the validators, so if 42/43 are banning them, they have a 1/3 chance of succeeding, especially if you do the shadowban tactic of reporting success and dropping the txn
Thanks for confirmation (edited)
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For validation of location, if multiple radio signals are going out in all directions and these witnesses are witnessing a certain node. In theory it should be able to ascertain the nodes real location. Much like using reverse azimuth in artillery to pinpoint an enemies location. If enough validations come back that the node is in fact not in the correct location, you could auto ad them to an ignore list. Enough marks against the node and they can have their rewards diminished.
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Alvino
For validation of location, if multiple radio signals are going out in all directions and these witnesses are witnessing a certain node. In theory it should be able to ascertain the nodes real location. Much like using reverse azimuth in artillery to pinpoint an enemies location. If enough validations come back that the node is in fact not in the correct location, you could auto ad them to an ignore list. Enough marks against the node and they can have their rewards diminished.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 09/30/2021 12:19 PM
Unfortunately, if it were that simple, it would have been done a long time ago. 🙂
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Aron | HeliumHotShop.eu 10/01/2021 1:29 AM
Hi peeps! Can someone explain me how this is possible; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waqo9EZ2zqY Can something like this be "tackled" with HIP-40? Is this the perfect example of 'gaming' (edited)
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Aron | HeliumHotShop.eu
Hi peeps! Can someone explain me how this is possible; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waqo9EZ2zqY Can something like this be "tackled" with HIP-40? Is this the perfect example of 'gaming' (edited)
Discussed in #poc-discussion - this channel is about how to identify similar hotspots and what to do with them
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Aron | HeliumHotShop.eu
Hi peeps! Can someone explain me how this is possible; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waqo9EZ2zqY Can something like this be "tackled" with HIP-40? Is this the perfect example of 'gaming' (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/01/2021 2:00 AM
Yes, your right, these big earners that are gaming are exactly what this hips for
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Aron | HeliumHotShop.eu 10/01/2021 2:01 AM
Thanks
02:01
Ill read into it 🙂
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The deny of some hotspots is not in action as of the present day, correct?
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Inza-Onoa
The deny of some hotspots is not in action as of the present day, correct?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/01/2021 3:28 AM
Correct, nothing like this exists currently
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Thank you!
03:31
I am not sure if this question is supposed to be here or in other channel but: Is the hotspot name like "hot chili eagle" related to swarm key? Or is the name brought for out of other variables?
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Inza-Onoa
I am not sure if this question is supposed to be here or in other channel but: Is the hotspot name like "hot chili eagle" related to swarm key? Or is the name brought for out of other variables?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/01/2021 3:31 AM
animal-based hash digests for humans. Contribute to helium/angry-purple-tiger development by creating an account on GitHub.
03:32
It's based off the hash address, but yeah better asked in #questions-and-answers
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Thank you. Reason I asked here was because I was thinking if someone with old diy hotspot uses his legitime swarm key to try to to fake being another hotspot (like his hotspot acting like he's your hotspot) but with different settings or programs going on locally on his hotspot. If this is possible to do for him, would the currect propositions of "validator putting hotspots on denylist" put the cheater hotspot on the deny list or the hotspot he's trying to pretend to be? To prevent innocent hotspots being victim of this, I think its good to consider the above question. (edited)
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Inza-Onoa
Thank you. Reason I asked here was because I was thinking if someone with old diy hotspot uses his legitime swarm key to try to to fake being another hotspot (like his hotspot acting like he's your hotspot) but with different settings or programs going on locally on his hotspot. If this is possible to do for him, would the currect propositions of "validator putting hotspots on denylist" put the cheater hotspot on the deny list or the hotspot he's trying to pretend to be? To prevent innocent hotspots being victim of this, I think its good to consider the above question. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/01/2021 3:52 AM
It would go to the real owner tho not the hacker, keys are locked to wallets
03:52
He wouldn't proffit, just the legit owner doing that
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So if this HIP gets passed we’re going to drop any notion of this network being decentralized or permissionless, right?
06:39
The spoofing seems to be an impossible problem to solve without trusted third party
06:40
Why wouldn’t we just put in an earnings cap for LoRa hotspots? Or for PoC for a single hotspot? Are there actually legjt hotspots earning 30 coins a day at this point?
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dogofman
Why wouldn’t we just put in an earnings cap for LoRa hotspots? Or for PoC for a single hotspot? Are there actually legjt hotspots earning 30 coins a day at this point?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/01/2021 6:40 AM
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That would be quite the hack but at least you wouldn’t be essentially delegating to some centralized source to make a list of banned hotspots that all the validators consume unquestioningly
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Yeah, or even dumber that just completely borks gaming at the expense of the best set up hotspots. IMO this current HIP is too far at this point, and
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We could trust Fizzy with absolute power.
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True
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Fizzy
We could trust Fizzy with absolute power.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/01/2021 6:43 AM
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dogofman
Yeah, or even dumber that just completely borks gaming at the expense of the best set up hotspots. IMO this current HIP is too far at this point, and
Theoretically speaking what if tomorrow there's a hotspot that was being rewarded with 100 HNT an epoch... we figure out how they're doing it but the fix isn't "easy" it'll require months of development and weeks to prepare because there are some hotspots that aren't cheating that would be adversely affected if not notified correctly before the switch due to their configuration... what should be done? Wait the months at 4800HNT per day for the fix or have a means to prevent further damage to the blockchain? (edited)
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I mean, if the only alternative is to have a centralized third party in charge of which hotspots are good and which aren’t, having a hard and fast rule that caps earnings and limits the incentive to cheat is better
06:49
What I’m saying is you can either have a centralized third party identify cheaters (how this would remain uncorrupted is beyond me), or you can have heuristics that hurt cheaters the most and hurt the best hotspots second most
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dogofman
I mean, if the only alternative is to have a centralized third party in charge of which hotspots are good and which aren’t, having a hard and fast rule that caps earnings and limits the incentive to cheat is better
The issue is not knowing what the exploit will be. If we cap witness receipts that's great for the current situation but what if there's another arbitrage with DC to HNT? What if beacons can be exploited next? What if there's an issue with the 5G roll out? If we don't know the next enemy how can we adequately protect against them?
06:52
I honestly, hope we implement such a feature and we never have to use it! But if something happens well we have the ability to stop the bleeding in a way (edited)
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Hi all - trying to catch up on this. Question - has it been discussed/explored to have witnesses from denylist hotspots be dropped or marked invalid by the challenger versus having the consensus group enforce the list? like the chain gang has mentioned, it is much harder to get the CG to agree and invalidate these because transactions anonymous when they get to the CG
06:56
or maybe have the challengers not even select the denylist when issuing a challenge
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I mean I see what you’re saying but at that point you’re pretty much admitting PoC doesn’t work, at least not in a way that isn’t involving trusted third party
06:59
And why does something like this need a HIP, actually? What would stop a validator from doing this themselves, as long as other validators agree?
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PaulM
Hi all - trying to catch up on this. Question - has it been discussed/explored to have witnesses from denylist hotspots be dropped or marked invalid by the challenger versus having the consensus group enforce the list? like the chain gang has mentioned, it is much harder to get the CG to agree and invalidate these because transactions anonymous when they get to the CG
Yes, that’s actually the intentions of the poc witnessing scaling discussion. Which would be the actual fix for the current Clever Smoke Raven. This was offered as an option and kinda morphed to be more of a stopgate during the most serious and blatant situations. (edited)
07:04
Here's an interesting question, when it comes to the reward_v2 transaction. Is it just one CG member creating it or the entire group? (edited)
07:04
Because I know building a block from txns from hotspots only 1 CG member really validates each txn but... what about the txn create on the CG level?
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dogofman
I mean, if the only alternative is to have a centralized third party in charge of which hotspots are good and which aren’t, having a hard and fast rule that caps earnings and limits the incentive to cheat is better
You keep saying trusted third party - who are you talking about?
07:07
Requiring the unanimous consent of a permissionless group of validators doesn’t feel like a trusted third party by any reasonable measure
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capcom
Requiring the unanimous consent of a permissionless group of validators doesn’t feel like a trusted third party by any reasonable measure
I think they're referring to the list generation / approval itself..
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But that’s only half the story, if the validators don’t adopt it then nothing happens
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I agree, the list wouldn't matter if a validator choose not to do it.. but if all validators agreed on the trust level of a list I'd hope they'd be more than willing to use it
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capcom
You keep saying trusted third party - who are you talking about?
Some individual, or small group, will devise this list. Majority of validators will accept unquestioningly. That’s what I mean. Whether you want to call that a trusted third party or not is up for debate I guess. No more so than the current model of pushing software updates to hotspots
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So what’s the complaint exactly?
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Ducktator - Hexaspot.com 10/01/2021 7:20 AM
Oh, I like this HIP so far. Following 👀
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capcom
So what’s the complaint exactly?
How can you call it a permission-less, decentralized network when you have the situation I described above occurring?
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I think they were agreeing Fizzy is the trusted party.
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dogofman
How can you call it a permission-less, decentralized network when you have the situation I described above occurring?
Because I don’t agree with your definition of permissionless or decentralized perhaps? Was ethereum permissionless or decentralized when they decided to rollback the dao hack arbitrarily? Or when they decided to switch to PoS? The words are not binary and the meanings vary
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How would you define them then?
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dogofman
How can you call it a permission-less, decentralized network when you have the situation I described above occurring?
Also, I hope that if we can implement it in this manner that automating (making it more decentralized) in the future is the next step. Which is the end goal for Helium since they want to see their kid grow up to be independent adult that supports them in retirement 😅 (edited)
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This bit where the CG has to be unanimous agree on the denylist makes mean think that it is unlikely to work. What's the issue with having the challenger drop receipts from hotspots on the denylist? Only takes one for that to work.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Oh, only the future will make it clearer on how this will be done... step one is getting a working, may that be less ideal, mechanism first.. Step 1: Make your requirements less dumb. It doesn't matter who gave it to you. ... Step 2: Delete Part of the Process. ... Step 3: Simplify or Optimize. ... Step 4: Accelerate Cycle Time! ... Step 5: Automate. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
He wouldn't proffit, just the legit owner doing that
Okay! Cool!
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Carl-bot BOT 10/01/2021 10:18 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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PaulM
This bit where the CG has to be unanimous agree on the denylist makes mean think that it is unlikely to work. What's the issue with having the challenger drop receipts from hotspots on the denylist? Only takes one for that to work.
right, am i missing something about validators being penalized for not following the list ... otherwise as a bad actor i spin up a validator and exclude my devices.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
You just made 5 steps ... 9 steps...
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stak_at
right, am i missing something about validators being penalized for not following the list ... otherwise as a bad actor i spin up a validator and exclude my devices.
You need every validator in the consensus group to agree with you
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12:03
A single validator can’t do anything. Fault tolerance and all that
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capcom
You need every validator in the consensus group to agree with you
What's the issue with applying the denylist on witness receipts at the challenger versus in the CG? that would eliminate the need for unanimity by the CG. The reduction in rewards would be then proportional to the number of potential challengers that subscribe to a denylist with that hotspot in it.
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PaulM
What's the issue with applying the denylist on witness receipts at the challenger versus in the CG? that would eliminate the need for unanimity by the CG. The reduction in rewards would be then proportional to the number of potential challengers that subscribe to a denylist with that hotspot in it.
Could do it there for sure. I think part of the logic to have validators do it would be more choice and consensus occurs. Hotspot owners are really at the mercy of their vendors in terms of what software is run. Validators can decide what they want to run, although perhaps a similar argument in terms of validator companies
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Got it. Seems like the hurdle of unanimous agreement by the CG is going to be tough but good point on the software being out of the control of the hotspot owners. would need a way to specify a list for their hotspot to subscribe to. of course, that would be temporary until light hotspots.
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Right, exactly
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Again, what is the opposition to creating jury duty like committees to tackle these real life problems as they come up.
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Angry Pickle Bear 10/01/2021 12:29 PM
HIP-41 Helium Jury Duty
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Angry Pickle Bear
HIP-41 Helium Jury Duty
Helps increase community involvement and education. Keeps things decentralized, and it's inclusive.
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The opposition is that there isn’t a real proposal. Write one?
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But then I have to share my email on GitHub and I have too much stuff attached to it 😭
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I’m sure you’ll figure it out
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Indeed, I'll hit that 👍 when someone is so kind as to write it. They did a really good job with the writeup of 39.
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Kiyotaka
Again, what is the opposition to creating jury duty like committees to tackle these real life problems as they come up.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/01/2021 3:27 PM
There is already a jury duty mech being worked on. Elections to the jury pool every 6 months. Pool of 10. Each case that comes up for review/addition to the deny list gets 7 people randomly chosen from the jury pool.
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:06 PM
Reading some of the backscroll and saw a link to a proposal with hardened mapping devices. One thing I learned doing some work on a location based online game (not gonna say which one, NDA), is that you basically can never trust a client to tell you that the location is correct.
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16:06
We mostly worked around this by reworking the mechanics to make it less useful to spoof, but I'm not sure that's useful here.
16:07
The other fallback was taking a statistical approach, like has been proposed here. Only issue there is that it was hard to deal with false positives.
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Bobert McBob
Reading some of the backscroll and saw a link to a proposal with hardened mapping devices. One thing I learned doing some work on a location based online game (not gonna say which one, NDA), is that you basically can never trust a client to tell you that the location is correct.
yea, that's my general opinion as well. i'm not aware of any hardware manufacture who has done this well, even with unlimited budget
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:08 PM
Yeah, and especially with a bunch of money involved, it gets more likely that someone is gonna grab the keys.
16:09
I know someone who has access to a lab at work where they can take out most epoxy potting, because they're checking their own devices they sell.
16:09
It was expensive to set up, but not that expensive in the grand scheme of things.
16:09
I wish I had a solution to a zero-trust location assertion.
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it does make it harder to do it at scale, like it's time consuming to de-pot something
16:10
but certainly not impossible
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:10 PM
Yeah, it definitely does.
16:10
And that may be "good enough".
16:10
But if HNT really goes up in price, suddenly "good enough" may not actually be.
16:12
I wonder, we were targeting general smart phones, which frequently didn't have access to the raw RF, but during some testing with RF based GPS spoofers on phones that did have the RF metadata, we could pretty easily tell when it was happening.
16:12
Mostly because ephemeris predictions didn't always match the actual ephemeris, so we could detect minute shifts. (edited)
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yea, it's quite easy to see the gamers with rssi/snr analysis right now. the problem is as soon as you describe those rules in code they become easy to operate around
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:13 PM
Yep.
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so we just sort of watch people right now
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:14 PM
I didn't read all the backscroll, but how big is the actual problem?
16:14
I get that it'll only grow as Helium grows.
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one thing that's always intrigued me is something similar to what monero does, they hardfork the network periodically to change the hashing algorithm. primarily it was so that asic's couldn't be used. but i've always wondered if you just keep shifting the goalposts whether it causes enough chaos to make manufactured cheating harder
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:15 PM
Hmm, on the surface that actually sounds like a good idea.
16:15
But I wonder what sort of false positive rate you'll hit.
16:15
Because RF can be weird sometimes.
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yea, that's the hard part. you don't want to cause honest actors to also be part of the chaos too
16:16
but most of the gaming is extremely obvious statistically
16:16
even if the rewards are reasonable, the RF isn't
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:18 PM
Yeah. Though experience, from Niantic's first game Ingress, tells me that as soon as you get rid of the blatantly obvious stuff (in their case, make the app refuse to start if mock-location is on), then people just get more sohpisticated.
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for sure
16:18
really interesting to hear your experiences from the AR gaming world though, i've often wondered about how that was handled
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:19 PM
I wish we had more access to the underlying hardware, but we mostly had to work with a location with very little metadata and that was it.
16:20
Which was still pretty good, with a good enough dataset.
16:20
I suspect people were doing statistical analysis themselves of data they collected from legit play and using that to make things look legit.
16:20
But at that point, they're much less of an impact, versus teleporting all over the planet in seconds.
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it's not dissimilar to the situation today, we could actually do more interesting things with more raw data at the radio level. but even then, you put it in open source code and it's basically a playbook for how to work around it
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:21 PM
Yeah.
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the only way around that, i think, is to introduce a third party element that someone gaming can't control
16:21
like mappers sending data that they can't access, etc
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:21 PM
Everything I can think of requires either a centralized authority or an outside resource.
16:22
I know there are commercial companies that operate GPS observatories, which you can get a data feed of. And if you've got one in an area where you suspect cheating, it'll probably be obvious. But how is that paid for, etc?
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i dont think a CA is bad idea in this case. i've mentioned the filecoin example in the past - they had a similar problem where miners had figured out they could just store garbage and earn more mining rewards than it cost to store. so protocol labs introduced this idea of 'verified data', data with a certain hash that if miners stored would earn them more rewards. the verified part was very much centralized. im not sure if it worked well though, so it might not be a good example. i need to do more research. but you could imagine a similar scheme where only sensors sending verified data (could include location, somehow) allow you to earn poc rewards
16:24
you could include chain data that a cheater wouldn't know how to tamper with, the same way poc challenges work. they're effectively hidden until after the challenge
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:24 PM
Yeah, Filecoin's idea seems like a good one.
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i just wish we had more bandwidth to spend on this right now, we're trying to do some hiring
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:26 PM
I wonder if talking to Niantic might be enlightening, if they're willing to talk about their tech.
16:26
Though people playing the games don't always agree that it's working fine.
16:27
But they have a constraint that it needs to be real-time, and I guess Helium would have up to 30 minutes? to figure things out.
16:32
I guess long-term, the problem sort of sorts itself out.
16:32
As rewards move towards DC spend, it becomes harder to cheat, because if you aren't moving actual data, you aren't getting paid.
16:32
But that's what, 5 years out?
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capcom
i just wish we had more bandwidth to spend on this right now, we're trying to do some hiring
Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:34 PM
Is Helium Inc. still only hiring people in the US?
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Bobert McBob
Is Helium Inc. still only hiring people in the US?
Nope very open to location
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:36 PM
Well then, I happen to find myself in-between jobs right now.
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Where are you located?
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Bobert McBob 10/01/2021 4:38 PM
West Coast of Canada.
16:43
Canadian citizenship only.
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Would be open to it for sure. Pinging @hashc0de
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This would make Helium Centralized by the Validators. Basically those with money gets to stake and become validators, then they (about 2700 validators or 500 or less people who own them) get to ban hotspots. Do we really want the whole Helium network run by such a small minority? Bad idea! (edited)
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Keyrodeo
This would make Helium Centralized by the Validators. Basically those with money gets to stake and become validators, then they (about 2700 validators or 500 or less people who own them) get to ban hotspots. Do we really want the whole Helium network run by such a small minority? Bad idea! (edited)
This is all already true today. If all the validators decided to do this then that’s what would happen
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capcom
This is all already true today. If all the validators decided to do this then that’s what would happen
So it should be unanimous among these 500 or so owners of Validators. Still a very small number of people to control such a network as Helium
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Keyrodeo
So it should be unanimous among these 500 or so owners of Validators. Still a very small number of people to control such a network as Helium
Only point I’m making is that ship sailed with HIP25
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To my knowledge HIP 25 dosen't give so much power so as to kick hotspots out of the network? Imagine they decide to kick half the hotspots out... technically it would be possible (edited)
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If enough validators collude then they can do pretty much whatever they want
12:27
That’s why having a large consensus group is important
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Keyrodeo
To my knowledge HIP 25 dosen't give so much power so as to kick hotspots out of the network? Imagine they decide to kick half the hotspots out... technically it would be possible (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/02/2021 1:12 PM
Don't forget that validators have to live with the consequences too
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capcom
That’s why having a large consensus group is important
maco2035 🐮 10/02/2021 3:49 PM
So why make the validators only be only hosted at 10k?
15:49
In my best interest, validators would be 25k+. But I don't think it is fair to do that.
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This is one of the most interesting hip conversations I've followed in a while. Thank you Capcom and Bobert Ofcourse nothing should be rushed, but shouldn't this be one of high(est) priority? You can bet that the problem grows every day, I'm seeing Telegram chats being spammed with people trying to find out how to game, because if you can't beat them, join them. Really curious to find out when the next steps in this hip are taken.
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As was said earlier, if it's fairly easy to pinpoint a lot of the actual wrong-doers, put them on the blacklist asap. And if it's possible that some of the honest hotspots will also end up on this list, create an appeal process and make it function fast. I'd rather have one of my hotspots temporarily wrongly blacklisted due to some random unconventional values and in return seeing my overall average on my other hotspots grow. Than seeing every honest hotspot's rewards go down, and watch gamers earn lambos each month. I think it would be great to strike back at gamers asap, not just for earnings, but for showing the community ánd possible investors that action is being taken. As long as an appeal or fix for the wrongly blacklisted can be processed fast, as Bobert said, you'll probably cut out most of the more obvious ones, creating a big difference and making a strong statement to those contemplating gaming. (edited)
16:10
I do have to say I barely have any technical knowledge, so I'm not complaining or saying anything needs to be rushed, but I do think it is wise to give gamers the focus they unfortunately deserve, before the project suffers even more
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I do think in general the problem is not as large as people think. For example these mega hotspots are earning less than. 0.02% of the daily HNT. But perception matters
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capcom
I do think in general the problem is not as large as people think. For example these mega hotspots are earning less than. 0.02% of the daily HNT. But perception matters
maco2035 🐮 10/02/2021 6:23 PM
They should see some of the old ones, like Port Huron or Monsanto
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Here's a decent example...something seems off here. Not sure why this miner is only witnessing other miners 14km away to the East.
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Sōsuke
Here's a decent example...something seems off here. Not sure why this miner is only witnessing other miners 14km away to the East.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/02/2021 9:01 PM
Sorry, example of what?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sorry, example of what?
An example of a "wrong-doer" ralphoman was mentioned.
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Sōsuke
An example of a "wrong-doer" ralphoman was mentioned.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/02/2021 9:19 PM
This hotspot doesn't earn anything close to enough to trigger an investigation. Looks more like a high dbi directional antenna up high that is overshooting the closer hotspots. This HIP is a panic button to stop extreme cheats. (edited)
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Keyrodeo
This would make Helium Centralized by the Validators. Basically those with money gets to stake and become validators, then they (about 2700 validators or 500 or less people who own them) get to ban hotspots. Do we really want the whole Helium network run by such a small minority? Bad idea! (edited)
Validators already decide on who gets paid what as they do the PoC HNT payment calculations. So its already centralized and without that centralization the network would have ground to a halt. As capcom says - we need a bigger consensus group, and possibly more owners of validators - Im sure this will come.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This hotspot doesn't earn anything close to enough to trigger an investigation. Looks more like a high dbi directional antenna up high that is overshooting the closer hotspots. This HIP is a panic button to stop extreme cheats. (edited)
I live on an island in a rural area and the only way to earn anything is with an 8dbi antenna, which is now too powerful for poc v11 😩
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Yohov6
I live on an island in a rural area and the only way to earn anything is with an 8dbi antenna, which is now too powerful for poc v11 😩
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/03/2021 10:24 AM
It was always too powerful for your local laws. PoC11 will stop you from being rewarded for breaking the law.
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Keyrodeo
To my knowledge HIP 25 dosen't give so much power so as to kick hotspots out of the network? Imagine they decide to kick half the hotspots out... technically it would be possible (edited)
Technically they could kick off every hotspot, they validate the transactions…
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capcom
I do think in general the problem is not as large as people think. For example these mega hotspots are earning less than. 0.02% of the daily HNT. But perception matters
EdB-charlietango 10/03/2021 3:16 PM
Am I wrong that #hip-39-hnt-redenomination has received more attention? And it’s arguable about perception? Perhaps it’s perception now with 40 vs perception later with 39.
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Only because there was a vote and an @ here 😬
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EdB-charlietango 10/03/2021 3:18 PM
I am surprised how slow the community has reacted to this one. Have any of the YouTubers that called out the gaming even addressed that HIP40 is now in existence?
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EdB-charlietango
I am surprised how slow the community has reacted to this one. Have any of the YouTubers that called out the gaming even addressed that HIP40 is now in existence?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/03/2021 3:23 PM
'course not. Outrage drives clicks, not solutions. 😉
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15:23
To be fair, I did see one mention it in passing as a "I told you folks to do this months ago. Glad to see someone finally listened to me". lol
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EdB-charlietango 10/03/2021 3:30 PM
I mentioned it a couple of times in the live streams. No one was really engaged. I guess it’s YMMV. More people are interested in building the network out anyways. Strategizing for “season 2” of my channel. So far the major requests have been 1) Sensors, 2) 5G, and 3) off-grid. Nothing about gaming. Could keep it as a subsection in the live streams or occasionally give it mention. HIPs are pretty important… haven’t really covered them all that much so far. (edited)
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capcom
I do think in general the problem is not as large as people think. For example these mega hotspots are earning less than. 0.02% of the daily HNT. But perception matters
Agreed and I've said it many times before, the issues isn't as large as it seems in a broad view of the network. Once many of the current pre-sales come online, you'll naturally see a drop and the random hotspot selection will drive these numbers down naturally and then across the board you'll start to see better numbers.
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propelsiphon30 10/04/2021 6:04 AM
This guy needs to be denied
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06:04
10 helium a day is ridiculous I’m lucky if I get .50helium
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Deleted User 10/04/2021 7:43 AM
Well well well, if it isn't the Gestapo showing up.
facepalm 1
07:43
This is a perfect example why this denylist thing is a big mistake and completely unnecessary.
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Deleted User
This is a perfect example why this denylist thing is a big mistake and completely unnecessary.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/04/2021 8:04 AM
So just let the gamers prosper instead? Care to add how you'd deal with it?
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Angry Pickle Bear 10/04/2021 8:05 AM
hey long time no squirrel
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Deleted User
Well well well, if it isn't the Gestapo showing up.
EdB-charlietango 10/04/2021 8:08 AM
Do you intend to compare this to an avenue for committing genocide? Because I'm having trouble taking anything further you have to say as constructive.
08:09
It's very simple. Vote in support of the HIP, vote against it, or suggest changes to make it better.
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Deleted User 10/04/2021 8:42 AM
This person is making more than me, therefore ban them - yeah that's not gonna work. The same argument floated when we had clusters in Michigan, Modesto etc. They were dealt with in a manner that doesn't involve centralization.
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08:44
Quoting Capcom "I do think in general the problem is not as large as people think. For example these mega hotspots are earning less than 0.02% of the daily HNT."
08:44
And no, I do not have a suggestion that's better. I just disagree with this approach.
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For now yes it’s a small %, but you can bet on it the people who use it will grow fast like mentioned before a lot off people are trying to find out how this is possible and then it spreads very fast
08:47
In my opinion if we don’t do anything against it it wil grow fast other people will see there is no action taken so why not join them and then the problem will grow fast
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it never goes like this, not since the very start of the network
08:48
but it's still important to have some backstop, imo
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Deleted User 10/04/2021 8:49 AM
Banning people doesn't fix the problem, we saw that with Meerkat.
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Deleted User
Banning people doesn't fix the problem, we saw that with Meerkat.
Seem like your gaming or spoofing lol
08:51
It's the best hip ever and for now all upvotes and will pass If your cheating then RIP (edited)
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Deleted User 10/04/2021 8:52 AM
This is exactly my point. So absurd
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EdB-charlietango 10/04/2021 9:22 AM
I think it's at a minimum a worthwhile experiment to see how fast they replicate the exploit. I still agree with having an expiration on each miner so they come off the list.
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Deleted User
Banning people doesn't fix the problem, we saw that with Meerkat.
It doesn’t fix it but it encourage people to doo so, for now people are looking in to it to get the same exploit as the other people who use it, when they see the one who uses the exploit get banned/blacklisted it will help to not let them use it
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EdB-charlietango 10/04/2021 10:04 AM
People are also still waiting for their first miners. Any stacking we can help for them is worth it in my mind.
10:04
What are our outstanding issues @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io … just who is on the committee? What else?
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EdB-charlietango
People are also still waiting for their first miners. Any stacking we can help for them is worth it in my mind.
Sadly I am one of those guys🤣 nebra still didn’t deliver but he thats another point
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10:08
In my eyes it’s simple if there is no action against this behavior involving the helium project, then a lot off people wil find out and Do the same especially people who are waiting for ages on there hotspots
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EdB-charlietango
What are our outstanding issues @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io … just who is on the committee? What else?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/04/2021 10:09 AM
theres quite a lot of good ideas being brought to me about suggested changes, I'm pulling them together, its been a busy few days (edited)
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I don’t got the knowledge to do this kind of exploit, BUT if I had the knowledge and there is nothing taken against it I would deff be one off the guys who would use it
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the technique being used that spawned this HIP is not a new one, but yet there are not a lot of copycats. Helium has done a pretty solid job at limiting gaming by adapting PoC and other things to combat it. This HIP only makes sense for the extremely egregious hotspots which will be an extremely small number of hotspots that ultimately will also impact legitimate hotspot earnings by like 0.000001% at best. It's good for perception of the network though...unless a legitimate setup gets banned (which will always be a possibility)
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Wait so PoC 11 will block you from using any antenna that is outside the laws but where can I find these laws?
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BadGuyTy
Wait so PoC 11 will block you from using any antenna that is outside the laws but where can I find these laws?
Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 10/04/2021 11:33 AM
Online. You can use Google 🤓
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BadGuyTy
Wait so PoC 11 will block you from using any antenna that is outside the laws but where can I find these laws?
also nothing gets blocked, and also what does this have to do with HIP40?
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capcom
also nothing gets blocked, and also what does this have to do with HIP40?
not sure someone said something up earlier and I hadn't folloewed well
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BadGuyTy
not sure someone said something up earlier and I hadn't folloewed well
Well this has nothing to do with antennas or so that’s a convo in PoC discussion of antennas
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Tactical Investing-ThisIsHUGE 10/04/2021 2:52 PM
Love to this this! I have a passion for this project and being able to see Helium diligently working to fix issues regarding those gaming the system gives me so much confidence in this project! Just wanted to share and give a big shoutout to the team!
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Tactical Investing-ThisIsHUGE
Love to this this! I have a passion for this project and being able to see Helium diligently working to fix issues regarding those gaming the system gives me so much confidence in this project! Just wanted to share and give a big shoutout to the team!
Angry Pickle Bear 10/04/2021 4:16 PM
This is actually a community-driven proposed change, so if you or any of your viewers have opinions or thoughts on it or want to support/oppose it, make sure to make your opinion known here but also in the monthly #foundation community Zoom call events. If anyone has ideas that they'd rather see, that can be introduced as an alternative or competing proposal through the Helium Improvement Proposal process in the same way this one was as well. 💪 https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0007-managing-hip-process.md (edited)
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16:18
The more participation and discussion, the better for these things.
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Goofy Pseudonym 10/04/2021 4:21 PM
Some (or maybe one in particular) of these gamers should maybe be invited to join the dev team. I'd rather have him working for us than against us. Some real talent out there. (edited)
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Deleted User
This person is making more than me, therefore ban them - yeah that's not gonna work. The same argument floated when we had clusters in Michigan, Modesto etc. They were dealt with in a manner that doesn't involve centralization.
The person has zero witnesses. That's an odd thing to defend.
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wYoda
The person has zero witnesses. That's an odd thing to defend.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/04/2021 5:48 PM
Sweet name and image 😄
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sweet name and image 😄
Thanks but I keep meaning to change it. Pretty unoriginal. Feels like I committed theft. [BELCH]
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EdB-charlietango
It's very simple. Vote in support of the HIP, vote against it, or suggest changes to make it better.
Is there a place for regular hotspot owners to vote? Is it a Dewi vote? How cans I vote
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Marvelous
Is there a place for regular hotspot owners to vote? Is it a Dewi vote? How cans I vote
EdB-charlietango 10/04/2021 8:38 PM
There hasn’t been a straw poll yet. But I believe it’s during the DeWi calls.
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Heefi🃏 (MegaMillions) 10/04/2021 9:18 PM
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EdB-charlietango
There hasn’t been a straw poll yet. But I believe it’s during the DeWi calls.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/04/2021 10:29 PM
The straw poll is actually typically in the channel for the hip :) (edited)
22:29
Like the hip39 poll a few days ago.
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How do we speed up the implementation of this one? Any way to force a vote next call?
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Anunnaaki
How do we speed up the implementation of this one? Any way to force a vote next call?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 7:06 AM
it needs way more defining before a votes called
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07:07
I've had lots of great feedback I'm pulling together to update the HIP
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let me know when it's updated, and I can provide some technical details
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 11:50 AM
Who decides which denylist PR's to accept or reject? we can have a group of experienced users but chosen randomly group of 14 2- from each continent. Do hotspots earn challengee rewards? no and if its possible to deny them all rights even if we can put them offline completely, as china is full of relayed hotspots where they make money but when the send a challenge ur beacon is worthless cuz of the relayed so useless on both sides. How often is the deny list updated? Well since their intention is spoofing gaming cheating they can go away for 2-4 weeks. How often is this list checked for hotspots returning to normal function, and removal, or is this only done via an appeal process? Appeal wont help since not all use discord and most of them will complain to their manufacture so a lot of headache and again 90% are in china so language barrier too, so after a month the committee gathers monthly and sees if they are still doing what they are or placed as they are and based on that extends or removes it. Does this committee have the power to choose hotspots out of the scope of this floor on earnings, as an emergency procedure? yes and they publish it of course and if possible provide a reason this also includes spoofing even if not gaining any hnt right ? thanks @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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5KY- Evolver
Who decides which denylist PR's to accept or reject? we can have a group of experienced users but chosen randomly group of 14 2- from each continent. Do hotspots earn challengee rewards? no and if its possible to deny them all rights even if we can put them offline completely, as china is full of relayed hotspots where they make money but when the send a challenge ur beacon is worthless cuz of the relayed so useless on both sides. How often is the deny list updated? Well since their intention is spoofing gaming cheating they can go away for 2-4 weeks. How often is this list checked for hotspots returning to normal function, and removal, or is this only done via an appeal process? Appeal wont help since not all use discord and most of them will complain to their manufacture so a lot of headache and again 90% are in china so language barrier too, so after a month the committee gathers monthly and sees if they are still doing what they are or placed as they are and based on that extends or removes it. Does this committee have the power to choose hotspots out of the scope of this floor on earnings, as an emergency procedure? yes and they publish it of course and if possible provide a reason this also includes spoofing even if not gaining any hnt right ? thanks @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 11:51 AM
this is for the worst of the worst, not every last bit of gaming
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 11:52 AM
ok but since you are doing it why not include them ?
11:52
since they are spoofing anyway
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5KY- Evolver
since they are spoofing anyway
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 11:55 AM
There are other measures that will be in place that will be far more efficient than a manual review process. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are other measures that will be in place that will be far more efficient than a manual review process. 🙂
5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 11:57 AM
until that process we can do it for the ones that are very obvious you dont need more than 2 minutes to locate them
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5KY- Evolver
until that process we can do it for the ones that are very obvious you dont need more than 2 minutes to locate them
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 11:59 AM
I think you underestimate the time 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I think you underestimate the time 😉
5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:00 PM
well yeah might be true but its once a month
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5KY- Evolver
well yeah might be true but its once a month
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 12:01 PM
Yeah, but still... Once you start including more than just the worst of the worst, the list balloons very quickly. 😉
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:01 PM
banning 10 hs from ETL can be done by anyone they dont effect the system i dont understand why they are even targeted 2000 hnt gone WAUW. others are spoofing location not providing anything
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 12:01 PM
Besides, this is just a panic button for the crazy bad ones. It's not built to grab every gamer.
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:01 PM
why not every gamer (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 12:02 PM
Because it's a manual process.
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:02 PM
like thats the problem why not time believe me it takes 2 hours ? a month believe all have it to ban those users
12:02
yes great
12:02
you dont need to look far bro
12:02
90% in china
12:03
why not do anything about it i dont get it since its a black list
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 12:03 PM
And there are other automatic processes in the works that take care of them much better.
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:03 PM
its been a year at least 😄
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5KY- Evolver
90% in china
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:03 PM
It's really not
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 12:03 PM
Please do not use "blacklist" as it's a racist term. 🙂 Denylist 🙂
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:03 PM
lol
12:04
hahahaha ur kidding me right
12:04
who was racist ?
12:04
who is even talking about race
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5KY- Evolver
hahahaha ur kidding me right
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 12:04 PM
Not at all. FB uses "blocklist and allowlist" these days because of it. 🙂
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:05 PM
well i choose my words its an english word means the same as you mention i am not facebook
12:05
so yeah @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io is it possible to add them or not
12:05
if needed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:05 PM
Again, this is for the worst of the worst not all gaming
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:06 PM
so 10-20 users thats it right ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:06 PM
There are other hips to address PoC that are much better at stopping general gaming
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5KY- Evolver
so 10-20 users thats it right ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:06 PM
No
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:06 PM
are there more than 20-30 earning more than 10-20 a day
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5KY- Evolver
are there more than 20-30 earning more than 10-20 a day
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/05/2021 12:07 PM
Cites?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:08 PM
The ideas moving to a commitee that can vote on which lists are selected with the first of its kind being something the committee manage. One of the important things is if you define what is classed as gaming, the methods used will change
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:09 PM
this is not enough ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:09 PM
The committee need the powers to select and investigate any major hacks and vote on what lists to use rather than just select what's worthy for them to look at by q floor
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:09 PM
small 10k bro
12:09
not a lot
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5KY- Evolver
this is not enough ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:10 PM
No, that's a graphic, what proof do you have they are?
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:10 PM
what proof do i have they are spoofing you mean ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:10 PM
Yeah
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5KY- Evolver
this is not enough ?
Only if some guy makes a YouTube video about it
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:11 PM
what do you mean video ? u really think this is legit ?
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5KY- Evolver
what do you mean video ? u really think this is legit ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 12:12 PM
So if I got a picture of your hotspots off explorer and said it wasn't legit, is that enough proof? (edited)
12:13
#hip-22-diy-concentrators and the secure mappers would do a much better job than accusations and a board subjected to having to examine every last spoofing claim
12:14
he carved his name 😄
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The ideas moving to a commitee that can vote on which lists are selected with the first of its kind being something the committee manage. One of the important things is if you define what is classed as gaming, the methods used will change
Obviously gaming is when someone else's miner is performing better than your own.
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:21 PM
or when someone is not providing any coverage
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true
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5KY- Evolver
Who decides which denylist PR's to accept or reject? we can have a group of experienced users but chosen randomly group of 14 2- from each continent. Do hotspots earn challengee rewards? no and if its possible to deny them all rights even if we can put them offline completely, as china is full of relayed hotspots where they make money but when the send a challenge ur beacon is worthless cuz of the relayed so useless on both sides. How often is the deny list updated? Well since their intention is spoofing gaming cheating they can go away for 2-4 weeks. How often is this list checked for hotspots returning to normal function, and removal, or is this only done via an appeal process? Appeal wont help since not all use discord and most of them will complain to their manufacture so a lot of headache and again 90% are in china so language barrier too, so after a month the committee gathers monthly and sees if they are still doing what they are or placed as they are and based on that extends or removes it. Does this committee have the power to choose hotspots out of the scope of this floor on earnings, as an emergency procedure? yes and they publish it of course and if possible provide a reason this also includes spoofing even if not gaining any hnt right ? thanks @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
ProfiGembler 10/05/2021 12:49 PM
did I understood u correctly that u want to shut off relayed hotspots? 😀
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 12:51 PM
no the ones that are spoofing and relayed sir
12:52
you know the ones that are making hearts to their GF on helium map and mine hnt 😄 and same time relayed so useless for all
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5KY- Evolver
you know the ones that are making hearts to their GF on helium map and mine hnt 😄 and same time relayed so useless for all
ProfiGembler 10/05/2021 1:02 PM
well,they suck at cheating...all of them would earn more if they were on real locations,so a lot of people who are saying "china steals my rewards" are actually wrong...Im much more concerned about this guy who is banging 20hnt per day,cause he started selling his miners and teaching others how to do it for hnt...10 of those arent big deal,but 50...200...1000?
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 1:07 PM
the point is to stop spoofing for all in the end and if we can start with the ones that are spoofing and obviously, if there is a method for what he is doing denying him will not change anything he can buy 10 hs and do it all over again
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5KY- Evolver
the point is to stop spoofing for all in the end and if we can start with the ones that are spoofing and obviously, if there is a method for what he is doing denying him will not change anything he can buy 10 hs and do it all over again
ProfiGembler 10/05/2021 1:12 PM
well denylist was proposed just as quick fix,until real code is prepared and applied to stop that kind of behavior...
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ProfiGembler
well denylist was proposed just as quick fix,until real code is prepared and applied to stop that kind of behavior...
5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 1:13 PM
great lets use it against all since its there until there is a fix.
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13:13
or is that wrong
13:14
or suddenly spoofing HS made out of perfect amazing names in chinese needs more proof 😄
13:15
if i see 1 person with 50 hs in town in the mountains all placed perfect thats spoofing and enough to get banned if there is a will
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5KY- Evolver
or is that wrong
ProfiGembler 10/05/2021 1:17 PM
it needs more work...as u could harm honest miners if u just go with that logic...I mean,we all know they r doing it,but what if strange shape appears somewhere else where are true locations...just because the cloud can look like a dog,doesnt mean its fake 😀
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5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 1:18 PM
great than but yeah again overlooking has been done since a year so no need to even push it anymore i guess
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tbh even the 10 or so hotspots that spawned this HIP are not really provably cheating. It is fairly obvious to the human eye since it is witnessing at such a high rate, but as cap has said, if you had a legitimate setup with 10 or so perfectly placed tower/high elevation near and around decent density, you could earn the same legitimately. Analyzing the data to a level of depth that is required for a group to be 99.9% certain it is cheating takes a lot of time
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Radrob
tbh even the 10 or so hotspots that spawned this HIP are not really provably cheating. It is fairly obvious to the human eye since it is witnessing at such a high rate, but as cap has said, if you had a legitimate setup with 10 or so perfectly placed tower/high elevation near and around decent density, you could earn the same legitimately. Analyzing the data to a level of depth that is required for a group to be 99.9% certain it is cheating takes a lot of time
5KY- Evolver 10/05/2021 2:16 PM
as you said 10-20 lets go 50 hs are cheating taking away as cap said 0.02 or something from the big picture, but imagine the big ones the clusters that are cheating with 40+ devices spoofing not doing anything all relayed all spoofed we let those cz helium will fix those. with CODES
14:17
if we have a hip to at least at least have them punished than its enough i think its the best hip out of all hips i dont know why no one is even interested CAP can you @ here too ? i noticed where cap is goes the crowd even with hips
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Whenever the author is ready to vote I’m happy to draw some attention
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/05/2021 4:16 PM
I need a day or so for changes, which I'll submit tomorrow for folks to mull over (edited)
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i am not sure it's suitable here. My city today showing up around miners.
02:01
02:01
02:02
all of them belongs to fewer wallet one or two
02:03
they also put on incredible place. military camp, airport runway and so on
02:04
02:04
02:05
all of them is set around 8:00am
02:05
02:05
02:06
distance between miner around 1km
02:06
is impossible
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still not taken into action this hip?
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maybe cheating could be acceptable
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 4:17 AM
how do we all feel about decay to denies? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
how do we all feel about decay to denies? (edited)
EdB-charlietango 10/06/2021 6:24 AM
I support this. Seems like a monthly cadence would be appropriate? Perhaps just as a suggestion to start.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
how do we all feel about decay to denies? (edited)
Angry Pickle Bear 10/06/2021 6:43 AM
yes, if denylist should only be a temporary measure, so it should decay or expire, IMO
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Angry Pickle Bear
yes, if denylist should only be a temporary measure, so it should decay or expire, IMO
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 6:44 AM
decay or auto removal?
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EdB-charlietango 10/06/2021 6:51 AM
So decay would imply some effect to the earnings to come back, right? I think just auto-remove would be fine. We could comment them out so the committee could add them back in quickly. But if it's commented out and not "renewed", then probably just get dropped entirely from the file as the history of additions/deletions are in the repo. (edited)
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Angry Pickle Bear 10/06/2021 6:56 AM
leaning towards auto-removal, it's more psychologically urgent than a gradual decay (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 7:09 AM
what do we think about deny lengths? (edited)
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EdB-charlietango 10/06/2021 7:22 AM
Minimum 2 weeks. Would prefer a month for starters. Or mix it. 2 weeks to start, just in case proof appears they're not gaming, then we can go a month from there at a time.
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Angry Pickle Bear 10/06/2021 7:33 AM
it should heavily consider the length of time needed to patch vulnerabilities or pass and implement HIPs (edited)
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Angry Pickle Bear
it should heavily consider the length of time needed to patch vulnerabilities or pass and implement HIPs (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 7:34 AM
My gut tells me 2 weeks is too short, maybe a month or 2?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
My gut tells me 2 weeks is too short, maybe a month or 2?
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 7:53 AM
lets try with 50 000 blocks? its nice round number 😀 and its roughly 35days ...I think anything bellow one month will not have bigger impact on these guys...
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Doggywalker29 10/06/2021 7:53 AM
1 month minimum make it painful as a deterrent plus simple. Anything less is too much churn and work to manage.
07:54
Blocks is better if removal is automated.
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YTLin
i am not sure it's suitable here. My city today showing up around miners.
Guys can we stop with the screenshots. It never gets whatever point you’re trying to make across and completely wipes out the ability to read the channel. Also this is a HIP discussion channel not a place for reporting hotspots
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ProfiGembler
lets try with 50 000 blocks? its nice round number 😀 and its roughly 35days ...I think anything bellow one month will not have bigger impact on these guys...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 8:02 AM
blocks is an interesting one, my concern with decay/removal is other lists and how that decay/auto removal is done. i really need a technical chat with evan i think!
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Blocks not clocks is the best route in my opinion if technically possible.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
blocks is an interesting one, my concern with decay/removal is other lists and how that decay/auto removal is done. i really need a technical chat with evan i think!
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 8:30 AM
yeah, we cant help u with that 😀
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5KY- Evolver 10/06/2021 8:41 AM
50k blocks is fine or 1 months if manually
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Angry Pickle Bear 10/06/2021 8:42 AM
If you need to make it a weird non-round number, go for it IMO.
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08:43
No need to base our future systems off of the fact that somewhere a long, long time ago a fish crawled out of the ocean with 5 digits on each limb.
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08:44
65536 blocks would be about 45 days
08:48
Don't get me wrong, mad respect to that fish, though. 🤘
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Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 9:46 AM
As it’s currently written, will this affect 17-18 hotspots?
09:51
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io’s list has 32 on it today
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Max - Just Max
As it’s currently written, will this affect 17-18 hotspots?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 9:51 AM
The rewrite focuses on the committee, the powers and the process, I think the floor was too short sighted
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The rewrite focuses on the committee, the powers and the process, I think the floor was too short sighted
Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 9:53 AM
Agreed on the floor. Best hotspots earn a bigger multiple of the average as more hotspots get put in first floor apartments in Chicago or the “what if I put hotspots inside of jukeboxes and ATMs” people finally get their hotspots.
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Ban their accounts for eternity, spots im lookin at gaming in chicago area are makin 40cooins a day, they will pop back up and rake until stopped again …
09:54
Nuke
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SPASBLITZ
Ban their accounts for eternity, spots im lookin at gaming in chicago area are makin 40cooins a day, they will pop back up and rake until stopped again …
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 9:54 AM
There for sure is some urgency to get this through, it doesn't account for a lot of lost earnings in total but the perception is bad for the network
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If we make it 50k blocks, they are back at 50001
09:56
If it doesn’t get priority to get fixed, then you have to look INTERNALLY for culprits
09:56
This is really poppin my helium balloon
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It all depends on how long it takes before they get suspended again. If after 1 day it's clear that they are continuing their business and thus get suspended, they are only online for 1 day and suspended for the suggested 45
09:57
As @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pointed out, it does give most of us a bad taste, but their earnings do not make "the good ones" earn waaaay less I believe (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 9:57 AM
Yep, I'm asking for some technical help understanding how quickly this denylist could react to issues and how long/difficult it would be
09:58
I'm keen to see if we do remove a deny, how quickly could it be renabled if it just starts again straight away (edited)
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Maybe the offender could be on some kind of special list. The known-offender list or something, which gets some extra attention?
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Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 10:01 AM
Can I ask a somewhat off topic question?
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Why the wimpy list nonsense, seek and destroy permanently
10:03
If someone steals your car do they get wrist slapped? 10k a mo they are STEALING from us
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I kinda agree with you @SPASBLITZ . I'm just not a fan of "forever". Those hotspots would just become paperweights than, and with the current chip-shortage that doesn't feel right
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Ashwin
I kinda agree with you @SPASBLITZ . I'm just not a fan of "forever". Those hotspots would just become paperweights than, and with the current chip-shortage that doesn't feel right
PERFECT
10:04
ill buy it from offender for 20bucks and display prominently as paperweight
10:05
NETWORK has PLENTY of legit miners
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Max - Just Max
Can I ask a somewhat off topic question?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:05 AM
Sure?
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Do not agree. No worldwide coverage, so not enough
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Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 10:05 AM
It seems like the dev team has the bandwidth to code all of these HIPs all of a sudden, was there a massive hiring or something?
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Then ash someone should check YOUR shit imo
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What do you mean by "my shit"?
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SPASBLITZ
Then ash someone should check YOUR shit imo
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:06 AM
Please keep it hip40 related, and don't attack other members
10:06
I get your upset about the issue but that doesn't help anyone
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Imagine every time a car gets stolen, it can be remotely be disabled, so it can never drive again. I don't think I would agree with that. Extending the suspension to a longer time would be totally fine by me, just not forever. Nothing is forever (except diamonds, according to mr. Bond)
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Well how is letting scammers be ok w days n blocks suspension not suspicious? Seriously, in defense of all honest miners, how is this ok?
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Max - Just Max
It seems like the dev team has the bandwidth to code all of these HIPs all of a sudden, was there a massive hiring or something?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:08 AM
Good question and one I can't answer
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It is DOOM for all of us letting them pop up and doen creating new accts etc…
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:08 AM
I know hip40 they said isn't much work
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Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 10:08 AM
I’ve seen plenty of HIPs (specifically 24 and 37) that would help drive investment into the network that simply don’t have the ability to be coded
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I know hip40 they said isn't much work
Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 10:09 AM
Maybe that’s it. This and redom are just easier to code
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SPASBLITZ
It is DOOM for all of us letting them pop up and doen creating new accts etc…
I don't think there is any way we can guarantee that they won't just create a new wallet with a new hotspot. Either with a denylist or a lifetime-ban for the hotspot that commited the gaming
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Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 10:09 AM
Not against this one at all. Just questioning if 1 guy with 18 hotspots stealing .02% of the HNT is our top priority
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I just do not see what benefit it would bring to brick devices, as it's not part of the solution
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Max - Just Max
Not against this one at all. Just questioning if 1 guy with 18 hotspots stealing .02% of the HNT is our top priority
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:10 AM
Its something that always gets bought up, so rather than keep up the usual circles something got put into action
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Max - Just Max
Not against this one at all. Just questioning if 1 guy with 18 hotspots stealing .02% of the HNT is our top priority
I think it's about the feeling this gives. People are actually stealing from the good ones
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Hitler was one guy….
🤦‍♂️ 1
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I think you can't compare 0,02% HNT to millions of lives
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1 guy is all it takes to do major dmg is point
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Not sure about the percentage by the way, just repeating Max's number
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if we do nothing… it WILL get worse
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I agree, 1 person can do a lot of harm. But I still do not see why you would brick the devices for eternity. The bad guys will just buy new devices, as they've got enough money for that
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what technically is occurring? Are they inserting false transactions into blocks?
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No idea to be honest
10:15
I guess if we find out how they do it we won't be discussing suspending/banning them, but just fix it in the code
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Why a deny list. I would like to see some bricked units for spoofing that can be done through firmware.
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gaming has been going on since day 1 in some form and will continue on forever. You cannot eliminate all gaming. That being said gaming levels are much lower now then they were in the past. The current scheme does seem extremely profitable and needs something to hold it at bay (hence this HIP), but even the current scheme is not provably cheating in a system sense...it just doesn't pass the eye test. Even with this HIP active and working, no one should expect a hotspot to be banned/denied immediately after someone reports it
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Ashwin
I agree, 1 person can do a lot of harm. But I still do not see why you would brick the devices for eternity. The bad guys will just buy new devices, as they've got enough money for that
And those new units can again get bricked.
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bricking units doesn't make sense when they can be sold/transfered. Stop the gamer and let them sell to a legitimate miner
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I'm not sure what you mean @Radrob . If a device is actually bricked, selling/transfering shouldn't unbrick it
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Ashwin
I'm not sure what you mean @Radrob . If a device is actually bricked, selling/transfering shouldn't unbrick it
im saying not to brick them...thats a waste of resources
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Why again reward them by allow them to sell the miner. There are plenty of manufacturers to get miners out there.
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Ideally you would just block the wallet, but as it's quite easy to get a new one I don't think that would do much
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Radrob
im saying not to brick them...thats a waste of resources
We have electronic recylers in this neck of the woods.
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because its completely wasteful
10:19
when hotspots are still on backorder everywhere
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Agreed
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and we need millions of these to be successful
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Radrob
im saying not to brick them...thats a waste of resources
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:19 AM
I'm not sure how I feel, I mean how many hotspots are we talking here? It's obviously used too much if it's a large number
10:19
And then what say 50/220k
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Look guys. City in CA is on board, lights are gonna shine on this stuff soon, and the ship will slowly sink when channel 5 shows news of helium miner scammers
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:20 AM
Would be bricked as such (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'm not sure how I feel, I mean how many hotspots are we talking here? It's obviously used too much if it's a large number
fairpoint the numbers should be low, but still seems like a waste for no real benefit
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Radrob
and we need millions of these to be successful
And is the network wants to be succesfull a more controlled growth would help. losing those bricked miners would send a message to anyone else who tries to game the system.
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Radrob
fairpoint the numbers should be low, but still seems like a waste for no real benefit
Exactly my point. They would just grab a new one from the shelf and restart
10:21
So why not brick them for 6 months or something. In the end it would be the same, as long as we or the netwerk can figure out who the gamers are fast enough (edited)
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Ashwin
Exactly my point. They would just grab a new one from the shelf and restart
And get bricked within moments, how many times will they try before problem goes away. Detect fast, brick, repeat
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Reapr
And is the network wants to be succesfull a more controlled growth would help. losing those bricked miners would send a message to anyone else who tries to game the system.
the sophistication we are talking about will not be swayed away because their hotspot was bricked
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I guess if we can detect it there shouldn't be need to brick the devices anyway. Just not pay any HNT to the wallet the device is connected to
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exactly....by removing all incentive its just as effective and less wasteful
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Ashwin
I guess if we can detect it there shouldn't be need to brick the devices anyway. Just not pay any HNT to the wallet the device is connected to
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:23 AM
Yeah that's what the deny list does, everything goes through but is returned invalid with a reason of deny
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Some geek get on it or… we’re all on a ticking time bomb, someone email the 10k staked validators, they will want bricks im sure
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Then they should let their voice be heard in this channel?
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Are we just chatting? Is anyone who can do anything here? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:25 AM
I helped raise the hip
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10:25
once we settle on what we're doing, it can be voted on
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Bricking and refusing to pay HNT would be a good incentive,
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But why brick it then? The only incentive for those gamers is to earn HNT. If that part falls away I don't think anything should be bricked
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:26 AM
once voted and dewi decide, helium have indicated this hip doesn't have much workload associated and they'd be providing the code, so things can move quite fast
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We have to know the “game” before we can detect/deny
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:28 AM
the game currently used isn't a new one it's been seen before
10:28
and another hip actually deals with it way better, but things take time and we need a blunt tool as such to deal with issues like these quickly
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the game currently used isn't a new one it's been seen before
Plz tell
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SPASBLITZ
Some geek get on it or… we’re all on a ticking time bomb, someone email the 10k staked validators, they will want bricks im sure
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 10:30 AM
ur every comment sounds like doomsday is coming? relax 😀
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SPASBLITZ
Plz tell
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 10:30 AM
we're here to discuss hip40 not how to game hotspots
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ProfiGembler
ur every comment sounds like doomsday is coming? relax 😀
Whatever hip40 is , it must describe the problem in order to have something we vote on to fix it right? Point me to where i can read proposal then
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Ashwin
I'm not sure what you mean @Radrob . If a device is actually bricked, selling/transfering shouldn't unbrick it
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 10/06/2021 10:32 AM
Gamers can unbrick devices. Everything on the device is within their control. They can run custom firmware (and some do apparently). (edited)
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SPASBLITZ
Whatever hip40 is , it must describe the problem in order to have something we vote on to fix it right? Point me to where i can read proposal then
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 10:33 AM
its in pins
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Then it gets bricked again.
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SPASBLITZ
Whatever hip40 is , it must describe the problem in order to have something we vote on to fix it right? Point me to where i can read proposal then
Check out the pins for this channel and subject of the channel
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SPASBLITZ
Whatever hip40 is , it must describe the problem in order to have something we vote on to fix it right? Point me to where i can read proposal then
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 10:34 AM
but I have a feeling u r here to find out how to do it urself 😀 sorry if thats not the case
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ProfiGembler
but I have a feeling u r here to find out how to do it urself 😀 sorry if thats not the case
I feel anyone wimpy or goin after ME is suspect, such as you, since im fuming if u can’t tell
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Too bad each HNT paid out does not have a unique identifier that way it could be revoked with these types of accounts.
10:48
Bitter Peach Caterpillar
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this channel isn't for creating the list, but for the process on how to handle egregiously gaming hotspots. Feel free to drop this in #poc-discussion . I am working on a reporting app for the community to use to at least keep track of these potential gaming hotspots
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CryptoNewsPlusYT | SEI 10/06/2021 11:36 AM
Who decides which denylist PR's to accept or reject? elected members from the community (on rotational basis) + 1 from helium inc Do hotspots earn challengee rewards? No What other methods if any should be applied to this basic floor to help define gamed hotspots vs legitimate coverage? How often is the deny list updated? I will wait for radrob How often is this list checked for hotspots returning to normal function, and removal, or is this only done via an appeal process? appeal process Does this committee have the power to choose hotspots out of the scope of this floor on earnings, as an emergency procedure? yes
11:37
I think if everyone just reply to those questions very briefly to help each other get this moving
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 11:38 AM
yeah I'm currently updating the hip to simplify it
11:38
we're working it out to be much simpler, had technical feedback now
11:38
should have something to show in a day or 2, something we can vote on
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Radrob
when hotspots are still on backorder everywhere
Following this discussion and just adding my 2 cents that even though there are many hotspots on backorder, that there are also new distributors and hotspot reveals popping up weekly/daily. Check eBay with the recent MNTD drop of 18k us915miners and you can see the bottleneck is coming to an end (EU is next for MNTD). Bricking gamed hotspots I personally would love to see happen. (edited)
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CryptoNewsPlusYT | SEI 10/06/2021 11:39 AM
What other methods if any should be applied to this basic floor to help define gamed hotspots vs legitimate coverage? I think one of the community tools can help us with tracking the highest earners!!!
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Marvelous
Following this discussion and just adding my 2 cents that even though there are many hotspots on backorder, that there are also new distributors and hotspot reveals popping up weekly/daily. Check eBay with the recent MNTD drop of 18k us915miners and you can see the bottleneck is coming to an end (EU is next for MNTD). Bricking gamed hotspots I personally would love to see happen. (edited)
CryptoNewsPlusYT | SEI 10/06/2021 11:41 AM
i agree with u, but this is not part of the hip40....and it is not something helium can control ( i think)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yeah I'm currently updating the hip to simplify it
CryptoNewsPlusYT | SEI 10/06/2021 11:41 AM
thanks
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The criteria for HS's to be added to this deny-list is now captured through a query running against etl.dewi.org? Is this also the intended 'source' to be used? Or could the same selection derive from data from the blockchain itself. I mean how 'secure' is the etl.dewi.org. Or is the query just an example. (edited)
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Marvelous
Following this discussion and just adding my 2 cents that even though there are many hotspots on backorder, that there are also new distributors and hotspot reveals popping up weekly/daily. Check eBay with the recent MNTD drop of 18k us915miners and you can see the bottleneck is coming to an end (EU is next for MNTD). Bricking gamed hotspots I personally would love to see happen. (edited)
I also believe that once word gets around that gamed units will get bricked and the first batch that does the ammount of miners on eBay will dramatically increase further putting them in line with normal priced miners.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/06/2021 11:58 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Reapr
I also believe that once word gets around that gamed units will get bricked and the first batch that does the ammount of miners on eBay will dramatically increase further putting them in line with normal priced miners.
Im not even looking hard, just my witness lists, found another gamer… this is NOT good https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112uDLdzJEYu1hdoQbonweKMpBFaEmREPPgUatwj6QqnU5ymeSXs
11:59
Chicago is infested apparently
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Marvelous
Following this discussion and just adding my 2 cents that even though there are many hotspots on backorder, that there are also new distributors and hotspot reveals popping up weekly/daily. Check eBay with the recent MNTD drop of 18k us915miners and you can see the bottleneck is coming to an end (EU is next for MNTD). Bricking gamed hotspots I personally would love to see happen. (edited)
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 12:05 PM
there was 18K ??? 😲
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SPASBLITZ
Im not even looking hard, just my witness lists, found another gamer… this is NOT good https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112uDLdzJEYu1hdoQbonweKMpBFaEmREPPgUatwj6QqnU5ymeSXs
Look up around Victoria and Vancouver BC ...
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ProfiGembler
there was 18K ??? 😲
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Marvelous
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 12:21 PM
oooh its huge guy...well I doubt that,cause they would have more onboards than this since they are ready to ship
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ProfiGembler
oooh its huge guy...well I doubt that,cause they would have more onboards than this since they are ready to ship
We will see! MNTD replied to their tweet, not denying that number and saying , "EU units will be available in the coming weeks!". Also, I personally bought 5 and they are being delivered this afternoon 😎
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Marvelous
We will see! MNTD replied to their tweet, not denying that number and saying , "EU units will be available in the coming weeks!". Also, I personally bought 5 and they are being delivered this afternoon 😎
ProfiGembler 10/06/2021 12:28 PM
yeah,they will have it eventually Im sure. I have all raks,and I can say its the most reliable miner out there...looking forward for that dashboard
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SPASBLITZ
Im not even looking hard, just my witness lists, found another gamer… this is NOT good https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112uDLdzJEYu1hdoQbonweKMpBFaEmREPPgUatwj6QqnU5ymeSXs
Guys, again, this is not a channel for reporting suspected spoofed hotspots. Please stop
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io sorry if I missed it, I've been back scrolling to catch up. It looks like the floor idea has been modified, but I hadn't seen anything on how often this report would be run and voted on? The 50,000 blocks sounded like a good idea, but if they are allowed to run for a month before a vote, then I wouldn't think the block time would be sufficient.
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VodoBaas1
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io sorry if I missed it, I've been back scrolling to catch up. It looks like the floor idea has been modified, but I hadn't seen anything on how often this report would be run and voted on? The 50,000 blocks sounded like a good idea, but if they are allowed to run for a month before a vote, then I wouldn't think the block time would be sufficient.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 2:35 PM
The floor is an interesting metric to detect whats worthwhile for selection, looking at it, its grown since last wednesday which means we need this hip more than ever (edited)
14:36
whats important is we dont pigeon hole the committee and their power to act on hackers, one word i discussed with ap earlier was this idea of "public outcry", which we have a lot of over these gamers at the moment
14:36
but how would we best select them and at the same time not having a committee 24/7 having to look at every hotspot (edited)
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I agree completely, my only worry is that 20 HNT a day for a week let alone a month won't deter gamers if the are deny listed for only 50K blocks imo.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 2:44 PM
i feel the decay shouldn't be needed, its can be manually removed and watched for a period of time, something we can define
14:44
the idea being validators will fetch the list maybe a few times a day (or any other list they choose to use), so quick fast changes can happen (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i feel the decay shouldn't be needed, its can be manually removed and watched for a period of time, something we can define
CryptoNewsPlusYT | SEI 10/06/2021 2:44 PM
i think if we can understand what r u guys capable from the backend to do, so we can contribute accordingly, right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the idea being validators will fetch the list maybe a few times a day (or any other list they choose to use), so quick fast changes can happen (edited)
So the committee would be meeting daily on bad actors possibly? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i feel the decay shouldn't be needed, its can be manually removed and watched for a period of time, something we can define
CryptoNewsPlusYT | SEI 10/06/2021 2:49 PM
also there r many good projects built by the community that i think they can short cut the data analysis and help in the decision making? Yes or no
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 2:50 PM
i don't work for helium just to be clear but from my understanding the implementation would work something like this: validators have a default list included in a config file, validator software fetches from this url a few times a day. Validators have the ability to remove/add lists in their config. List(s) are concatenated together, then when the validator is in CG transactions are checked against the list and if all CG members agree it's invalided with the reason of denylist. (edited)
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VodoBaas1
So the committee would be meeting daily on bad actors possibly? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 2:50 PM
too quick, remember committee wouldn't be paid to do this
14:51
it would need to be something like 2 weekly/weekly, with the power to hold emergency meetings or something like that (edited)
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CryptoNewsPlusYT | SEI
also there r many good projects built by the community that i think they can short cut the data analysis and help in the decision making? Yes or no
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 2:51 PM
not yet
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
too quick, remember committee wouldn't be paid to do this
The fact they aren't being paid was kind of my point, the longer it would take to address a hs, the longer the deny list should be active. So if we are going with bi-monthly meetings shouldn't the block be longer? For instance, say I'm making 20 a day, that's 280 HNT before any action is taken. Why not just get deny listed and wait to fall off and keep your setup, you'll still do better than average.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 2:57 PM
thats why i think decay is a bad idea
14:57
with a manual removal and management done by the committee, they could choose after a set period to trial the removal, and put it back in if they need to (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
with a manual removal and management done by the committee, they could choose after a set period to trial the removal, and put it back in if they need to (edited)
Ah I must have missed that or misunderstood. I agree. I was thinking that if decay was done a 45 day period would be a better suggestion for the cadence that was laid out. Thanks for the clarification.
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VodoBaas1
Ah I must have missed that or misunderstood. I agree. I was thinking that if decay was done a 45 day period would be a better suggestion for the cadence that was laid out. Thanks for the clarification.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 3:00 PM
Its still a bit of a moving idea around some of the final details, I've been chatting to folks and with their help dropping a new revision really soon
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Its still a bit of a moving idea around some of the final details, I've been chatting to folks and with their help dropping a new revision really soon
Oh I understand, it's a work in progress. The base idea is great, thank you to you and Elon for writing it up.
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VodoBaas1
Oh I understand, it's a work in progress. The base idea is great, thank you to you and Elon for writing it up.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 3:34 PM
Bulk of the credit goes to @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io. I just help a little 🙂
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Marvelous
We will see! MNTD replied to their tweet, not denying that number and saying , "EU units will be available in the coming weeks!". Also, I personally bought 5 and they are being delivered this afternoon 😎
Government is not your friend 10/06/2021 4:11 PM
wow, I havent gotten shipping notification yet, but I was in the first 10 minutes of ordering so should be soon, and not Kerlink soon.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Government is not your friend 10/06/2021 4:14 PM
likely so, I am in the midwest.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Government is not your friend 10/06/2021 4:34 PM
Literally just got my shipping notification from MNTD!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/06/2021 4:35 PM
Folks can we keep it related to hip 40 in here please, you have #general for this kind of talk
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Folks can we keep it related to hip 40 in here please, you have #general for this kind of talk
Government is not your friend 10/06/2021 4:38 PM
sorry I was not paying attention. Thought it was general coolcry
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hi guys, I am curious how technically savvy people are in this channel. I am a miner and have researched antenna and signal technology. it seems like the hip 40 is being used to ban legit setups. some may be gaming, but the values are plausible. When one setup is much better then the rest, like MUCH MUCH better, their rewards will reflect that.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Folks can we keep it related to hip 40 in here please, you have #general for this kind of talk
Just brick those that are gaming it. Yeah I know they could unbrick so could Helium. However it sends a warning over their hull.
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i understand ppl want to believe their setups are the best. But legit, there are smarter ppl out there.
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Blinking it daily would be a huge disincentive.
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i use to believe it was gaming too. but when you reseech, and analyze the activity it is just that these setups are smarter and better. I've only done a small similation and haven't put my theory in practice. But when these hotspots in high areas are doing well, some of them are not through gaming the system.
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So would having to get de-bricked also e a huge disincentive.
18:49
especailly if they have to do it more than once.
18:53
Bricking a gamed unit is not a big deal on a much required firmware update. The question is why would they not want to do it!
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Max - Just Max 10/06/2021 7:01 PM
Oh boy, The list is growing
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Hotspots shouldn't be put on the denylist based on the assumption of gaming. There needs to be credible technical proof of gaming. This type of assuming is not logical and actually hurts innovation. Those that come up with better setups now have to fear being banned. and yes, there are setups that are better then what "smart" ppl think exist.
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dr.marvin
Hotspots shouldn't be put on the denylist based on the assumption of gaming. There needs to be credible technical proof of gaming. This type of assuming is not logical and actually hurts innovation. Those that come up with better setups now have to fear being banned. and yes, there are setups that are better then what "smart" ppl think exist.
this is really good point to keep in mind, thank you for bringing it up.
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dr.marvin
Hotspots shouldn't be put on the denylist based on the assumption of gaming. There needs to be credible technical proof of gaming. This type of assuming is not logical and actually hurts innovation. Those that come up with better setups now have to fear being banned. and yes, there are setups that are better then what "smart" ppl think exist.
Did you post earlier this month using the name "Panther"?
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SporadicE
Did you post earlier this month using the name "Panther"?
No, but if you are technically adept enough to explain the logic of hip40, please go ahead. All I see is ppl who have only community knowledge of this technology and have limited understanding of how to optimize it, trying to stop some ppl with solid more innovative setups. Please feel free to address this point.
20:10
of course there are probably ppl gaming the system, but there are some who just have a more innovative set up.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/06/2021 8:20 PM
Witnesses are reset whenever a Hotspot's location, antenna values, or elevation are changed. This is nothing to be concerned about as the Witness list is used to illustrate Hotspots that have seen a beacon from your Hotspot and does not affect your ability to earn HNT. Learn more: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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I'd disagree with your position. I'd suggest placing a HS immediately on a deny list when they were found to be relayed, have no witnesses and were witnessing more than 30 stations every hour. A request from the committee would go out to this miner owner requesting that they document their station, indicating their superior technology. This would enhance the spread of this enhanced technology throughout the network. Once the committee agreed that this technology benefitted the network, then the miner would come off the deny list and could recommence mining. If they disappear then they were thieves/gamers. If not everybody comes out ahead.
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SporadicE
I'd disagree with your position. I'd suggest placing a HS immediately on a deny list when they were found to be relayed, have no witnesses and were witnessing more than 30 stations every hour. A request from the committee would go out to this miner owner requesting that they document their station, indicating their superior technology. This would enhance the spread of this enhanced technology throughout the network. Once the committee agreed that this technology benefitted the network, then the miner would come off the deny list and could recommence mining. If they disappear then they were thieves/gamers. If not everybody comes out ahead.
Ahh... But what is wrong with "witnessing 30 stations every hour"? Explain. Also, why should ppl disclose their knowledge without compensation? We run hotspots, we don't work for Helium? Explain please.
20:26
if I am providing better POC then others, I should be compensated, not penalized.
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Absolutely nothing wrong with working >30 stations/hour. It indicates a subset of either very efficient stations or gamers. You may own a miner but you are operating on The Helium network, taking Helium money. The network is for everybody, not a subset.
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SporadicE
I'd disagree with your position. I'd suggest placing a HS immediately on a deny list when they were found to be relayed, have no witnesses and were witnessing more than 30 stations every hour. A request from the committee would go out to this miner owner requesting that they document their station, indicating their superior technology. This would enhance the spread of this enhanced technology throughout the network. Once the committee agreed that this technology benefitted the network, then the miner would come off the deny list and could recommence mining. If they disappear then they were thieves/gamers. If not everybody comes out ahead.
Personally, i have no interest in helping you. as I assume you have no interest in helping me.
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SporadicE
Absolutely nothing wrong with working >30 stations/hour. It indicates a subset of either very efficient stations or gamers. You may own a miner but you are operating on The Helium network, taking Helium money. The network is for everybody, not a subset.
haha... Yup as i assumed. Nonsense arguments.
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Sorry you feel that way. unethical people manipulate technology in many different ways.
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SporadicE
Sorry you feel that way. unethical people manipulate technology in many different ways.
True, but when someone does something better then you, you assume they are unethical. That in itself is flawed and unethical.
Troll 1
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dr.marvin
hi guys, I am curious how technically savvy people are in this channel. I am a miner and have researched antenna and signal technology. it seems like the hip 40 is being used to ban legit setups. some may be gaming, but the values are plausible. When one setup is much better then the rest, like MUCH MUCH better, their rewards will reflect that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 8:31 PM
Prove it
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Wow.. that is a reach.. a surmise that you are a troll and not serious about the network. Offer up a solution. I did...
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i will wait for helium admins to respond. you guys really need to understand that this is technology. yes there are cheaters out there, but there are also legit smarter ppl out there too. Also POC is what we get rewards for, prove that gaming causes excessive witnessing. prove it. I don't think it's possible to do something like that.
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dr.marvin
i will wait for helium admins to respond. you guys really need to understand that this is technology. yes there are cheaters out there, but there are also legit smarter ppl out there too. Also POC is what we get rewards for, prove that gaming causes excessive witnessing. prove it. I don't think it's possible to do something like that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 8:37 PM
wait... it's technology?? OMG! (edited)
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dr.marvin
i will wait for helium admins to respond. you guys really need to understand that this is technology. yes there are cheaters out there, but there are also legit smarter ppl out there too. Also POC is what we get rewards for, prove that gaming causes excessive witnessing. prove it. I don't think it's possible to do something like that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 8:39 PM
We already know the exploit being used. So prove it already...
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dr.marvin
i will wait for helium admins to respond. you guys really need to understand that this is technology. yes there are cheaters out there, but there are also legit smarter ppl out there too. Also POC is what we get rewards for, prove that gaming causes excessive witnessing. prove it. I don't think it's possible to do something like that.
I believe you have it backwards about witnessing and gaming. Your tangential logic is a hallmark of a troll or something else. I'll not waste further time with you or your alter ego- Panther
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 8:39 PM
Or are you just another cheat apologist looking to protect your profits?
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I hope you guys are not representative of people proposing HIPs.
😆 1
20:42
Again, this is something Helium should look at and feel free to DM me. I am new to this channel and would like to have a more legitimate discussion with ppl with proper knowledge.
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dr.marvin
Again, this is something Helium should look at and feel free to DM me. I am new to this channel and would like to have a more legitimate discussion with ppl with proper knowledge.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 8:46 PM
Sure thing "Panther". We'll get right on that...
😆 1
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jerm
this is really good point to keep in mind, thank you for bringing it up.
Goofy Pseudonym 10/06/2021 9:19 PM
I have a concern for what it's worth. A hotspot can still too easily be associated (rightly or wrongly) with a real world address. A public deny list of any kind would foreseeably lead to people getting harassed and their property destroyed. Is this what we're considering here? Not a good idea, imo. Does this hip proposal address this possibility?
21:21
Even the known characters who flaunt their gaming skills here daily shouldn't be publicly harassed and have their antennas ripped off buildings or whatever, imo.
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Goofy Pseudonym
Even the known characters who flaunt their gaming skills here daily shouldn't be publicly harassed and have their antennas ripped off buildings or whatever, imo.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 9:23 PM
Any doxxing is fully in the control of the hotspot owner. Anything beyond that is a matter for local law enforcement. Not that cheats assert on their real location anyway. 😉
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Goofy Pseudonym 10/06/2021 9:25 PM
"Not that cheats assert on their real location anyway." True this. Good luck to them, I guess.
21:26
Don't put your antenna on mom's house if you're gonna cheat, lol
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21:29
Still, vigilantes might be motivated (even if misdirected by the cheater) by a public list
21:30
I don't know. I just don't like solutions to problems that have the potential to cause more problems
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Goofy Pseudonym
I don't know. I just don't like solutions to problems that have the potential to cause more problems
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/06/2021 9:35 PM
Calling out any person as a problem to the society as a whole can cause that same issue. It's worked so far, so I'm not too worried about it. 🙂
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SOB’s are even breaking poc rules, squeezing in 11 witnesses…
facepalm 2
00:04
Bitter Peach and two other gamers in chicago area are breaking 10 witnesses rule for OTHER miner’s beacons to suit them
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SPASBLITZ
Bitter Peach and two other gamers in chicago area are breaking 10 witnesses rule for OTHER miner’s beacons to suit them
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/07/2021 12:05 AM
Ehm... have you read the #announcements ?
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It’s an unbelievable pile of shit…
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Ehm... have you read the #announcements ?
Thx, they are still piles of shit
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SPASBLITZ
Thx, they are still piles of shit
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/07/2021 12:07 AM
Watch the language buddy
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/07/2021 12:09 AM
Alright, i give you some time to study the dictionary. Fecal speech doesn't help in this discussion at all (edited)
🤭 1
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SPASBLITZ
SOB’s are even breaking poc rules, squeezing in 11 witnesses…
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 12:21 AM
They increased the cap to 18... facepalm
😂 1
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Goofy Pseudonym
Still, vigilantes might be motivated (even if misdirected by the cheater) by a public list
I believe theses kinds of actions come from the lack thereof action. The denylist should make it less likely because why waste your energy destroying “their antenna” when they make 0 HNT already
👌 1
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Goofy Pseudonym
I have a concern for what it's worth. A hotspot can still too easily be associated (rightly or wrongly) with a real world address. A public deny list of any kind would foreseeably lead to people getting harassed and their property destroyed. Is this what we're considering here? Not a good idea, imo. Does this hip proposal address this possibility?
The FCC requires a station address as well as a mailing address for licensed Amateur Radio Operators. No such requirement for 915 MHz. The required public address has not led to property destruction or attacks in the Ham radio world even though there can be significant enmity between particular entities. Besides, once you're on the list you're not making coin obviating any need for personal involvement- even if you are so inclined.
👍🏼 3
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dr.marvin
Again, this is something Helium should look at and feel free to DM me. I am new to this channel and would like to have a more legitimate discussion with ppl with proper knowledge.
this is how the HIP process goes, it's an open discussion, there won't be any DM'ing going on with someone from helium inc
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SPASBLITZ
Bitter Peach and two other gamers in chicago area are breaking 10 witnesses rule for OTHER miner’s beacons to suit them
if only there was an announcements channel where you could see any updates that had been made recently, instead of jumping to wild conclusions
😂 5
😹 2
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dr.marvin
i use to believe it was gaming too. but when you reseech, and analyze the activity it is just that these setups are smarter and better. I've only done a small similation and haven't put my theory in practice. But when these hotspots in high areas are doing well, some of them are not through gaming the system.
i question whether many of them are really that high up. if i were gaming to get tons of witnesses and wanted to make it seem legitimate, i'd find some huge structure in the area, like a radio tower, and assert it there with high elevation regardless of whether it were true.
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5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 11:02 AM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io as you have seen the team has done something against those HS, would this mean that if its possible for Helium to find the problem that there would be no need for another sort of mechanic and we can maybe shift to the bigger patterns ?
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5KY- Evolver
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io as you have seen the team has done something against those HS, would this mean that if its possible for Helium to find the problem that there would be no need for another sort of mechanic and we can maybe shift to the bigger patterns ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 11:14 AM
The team did what exactly against those hotspots? They're still mining and cheating, so not sure what you are talking about. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 11:18 AM
Oh whoa... haven't caught up on the POC channel yet today.
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5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 11:24 AM
np
👍 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 11:33 AM
I would love to know how they flatlined them, but I know that info getting out would just let them work around it faster... Which means there is a workaround and they will be back. Least it buys us some time to get other things in place. 🙂 @capcom Please thank the team for us. ❤️
💯 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I would love to know how they flatlined them, but I know that info getting out would just let them work around it faster... Which means there is a workaround and they will be back. Least it buys us some time to get other things in place. 🙂 @capcom Please thank the team for us. ❤️
Nooo my HIP... no one will want to make the network better now 😆 (edited)
coolcry 2
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Anthonyra
Nooo my HIP... no one will want to make the network better now 😆 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 12:15 PM
lol No man, we still need your HIP. They will be back soon as they get around this latest block. 🙂
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Now, based on the fact that there was no OTA update announced and that it flatlined all at once. I bet it was an exploit found on a specific makers hotspot probably one of the containerized one... that allowed them to get those witness receipts. Now I know Bobcat had their diagnostic tool open to the public an update ago makes me wonder
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Anthonyra
Nooo my HIP... no one will want to make the network better now 😆 (edited)
5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 12:31 PM
ur hip is great bro but needs to include the big players imo
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5KY- Evolver
ur hip is great bro but needs to include the big players imo
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 12:31 PM
What do you mean?
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5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 12:32 PM
the big patterns
12:33
the hotspots that dont provide anything to the network and get thousands
12:33
poc11 or 12 or 13 has nothing to do with this if we can also put some manual help
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Anthonyra
Now, based on the fact that there was no OTA update announced and that it flatlined all at once. I bet it was an exploit found on a specific makers hotspot probably one of the containerized one... that allowed them to get those witness receipts. Now I know Bobcat had their diagnostic tool open to the public an update ago makes me wonder
what's a containerized one? so you mean these people were stealing witness receipts from bobcats and taking them for themselves?
12:38
other theory is they changed something else with moving the chainvar from 10 to 18
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dcballers
what's a containerized one? so you mean these people were stealing witness receipts from bobcats and taking them for themselves?
That's my hunch but I don't have a bobcat to validate it 😅, containerized as in using docker for miner software, packet forwarder implementation (edited)
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dcballers
what's a containerized one? so you mean these people were stealing witness receipts from bobcats and taking them for themselves?
Oct 07, 2021 - Bobcat pushed the latest OTA update at 09:00 PDT today. The following updates occurred in this OTA: Bobcat Miner Firmware updated to 1.0.2.29 This OTA update is for the Bobcat Firmware only. The update enables log cleanup and addresses log memory space exhaustion, which previously disrupted hotspots from receiving further OTAs. Th...
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Anthonyra
That's my hunch but I don't have a bobcat to validate it 😅, containerized as in using docker for miner software, packet forwarder implementation (edited)
Fascinating. Would looking at the bobcat rewards in this areas before during and after this period be a way to test the hypothesis? Reasoning being that any beacons the bobcats would have witnessed would likely to have been piggy backed by the gamers, therefore reducing the per witness rewards for those beacons with <=10 or reducing the chance that the bobcat gets randomly selected for those >10.
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dcballers
Fascinating. Would looking at the bobcat rewards in this areas before during and after this period be a way to test the hypothesis? Reasoning being that any beacons the bobcats would have witnessed would likely to have been piggy backed by the gamers, therefore reducing the per witness rewards for those beacons with <=10 or reducing the chance that the bobcat gets randomly selected for those >10.
It's going to be tough because they could have got the witness from a witness that was dropped because of the random 10.. (edited)
13:03
Just things lines up
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5KY- Evolver
poc11 or 12 or 13 has nothing to do with this if we can also put some manual help
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 1:38 PM
PoCxx is not a HIP 🙂
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5KY- Evolver
ur hip is great bro but needs to include the big players imo
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 1:38 PM
It does affect the "big players"
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I thought this was the peoples network not a corporate network er... I meant big players.
facepalm 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It does affect the "big players"
5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 1:46 PM
elon keep your comments to yourself bro please
13:46
i know what poc is and what a hip is and who it effects and who it doesnt
13:47
and it does not effect the 50 + device spoofers this is what neil said
13:47
for that there is a bigger plan
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5KY- Evolver
elon keep your comments to yourself bro please
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/07/2021 1:47 PM
clam down, Elon is one of the authors of this hip
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5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 1:48 PM
so what am calm even if he is an author
13:48
didnt say anything wrong
13:49
will you add the BIG SPOOFERS in china to your list yes or no ?
13:49
or anywhere else
13:49
the wallets with 50 HS
13:50
since you want to add spoofers
13:50
and gamers
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5KY- Evolver
elon keep your comments to yourself bro please
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 1:50 PM
What are you talking about? I'm trying to answer your questions. 🤨
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5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 1:50 PM
no no thats not answering thats telling me you dont know the difference between a hip and poc
13:50
but yeah
13:50
lets move on
13:50
will it or not stop the 20+ 30+ 40+ hs that are spoofing ?
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5KY- Evolver
no no thats not answering thats telling me you dont know the difference between a hip and poc
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 1:51 PM
Because you mentioned PoCs instead of HIPs. 🤷‍♂️
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5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 1:51 PM
on 1 wallet
13:51
i meant POC
13:51
thats why
13:51
POC 11 is meant to remove those cheaters or at least help with it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/07/2021 1:51 PM
this is chat related to hip40, the deny list, please keep it on focus or ask elsewhere
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5KY- Evolver 10/07/2021 1:51 PM
sir
13:52
DENYLIST
13:52
to add
13:52
spoofers
13:52
cheaters
13:52
right ?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 1:52 PM
This HIP is already targeting the big cheaters. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
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5KY- Evolver
POC 11 is meant to remove those cheaters or at least help with it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 1:54 PM
It will help a little but it's not the core focus of PoC11 🙂
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poc11 is mostly for regulatory compliance i believe, dont quote me on that though hah
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Keenan
poc11 is mostly for regulatory compliance i believe, dont quote me on that though hah
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 2:01 PM
That sounds right from what Capcom has said. 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/07/2021 4:11 PM
Well, the floors been obliterated today, cool to see it's not a good metric anymore, justifies the removal from the hip (edited)
16:11
The last top scoring ones earnings have dropped to 0
16:11
List should be fairly useless tomorrow or the next few days at least
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capcom
this is how the HIP process goes, it's an open discussion, there won't be any DM'ing going on with someone from helium inc
I'm glad to see a solution was found. I'm more worried that if I put up an antenna and it overperforms, I will always have a fear it will get banned.
17:06
My proposal would have been to cap earnings on individual antennas that made too much.
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dr.marvin
I'm glad to see a solution was found. I'm more worried that if I put up an antenna and it overperforms, I will always have a fear it will get banned.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 5:10 PM
To be very clear, it wasn't a solution. It was a speedbump. They'll be back.
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Also, I would compare hotspots to sports. You'll have many levels of athletes. Poor, average, good, and extraordinary. Some(very few) hotspots will just be in the right spot. Perfect elevation, perfect setup, great number of surrounding hotspots with limited TS. And on that perfect day or two or three would exceed the denylist threshold. It's something that i think is possible.
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dr.marvin
Also, I would compare hotspots to sports. You'll have many levels of athletes. Poor, average, good, and extraordinary. Some(very few) hotspots will just be in the right spot. Perfect elevation, perfect setup, great number of surrounding hotspots with limited TS. And on that perfect day or two or three would exceed the denylist threshold. It's something that i think is possible.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 5:11 PM
Just because you exceed the threshold doesn't mean you get banned.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Just because you exceed the threshold doesn't mean you get banned.
Okay, that was my concern from the get go. That if i put a hotspot high up in the center of my city, that it may earn too much and give the appearance of gaming.
17:13
It seemed like this hip was all about a threshold ban
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dr.marvin
Okay, that was my concern from the get go. That if i put a hotspot high up in the center of my city, that it may earn too much and give the appearance of gaming.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/07/2021 5:13 PM
nah, it just would put you in the shortlist to get looked at. 🙂
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Okay, then I'm good.thnx
👍 1
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I'm glad it was confirmed one way or another though.
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I think this is still needed, I just hope it’s something never have to use. But if we need too we can
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Anthonyra
I think this is still needed, I just hope it’s something never have to use. But if we need too we can
Agreed
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Anthonyra
I think this is still needed, I just hope it’s something never have to use. But if we need too we can
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/08/2021 1:19 PM
Well as i'm sure you all know, they're back already, so yeah, let's keep pushing to get this done. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well as i'm sure you all know, they're back already, so yeah, let's keep pushing to get this done. 🙂
Right atleast the Helium team was on the right track
💯 1
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Hey guys is there a place to report a hotspot to the team that you think is being spoofed?
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M△RK
Hey guys is there a place to report a hotspot to the team that you think is being spoofed?
#karens
🤣 1
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M△RK
Hey guys is there a place to report a hotspot to the team that you think is being spoofed?
Unfortunately no 😦
10:23
Not until this hip passes
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/09/2021 10:24 AM
Its not really for reporting spoofing either, more to catch only the most extreme hackers
10:24
poc changes, such as pocv11, and some upcoming hips, will do a much better job of combatting gaming as a whole (edited)
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extreme haxor
10:26
I bet passing this hip and banning the most extreme people will actually have a decent impact on peoples rewards, instead of 1 person earning 5k a day thats now free for all the real supporters
10:26
This hip gets my vote
✅ 2
16:35
A another cheater for u deny list
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eddybitcoin 10/09/2021 8:15 PM
i cant wait for these cheaters to get rejected!
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One thing I like POW is unlike POC there is no way to cheat on the system,at least for now
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I only ask myself why are those hack guys always call chip hotspots or is it just a coincidence
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Crazy Raging Bull
A another cheater for u deny list
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/10/2021 2:03 AM
the great thing about running a basic floor, is that it already picks them out (the possible worst gamers) it's like a reference list of whats worth investigating, have a look at it: https://etl.dewi.org/public/question/54f5138b-b7ec-47c7-9da3-6a8c94ffe0eb (edited)
02:03
I think the committee formed around this hip could use this as a metric
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The last top scoring ones earnings have dropped to 0
Well they are back on track again lol 19.66 hnt in 24 hour
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vagaddict
Well they are back on track again lol 19.66 hnt in 24 hour
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/10/2021 2:04 AM
even more reason to get this hip going
02:05
around the 4-5hnt a day mark, you really run into legit setups with that floor
02:05
but id say anything (right now) over the 6/7 mark is worth investigating
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Yeah 4/5 could be possible whit a good almost perfect setup
02:05
But these one hell no
02:05
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/10/2021 2:06 AM
when we did it based on a week, and it selected 300 hotspots, there were quite a few legit ones in it
02:06
so it was moved to 2 weeks and i still think the bottom selection can be legit spots
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No witnes at all relayed the activity tells all
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/10/2021 2:09 AM
yeah relayed and no inbound connections can be made
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And al of those rewards in a few days all off them are just online for 3/4/5 days and earn so many hnt in 24 hours that tells enough for me and all of them are rak devices
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/10/2021 2:17 AM
they're already earning more than an average hotspot does in two weeks, thats what that list is
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what if we set max hnt (example 3 hnt per day) one's can earn for each miner.the gamer will not like it, but majority miners will be benefit ,you can't let cheaters take whatever they want. (edited)
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KenjaBals
what if we set max hnt (example 3 hnt per day) one's can earn for each miner.the gamer will not like it, but majority miners will be benefit ,you can't let cheaters take whatever they want. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/10/2021 8:41 AM
That's a really bad idea that penalises good setups, there are loads of legit hotspots hitting over 3 a day
💯 1
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i know the point is to balance out the earning because not everyone can have best location it doesnt mean they are not trying to improve the network
08:45
after all we all paid same price for the miners just make it more fair won't hurt
08:47
i do believe there's a lot people disappointed and have to keep there miners up just becasue of roi
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That's a really bad idea that penalises good setups, there are loads of legit hotspots hitting over 3 a day
without "under performance" miners sending out beacons those legit high gain miners won't exist,am i right?i have some poor miners around me and i've been witlessness them and earn from them,i feel sorry wheni checking thier earnings (edited)
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KenjaBals
without "under performance" miners sending out beacons those legit high gain miners won't exist,am i right?i have some poor miners around me and i've been witlessness them and earn from them,i feel sorry wheni checking thier earnings (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/10/2021 8:59 AM
A poc limit on witnessing based on beaconing related hip is coming soon, it deals with the majority of gaming much better than a ban would (edited)
💯 1
08:59
This hips more a quick reaction tool to deny the worst gaming until a fix can be put in place
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thanks for the answer
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KenjaBals
what if we set max hnt (example 3 hnt per day) one's can earn for each miner.the gamer will not like it, but majority miners will be benefit ,you can't let cheaters take whatever they want. (edited)
Jaytheblader 10/10/2021 1:30 PM
The upcoming HIP-42 will have this sort of effect as the amount you can witness is tied to the amount that can witness you though your beacons. let’s hope that gets in relatively quickly. (edited)
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small players like these one will stay?
14:31
witness every few minutes. multiple beacons per day
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Zenitramzal 10/10/2021 3:34 PM
Where is the Hip42 discussion?
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Is there a HIP to increase the resolution scale from 8 to 10 or 11?
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TheOmy
Is there a HIP to increase the resolution scale from 8 to 10 or 11?
ProfiGembler 10/10/2021 10:39 PM
we already have resolutions 4-12 I think, and each has its own allowed number of hotspots...also that number can increase depending on neighbour hexes...so, no.
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@ProfiGembler oh ok. Thanks! Just started learning about the HIP and the hexagons
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We need the Deny List as Anthonyra has proposed. Let's get this done already. (edited)
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Zenitramzal
Where is the Hip42 discussion?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/11/2021 5:47 PM
#hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit
19:27
One of my miners just beaconed this guy. 500m highist be a cell tower. No witnesses.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/11/2021 7:27 PM
Witnesses are reset whenever a Hotspot's location, antenna values, or elevation are changed. This is nothing to be concerned about as the Witness list is used to illustrate Hotspots that have seen a beacon from your Hotspot and does not affect your ability to earn HNT. Learn more: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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theskywatcher 10/11/2021 7:43 PM
Can we request that notifications be posted on this server for several days before a straw poll takes place
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the great thing about running a basic floor, is that it already picks them out (the possible worst gamers) it's like a reference list of whats worth investigating, have a look at it: https://etl.dewi.org/public/question/54f5138b-b7ec-47c7-9da3-6a8c94ffe0eb (edited)
hi, i am new here, how to exposed cheater there. because it really effect my profit. few days ago i am convinced by some guys there said cheaters wouldn't affect me.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/12/2021 6:38 AM
This room is about discussion on a method to block only the worst gamers, not all gaming, which would be better combatted by changes to Proof of Coverage, such as #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit (edited)
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i mean not all cheaters in this game
06:39
cheater's miners are sitting around me and they witness themself
06:41
i am helpless
06:41
maybe someone can check those below
06:41
13KACVZL2sghjDAvLbe81XHRetcFBSHHrzehKc3XVecpGcrsjWe
06:42
13iBTzQtY7khYYdykusLZUmgaTeGxsCUfRti5fKUCXSF7v3UnEC
06:42
13Uo8ehPJFNpTfLV1fgtt8xTG1rqPyUjjBEwbWGsmHDWndijCzz
06:43
14ovzU1faKUjEnUzoVxcEquuBjUqKaULYm1FJ47nZRCgkYMWY3i
06:43
please
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/12/2021 6:49 AM
again, we dont have a method to ban hotspots, and this is about discussion of a deny list for only the worst hotspots.
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what is the worst hotspots
06:51
dont understand
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/12/2021 7:00 AM
suggestions were made around this type of list being used to filter the worst for investigation https://etl.dewi.org/public/question/54f5138b-b7ec-47c7-9da3-6a8c94ffe0eb
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YTLin
what is the worst hotspots
If the continued abuse or use of such hotspots would result in damages to the network as a whole. Some prime examples from the past would be Modesto, Port Huron, and Meerkat. As an example, Meerkat was able to mine 940 HNT per epoch (30 minutes) prior to being stopped. They mined a great deal of rewards while the fix was being developed... As anti-gaming measures get better and the network gets bigger the amount considered to be detrimental to the network will also change. However, this should be a feature that's implemented but never used yet we have it if someone really finds a way to jeopardize the integrity of Helium.
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Okay I got what you say
07:24
Some scenarios should be considered like beginning stages city. Because fewer real gamers versus huge amount miners owned by fewer wallets. It is real problem.
07:27
We discussed in tw-Taiwan channel those suspicions miners from China by their ip.
07:27
😭
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I wonder if the worst hotspots could be easily classified using ML. SVM and maybe a simple greedy approach to pick the best features
08:12
There are plenty of known cheaters so I imagine training and tuning wouldn't be an issue
08:14
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UncleSteve
I wonder if the worst hotspots could be easily classified using ML. SVM and maybe a simple greedy approach to pick the best features
definitely could, we did some work on this in the past. one of the challenges is that once the training data is public, it becomes easy to work around
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For one of them pb inquiry just errors out. The other one is behind a vpn
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capcom
definitely could, we did some work on this in the past. one of the challenges is that once the training data is public, it becomes easy to work around
I suspected this much since you graduated with AI degree
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it's really quite easy to spot the suspects in terms of RF, but once you make anything public then it's like a guide on how to operate around it
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UncleSteve
I suspected this much since you graduated with AI degree
well, didn't graduate 😅
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capcom
well, didn't graduate 😅
graduating is overrated
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UncleSteve
graduating is overrated
very
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UncleSteve
graduating is overrated
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/12/2021 12:15 PM
Well... we talking college or high school? 😉 lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well... we talking college or high school? 😉 lol
Both lol. Graduating was just an opportunity for the university to squeeze a little more out of me.... charging extra for a picture when you're on the stage and what not. Saying the ceremony was boring would be an understatement.
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UncleSteve
Both lol. Graduating was just an opportunity for the university to squeeze a little more out of me.... charging extra for a picture when you're on the stage and what not. Saying the ceremony was boring would be an understatement.
maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 4:03 PM
IDK about you guys, I had a blast at school. The social aspect is what I think most people miss out on about school.
16:05
But there should be a limit of number of hotspots that would be "banned"
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maco2035 🐮
IDK about you guys, I had a blast at school. The social aspect is what I think most people miss out on about school.
Professional state boards who accredit practitioners really like graduated people for some reason.... I disagree about putting a limit on the number of HS that could be "banned". If I was going to be a serious gamer I'd hone the concept until it was right and then turn it loose with 50 miners. if you're going to game...go big, hip-40 is needed to stop any/all thieves who provide no value to the network.
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SporadicE
Professional state boards who accredit practitioners really like graduated people for some reason.... I disagree about putting a limit on the number of HS that could be "banned". If I was going to be a serious gamer I'd hone the concept until it was right and then turn it loose with 50 miners. if you're going to game...go big, hip-40 is needed to stop any/all thieves who provide no value to the network.
maco2035 🐮 10/12/2021 4:29 PM
The main thing is that if you put a cap, I was thinking it would be a few % of the network. Not like 10. This would help to make sure that people aren't lobbing a bunch of hotspots into it.
16:31
Also there is a reason why they like people with degrees, it shows that someone did something, and the trust of the college that they taught a something that they need. And not just taking the persons word on it.
16:31
People who don't go to college, and make it will say it takes time to build the reputation that you can get in 4 years.
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Is this one heading for a vote yet?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/13/2021 5:48 AM
almost
05:49
have been filling out an update to the hip, had some technical feedback from helium, feedback from validators and feedback from dewi
👍 1
05:49
pulling this all together and will submit the update soon
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one major thing to consider about this HIP is that validators can implement it regardless of community, dewi, or core dev approval. If the validators want to ignore witness receipts from certain hotspots, there is nothing anyone can do to force them to accept those receipts
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To all the technicals out here is it true that a higher db antenna is more sensitive to pick up more beacons than lower dbi at the same location due to phenomenon called "reciprocity"?
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newuser
To all the technicals out here is it true that a higher db antenna is more sensitive to pick up more beacons than lower dbi at the same location due to phenomenon called "reciprocity"?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/13/2021 9:22 AM
#questions-and-answers please
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Ok thx
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Tushar
one major thing to consider about this HIP is that validators can implement it regardless of community, dewi, or core dev approval. If the validators want to ignore witness receipts from certain hotspots, there is nothing anyone can do to force them to accept those receipts
That's actually the case today, they could drop any and all transactions if they wanted to. But HBBFT determines if that affects a block or not. This however, would focus the group (if they accept to use the list) to help protect the integrity of the network. There's nothing stopping some of the big accounts, Mr.328 for example, from implementing their own homebrew of this today from my understanding but the likelihood of it being successful is small. This implementation itself probably has less than 90% chance of being successful... unless the threat can be agreed upon unanimously. I'm basing this on the fact that some validators don't update regularly/on time and some may choose to not follow the list.. (I hope it's not the case if we prove those on the list deserve to be there for example) Here's a cool graph of Meerkat labeled based on the time the HIP was submitted and then activated. If this was implemented back then and was used when the HIP was submitted it would have saved the network 167k HNT.. https://etl.dewi.org/question/518-dapper-hickory-meerkat-timeline
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 12:23 PM
$3 million...
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How can I help this HIP get implemented? Cheaters and gamers have to be caught. Since it takes time to code their hacks out of existence, they need to be quickly stopped temporarily. I really like this approach for it. I haven't seen one thing I think ought to be done with this; reporter reputation score. Wallets that have successfully reported other cheaters get to send the accused to the "no earnings timeout room" more quickly than others. I am assuming this has to be done off-chain. To get put in the "no earnings timeout room", the deny list as it were, an accused hotspot would need to have 100 points of accusations lobbied against it. [I am making up the values]. Wallets that accuse a hotspot of cheating and then it is determined that indeed the hotspot was cheating, they would get their accusation points doubled. If they accuse and are incorrect, they get their accusation points quartered (I am proposing a giant stick for being wrong). All of the wallets that join in accusing a hotspot of cheating get their reputation points doubled or quartered once it is determined to be a cheating hotspot or not. I am figuring you can't see which hotspots are under investigation; therefore an accuser should feel the enormity of the accusation by potentially being the "first" to accuse.
14:25
I would like to give my support to having the accused hotspot's earnings go to the organization hosting the deny list for escrow. If the accused hotspot is determined to not be cheating, they get all of their earnings delivered from escrow and a grace period to not being accused again. If determined to be cheating, once the hack is coded out of existence then the organization delivers the escrowed tokens to the accusers (in some bug bounty fashion), keeps some for itself for costs, and the rest goes to pay "volunteers" for helping determine the truth of the cheating (using volunteers since I am figuring there is not enough to actually call it being "paid"; I would figure this is a bit like jury duty. Everyone is expected to offer up to be a volunteer at some time and they then get a nominal amount for their civic duty).
14:30
. Is there anything in any of the terms and conditions that we have agreed to use the wallet or hotspot that allows for clawing back the tokens from a cheater's wallet?
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KeithR
. Is there anything in any of the terms and conditions that we have agreed to use the wallet or hotspot that allows for clawing back the tokens from a cheater's wallet?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 7:06 PM
Earnings cannot be diverted, only blocked.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Earnings cannot be diverted, only blocked.
So then some entity is going to have to insure against false accusations.
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KeithR
So then some entity is going to have to insure against false accusations.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 7:08 PM
Yep, that's in the hip. :)
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KeithR
So then some entity is going to have to insure against false accusations.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 7:08 PM
Exactly the objection I brought up to be fixed early on.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Exactly the objection I brought up to be fixed early on.
I guess it either has to be the accusers or DeWi. Though if it is blocked, then the tokens "earned" don't really exist to give back or pay out to the accusers. Or DeWi just gets. bunch of tokens for free to use as bounties or apologies.
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KeithR
I guess it either has to be the accusers or DeWi. Though if it is blocked, then the tokens "earned" don't really exist to give back or pay out to the accusers. Or DeWi just gets. bunch of tokens for free to use as bounties or apologies.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 7:23 PM
There is no "accusers".
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There is no "accusers".
but there could be. it could be one big decentralized HOA
😅 1
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dogcow
but there could be. it could be one big decentralized HOA
Nice metaphor. I think that is how I see it. But there has to be a way to put your money where your accusing mouth is. False accusations need to be punished in some way that will cost tokens and definitely social reputation points. Correct accusations need to be rewarded. And those rewards can be asymmetric; that is, the token loss for punishment can be larger than the token gain for being correct, especially if reputation points are also awarded for correct accusations.
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KeithR
Nice metaphor. I think that is how I see it. But there has to be a way to put your money where your accusing mouth is. False accusations need to be punished in some way that will cost tokens and definitely social reputation points. Correct accusations need to be rewarded. And those rewards can be asymmetric; that is, the token loss for punishment can be larger than the token gain for being correct, especially if reputation points are also awarded for correct accusations.
oh no, it was supposed to be a joke! haha
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dogcow
oh no, it was supposed to be a joke! haha
decentralized police force a better metaphor? but one with accountability built in. (edited)
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I haven't followed this closely enough to have an opinion 🙂 I just chimed in when I saw the opportunity for comedy
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KeithR
Nice metaphor. I think that is how I see it. But there has to be a way to put your money where your accusing mouth is. False accusations need to be punished in some way that will cost tokens and definitely social reputation points. Correct accusations need to be rewarded. And those rewards can be asymmetric; that is, the token loss for punishment can be larger than the token gain for being correct, especially if reputation points are also awarded for correct accusations.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:21 PM
Again, there are no accusers. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There is no "accusers".
Counting on an algorithmic solution to identifying the cheaters will only identify the cheating mechanisms at the time the algorithm is coded.
22:23
Humans are the best method for catching cheaters in this system.
22:23
They are also the worst for reporting cheaters as some will be selfish and falsely accuse.
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KeithR
Counting on an algorithmic solution to identifying the cheaters will only identify the cheating mechanisms at the time the algorithm is coded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:23 PM
This is not for stopping all cheaters...
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It is for catching cheating faster than Helium can code their methods out.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:23 PM
It's only as a panic button to stop the worse ones. Please read the HIP
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The "worse ones" is a moving target. (edited)
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KeithR
The "worse ones" is a moving target. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:24 PM
Not really
22:25
The threshold automatically adjusts
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The "worst ones" today are the ones we have identified. After you code out that cheat a new cheat will be discovered and it will become the worst one.
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KeithR
The "worst ones" today are the ones we have identified. After you code out that cheat a new cheat will be discovered and it will become the worst one.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:26 PM
Please read the HIP
22:27
It is not something like "if you make more more than 10hnt in a day".
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It is getting watered down in my opinion. (edited)
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KeithR
It is getting watered down in my opinion. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:27 PM
How so?
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We are only going to deny the "worst" offenders is a cop out.
facepalm 2
22:29
Any and all cheating should be attempted to be discovered and punished.
22:29
Yes I know it is a difficult task.
22:30
Getting today's worst offenders is an acceptable first pass.
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KeithR
We are only going to deny the "worst" offenders is a cop out.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:30 PM
That what it always was. A stopgap to stop crazy abuse while real fixes are coded.
22:30
That's not a cop out
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Sure it is. It says that cheating out 9 HNT a day is ok.
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KeithR
Sure it is. It says that cheating out 9 HNT a day is ok.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:31 PM
No it doesn't
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Go above 10 HNT a day and you're the worst.
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KeithR
Go above 10 HNT a day and you're the worst.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:31 PM
That's not how it works
22:31
Read. The. HIP.
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"X% above the average miner earnings" - direct quote. (edited)
22:32
<X is ok.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:32 PM
<X gets caught in other methods
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No it doesn't
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:32 PM
Yes, it will
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We wouldn't have caught today's worst if they kept it under the radar
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KeithR
We wouldn't have caught today's worst if they kept it under the radar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:33 PM
That exploit has been known for 2 years...
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Then Helium needs to pay more coders because that is reprehensible to let a cheat go on that long (yes I know they are busy).
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:34 PM
Effort vs impact. The impact of a "clever smoke raven" is basically nothing.
22:34
It just looks really bad.
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Any tokens falsely removed from the system is an offense.
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KeithR
Any tokens falsely removed from the system is an offense.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:36 PM
In coding, you can't do everything. You have to weigh impact vs the effort. I this case, the effort is large and the impact is tiny.
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Meerkat pulled out 3 million dollars worth. Would have been nice if we put them on a deny list as soon as a human noticed it.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:36 PM
HIP 40 is for stuff like Meerkat that was mentioned before.
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The packet forwarders here in WA need to be stopped.
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KeithR
Meerkat pulled out 3 million dollars worth. Would have been nice if we put them on a deny list as soon as a human noticed it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:37 PM
Yes, that is what this hip is for, not some little cheat making 9hnt in a day
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KeithR
The packet forwarders here in WA need to be stopped.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:37 PM
Then support the other HIPs
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This HIP can solve the cheater is faster than the programmer problem.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:38 PM
No it can't
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And gives you a potential police force of 80,000 humans
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:38 PM
There is not enough manpower
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KeithR
And gives you a potential police force of 80,000 humans
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:38 PM
The mob is not the police
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Build in accountability and there is no mob.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:39 PM
The vast majority of them don't know a cheat from a legit hotspot
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And that is just fine. They will have no reason to participate
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KeithR
And that is just fine. They will have no reason to participate
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:40 PM
But they will. We see it here every day
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Hence the need for accountability. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:40 PM
It doesn't work
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Yes it can.
22:40
If it costs you to falsely accuse, then you won't.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:40 PM
Every system for user reporting I've ever seen has been abused in 20+ years of software development.
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Smart contracts have only just become an option.
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KeithR
Smart contracts have only just become an option.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:41 PM
Smart contracts are just coded systems by another name. They're not some foolproof magic bullet. (edited)
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If it costs me 60 tokens to falsely accuse you of cheating 50 tokens, then I am pretty sure people won't falsely accuse. Especially if the next time I do it it costs me 120 tokens.
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KeithR
If it costs me 60 tokens to falsely accuse you of cheating 50 tokens, then I am pretty sure people won't falsely accuse. Especially if the next time I do it it costs me 120 tokens.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:43 PM
Now you're just making reporting for the rich. No. (edited)
22:43
And we're not even talking about this HIP anymore. That is not what this channel is for.
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I am talking about this HIP though. Open accountable reporting. Rewards for working on the committee. Rewards for correctly identifying cheating. Punishment for incorrect accusations.
22:45
Huge punishments for cheating
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KeithR
I am talking about this HIP though. Open accountable reporting. Rewards for working on the committee. Rewards for correctly identifying cheating. Punishment for incorrect accusations.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:45 PM
That is a completely different system
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Mechanisms for getting on and off the deny list.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:46 PM
Plus there is no rewards source
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It is the question in the HIP that I am attempting to offer up an answer.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:46 PM
and paying a jury based on outcome is rife for abuse.
22:46
You have a completely different system in mind. Write a HIP
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Who does the review?; a question I have attempted to answer Governance? Should it be on chain? Another question I have attempted to answer if rewards are held for any reason, or reappropriated, where do they go to? I offered up a solution to this too. A deny list is the best way to quickly accomplish stopping the outflow of tokens through cheating. (edited)
22:49
I am all in with this HIP. I am just trying to guide it to a more complete solution that I think is better for the overall project.
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KeithR
Who does the review?; a question I have attempted to answer Governance? Should it be on chain? Another question I have attempted to answer if rewards are held for any reason, or reappropriated, where do they go to? I offered up a solution to this too. A deny list is the best way to quickly accomplish stopping the outflow of tokens through cheating. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:52 PM
The elected dewi committee does the review Rewards are only blocked. They cannot be redirected.
22:53
Wait for BFGNeil's part two...
22:53
It's almost done
22:53
Again, this is not, nor was it ever meant to be, a "complete solution" (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Now you're just making reporting for the rich. No. (edited)
I understand this risk. It should obviously be free to suggest a hotspot be put on the deny list because you think it is cheating. But if you are wrong, then it should cost you. If you are right, you should be rewarded. Sure, HNT poor people might second guess their accusation because it might be "expensive" to be wrong. They would probably then get public support for their hunch, which in turn would give them the confidence to report.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The elected dewi committee does the review Rewards are only blocked. They cannot be redirected.
This is definitely an issue for my suggestions.
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KeithR
I understand this risk. It should obviously be free to suggest a hotspot be put on the deny list because you think it is cheating. But if you are wrong, then it should cost you. If you are right, you should be rewarded. Sure, HNT poor people might second guess their accusation because it might be "expensive" to be wrong. They would probably then get public support for their hunch, which in turn would give them the confidence to report.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:54 PM
No one has to report a hotspot...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No one has to report a hotspot...
I already addressed this point. Yes a human has to do it. They are the best at doing it.
👎 2
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KeithR
I understand this risk. It should obviously be free to suggest a hotspot be put on the deny list because you think it is cheating. But if you are wrong, then it should cost you. If you are right, you should be rewarded. Sure, HNT poor people might second guess their accusation because it might be "expensive" to be wrong. They would probably then get public support for their hunch, which in turn would give them the confidence to report.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:55 PM
The code highlights hotspots for review. No human.
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KeithR
I already addressed this point. Yes a human has to do it. They are the best at doing it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:55 PM
No.
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<x% is ok then. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:55 PM
A human does not have to report a hotspot
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KeithR
<x% is ok then. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:55 PM
Not a solution to all cheating...
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Cheating is ok, but don't be offensive about it.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:56 PM
not a solution to all cheating...
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Only cheat a little (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:56 PM
FFS... this is ONE tool among many. It's not for catching all cheating
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You are saying cheating a little is ok. FFS.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:57 PM
This is a stopgap ONLY to give time to code a fix for a new exploit.
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KeithR
You are saying cheating a little is ok. FFS.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:57 PM
NO
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but only if you cheat more than x a day (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/13/2021 10:58 PM
We're done. Write your HIP
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Geez what a playground fight that was. I have to take @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped's side here. It is important to get rid of the really bad cheaters ASAP. When it comes to the smaller cheaters: I think it is better to let those very few people cheat "a little" when the other option is a system that will be abused to falsely punish many completely legit miners. I think at some point it becomes very difficult from a software standpoint to distinguish between an good honest hotspot and a cheater which results in good people getting punished which results in people getting discouraged to build good setups which at the end of the day destroys the growth of the network. But thats just my two cents. I really like this HIP because of the software threshold that only selects hotspots who are very likely to be cheating to be reviewed and denied. There are no motivations of envy or anything like that in there. Just pure math. The other options where people can accuse each other leads to an absolute witch hunt where people will just be casting stones at each other without evidence. So at the end: This HIP does imply that "cheating a little" is ok. But that makes perfect sense because this HIP's purpose is to disable the worst offenders and not to stop every and all cheating. It has my full support.
💯 1
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KeithR
If it costs me 60 tokens to falsely accuse you of cheating 50 tokens, then I am pretty sure people won't falsely accuse. Especially if the next time I do it it costs me 120 tokens.
I can see something similar to this being used for the automated version of this system. However, there will still need to be investigation depending on the accusation. It's hard to create a completely 100% automated system with so many variables but eventually we might get to a system that could..
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
they arent beaconing more frequent then others. They are witnessing way more then the average. Explorer labels all PoC activity under the Beacons tab.
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So when they are witnessing that many. Are they rogue
11:49
Or there is something that makes them do it
11:51
Beacuse if it is legit there should be a varible which others dont
11:53
Flat cream whale and narrow amber flamingo were the spots i mentioned
11:56
Radrob anybody?
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it's possible if your setup is perfectly placed, but not likely. This channel is really about finding gamers or talking about their techniques. This channel is a discussion about HIP 40. To discuss gaming and other PoC stuff, go to the #poc-discussion channel
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I'll weigh in here for what it's worth. I don't have the luxury of spending my time hunting the map to identify anomalies that may or may not be scammers. I'm busy busting my ass building the network out legitimately. My educated guess is that 20% of HNT mined every day are going to scammers mostly in china who have no intention to contribute to the network at all. They are thieves. The policy should be simple. Scammers know they are scamming and don't give a shit if you know or not because they have already paid themselves back 10 fold on their investments and know the HIP process is slow. You guy know who the rotten apples are. It takes 5 min looking to find 90% of the most obvious (12zMTvitnNNextEMAqYzkYTstyWzKLBMWaqKcLgsWvwyS1fTFtS) that rake in 750 HNT a month with 40 hotspots in a room. Scamming should not be tolerated at all the punishment should be swift and brutal for the thieves clearly stealing from the ecosystem. Their wallets should be frozen and hotspots removed permanently from the network. Do you really think they are gonna complain? The process you should be discussing is what charity their funds should be donated to. Brick their hotspots and make it abundantly clear that scammers will not be tolerated, ever. Examples: 14RV2sQpCJn5v57kKniM6nv1v315qYZjTcq7XNvQ7NVAL171nHq ; 14TR8XfoANXMEqx7mJC5MSqjEtyLZhhLHDNCPeohf3XR3sDN6Rr ; 133FAwjHkN6t47f7xWL8ZsCsytsYq4A8tQpTnUudmNXfBm9jxYt . They are watching you... (edited)
👍 1
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TysonsTech
I'll weigh in here for what it's worth. I don't have the luxury of spending my time hunting the map to identify anomalies that may or may not be scammers. I'm busy busting my ass building the network out legitimately. My educated guess is that 20% of HNT mined every day are going to scammers mostly in china who have no intention to contribute to the network at all. They are thieves. The policy should be simple. Scammers know they are scamming and don't give a shit if you know or not because they have already paid themselves back 10 fold on their investments and know the HIP process is slow. You guy know who the rotten apples are. It takes 5 min looking to find 90% of the most obvious (12zMTvitnNNextEMAqYzkYTstyWzKLBMWaqKcLgsWvwyS1fTFtS) that rake in 750 HNT a month with 40 hotspots in a room. Scamming should not be tolerated at all the punishment should be swift and brutal for the thieves clearly stealing from the ecosystem. Their wallets should be frozen and hotspots removed permanently from the network. Do you really think they are gonna complain? The process you should be discussing is what charity their funds should be donated to. Brick their hotspots and make it abundantly clear that scammers will not be tolerated, ever. Examples: 14RV2sQpCJn5v57kKniM6nv1v315qYZjTcq7XNvQ7NVAL171nHq ; 14TR8XfoANXMEqx7mJC5MSqjEtyLZhhLHDNCPeohf3XR3sDN6Rr ; 133FAwjHkN6t47f7xWL8ZsCsytsYq4A8tQpTnUudmNXfBm9jxYt . They are watching you... (edited)
20% sounds a bit high, but would love to know what makes your educated guess at that number. That screenshot you added has a hotspot making barely more than the average hotspot. Also, this channel is for HIP40 which is meant to tackle the most egregious offenders, not all gaming.
☝️ 2
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Yea 20% is wildly too high, particularly for just Chinese miners
💯 4
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That's what I'm talking about, the low hanging fruit... The most obvious gamers, visable all over the map, not just in china, have got to be between 10- 15% of the total. Need to be axed.
18:45
They are not contributing to anything but their pockets. (edited)
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looks like they drew a dude with a black eye and bloody nose. It got my attention earlier. So i thought i would see what progress is being made here. Looks like a lot of debate. I'm glad to help.
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What the next step for this hip? when can we exepect it to be voted?
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KnivY
What the next step for this hip? when can we exepect it to be voted?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/16/2021 4:25 AM
rev2 of the hip coming soon, just waiting for the hip31 changes/voting stuff to be settled so we can possibly use it for committee members?
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Have we considered how much voting power the cheaters have due to how much HNT they hold? They could easily shut down the vote on any of these initiatives.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/16/2021 9:11 AM
Im saying it could be used to vote on committee members, not about if denies should go through (edited)
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I’m more thinking along the lines of any of these HIPs actually passing a vote. Since voting power is determined by how much HNT you hold in your wallet.
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Anunnaaki
I’m more thinking along the lines of any of these HIPs actually passing a vote. Since voting power is determined by how much HNT you hold in your wallet.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/16/2021 9:14 AM
They is only a possible voting mech. That is not set in stone
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They is only a possible voting mech. That is not set in stone
That’s good to know. For an initiative like this I would prefer total unique wallets voting rather than voting power of HNT.
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Anunnaaki
That’s good to know. For an initiative like this I would prefer total unique wallets voting rather than voting power of HNT.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/16/2021 9:16 AM
Anyone can make any number of wallets. Vote via hotspot could be better. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Anyone can make any number of wallets. Vote via hotspot could be better. (edited)
Good point. That would be better. I didn’t know we had this many methods of voting.
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Anunnaaki
Good point. That would be better. I didn’t know we had this many methods of voting.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/16/2021 9:17 AM
A lot of discussion in #hip-discussion from late yesterday. :)
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As much as I dislike the cheaters they play the system because it is playable. In a decentralized system implementing a rule or "denylist" where individual users, legit or not, are at the mercy of one person/system/mases/etc is against the very ethos of the blockchain itself. And, poses a bigger risk/trust issues compared with "my" and another thousands annoyance of seeing top 30/40 daily earners. I would happily "vote" a daily cap on maximum earnings (e.g. 2x average (top500 to 1000); or 3HNT/day) or any SYSTEM improvement but I wouldn't "vote" against a hotspot/cluster asserted in the middle of a plain, even if I'm there with an RF analyzer, a Glamos and an Adeunis.
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crixu
As much as I dislike the cheaters they play the system because it is playable. In a decentralized system implementing a rule or "denylist" where individual users, legit or not, are at the mercy of one person/system/mases/etc is against the very ethos of the blockchain itself. And, poses a bigger risk/trust issues compared with "my" and another thousands annoyance of seeing top 30/40 daily earners. I would happily "vote" a daily cap on maximum earnings (e.g. 2x average (top500 to 1000); or 3HNT/day) or any SYSTEM improvement but I wouldn't "vote" against a hotspot/cluster asserted in the middle of a plain, even if I'm there with an RF analyzer, a Glamos and an Adeunis.
It’s the same idea as ad blockers. They subscribe to a bunch of different lists and the lists come and go depending on how reliable and trustworthy they are.
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crixu
As much as I dislike the cheaters they play the system because it is playable. In a decentralized system implementing a rule or "denylist" where individual users, legit or not, are at the mercy of one person/system/mases/etc is against the very ethos of the blockchain itself. And, poses a bigger risk/trust issues compared with "my" and another thousands annoyance of seeing top 30/40 daily earners. I would happily "vote" a daily cap on maximum earnings (e.g. 2x average (top500 to 1000); or 3HNT/day) or any SYSTEM improvement but I wouldn't "vote" against a hotspot/cluster asserted in the middle of a plain, even if I'm there with an RF analyzer, a Glamos and an Adeunis.
Here’s an example for what this list is intended to be used against.. this is also just the first step and I hope in the next year or two it’ll become more automated to align better with decentralization but the current gamers given enough time could do as much damage as meerkat if left to their own devices especially with MNTD shipments https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/897889629859110913 (edited)
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TysonsTech
I'll weigh in here for what it's worth. I don't have the luxury of spending my time hunting the map to identify anomalies that may or may not be scammers. I'm busy busting my ass building the network out legitimately. My educated guess is that 20% of HNT mined every day are going to scammers mostly in china who have no intention to contribute to the network at all. They are thieves. The policy should be simple. Scammers know they are scamming and don't give a shit if you know or not because they have already paid themselves back 10 fold on their investments and know the HIP process is slow. You guy know who the rotten apples are. It takes 5 min looking to find 90% of the most obvious (12zMTvitnNNextEMAqYzkYTstyWzKLBMWaqKcLgsWvwyS1fTFtS) that rake in 750 HNT a month with 40 hotspots in a room. Scamming should not be tolerated at all the punishment should be swift and brutal for the thieves clearly stealing from the ecosystem. Their wallets should be frozen and hotspots removed permanently from the network. Do you really think they are gonna complain? The process you should be discussing is what charity their funds should be donated to. Brick their hotspots and make it abundantly clear that scammers will not be tolerated, ever. Examples: 14RV2sQpCJn5v57kKniM6nv1v315qYZjTcq7XNvQ7NVAL171nHq ; 14TR8XfoANXMEqx7mJC5MSqjEtyLZhhLHDNCPeohf3XR3sDN6Rr ; 133FAwjHkN6t47f7xWL8ZsCsytsYq4A8tQpTnUudmNXfBm9jxYt . They are watching you... (edited)
davidzc "the Gentleman" 10/19/2021 7:16 AM
another too perfect https://www.heliumtracker.io/hotspots/4189 but why is helium supporting illegal activity in China ?
07:16
hence mining is illegal in China ?
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TysonsTech
I'll weigh in here for what it's worth. I don't have the luxury of spending my time hunting the map to identify anomalies that may or may not be scammers. I'm busy busting my ass building the network out legitimately. My educated guess is that 20% of HNT mined every day are going to scammers mostly in china who have no intention to contribute to the network at all. They are thieves. The policy should be simple. Scammers know they are scamming and don't give a shit if you know or not because they have already paid themselves back 10 fold on their investments and know the HIP process is slow. You guy know who the rotten apples are. It takes 5 min looking to find 90% of the most obvious (12zMTvitnNNextEMAqYzkYTstyWzKLBMWaqKcLgsWvwyS1fTFtS) that rake in 750 HNT a month with 40 hotspots in a room. Scamming should not be tolerated at all the punishment should be swift and brutal for the thieves clearly stealing from the ecosystem. Their wallets should be frozen and hotspots removed permanently from the network. Do you really think they are gonna complain? The process you should be discussing is what charity their funds should be donated to. Brick their hotspots and make it abundantly clear that scammers will not be tolerated, ever. Examples: 14RV2sQpCJn5v57kKniM6nv1v315qYZjTcq7XNvQ7NVAL171nHq ; 14TR8XfoANXMEqx7mJC5MSqjEtyLZhhLHDNCPeohf3XR3sDN6Rr ; 133FAwjHkN6t47f7xWL8ZsCsytsYq4A8tQpTnUudmNXfBm9jxYt . They are watching you... (edited)
This right here! Where do I vote?
09:41
Lol k then
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Stackhouse
Lol k then
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/19/2021 9:41 AM
Sorry, I was thinking a different hip. No voting on this has happened yet
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are there any insights into how big the gaming problem is?
12:56
has anybody conducted an analysis?
🤷🏻‍♂️ 1
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Testa
has anybody conducted an analysis?
Hard to say, but as a rough proxy this could be used. When the HIP was first written this query had only 18 results... https://etl.dewi.org/public/question/54f5138b-b7ec-47c7-9da3-6a8c94ffe0eb
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Testa
has anybody conducted an analysis?
There are varying degrees of gaming which makes that a difficult question to answer but I’d say it’s not nearly as bad as some would make it seem
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
hence mining is illegal in China ?
im extremely unclear on the regulations in china, and im sure there are many countries where crypto mining is in a strange legal situation. i think the onus falls on the user/vendor though? i dont know how to conduct a legal analysis of every country that would make sense
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That list is the obvious high earning, somethings-not-quite-right group and it’s like 30 hotspots making roughly 350HNT/day TOTAL…there are some clusters making less then that each sooo lets just 10x that for maximum damage. That would be 3,500HNT/day. There are approximately 83k HNT minted every day so 4% MAX maybe? I’d bet the number is more like 1-2% though. Total gut guesses based on following gaming for a bit so not gospel
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capcom
im extremely unclear on the regulations in china, and im sure there are many countries where crypto mining is in a strange legal situation. i think the onus falls on the user/vendor though? i dont know how to conduct a legal analysis of every country that would make sense
davidzc "the Gentleman" 10/19/2021 3:26 PM
https://www.heliumtracker.io/hotspots/88637 if you just see the dots perfectly aligned. i think it's a closed circuit of a lot of miners just seeing eachother. sorry it disturbes me. 😉
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
https://www.heliumtracker.io/hotspots/88637 if you just see the dots perfectly aligned. i think it's a closed circuit of a lot of miners just seeing eachother. sorry it disturbes me. 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/19/2021 4:10 PM
Stop spamming his everywhere.
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This looks very WTF from an explorer POV but if you look at the satellite image of the area it's all farm land there so it could very well be legit
10:24
I have serious doubts about whether this is really a bunch of miners on farmland but it would be incredibly difficult to make a judgement on it
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muffinscrub
I have serious doubts about whether this is really a bunch of miners on farmland but it would be incredibly difficult to make a judgement on it
it is easier to figure out doing some data science on the RF itself rather than the placement or the earnings
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capcom
it is easier to figure out doing some data science on the RF itself rather than the placement or the earnings
I meant judgement can't really be made from just looking at the explorer as evidence of gaming is all, it can raise a red flag though I guess for more analysis.
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yea, would tend to agree with that. i dont even think earnings are a useful guide a lot of the time
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especially in china when some cities look like something from a video game
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hah, yea. very true. and the grid display on explorer doesn't help either, everything looks fake
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TysonsTech
I'll weigh in here for what it's worth. I don't have the luxury of spending my time hunting the map to identify anomalies that may or may not be scammers. I'm busy busting my ass building the network out legitimately. My educated guess is that 20% of HNT mined every day are going to scammers mostly in china who have no intention to contribute to the network at all. They are thieves. The policy should be simple. Scammers know they are scamming and don't give a shit if you know or not because they have already paid themselves back 10 fold on their investments and know the HIP process is slow. You guy know who the rotten apples are. It takes 5 min looking to find 90% of the most obvious (12zMTvitnNNextEMAqYzkYTstyWzKLBMWaqKcLgsWvwyS1fTFtS) that rake in 750 HNT a month with 40 hotspots in a room. Scamming should not be tolerated at all the punishment should be swift and brutal for the thieves clearly stealing from the ecosystem. Their wallets should be frozen and hotspots removed permanently from the network. Do you really think they are gonna complain? The process you should be discussing is what charity their funds should be donated to. Brick their hotspots and make it abundantly clear that scammers will not be tolerated, ever. Examples: 14RV2sQpCJn5v57kKniM6nv1v315qYZjTcq7XNvQ7NVAL171nHq ; 14TR8XfoANXMEqx7mJC5MSqjEtyLZhhLHDNCPeohf3XR3sDN6Rr ; 133FAwjHkN6t47f7xWL8ZsCsytsYq4A8tQpTnUudmNXfBm9jxYt . They are watching you... (edited)
I abosolutely agree, I running every week from 1 location to another to let my hotspots working for already 4 months! I just look @ 1 scamming hotspot and he just earn this in 30 days with 1 hotspot, what I earn with 6! But I dont know that behind this 1 hotspot is 40 another, if I calculate the HNT / Hotspot than its like nearly 18.5 HNT , in this case, my hotspots works better than the scammers one. Another strorry would be if they got 750 HNT for each hotspot they use! If its like this, than really we have to stop this, its robbing the bank infront the owners faces.
passed 1
10k 1
18:28
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/1129Eaz73q4q4X3HULJ6hHRC5nLgGGH1N34gx8bsrVrJWitAyfXf also this one in the US , 6k in one month, welcome back 2020, maby he is on a Hex with a time slot passage..
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hiddeninja7 10/20/2021 8:01 PM
Can I report spoofers/gaming here?
👀 1
20:03
Also I looked at their transaction history..
20:05
This is absolutely insane
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likeroman
I abosolutely agree, I running every week from 1 location to another to let my hotspots working for already 4 months! I just look @ 1 scamming hotspot and he just earn this in 30 days with 1 hotspot, what I earn with 6! But I dont know that behind this 1 hotspot is 40 another, if I calculate the HNT / Hotspot than its like nearly 18.5 HNT , in this case, my hotspots works better than the scammers one. Another strorry would be if they got 750 HNT for each hotspot they use! If its like this, than really we have to stop this, its robbing the bank infront the owners faces.
Must have taken an army to install ALL of these, brought online and installed in span of 2 days about 8-10 days ago. It just doesn't happen like this. Not bad coverage over what looks like mountainous terrain, too. Well managed wallets with 30 miners per and not more than 24 hrs of earnings in any of them. How far are we from a process to address? The manufacturers are spinning up fast and this problem is getting worse, fast. IMO. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112pwBed8MdEXiCqevE74DJZhXvt8UxTeC2KGX7A4eDmURnUBYSu (edited)
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So we still slow rolling this vote or something?
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we need HIP40 a.s.a.p.
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@likeroman Omg this is all going into the same wallet. I live in Florida and their are 4 new miners here like a week ago they showed up and make 200 in a day and they send the hnt to the same wallet.
23:39
alwaysthinking 1
23:44
Over 700 thousand hnt
23:46
Dev team should burn all of these cheated hnt
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The best way to combat this problem is to have the miner complete shut off if it surpasses an certain amount of earnings in a single day
23:59
A miner on the best conditions without gaining the system will make 1 hnt on a good day so why not terminate the entire miner if it surpasses a certain amount of earnings in a single day
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hiddeninja7
A miner on the best conditions without gaining the system will make 1 hnt on a good day so why not terminate the entire miner if it surpasses a certain amount of earnings in a single day
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 12:14 AM
There are legit hotspots (with legit coverage) that make more than 1 HNT per day
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:17 AM
Obviously I'm not talking about legit hotspots 🤦‍♂️@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
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hiddeninja7
Obviously I'm not talking about legit hotspots 🤦‍♂️@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 1:18 AM
So how do you want to discern them from gaming ones?
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:19 AM
When you see things like this..
01:19
01:20
This miner only has 3 witnesses and all 3 are making an insane amount of hnt that's being transferred to the same wallet.
01:21
Not only that but I looked at this miner and those hnt are being transferred to the same wallet@likeroman https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/1129Eaz73q4q4X3HULJ6hHRC5nLgGGH1N34gx8bsrVrJWitAyfXf
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hiddeninja7
A miner on the best conditions without gaining the system will make 1 hnt on a good day so why not terminate the entire miner if it surpasses a certain amount of earnings in a single day
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 1:22 AM
I was referring to this, if you didn't knew
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:22 AM
Yeah no sh#t
facepalm 1
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hiddeninja7
Click to see attachment 🖼️
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:22 AM
That's an exchanges wallet (edited)
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:23 AM
Why would they transfer their miners earnings to an exchange wallet
🤦‍♂️ 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:23 AM
To cash out?
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:23 AM
It's just sitting there though..
01:24
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:24 AM
Yeah they do that
01:24
Then transfer X to a cold wallet every now and again
01:24
That's called a hot wallet for live buys/sells (edited)
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:25 AM
So you're saying these are legit miners making legit hnt?@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:25 AM
No I'm saying, that wallet is an exchanges
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:25 AM
Are you justifying these actions then? @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:26 AM
Not that they may/may not be legit
01:26
But screenshots aren't proof
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:26 AM
Okay lol lol at this yourself
01:26
13PBfQf1kaZPD3zN8LyoY5QtEDSZKJYZS5N7S5hZYaEz2Kh8znT
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:26 AM
Again
01:26
What proof do you have?
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:27 AM
Let me screen record it for ya and you can follow my steps yourself to verify lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:27 AM
Screen records of a website aren't proof
01:27
What proof do you have that they aren't legit?
01:27
If you think I'm against stopping gaming, read who's an author of this hip
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:28 AM
So when you're making 200+ in a single day that's not a clear enough indication for you? @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:29 AM
you mean one wallet is making 200+ in a day?
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:29 AM
Only having witnesses with 3 other miners that are doing the same exact thing isn't clear enough for ya
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:29 AM
i can show you a few like that
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hiddeninja7
Only having witnesses with 3 other miners that are doing the same exact thing isn't clear enough for ya
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:30 AM
it could be seen as a sign
01:30
but what proof
01:30
do you have that its not legit coverage?
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:30 AM
So you're saying since we can't prove it we can't do anything about it? @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:31 AM
no
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:31 AM
So if I started spoofing myself rn I can get away with it?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:31 AM
read the hip
01:31
and you'll see what im saying
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:31 AM
I have read the hip
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:32 AM
then you know, we did a basic look and had a floor set of what we'd consider abnormal earnings, and wrote a query
01:33
my personal belief is that question is too basic to be used, but it gives a good sign of what we need this hip for
01:34
another great view from @Anthonyra here, about why what we're seeing now isn't that big of a deal, compared to some previous hacks, and delay in resolution via HIP, one of the reasons we think this is important
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:34 AM
I see one of the Miners near me in that list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:34 AM
generally tho
01:34
its my belief changes to POC would be better than a denylist forever (edited)
01:35
but
01:35
In my mind we do need something to help improve the feeling everyones got "cheaters can get away with it"
01:36
POC changes like hip41/42 would be much better solutions to stop gaming generally, along with PocV11 hitting soon
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:36 AM
Yeah exactly I agree with. I wish the were a way we could reclaim the cheated gains
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:36 AM
not how blockchain works 😦
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:36 AM
Yeah ik sadly@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
01:37
Can't wait until PoV11 comes out
01:38
Everyone around me including myself, our earnings have dropped significantly ever since those 4 miners showed up out of no where (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:38 AM
we've got some great future hip's that'll make it even harder to cheat, hip22 and then there is a secure mappers one coming, that you can trust the mappers data, so hotspots can be mapped and seen if cheating (edited)
01:38
but untill we get to that point i think this hip's very valid.
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:40 AM
That sounds great 👍 @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io (edited)
01:45
That's absolutely insane though the same group of miners in my area in Florida is connected to the same miners mentioned by @likeroman as they're sending the earnings to the same wallet
01:46
Having over 700k hnt
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:47 AM
thats because they're sending it to the same exchange
01:47
its not a connected wallet 🙂
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 1:48 AM
It's also crazy because every single miner around me their earning have also dropped
01:51
Yes but before they send it to the exchange wallet they transfer hnt to one another @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 1:58 AM
Let's not mention any specific exchanges please :)
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:01 AM
Okay sorry I'm just trying to say is when you look at the Miner's transfer history you clearly see it's receiving hnt from the other miners and then he cashes it out onto his exchange wallet@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io (edited)
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02:03
They're just using the same exchange wallet and all the hnt is being transferred over to the same miner so I assumed that would be a clear indication (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:04 AM
Screenshots would never be proof
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:04 AM
We can't prove anything or do anything about it now
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:04 AM
I could accuse you if that logic stood
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:05 AM
The best we can do as a community is wait for the development team to do their best and figure out how we can identify and prevent future hacks
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hiddeninja7
The best we can do as a community is wait for the development team to do their best and figure out how we can identify and prevent future hacks
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:06 AM
The worst thing we can do is to rely on helium Inc to fix everything
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:06 AM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Acusse me of what? Gaming the system? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:06 AM
That's why it's so important for the community to submit hips
02:06
Submit code/find new detection methods
02:07
Improve PoC to better tackle gaming (edited)
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:09 AM
Then where can we report suspicious activity because so far everything I have mentioned seems to not prove anything just because it's a ss when you can easily search up the same miner since it has a unique "animal" name
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:10 AM
Info off explorer isn't proof of anything
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:10 AM
Can a miner legitimately earn that much hnt in a day? With just 3 or 0 witnesses?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:10 AM
There isn't any deny at this moment either
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hiddeninja7
Can a miner legitimately earn that much hnt in a day? With just 3 or 0 witnesses?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:10 AM
Yes
02:11
That's witnesses to their beacons
02:11
Not what they're hearing
02:11
They're hearing way more
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:12 AM
Okay so those miners are 4 miners are legitimately earning that much?
02:13
I have went through many others in my area and I have never seen that much earnings in a day so I assumed it was a red flag but I suppose I'm wrong so I apologize
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:13 AM
I'm not saying that
02:13
Again, I'm saying we don't have proof of anything so we can't just be accusing everyone at this stage
02:14
This hip was talked about with a floor of what is considered abnormal
02:14
We think, these should be checked and a deny list used to block them if voted as gaming by a committee of peers
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:15 AM
That's awesome because I see all four miners I mentioned in that list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:16 AM
The floors a bit basic and not that great but it's an indication and stops the "I want to report a hotspot" nature of a deny list
02:16
So only the worst actors are stopped
02:16
Not as a mechanism for everyone to accuse their neighbours
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:16 AM
Is there any way I can help and contribute by adding to this list or is it automatically put their by the validaters?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Not as a mechanism for everyone to accuse their neighbours
hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:16 AM
Okay that makes sense
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hiddeninja7
Is there any way I can help and contribute by adding to this list or is it automatically put their by the validaters?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:17 AM
The floor looks at earnings over a 24 hour period of a hotspot, and if that's more than the average hotspot earns in 14 days, it's on the list
02:17
My guess, and it's just my guess at this stage is that anything over the 5-6 mark is likely gaming
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:18 AM
Exactly what I was thinking@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:18 AM
You can see signs that they're gaming but I've seen that behaviour change already since documenting it here (edited)
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:19 AM
Is there anything the community can do to help against gaming?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 2:20 AM
Not yet, hip22 and secure mappers will be a big improvement, along with pocv11 coming soon
02:20
But mappers/22 is a way out yet I think
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 2:21 AM
That's great news I really appreciate your feedback @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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Reading everything above, sounds like this HIP is no longer being pursued. With this one and HIP 42 being sidelined, I guess the gaming folks have won.
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Anunnaaki
Reading everything above, sounds like this HIP is no longer being pursued. With this one and HIP 42 being sidelined, I guess the gaming folks have won.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 5:33 AM
it is being persued
05:33
update soon 🙂
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Well Big Mocha will be a hnt millionaire soon. Its weird how no one talks about em any more.
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hiddeninja7 10/21/2021 8:39 AM
Yes the update is going out on November first unless it's delayed again
08:41
@Fizzy Who's Big Mocha?
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hiddeninja7
@Fizzy Who's Big Mocha?
... Jay
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it is being persued
How will it work?
10:27
Will there be secure mappers?
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Pendraloth
How will it work?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:27 AM
eventually yes
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or secure hotspots for sale?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:27 AM
both
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so if a secure hotspot is next to a cluster of normal hotspots
10:27
and it can't talk to them
10:27
the normal hotspots won't earn ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:27 AM
thats the idea
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not sure about this approach 😄
10:28
what if i get a secure hotspot and put it in my basement
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:28 AM
if there are enough secure hotspots in an area
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:28 AM
they could secure standard diy to earn
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and make the whole neighborhood earn 0 HNT
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:28 AM
no, thats not how that would work
10:28
lol
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or there will be more secure hotspots required
10:29
in an area
10:29
to figure out if the normal hotspots around are legit
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:30 AM
yeah the idea (and this is very much out of hip40 talk btw) is that a secure hotspot that hears a normal hotspot could bless it, so for example if you had a secure hotspot, you could put unsecure hotspots around it and they could earn, as they have the trusted one that hears them, im not saying just 1 would be needed, but just giving you a general overview (edited)
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When do you think the secure hotspots will come?
10:31
and what company will produce them?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:31 AM
#hip-22-diy-concentrators
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will there be more companies?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:32 AM
there could be for sure, its only the secure lora card you'd need to buy from an approved source, you could build the rest yourself to run the software
10:33
the security chips in the RF card, so it cant be asked to sign anything, only what it hears
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so everyone could make mapping devices with a raspberry pi ?
10:33
🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/21/2021 10:33 AM
you dont need a raspberry pi to run a mapper, checkout #mappers-iot
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:36 PM
This HIP doesn't explain what "gaming" is. Is asserting a hotspot 5m away gaming? 50m? What about 5km? Will every fairspot hotspot that got strategically asserted to increase reward scale be shut down even though the Helium marketing/PR team celebrated that announcement? Or does gaming only matter when its too much? I'm not really seeing any guidelines on this.
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Max - Just Max
This HIP doesn't explain what "gaming" is. Is asserting a hotspot 5m away gaming? 50m? What about 5km? Will every fairspot hotspot that got strategically asserted to increase reward scale be shut down even though the Helium marketing/PR team celebrated that announcement? Or does gaming only matter when its too much? I'm not really seeing any guidelines on this.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 12:39 PM
You can assert your hotspot on the moon if it would be possible, just don't expect an rewards 😉
12:40
Gaming is about the manipulation of RF signals, to make PoC think that there is an acutal hotspot
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You can assert your hotspot on the moon if it would be possible, just don't expect an rewards 😉
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:40 PM
Yea but you can also assert your hotspot 20 miles away from its location and earn just fine
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Max - Just Max
Yea but you can also assert your hotspot 20 miles away from its location and earn just fine
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 12:41 PM
I'd disagree
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I'd disagree
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:41 PM
Have you tried it?
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Max - Just Max
Have you tried it?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 12:41 PM
You made the point, so you should prove it
12:42
but regarding RSSI and SNR (which will be dropped soon tho), you won't earn much
12:42
and get a ton of invalids
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:45 PM
The reassert for this one didn't go through. It's doing perfectly fine
12:46
its not 20 miles, more like ~15km but the point still stands
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:46 PM
Yea
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 12:48 PM
You are already getting invalids from PoC
12:48
But your coverage outweighs them
12:48
which is fair
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:48 PM
RSSI and SNR are a terrible metric. On the other hand there are hotspots that communicate tower to tower over 40 km away from each other, both in the exact correct location using lat long that continually are invalid because it doesn't believe there can be so little noise compared to the signal
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Max - Just Max
RSSI and SNR are a terrible metric. On the other hand there are hotspots that communicate tower to tower over 40 km away from each other, both in the exact correct location using lat long that continually are invalid because it doesn't believe there can be so little noise compared to the signal
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 12:49 PM
Thats why SNR will be dropped with pocv11
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Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:49 PM
It gets a few but its been in the new location for over a month now
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Max - Just Max
It gets a few but its been in the new location for over a month now
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/21/2021 12:49 PM
Interesting, curious to see how pocv11 will effect it
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Interesting, curious to see how pocv11 will effect it
Max - Just Max 10/21/2021 12:50 PM
Same, leaving it as a test
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Interesting, curious to see how pocv11 will effect it
Edited: (removed inaccurate estimate noted below) More depressing than interesting, actually. Very soon it wont be so small - these 400+ were all placed within the last two weeks, most within the last 8 days. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112KkBnNF3fvky9dtNAebJxwHHcYDsT3LWH2jLRPWgK5E8VnMjej (edited)
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TysonsTech
Edited: (removed inaccurate estimate noted below) More depressing than interesting, actually. Very soon it wont be so small - these 400+ were all placed within the last two weeks, most within the last 8 days. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112KkBnNF3fvky9dtNAebJxwHHcYDsT3LWH2jLRPWgK5E8VnMjej (edited)
wildly inaccurate, please don't come up with this stuff unless you have data to support it, otherwise you're just misleading anyone who might read it without better context
13:56
this channel is also for discussing HIP40, not highlighting clusters, or hysteria around rewards
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@capcom 10-4 on the discord in this channel but im not nearly as concerned about rewards as I am about the spreading disturbingly high percentage of everyone that used to want to be legit asking me how they do it "like the ones that are gaming" and honesty, it's pissing me off, man. I'm here for the long run, to build the peoples global network and i see the greatness in what the community are building. I know it's community driven and decentralized and open source and all that goodness but I'm tryin' real hard to understand coming from the operations side of corporate structure. I'd knock the very top offenders offline by MAC in the router just to get their attention, let them sweat, and see who calls. Bet few will and word will spread. IMO the problem seems to be snowballing with the recent massive increase in the number of makers actually shipping miners. What is wrong with simply instituting a warning at purchase to all makers to discorage gaming and spoofing, with lawyerly language, like "We know who you are and will put you in timeout - so don't even try?" At least as preparations are made to address this with a legit HIP. Do you have data on what percentage of say the last 10k deployed are where they say they are?
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TysonsTech
@capcom 10-4 on the discord in this channel but im not nearly as concerned about rewards as I am about the spreading disturbingly high percentage of everyone that used to want to be legit asking me how they do it "like the ones that are gaming" and honesty, it's pissing me off, man. I'm here for the long run, to build the peoples global network and i see the greatness in what the community are building. I know it's community driven and decentralized and open source and all that goodness but I'm tryin' real hard to understand coming from the operations side of corporate structure. I'd knock the very top offenders offline by MAC in the router just to get their attention, let them sweat, and see who calls. Bet few will and word will spread. IMO the problem seems to be snowballing with the recent massive increase in the number of makers actually shipping miners. What is wrong with simply instituting a warning at purchase to all makers to discorage gaming and spoofing, with lawyerly language, like "We know who you are and will put you in timeout - so don't even try?" At least as preparations are made to address this with a legit HIP. Do you have data on what percentage of say the last 10k deployed are where they say they are?
we're going to share some stats on this sooner than later and fix a few things in the meantime
❤️ 2
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hiddeninja7
Click to see attachment 🖼️
I agree with @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io that screenshots can’t prove that gaming is taking place, but how in the hell can one hotspot make 7hnt a day with only 3 witnesses?
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Abducted51
I agree with @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io that screenshots can’t prove that gaming is taking place, but how in the hell can one hotspot make 7hnt a day with only 3 witnesses?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/21/2021 11:52 PM
Step one: Understand that the bulk of rewards come from you witnessing beacons, not from having other witness your beacons.
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Yeah I get that but still seems off that a hotspot is in a location good enough to earn that much from witnessing others while only being witnessed by 3 🤷‍♂️
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Abducted51
Yeah I get that but still seems off that a hotspot is in a location good enough to earn that much from witnessing others while only being witnessed by 3 🤷‍♂️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/22/2021 12:01 AM
Those rewards are not location 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those rewards are not location 😉
So the location is likely spoofed?
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Abducted51
So the location is likely spoofed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/22/2021 12:07 AM
spoofing location does not give those kind of rewards
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Ok I’m lost now 😂 not from being witnessed, location not spoofed, not from being in a great location. What’s left? Super user dev account ?😂
00:15
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Abducted51
Ok I’m lost now 😂 not from being witnessed, location not spoofed, not from being in a great location. What’s left? Super user dev account ?😂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/22/2021 12:16 AM
exploit cheating
00:16
witness receipt duplication/modification
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Wow, is this common and being addressed?
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Abducted51
Wow, is this common and being addressed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/22/2021 12:17 AM
No and yes
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Sucks for genuine users to see rewards decreasing rapidly while this is possible
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 10/22/2021 12:18 AM
You're literally in a hip channel for that very thing (one of 4 HIPs right now 😉 )
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passed 1
00:18
HIP 22, 40, 41, 42
00:19
(41 will get a channel tomorrow)
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Cheers I’ll have a read through those when I’m home from work 👍
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hiddeninja7 10/22/2021 2:35 AM
I belive they may be tampering with the code as 3 out of the four miners are raks and raks are raspberry pis with micro sd cards in them so it would be very easy to tamper with the code and one miner is another company and it's the only one that has no witness so it's possibly being used as the transmitter sending challenges rather than receiving and all the raks are duplicating it in some way?
02:39
Theirs no real way to know exactly how they're doing it though
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@capcom Thank you, sir. I'm not ordinarily the squeaky wheel but rather strive to lubricate what appears stuck than venturing less concerned of diplomatic solutions. I'll blame my emotional blurb and lack of data on my Italian side and close this thread with our mission should we fully accept it and execute should enable your more future-focused vision. To that end, and on a more positive note, I'd say call Elon and propose you two work on a mutually beneficial mesh networking algorithm between Helium and Starlink! Surely they can afford a few data credits! And who else is going to have the same tremendous global footprint we do with a robust blockchain scaled and ready to manage LoRa, 5G and other multi-protocol mesh communications? Excited for the future as we clear these bumps in the road. Thank you for your guidance and leadership. - Gregg
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Is this a useful place to drop links to suspected gamers, to help develop criteria for the denylist? Or do are y'all already aware of all the methods and have enough examples?
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dcballers
Is this a useful place to drop links to suspected gamers, to help develop criteria for the denylist? Or do are y'all already aware of all the methods and have enough examples?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/22/2021 6:39 AM
We have enough examples
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hiddeninja7 10/22/2021 9:27 PM
We the peoples network shall remember these unfortunate explotes as the dark ages until then we shall thrive to make our network more secure and safe for everyone 🔥
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Take a look at this wallet: 13tznc5UN5TteifRnxJbCtnmjYtFNxiZb3nEnaiyunnTw3g4ZbS
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10:02
The earnings of 52 "gaming" hotspots are being transferred into it.
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it's pretty sad that of the 16+ hotspots near me only 2 of them are legit
11:17
this is mine (legit) https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112j39FTQYgcfAr3tF7bStnfxSYccsyfe56AuteuY6NZprRndZj3 you can see i should be getting WAY more witnesses
11:19
can we get a HIP proposal to report people on the API?
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Codeman
this is mine (legit) https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112j39FTQYgcfAr3tF7bStnfxSYccsyfe56AuteuY6NZprRndZj3 you can see i should be getting WAY more witnesses
A while back someone did analysis on average witness distance and it’s barley 2km so it’s not a sign at all of gaming that you don’t witness the hotspots that are 3km+ away. I am working on a. community app for reporting suspicious hotspots but important to realize that reporting does not equal any sort of banning. It will merely be a way to share data that can then be used to potentially build anti-gaming features
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When is the vote for this HIP? I have been out and haven't seen any updates on Github.
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I really want to vote for this!.
00:30
unfair how people are gaming the system, 20 HNT per day from 1 hotspot how is that even possible with todays growth. this is worse than people spoofing their locations.
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VodoBaas1
When is the vote for this HIP? I have been out and haven't seen any updates on Github.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/25/2021 1:31 AM
When we submit the update, had great feedback, really refined the hip, just reworking it at the moment, almost done
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
When we submit the update, had great feedback, really refined the hip, just reworking it at the moment, almost done
Thanks for the reply. I know you and elon have been busy with it and appreciate the work you've done.
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Question about the process in this HIP. What happens when dewi (or whoever investigates) investigates and determines it is legitimate and not gaming? Would this be recorded somewhere? Will be interesting to see how that plays out from an optics perspective (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/25/2021 5:39 AM
the idea is they would post meeting results and a time frame given for folks to appeal before its pushed to the list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the idea is they would post meeting results and a time frame given for folks to appeal before its pushed to the list
So guilty until proven innocent? Meaning if the hotspot owner doesn’t appeal for one reason or another, it gets added to the deny list? Is there an expectation that the group responsible for merging would do their own investigation and decide one way or another themselves regardless of an appeal?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/25/2021 5:42 AM
Ignore the floor, were saying the committee selects, investigates and then super majority agree to add it to the list
05:43
The floor just being an interesting metric to see what sort of gamings there, but way too basic
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Ah ok so committee run beginning to end, not a community reported list?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/25/2021 5:45 AM
The Dewi feedback was that this power should be voted on every so often to see if it's ready to be removed
05:45
For example, say we hit adoption of hip22 hotspots and secure mappers
05:45
There might not be a case for a deny list any more
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makes sense. I like the committee run end to end solution better for a denylist. Thanks @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io !
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How to submit a hip? Every day 90 percent of my becons are trashed because of relayed and suboptimal challengers or both. Most of my becons are now zero with the occasional getting through. I’m now down to 1/2 hnt every 3 days because of this. Something has to change
07:29
And I have 3 miners going
07:29
That’s 1/2 hnt combined. This needs addressed
07:31
We need a hip that stops relayed or suboptimal miners from participating in challenges. It’s not fair to the ones that’s have spent countless hours getting there setup right
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07:34
This would also give incentive for them to fix there setup or move on
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ChrisFox
How to submit a hip? Every day 90 percent of my becons are trashed because of relayed and suboptimal challengers or both. Most of my becons are now zero with the occasional getting through. I’m now down to 1/2 hnt every 3 days because of this. Something has to change
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/25/2021 7:40 AM
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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ChrisFox
We need a hip that stops relayed or suboptimal miners from participating in challenges. It’s not fair to the ones that’s have spent countless hours getting there setup right
This will be irrelevant very quickly since challenge construction is being moved to validators and hotspots are all being upgraded to light hotspots. These will solve the issues you mention
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rawrmaan
This will be irrelevant very quickly since challenge construction is being moved to validators and hotspots are all being upgraded to light hotspots. These will solve the issues you mention
Define "very quickly"
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molano
Define "very quickly"
Actually it's already irrelevant since light hotspots are on the roadmap
16:46
Relayed hotspots soon won't exist. The work is already being done
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molano
Define "very quickly"
This timeline suggests 'very quickly' means in about a years time, give or take https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots/
This document describes the architecture and technical roadmap planned for
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rawrmaan
This will be irrelevant very quickly since challenge construction is being moved to validators and hotspots are all being upgraded to light hotspots. These will solve the issues you mention
'Upgraded'.
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Yes, that too.... Tbf though, I had been pondering how long it would take everyones hotspots to break due to the blockchain growing larger than their available storage. So avoids that future problem I guess.
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Ninlilizi
Yes, that too.... Tbf though, I had been pondering how long it would take everyones hotspots to break due to the blockchain growing larger than their available storage. So avoids that future problem I guess.
yes, also will be very few reads/writes, so sdcard wear will also be a non-issue. we went for a pretty ambitious architecture initially, unfortunately it's breaking at this scale
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capcom
yes, also will be very few reads/writes, so sdcard wear will also be a non-issue. we went for a pretty ambitious architecture initially, unfortunately it's breaking at this scale
Wondering how the validators, who will be your spof in the architecture, will cope with 200k hotspots pinging them constantly. Not to mention 1m hotspots later on...
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molano
Wondering how the validators, who will be your spof in the architecture, will cope with 200k hotspots pinging them constantly. Not to mention 1m hotspots later on...
we're getting off topic, but spof x 2722. that shouldn't be burdensome
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capcom
we're getting off topic, but spof x 2722. that shouldn't be burdensome
Indeed off topic, but very much interested in the infrastructure side of things. 2722 validators running in parallel i assume, based on election. So those validators change over time when others are elected. Where will hotspots connect to to initiate a session since it can't be to the validator itself? A load balancer?
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we'll release an architecture diagram about how this works, but you can take it to #gateway-development or #blockchain-development and someone from the team might answer there
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I keep seeing the term "gaming" "gamer " gaming hotspot " what's this mean ? They earn more?
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HypeMan
unfair how people are gaming the system, 20 HNT per day from 1 hotspot how is that even possible with todays growth. this is worse than people spoofing their locations.
Deleted User 10/27/2021 6:59 AM
Can you please share and example?
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MachTurkey
I keep seeing the term "gaming" "gamer " gaming hotspot " what's this mean ? They earn more?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 10/27/2021 7:28 AM
They game the system
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MachTurkey
I keep seeing the term "gaming" "gamer " gaming hotspot " what's this mean ? They earn more?
It means gamer/gaming is a polite term for thief or cheater. These scofflaws are using techniques of witnessing miners that do not expand or provide realistic coverage for the network. Yes, they are earning more than miners who are not cheating.
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Carl-bot BOT 10/27/2021 2:14 PM
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
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That ia actually insane. One of them has over 3500 beacons in the last 7 days and over $5k in earnings in the past 10! This really needs to be stopped in any way possible,
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that's only in like 5 seconds of copy/pasting
14:51
ONLY for the guys connected to me.
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Yeah, it's getting silly. There must be thousands of them doing this now, we keep hearing that it's actually a tiny issue and makes next to no difference to the mining rewards but we're talking literally millions of dollars of HTN every month being scammed from the system and it only looks to be getting worse, I dont understand why there isnt more urgency to stop it to be honest.
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Muzza
Yeah, it's getting silly. There must be thousands of them doing this now, we keep hearing that it's actually a tiny issue and makes next to no difference to the mining rewards but we're talking literally millions of dollars of HTN every month being scammed from the system and it only looks to be getting worse, I dont understand why there isnt more urgency to stop it to be honest.
just to put this in context there are only ~25 or so hotspots earning over 5 HNT/day, so certainly not thousands, and certainly not millions of $
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capcom
just to put this in context there are only ~25 or so hotspots earning over 5 HNT/day, so certainly not thousands, and certainly not millions of $
For real? Less than 25.... and the gentleman above has just happened to find 5 of them on his doorstep in a few minutes?
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Muzza
For real? Less than 25.... and the gentleman above has just happened to find 5 of them on his doorstep in a few minutes?
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Ok, fair enough, I wasnt aware of that site and I suppose it's good to know but they dont have to be earning 5+ a day each to be screwing the system, there's upteen deployments of huge groups of hotspots in china that are also gaming the system, not massive amounts each per day but when they have that many deployed it adds up to huge amounts each month.
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Muzza
Ok, fair enough, I wasnt aware of that site and I suppose it's good to know but they dont have to be earning 5+ a day each to be screwing the system, there's upteen deployments of huge groups of hotspots in china that are also gaming the system, not massive amounts each per day but when they have that many deployed it adds up to huge amounts each month.
i think without quantifying it you're just guessing pretty wildly at these numbers. we'll probably try and help quantify this for people
15:25
it's easy for it to feel like thousands, when it's really 25
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capcom
i think without quantifying it you're just guessing pretty wildly at these numbers. we'll probably try and help quantify this for people
And you're very likely right, it's just human nature, I've invested a lot of effort into my own setup https://www.heliumtracker.io/hotspots/172092 (which, according to this site ranks me 2200 odd, is that really correct??? out of 260k hotspots, im 2200 odd?) and just feel that there should be means to shut down the people that are obviously gaming it. Anyway, thanks.
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im actually not sure about the rankings on this site, but your earnings look pretty solid to me
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Muzza
And you're very likely right, it's just human nature, I've invested a lot of effort into my own setup https://www.heliumtracker.io/hotspots/172092 (which, according to this site ranks me 2200 odd, is that really correct??? out of 260k hotspots, im 2200 odd?) and just feel that there should be means to shut down the people that are obviously gaming it. Anyway, thanks.
Steve (dewigo.com) 10/27/2021 4:24 PM
this is the true earnings curve in the last month: https://twitter.com/DeWiGoSite/status/1450855510152863747
If you earned less than 6 $HNT last month you're in the bottom half. Time to think about antenna upgrades & location deals. @helium #ThePeoplesNetwork
16:24
more than 50HNT/mo is like 99%+
01:54
you cant even proof that they are spoofing or hacking just by looking at explorer...
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Goyasapiens 10/28/2021 9:43 PM
How to nominate some miners to get blacklisted or removed as they are clearly spoofing. Take a look at Bangkok where overnight appeared hundreds of RAK miners in perfect formation that are only whitnesing each other and earning more than any local with 1.2Db antennas and on 0 meters elevation. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14WWBQdJqeNjfUiWvhGkhKz94oL9HruaFvhHiVyNr1nBR7TLgFv This cluster has 20 of them but there are more with 50 and more linked to the same wallet and moved there from China.
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Goyasapiens
How to nominate some miners to get blacklisted or removed as they are clearly spoofing. Take a look at Bangkok where overnight appeared hundreds of RAK miners in perfect formation that are only whitnesing each other and earning more than any local with 1.2Db antennas and on 0 meters elevation. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14WWBQdJqeNjfUiWvhGkhKz94oL9HruaFvhHiVyNr1nBR7TLgFv This cluster has 20 of them but there are more with 50 and more linked to the same wallet and moved there from China.
Refer from Helium white paper, those spoofing hotspot is "not helium hotspot" because it's not provide helium network coverage. Hope this HIP will be vote and implement soon. https://ibb.co/sbY3zjp
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Guys this channel is to discuss the HIP itself not spoofing or particular groups of hotspots. We’ll announce the vote for this HIP whenever the author is ready
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capcom
Guys this channel is to discuss the HIP itself not spoofing or particular groups of hotspots. We’ll announce the vote for this HIP whenever the author is ready
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/29/2021 6:44 AM
Just awaiting feedback for the changes
06:46
Mostly done, I need to better explain Anthony's meerkat point with how slow hips are but
06:46
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to BFGNeil/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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creating a deny list "court" , increased centralization, i know is well intentioned but the implementation in going to be a nightmare. what's next, clawback of previous earnings, freezing accounts? Still failing to understand why improved POC rules wouldn't address the same issues. This seems like a drastic, last step, if gaming cannot be addressed in other ways.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/29/2021 9:19 AM
That's not how blockchain works you can't freeze/clawback
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what's stopping a gamer, from having 5 backups for each gaming hotspot (when we're at $150 / hotspot?), how fast is this committee going to be able to act? While POC rules would work for every hotspot, including future hotspots on the network.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/29/2021 9:20 AM
Cost, stock and supply levels globally
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That's not how blockchain works you can't freeze/clawback
Tether has frozen addresses, why couldn't code be changed to not include transactions from "frozen" addresses? I'd never want this, but it's possible. The ETH hard fork after the DAO hack was essentially a clawback (edited)
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@E R I K Were you here when Meerkat happened? This isn't meant to be used on hotspots that mine better than yours or someone else's... this is for exploits / bugs / hacks that would be detrimental to the helium blockchain or economy.. Take a look at this graph, green was HNT earned prior to HIP submission and yellow is the HNT earned during development. https://etl.dewi.org/question/518-dapper-hickory-meerkat-timeline
09:27
This should exist but never be used... but if there's a situation like Meerkat again well we can protect the community
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That's not how blockchain works you can't freeze/clawback
you absolutely could - for example a next (bad) step would be to deny any payment txns coming to/from gaming wallets. validators can do that just the same way they would drop poc transactions from the denylist
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I'd probably be for an emergency deny list for major issues, but if a gamer is making 10 HNT / day I wouldn't put this in the same category....
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E R I K
I'd probably be for an emergency deny list for major issues, but if a gamer is making 10 HNT / day I wouldn't put this in the same category....
This was originally brought up as a gamers denylist but I've really wanted to push it more to an emergency one. Now it's all relative. If the current gamer was able to get 500 raks from MNTD drop and did what they're doing now they'd be earning 5000 HNT/day to 10,000 HNT/day
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Anthonyra
This was originally brought up as a gamers denylist but I've really wanted to push it more to an emergency one. Now it's all relative. If the current gamer was able to get 500 raks from MNTD drop and did what they're doing now they'd be earning 5000 HNT/day to 10,000 HNT/day
I'm not going to argue against something to stop a major gamer like that example. I'm seeing 7 hotspots that made over 10 HNT in the past 24 hours. Maybe a bad analogy, not sure if you are familiar w/ the AMT (alternative minimum tax), was created since a handful of people (tax gamers?!) were paying no tax. Now millions of people are subject to it..... Just hope something like this would be used sparingly, in extreme cases.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 10/29/2021 9:39 AM
I do wish there was a better way to automatically pick and create the list, thats the big issue this hip has (edited)
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E R I K
creating a deny list "court" , increased centralization, i know is well intentioned but the implementation in going to be a nightmare. what's next, clawback of previous earnings, freezing accounts? Still failing to understand why improved POC rules wouldn't address the same issues. This seems like a drastic, last step, if gaming cannot be addressed in other ways.
i doubt there's anyone arguing that it shouldn't be done via poc rules, it's just not always possible quickly, and sometimes quite frankly impossible other than via human intervention
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Thanks for the convo everybody, making more sense to me. Sounds like the bar is intended to be high. I'd probably add that to the summary of the HIP....
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10:01
While the situation with regards to Proof-of-Coverage (POC) gaming has improved and additional enhancements are intended, we need a backstop prevention mechanism that allows us to quickly respond to obvious, serious gaming and spoofing situations as they materialize. Improvements to POC rules take time to implement and sometimes situations arise that are difficult or impossible to addresss without human interaction. This HIP is not intended to address small scale gaming or spoofing and only is intended to be used when serious gaming is suspected.
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Steve (dewigo.com) 10/31/2021 8:56 AM
here's some fresh fuel to keep this hip going, panther onborded 3000+ chinese hotspots in the span of about 12 hours while the US is asleep. all very sus. https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/4-network-overview
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Steve (dewigo.com)
here's some fresh fuel to keep this hip going, panther onborded 3000+ chinese hotspots in the span of about 12 hours while the US is asleep. all very sus. https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/4-network-overview
I bet they are all legit. Especially since this is banned in China.
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Anunnaaki
I bet they are all legit. Especially since this is banned in China.
Steve (dewigo.com) 10/31/2021 11:31 AM
I want this to be true but no way to know I think
11:32
The new Panthers are supplementing all the massive 1.0 clusters in central china
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It's indeed very strange that 3000+ devices get asserted on the same day IMHO. Hopefully somebody can chime in and explain this? On the other hand, it has been said that POCv11 will put an end on these type of clusters. (but not on the other type of gaming)
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molano
It's indeed very strange that 3000+ devices get asserted on the same day IMHO. Hopefully somebody can chime in and explain this? On the other hand, it has been said that POCv11 will put an end on these type of clusters. (but not on the other type of gaming)
Steve (dewigo.com) 10/31/2021 3:12 PM
PoC11 will make no dent in cheating, it's a widespread misconception that PoC11 goes after gamers. PoC11 is a compliance update and secondarily a usability update.
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Steve (dewigo.com)
PoC11 will make no dent in cheating, it's a widespread misconception that PoC11 goes after gamers. PoC11 is a compliance update and secondarily a usability update.
True, but the Chinese clusters make advantage of rssi etc, while pocv11 will use FSPL. I have been told it will impact those type of clusters.
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molano
True, but the Chinese clusters make advantage of rssi etc, while pocv11 will use FSPL. I have been told it will impact those type of clusters.
Steve (dewigo.com) 10/31/2021 3:15 PM
FSPL is calc based on tx/rx gain, as is RSSI. Its all the same gaming. (edited)
15:15
PoC11 gets rid of SNR in exchange for what can be argued are more parameters in which to tune a gaming cluster
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Steve (dewigo.com)
FSPL is calc based on tx/rx gain, as is RSSI. Its all the same gaming. (edited)
Capcom once said: "if it's not physically possible, it will fail." Those cluster are not physically possible, so I assume it will fail. That's all I know (edited)
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molano
Capcom once said: "if it's not physically possible, it will fail." Those cluster are not physically possible, so I assume it will fail. That's all I know (edited)
Steve (dewigo.com) 10/31/2021 3:16 PM
Capcom also said PoC11 is not an anti gaming update. the not physically possible statement assumes honest actors
15:17
I'm not anti PoC11, just trying to dispel the unrealistic expectations people placed on it
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Steve (dewigo.com)
Capcom also said PoC11 is not an anti gaming update. the not physically possible statement assumes honest actors
I understand. And I agree. I am far from a specialist. I do know that it will not stop the gaming everybody is talking about now with the huge witnessing and no beacons. But I am/was under the impression it can/will stop the cluster-type of gaming.
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It shouldn’t make any difference, at best for a few hours at most until anyone manipulating the data can update their manipulations
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capcom
It shouldn’t make any difference, at best for a few hours at most until anyone manipulating the data can update their manipulations
OK, understood. Pitty however.
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It is, just not what the update is for
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capcom
just to put this in context there are only ~25 or so hotspots earning over 5 HNT/day, so certainly not thousands, and certainly not millions of $
How do you calculate that? there's 240 new ones in BKK in 2 weeks they are averaging about $14/day that's $102,857 per MONTH from just 1 group of 'Gamers' in just 1 new area !! Correction, there are exactly 200 new units (out of 241) which all became active on the 20th oct 2021 (12 days ago) divided through 8 wallets, and ALL 200 were synced to the network on that SAME DAY in Bangkok a city of 14million people. These are all perfectly spaced (some in the middle of the wide Chaipraya RIVER!) over a land area of 28kms x 20.5kms in a city famous for its heavily congested traffic. I have an apartment in the heart of the city and another residence at the beach and there's not any chance I'd consider attending 3-4 locations in Bangkok on one day let alone 200! It's just physically impossible even if there's no traffic at all! You couldn't do it with a helicopter. The other interesting issue here is that ALL these 200 new miners (apparently originating from China) sync and witness immediately on the same day at ground level in dense New York-Like skyscraper CBD of Bangkok with 1.2DBi antennae, where they do NOT sync to other units that have been established for months. This is a large and very obvious example of Gaming the system. I now have a spreadsheet if anyone's interested. I know that Helium can only go so far, but there must be some way to protect the integrity of the system, because who's going to get interested in investing in this HnT mining when it's so easy for the Gamers to get away with cheating everyone else?? (edited)
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Goyasapiens
How to nominate some miners to get blacklisted or removed as they are clearly spoofing. Take a look at Bangkok where overnight appeared hundreds of RAK miners in perfect formation that are only whitnesing each other and earning more than any local with 1.2Db antennas and on 0 meters elevation. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14WWBQdJqeNjfUiWvhGkhKz94oL9HruaFvhHiVyNr1nBR7TLgFv This cluster has 20 of them but there are more with 50 and more linked to the same wallet and moved there from China.
Actually, I have counted over 200 of them! and you are exactly correct, they all sprang up 2 weeks ago and are all witnessing only each other (NOT the established devices in the area) earning approx $100-200 in that time, where previous local devices that have been operating 3+ months only earn $10-50 per MONTH!!
whiskey 1
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Maybe the best deterrent against gaming would be to report the most egregious "gamer" (i.e., the owner of 22 of the current top 25 earning hotspots, and more than 50 "gaming" hotspots in the U.S. which have earned around $200,000 since September) to the FTC and SEC for investigation for possible criminal activity (hacking/unauthorized altering of data). If found guilty of violating the Computer Fraud & Abuse Act, the gamer would be required to make full restitution for their ill-gotten gains, have a felony on their record, and potentially spend 5-10 years in prison.
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i'd love to put an excel spreadsheet of the suspected gamers w/ locations, wallets, accounts to run through gephi... see all the connected wallets and all that goodness gained from such visualizations.
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So I just looked at a 12 hour period of HNT being funneled into JoeCrypto's "gamer" wallet: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13tznc5UN5TteifRnxJbCtnmjYtFNxiZb3nEnaiyunnTw3g4ZbS During the 12 hour period, this wallet received earnings from wallets of 59 different "high-earning" hotspots asserted/spoofed across the U.S. (13 asserted in Illinois, 10 asserted in Utah, 6 asserted in Georgia, 5 asserted in Minnesota, 4 asserted in Virginia, 4 asserted in Florida, etc.). 58 of the 59 hotspots have not beaconed in the last 5 days. Only one hotspot, Kind Metal Lark, beacons.
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roidrage
So I just looked at a 12 hour period of HNT being funneled into JoeCrypto's "gamer" wallet: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13tznc5UN5TteifRnxJbCtnmjYtFNxiZb3nEnaiyunnTw3g4ZbS During the 12 hour period, this wallet received earnings from wallets of 59 different "high-earning" hotspots asserted/spoofed across the U.S. (13 asserted in Illinois, 10 asserted in Utah, 6 asserted in Georgia, 5 asserted in Minnesota, 4 asserted in Virginia, 4 asserted in Florida, etc.). 58 of the 59 hotspots have not beaconed in the last 5 days. Only one hotspot, Kind Metal Lark, beacons.
somejunkray 11/04/2021 1:42 PM
Lots of send and receives in there. I was clicking around and found this guy: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13PBfQf1kaZPD3zN8LyoY5QtEDSZKJYZS5N7S5hZYaEz2Kh8znT Hard to say what any of these transactions are though.
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That is an exchange wallet. By clicking on the payer of the received activity of the gamer wallet, you'll have the option to see the hotspot associated with the wallet/payer. At this point, he's probably "made" well more than $200,000 in HNT since mid-September as his number of gaming hotspots are growing by the day.
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Guys - again, this is a channel to discuss the HIP itself and changes and improvements to be made to it. Not for general detective work. Maybe #poc-discussion?
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BareFootRadioZMoneyC 11/11/2021 10:05 PM
Nice work roid
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22:06
It gets me thinking! Good work!
22:07
I have a sneaking suspicion it’s I heart radio
22:09
Just a joke though
22:09
Settle down
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BareFootRadioZMoneyC
I have a sneaking suspicion it’s I heart radio
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/11/2021 10:37 PM
You're wayyyy in the wrong channel. lol
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capcom
Guys - again, this is a channel to discuss the HIP itself and changes and improvements to be made to it. Not for general detective work. Maybe #poc-discussion?
Maybe we need a detective channel. And perhaps also "detective announcements" so that Mods can announce new clues. We can decentralize the way investigations work in the Helium network. (This is "VERY" important) 😉 (edited)
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roidrage
Maybe the best deterrent against gaming would be to report the most egregious "gamer" (i.e., the owner of 22 of the current top 25 earning hotspots, and more than 50 "gaming" hotspots in the U.S. which have earned around $200,000 since September) to the FTC and SEC for investigation for possible criminal activity (hacking/unauthorized altering of data). If found guilty of violating the Computer Fraud & Abuse Act, the gamer would be required to make full restitution for their ill-gotten gains, have a felony on their record, and potentially spend 5-10 years in prison.
Buddy this is crypto we in wild west
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i know it's maybe not the right place to post here, but in other channels i got no reaction, a few days ago a hotspot popped up near mine, https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11reB6jm631qyaAGJ3rsiChHLw47EUMPgf6LXtARAePzRjSnsmP this one. i noticed he pulls in 2.2 hnt a day but it's relayed, position on map is not legit, look at some other hotspot from the guy and same thing over, maybe someone can take a look at it. to see if it's legit or not
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jobo245
i know it's maybe not the right place to post here, but in other channels i got no reaction, a few days ago a hotspot popped up near mine, https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11reB6jm631qyaAGJ3rsiChHLw47EUMPgf6LXtARAePzRjSnsmP this one. i noticed he pulls in 2.2 hnt a day but it's relayed, position on map is not legit, look at some other hotspot from the guy and same thing over, maybe someone can take a look at it. to see if it's legit or not
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/15/2021 1:43 PM
If you know it's not the right place, when why post? (edited)
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i tried in poc discussion i tried in general chat both no reaction
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jobo245
i tried in poc discussion i tried in general chat both no reaction
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/15/2021 2:08 PM
Not a reason to post in the wrong channels. 🙂 (edited)
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jobo245
i know it's maybe not the right place to post here, but in other channels i got no reaction, a few days ago a hotspot popped up near mine, https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11reB6jm631qyaAGJ3rsiChHLw47EUMPgf6LXtARAePzRjSnsmP this one. i noticed he pulls in 2.2 hnt a day but it's relayed, position on map is not legit, look at some other hotspot from the guy and same thing over, maybe someone can take a look at it. to see if it's legit or not
Looks like a good reason to move forward with this HIP-40. Stop the cheaters from stealing rewards
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zzeddd
Looks like a good reason to move forward with this HIP-40. Stop the cheaters from stealing rewards
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/15/2021 3:58 PM
Yeah, I need to check in with @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io to see if he needs help getting the last bits wrapped up so get can get to a vote. 🙂
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badassthomas 11/15/2021 7:53 PM
I keep getting Assert Location Transaction Failures how do I fix this
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badassthomas
I keep getting Assert Location Transaction Failures how do I fix this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/15/2021 7:56 PM
this isn't a support channel.
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badassthomas 11/15/2021 7:56 PM
Ok I’m new to this thank you
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/15/2021 7:57 PM
The blockchain is having issues. #announcements
19:57
Just going to have to wait
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, I need to check in with @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io to see if he needs help getting the last bits wrapped up so get can get to a vote. 🙂
Sounds good, thanks
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I have a few questions about this HIP. Would this deny list apply to individual hotspots or would that be extended to all hotspots for a particular owner (by committee emergency procedure described in open question 6)? Would there be any sort of appeal process if a hotspot or owner were placed on the deny list? It's been a while since I onboarded my hotspot and I can't remember if I agreed to any terms and conditions when doing so. Is there any language in the terms and conditions (assuming there was such an agreement) regarding this gaming? Is it possible that gamers could have legal recourse for being excluded from the reward system if they didn't violate any agreement? (edited)
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UncleSteve
I have a few questions about this HIP. Would this deny list apply to individual hotspots or would that be extended to all hotspots for a particular owner (by committee emergency procedure described in open question 6)? Would there be any sort of appeal process if a hotspot or owner were placed on the deny list? It's been a while since I onboarded my hotspot and I can't remember if I agreed to any terms and conditions when doing so. Is there any language in the terms and conditions (assuming there was such an agreement) regarding this gaming? Is it possible that gamers could have legal recourse for being excluded from the reward system if they didn't violate any agreement? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 11/24/2021 8:16 AM
it would be applied on a per hotspot basis if this hip were to go ahead
08:17
as to terms and conditions, no , there is nothing of that sort at the moment but theres also not anything promising earning from it, so i doubt there would be legal issues
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08:17
maybe someone with a more legal background can answer that though
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I know that cryptocurrency in general is very unregulated but here be dragons 🤷‍♂️
08:23
And don't get me wrong on this I'm not pro gaming. Something needs to be done about the worst offenders. I just hope the legal angle is considered. It would suck to have these people try to sue helium inc and/or individual validators.
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UncleSteve
And don't get me wrong on this I'm not pro gaming. Something needs to be done about the worst offenders. I just hope the legal angle is considered. It would suck to have these people try to sue helium inc and/or individual validators.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 11/24/2021 8:43 AM
the worst offenders have actually gone now
08:44
its not an urgent issue, but speaking to others, the general feel is, we need this in before a big hack comes back, or say we get a huge hack that could have been halted quicker if we dont get this through
08:44
we're working with dewi and talking ideas about the committee angle of this HIP now
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we're working with dewi and talking ideas about the committee angle of this HIP now
Understood and thank you for your consideration. I am still hoping to get a sufficiently snarky reply from Mr @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped though 😉
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UncleSteve
Understood and thank you for your consideration. I am still hoping to get a sufficiently snarky reply from Mr @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped though 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/24/2021 10:08 AM
Sorry, snark is not guaranteed in the discord TOS you signed. You did read that, right?
10:09
(Double reverse snark. Boom! Nailed it. Lol 😉 )
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Now I am complete
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Would hs with custom firmware be automatically put into deny list? It's known and confirmed that many hs are running custom. What legit reasons are there to run custom firmware?
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tson
Would hs with custom firmware be automatically put into deny list? It's known and confirmed that many hs are running custom. What legit reasons are there to run custom firmware?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 11/26/2021 2:57 AM
there are no plans for this, but it could be used as a factor in deciding if they are gaming, if it could be proven somehow
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the worst offenders have actually gone now
There are still plenty of big cheaters, reaping honest rewards of others. Check this hotspot and the wallet with all others. This person is taking $50k a month in HNT with manipulating software to increase beacons and forwards a lot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11RN2LaMFowb8S56PZnv98s57KD8zUy5X8EZi3dmKdxFSCi1kiJ
23:22
How is the HIP progressing? When can we vote on this?
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped what do you think of miners like these? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11RN2LaMFowb8S56PZnv98s57KD8zUy5X8EZi3dmKdxFSCi1kiJ There are plenty like that in NL and Belgium. Popping up a lot recently (edited)
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https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112cSz7iH9Pf7us52w63iRUnZ8FX4JDsLyGJcxVjMdiay1sgAcYd There's nothing of 100m there. Yet 3300 beacons while beaming in 1 direction..
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zzeddd
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped what do you think of miners like these? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11RN2LaMFowb8S56PZnv98s57KD8zUy5X8EZi3dmKdxFSCi1kiJ There are plenty like that in NL and Belgium. Popping up a lot recently (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/07/2021 10:48 AM
Likely cheater
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Yup, thanks. There are dozens, if not 100's like that in NL and BE. It's no coincidence world's top earning Helium miners are Belgian. We need to move forward with a HIP like this one or another anti-cheater initiative
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the worst offenders have actually gone now
How did you get to this conclusion? Actual metrics? There are more and more clusters easily spotted on the map. They are not even trying to hide it and make funny shapes on purpose. If we see this many visible clusters, there must be a lot of well hidden ones as well.
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Sloth
How did you get to this conclusion? Actual metrics? There are more and more clusters easily spotted on the map. They are not even trying to hide it and make funny shapes on purpose. If we see this many visible clusters, there must be a lot of well hidden ones as well.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/12/2021 2:08 AM
Funny shapes on explorer don't mean much, look at their earnings
02:08
Remember this hips for the worst offenders , not all gaming
02:10
This floor that was created, was to see how big the issue was. At the time we had about 40 hotspots. Today? 0. https://etl.dewi.org/public/question/54f5138b-b7ec-47c7-9da3-6a8c94ffe0eb (edited)
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That would only catch the lazy offender. With the amount of manufacturers and hotspots available these days it's not difficult to spread earnings on many more wallets each with just a few hotspots and make 1~2 HNT per hotspot. It is getting more sophisticated than in the beginning. I'm aware that would be incredibly hard to spot. But there are clear patterns like some mentioned in NL/BE/CN of obvious impossible high earners. (edited)
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Sloth
That would only catch the lazy offender. With the amount of manufacturers and hotspots available these days it's not difficult to spread earnings on many more wallets each with just a few hotspots and make 1~2 HNT per hotspot. It is getting more sophisticated than in the beginning. I'm aware that would be incredibly hard to spot. But there are clear patterns like some mentioned in NL/BE/CN of obvious impossible high earners. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/12/2021 2:19 AM
They would be better targeted with PoC changes to detect and invalidate rather than a hip40 style deny. Hip40 takes a lot of effort to run and maintain, and proof is also hard to confirm, explorer links show nothing so any proof could be a false positive
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Is that HIP required to block e.g. the Cotx gamers, or has this been taken care off differently?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/12/2021 8:19 AM
COTX were suspended from onboarding new miners basically
08:19
But this is about having a list of miners that a committee has decided to block for gaming, that could be replay attacks or known spoofers, or if a manufacturer did something like that again those could be stopped in theory
08:20
but its not for all gaming, just the worst offenders
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
COTX were suspended from onboarding new miners basically
yes, but what happened to the ones that were already onboarded? are these still active and this HIP is required to stop them, or has this already resolved?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/12/2021 8:22 AM
I believe they were asked to stop them as part of their terms to get unsuspended
08:22
not 100% you'd need to ask the MoC for details exactly
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JESTACHAISHI 12/15/2021 3:50 AM
I've been looking for help on all discords and channels for two days now the result is zero no one can explain why helium turned off rewards on my hotspots im not cheater or spoofer no tech support or something similar to it my wallet - https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13oY1dv2ztGYtWPkkqVm8TvURai6vb4k5TcizKzsxx9jENU97xV (edited)
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JESTACHAISHI
I've been looking for help on all discords and channels for two days now the result is zero no one can explain why helium turned off rewards on my hotspots im not cheater or spoofer no tech support or something similar to it my wallet - https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13oY1dv2ztGYtWPkkqVm8TvURai6vb4k5TcizKzsxx9jENU97xV (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/15/2021 4:07 AM
No one's turned off rewards, and also a better question for #hotspot-help
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
No one's turned off rewards, and also a better question for #hotspot-help
JESTACHAISHI 12/15/2021 4:17 AM
in every next channel they tell me to go to another channel in the bobcat discord they say go to helium discord in helium discord they say go to bobcat discord and on the channels inside each discord the same situation better ask in "# poc-discussion", better ask in "# hotspot-issues", ETC as a result, two days were spent in nowhere my network does not bring rewards and no one can help me with anything, except by sending me to another channel miracles of decentralization, but I can't get real tech support
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JESTACHAISHI
in every next channel they tell me to go to another channel in the bobcat discord they say go to helium discord in helium discord they say go to bobcat discord and on the channels inside each discord the same situation better ask in "# poc-discussion", better ask in "# hotspot-issues", ETC as a result, two days were spent in nowhere my network does not bring rewards and no one can help me with anything, except by sending me to another channel miracles of decentralization, but I can't get real tech support
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/15/2021 4:21 AM
this room is to discuss hip40, a proposal for a deny list, not for hotspot support
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04:22
for support directly, yes its bobcat, but if you feel its a network issue you can discuss it in #hotspot-help
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...#deleted-channel
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There's an expression that we have in my country that applies to this HiP. "Just for the English to see" https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/37/messages/200.html (edited)
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Nagashi
There's an expression that we have in my country that applies to this HiP. "Just for the English to see" https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/37/messages/200.html (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/16/2021 3:14 AM
I think thats a big part of it sure
03:15
deterrent against gaming
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https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13v9iGhjvQUtVaZXcFFRCEbL1nPR4R8QJowBgMUcaGM2v1aV6mn These guys must be beasts in manufacturing. 17k hotspots already /s
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Nagashi
There's an expression that we have in my country that applies to this HiP. "Just for the English to see" https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/37/messages/200.html (edited)
It's sad. The cheating should be addressed by the team
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zzeddd
It's sad. The cheating should be addressed by the team
The problem is that this is also in their best interest, because this is becoming mass-gaming, and it will just throw Helium and the HNT token down the toilet.
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I'm also really curious why they had such a strong stance against COTX, but then leave this unchecked. (edited)
facepalm 1
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But luckily we have HIP39 to fool people, that the rewards are not decreasing a lot 😄
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Nagashi
I'm also really curious why they had such a strong stance against COTX, but then leave this unchecked. (edited)
Good point
03:18
But maybe we can activate the community and move this towards a vote as well
03:20
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112cSz7iH9Pf7us52w63iRUnZ8FX4JDsLyGJcxVjMdiay1sgAcYd This cheat miner did not earn anything in past 12hr. That's good
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/16/2021 3:55 AM
the hip40 pr is in ready for a vote
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03:56
Part of the works going on in the background, helium have confirmed they will write the code and its quite an easy win
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03:57
We've also been speaking to dewi about the committee, what they should cover , how the research is done (ML? Data Analysis? Boots on the ground?) and things like voting etc, but think manufacturing oversight committee for gaming, called the Proof of Coverage committee
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We've also been speaking to dewi about the committee, what they should cover , how the research is done (ML? Data Analysis? Boots on the ground?) and things like voting etc, but think manufacturing oversight committee for gaming, called the Proof of Coverage committee
We as a community should also not fall into this committee trap. There's a committee to everything. If we keep going in this direction stuff will have more bureaucracy than Brussels..
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Nagashi
We as a community should also not fall into this committee trap. There's a committee to everything. If we keep going in this direction stuff will have more bureaucracy than Brussels..
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/16/2021 6:05 AM
You don't think a committee focused on researching gaming is a good idea?
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I think it's a good idea, but things should be as agile as possible. I think you misunderstood me 😛
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/16/2021 6:10 AM
I agree, it's why I'm sceptical of defining gaming, it would just change
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I agree, it's why I'm sceptical of defining gaming, it would just change
I think we can both agree that getting your hands on a onboarding Maker key and faking devices is definitely gaming.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Part of the works going on in the background, helium have confirmed they will write the code and its quite an easy win
Nice, thanks! When do you expact the vote will be?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/16/2021 11:40 AM
hopefully soon!
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Data analysis a good idea. On the explorer it's quite easy to recognize the cheating hotspots. Very high amount of beacons vs low number of witnesses for example
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/16/2021 11:46 AM
This would be really great as we are having a lot of gamers/spoofers filling up Holland with ip from china. Its unbelievable. All from 1 manufacturer called Pisces.
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Can you share a couple examples Sultan?
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/16/2021 11:59 AM
Sure
11:59
Give me some minutes to show you
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12:03
Cant post picture's here 😦
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Ah maybe just explorer links?
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/16/2021 12:19 PM
Wel there are many
12:20
Check his hotspots
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hollenbeck74 12/16/2021 3:25 PM
I for one, am ready to vote on this one 🙂
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And suddenly, Pisces Miners everywhere, I hope helium team take action, same bullshit in Portugal, in two days all this new Hotspots all them (200HS) belong to 4 new wallets, all Pisces Miners, all them with Chinese IP, hope Pisces get caught as COTX was. Pisces Miners, Chinese IP, Helium location in Portugal 49HS https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14i7ibDnMHm4jvgWAVuv4PbzLUVomK4FhR3txp2vM8PG5jqNFb2 Another with 54HS https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13MTQeFuB29CutgWT2uBNQEgoeShpxYQdVnYE9UrW6EPawNCMx3 Another 46HS https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13BQxPZfww5uKPRURSxBLe9vPqPLj4mpUVMuSsBiScYK6g6Adcx Another with 51 https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13VeKJmVxBKen5ibNZmP7P5suwxiWvx1Dtto6Besxt1QemHUxsz
15:31
Several users reported the same, Chinese Farms are spoofing now with locations in Europe and UK..
15:32
Transmit Scale getting decreased due to this spoofing wallets...
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/16/2021 3:43 PM
Here in Holland also..
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DeadlyPants 12/16/2021 3:49 PM
Wasn’t the update a few days ago supposed to fix this?
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insane amount of pisces miners showed up out of the blue in my area to , hate to see it
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jobo245
insane amount of pisces miners showed up out of the blue in my area to , hate to see it
Chinese spoofing farms are moving to Europe and UK due to frequency restrictions created by PocV11... In the end this is the result of POCv11 implementation: - lowering rewards by antena restrictions..... - plus those Chinese spoofing farms migrating to Europe, This is getting ridiculous...
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Hear hear!!
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Another Pisces spoofing farm in Europe with 54 HS: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13MTQeFuB29CutgWT2uBNQEgoeShpxYQdVnYE9UrW6EPawNCMx3 Please do something ...
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greenward
Another Pisces spoofing farm in Europe with 54 HS: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13MTQeFuB29CutgWT2uBNQEgoeShpxYQdVnYE9UrW6EPawNCMx3 Please do something ...
the line is nearly flat in the past 23 hr. dev took care of a bunch of them last night. Maybe not 100% clean (which is difficult to reach actually) but they are working and monitoring on it (edited)
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Poledancer
the line is nearly flat in the past 23 hr. dev took care of a bunch of them last night. Maybe not 100% clean (which is difficult to reach actually) but they are working and monitoring on it (edited)
Good news but that cluster lowered the transmit scale. Is there anything that can be done to address that ?
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I hope no one stole the Pisces master HS signing key ...
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greenward
Good news but that cluster lowered the transmit scale. Is there anything that can be done to address that ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 5:21 AM
After 2.5 days a hotspot looses it's interactivity if it doesn't do PoC and doesn't count for scaling any more
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
After 2.5 days a hotspot looses it's interactivity if it doesn't do PoC and doesn't count for scaling any more
Thanks, good news indeed.
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Who can put this one to vote?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
After 2.5 days a hotspot looses it's interactivity if it doesn't do PoC and doesn't count for scaling any more
this means....not sending a beacon for 2.5 days?
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rappol
this means....not sending a beacon for 2.5 days?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 7:38 AM
beaconing or witnessing
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Nagashi
Who can put this one to vote?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 7:39 AM
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
beaconing or witnessing
hmmmmm... for some reason ...my HS is just doing witnessing....not beacons for more than3-4 days now....
07:51
will i be affected?
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I'm here ready to vote YES
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That looks like a GREAT proposal. How would potential hotspot owners be notified? Via updated helium app? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 9:04 AM
Yet to be decided, probably needs to be posted both on a website and discord at least
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would there be a time frame for decisions, or would that depend on the complexity of denying the hotspot?
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Gazza
would there be a time frame for decisions, or would that depend on the complexity of denying the hotspot?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 9:07 AM
It needs to be pretty fast paced I think we talked about bi monthly or monthly but nothings set in stone yet , at this stage the vote would be a temperature check to see how everyone feels and evolve it from there
09:08
The idea is the list is polled more than once a day so action could be quick if it needed to be in emergency situations, but it's quite the power to wield, it adds centralisation of control
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i was thinking that, what one hand likes the other hand doesnt. could it be a temporary measure until a Dev could have something in code instead?
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Can you School me quick on how the voting works if you have more hnt in your wallet does that mean you get a bigger vote or no (edited)
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It's moving boys !
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09:38
Thanks @jamiedubs
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I have a concern about this statement Validators do not have to use the same denylist file, or any denylist at all. Only if all consensus group members both have a denylist and have matching records for a Hotspot on the denylist would any action be taken. (edited)
10:09
Is the intention of this sentence saying all validators must be in agreement? It requires unanimous vote?
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If we have a bunch of spoofing whales with tons of Hnt they may jack up the vote (edited)
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Hans
Is the intention of this sentence saying all validators must be in agreement? It requires unanimous vote?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 10:40 AM
yes, this is how it has to work
10:40
all in agreement
10:40
(from a technical standpoint)
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brybo86
If we have a bunch of spoofing whales with tons of Hnt they may jack up the vote (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 10:41 AM
the vote can be done against any on chain metric, its just the last one was voted on with hnt holding, for example, we could use hotspot count, or stakes balance or any metric
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the vote can be done against any on chain metric, its just the last one was voted on with hnt holding, for example, we could use hotspot count, or stakes balance or any metric
if a validator was a bad actor and did not agree with the consensus' deny list would that be an issue?
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Hans
if a validator was a bad actor and did not agree with the consensus' deny list would that be an issue?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 11:24 AM
yes, any transactions would be accepted
11:24
all consensus members, at that time have to agree
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Well playing devil's advocate; what's stopping spoofers from running their own validator that refused to honor the deny list?
11:25
I guess slashing?
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Hans
Well playing devil's advocate; what's stopping spoofers from running their own validator that refused to honor the deny list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 11:26 AM
its only when they are in consensus does it count tho, they wont always be in
11:26
so even a few bad actors wouldn't make much difference
11:26
its a 10k stake (locked for months ) for little return (edited)
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Okay. IMHO, lots of different methods have been discussed but this one seems to be the one with the most inertia
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11:28
Deny list w/ tools to detect spoofers seems to be the direction the devs are moving
11:28
I think of all the methods this one has the least risk and easiest deployment.
11:29
Although, it's still has downsides
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 11:29 AM
they have mentioned its a quick win coding wise (and that they'd be coding it)
11:29
but yes,
11:29
adding some centralisation
11:29
and at what cost? we have no idea how big gaming is
11:29
is the cost worth the action time to review everything
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Spoofing may not be a big currently, but as hotspots become cheaper and easier to obtain it will become a much bigger problem
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Hans
Spoofing may not be a big currently, but as hotspots become cheaper and easier to obtain it will become a much bigger problem
A big spoofer could run a validator with no deny list, and when that validator is in a Consensus group with others also with no deny list they would not be denied. Also other validators could decide to use DeWI list and another list of EU Pisces spoofers for example, so now if this validator was in the CG they would be denied.
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waveform
A big spoofer could run a validator with no deny list, and when that validator is in a Consensus group with others also with no deny list they would not be denied. Also other validators could decide to use DeWI list and another list of EU Pisces spoofers for example, so now if this validator was in the CG they would be denied.
So perhaps this is the greatest weakness of this hip then?
11:45
From that logic, It seems like there is no shared consensus, and individual validators can selectively ban hotspots at will (edited)
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Hans
From that logic, It seems like there is no shared consensus, and individual validators can selectively ban hotspots at will (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 12:03 PM
for a deny to take place all 42 consensus members would need to agree (edited)
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Thanks for clearing that up
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
for a deny to take place all 42 consensus members would need to agree (edited)
Did I mix around my explaining words? My heads still a bit doh after my vaccination followed by a cold.
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PsychoShaft 12/17/2021 1:12 PM
I have noticed around england lots of Pisces miners with Chinese Ip address with 0 witnesses all connected to the same wallet, raking in the beacon rewards.. i can't wait until we can ban them all. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
for a deny to take place all 42 consensus members would need to agree (edited)
Do you think there will be an appeals process? I mean, there could be cases where innocents could get banned.
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Jerotire
Do you think there will be an appeals process? I mean, there could be cases where innocents could get banned.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 1:18 PM
I think that's an important step to lay out
13:18
How appeals are processed, how supporting evidence against can be submitted
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
How appeals are processed, how supporting evidence against can be submitted
PsychoShaft 12/17/2021 1:20 PM
Drivers licence, bills etc..
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Angry Pickle Bear 12/17/2021 1:20 PM
My preference is that there's a decay where hotspots that are denylisted can only be denied for the amount of time required to patch a fix or something (90 days?), and so a long-term solution needs to be different. It would prevent denylist from being used as a crutch in the long-term.
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Angry Pickle Bear
My preference is that there's a decay where hotspots that are denylisted can only be denied for the amount of time required to patch a fix or something (90 days?), and so a long-term solution needs to be different. It would prevent denylist from being used as a crutch in the long-term.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 1:20 PM
Yep your right, it wouldn't be naturally occuring like the deny wouldn't just expire but I believe the committee would have to have a process to review old denies after X period (edited)
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PsychoShaft
Drivers licence, bills etc..
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 1:21 PM
But that doesn't help prove their not gaming
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Is there something in the works to de-register/list inactive hotspots?
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Jerotire
Is there something in the works to de-register/list inactive hotspots?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 1:21 PM
Not at this time
13:22
It's been discussed
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PsychoShaft 12/17/2021 1:22 PM
Another way is to email the wallet address and give them a set amount of time to provide additional information regarding the hotspot location and must gain witnesses if in a popular area.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But that doesn't help prove their not gaming
I guess it depends on the circumstance. Every case will be different. And different steps and assurances will be needed to prove the blacklist was unjust/mistaken.
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PsychoShaft 12/17/2021 1:24 PM
and also the ip address of the hotspot should be located around the location of the miner.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 1:25 PM
there was also the anonymity question regarding submitting evidence (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there was also the anonymity question regarding submitting evidence (edited)
PsychoShaft 12/17/2021 1:27 PM
thats a good point. would need human verification
13:28
to be honest tho, a lot of the spoofers can be figured out by a fruit cake, some cases might need more attention.
13:32
I feel the voting system is a tat unjust because scammers wallets have more HNT then the general population? so they could sway the vote on any big direction ?? (edited)
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PsychoShaft
I feel the voting system is a tat unjust because scammers wallets have more HNT then the general population? so they could sway the vote on any big direction ?? (edited)
PsychoShaft 12/17/2021 1:34 PM
dont you think the voting system should be like a ballot box.. 1 vote per person per wallet.
13:36
however on the other hand, can someone could make a bot and create 1000s of wallets and send fractions of hnt for voting on important topics??
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PsychoShaft
I feel the voting system is a tat unjust because scammers wallets have more HNT then the general population? so they could sway the vote on any big direction ?? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/17/2021 2:06 PM
We dont have to use wallet balance as a metric if there's a better one to measure it against
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We dont have to use wallet balance as a metric if there's a better one to measure it against
How about the amount of times the hotspot name is mentioned in discord in all caps?
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how are you so sure it is a cheat miner?
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South of Lisbon - one example
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zzeddd
New cheat miners keep popping up in NL. This time a Cotx one https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ
That looks fine to me. The only thing that I can find a bit weird is that he witnesses a lot but his beacon only reached 4 hotspots (one invalid), but that can be due to other reasons. (edited)
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They did not set the right information. There are more like this and they are placed in windmills (so like 100 meters). So i think they just dont reach that much miners with a beacon because the signal never makes it to the ground.
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Possibly needs a definition of what “Proof-of-Coverage gaming” is? I don’t think it’s self evident?
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zzeddd
New cheat miners keep popping up in NL. This time a Cotx one https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ
Sultan_Pindakaas 12/18/2021 2:00 PM
This one is 100% a cheater, i work and come from that area. There is nothing in that hexagon.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and at what cost? we have no idea how big gaming is
The cost isn’t even the loss of HNT earnings. It’s a cost to the whole project. For businesses to invest in sensors to utilise the coverage the official helium avenues portray. It needs to be legitimate and that is done with PoC. If that is gamed, the network loses revenue for which it was built to leverage. At present people are hurting over sharing blocks. They’ll hurt more when no one treats the network as reliable or honest.
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Charles (nowisensors.com) 12/18/2021 3:40 PM
I can vouch for this, but the issue we see is in hotspots with their locations moved but are near by. Which there's currently a lot of
15:41
Hopefully the algorithm continues to improve on this front
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What if, each wallet have to send a picture of their setup or something, if one of their hotspot or their wallet combined earning is over certain amount?
18:04
and if you have over, say 10 or more hotspots you'll have to verify a few of them
18:05
Probably won't stop people who are going to make a million wallets to keep below the limit, but just more work for them
18:06
Get a mapper in the area to verify
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Has anyone looked in to modifying the explorer to allow people to more easily construct these
Additional lists can be created by the community and validators can choose to opt-in to additional lists.
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I think the only solution to farmers/gamers is: Remove remote asset, require a free reassert with Bluetooth + IP geolocation of the phone asserting the position and verify that it’s in less than X meters of the asserted position. + KYC of every helium account. (edited)
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Let’s appoint “trusted agents” around the globe that will travel to said locations with a Helium mapper. That will solve all the spoofing issues. It’s the long way around but it’s the most accurate. Of course you will have to trust the “agent” 😅😅😅
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th3dark
Let’s appoint “trusted agents” around the globe that will travel to said locations with a Helium mapper. That will solve all the spoofing issues. It’s the long way around but it’s the most accurate. Of course you will have to trust the “agent” 😅😅😅
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 1:45 AM
We've talked about the idea of loose trust and mapping but nothing concrete at this time
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ricopt5
That looks fine to me. The only thing that I can find a bit weird is that he witnesses a lot but his beacon only reached 4 hotspots (one invalid), but that can be due to other reasons. (edited)
Oh man. So many beacons and just 4 witnesses.. that's exactly the sign of a cheat miner, using packet forward software. A normal miner would have 10's of witnesses and 1/5th of the number of beacons
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How can a company Invest to use helium network,...they can't trust in their network....once HS locations aren't real.
03:18
This is bad...and price I think is reflecting this latest problems
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maybe we can associate GPS location info when setting up/re-assert locations of a HS with the bluetooth paired cellphones ? if the geolocation is outside of a specific range from the HS then location assertion will fail.
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GФMΞS
How can a company Invest to use helium network,...they can't trust in their network....once HS locations aren't real.
The company will invest on mapped areas, thats a no problem. Price is reflecting btc unstability, nothing more.
03:53
The ideia i liked the most is the one regarding to trusted agents doing mapping. They could be paid in hnt by mapped hex, and each Hex could be mapped from time to time. After gathering this data, its easier to work the PoC in order to compensate miners that give more coverage. That would be real proof of coverage
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Herculano
The company will invest on mapped areas, thats a no problem. Price is reflecting btc unstability, nothing more.
Reducing TS trough spoofing, for those who Invested in HS is a problem for them.
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Herculano
The ideia i liked the most is the one regarding to trusted agents doing mapping. They could be paid in hnt by mapped hex, and each Hex could be mapped from time to time. After gathering this data, its easier to work the PoC in order to compensate miners that give more coverage. That would be real proof of coverage
Exactly
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Imo cheaters will always exist and thats not the main issue on the network at all, its a super small % compared to the big picture
03:56
Blockchain stability, 5g data credits usage, light gateways are way more important stuff to look compared to a bunch of cheaters . Nothing to ignore, dont get me wrong, but Ive seen some measures being applied before that were bad for honest members and that cheaters easily trespassed anyway. Cheaters will always exist unfortunately
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Herculano
Imo cheaters will always exist and thats not the main issue on the network at all, its a super small % compared to the big picture
This is simply not true. If there are 5000 cheat miners taking 1 HNT a day, you are already talking about 150k HNT a month taken from the 1M available for Poc rewards. That's very significant. In Netherlands and Belgium we have several 100 cheat miners already, if not 1000+.. they all take between 1 and 2 HNT a day
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04:46
It's pretty obvious and easy to spot the cheaters on the map. No need to say "it will always exist" that's why we shouldn't do anything. No, the network should be as much anti-cheating and anti-gaming as possible. It clearly isn't now, that's why we need this hip
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zzeddd
It's pretty obvious and easy to spot the cheaters on the map. No need to say "it will always exist" that's why we shouldn't do anything. No, the network should be as much anti-cheating and anti-gaming as possible. It clearly isn't now, that's why we need this hip
"its pretty easy?" Lol
04:47
I never said we should not so anything anyway lol
04:48
I actually said that "we shouldnt ignore this"
04:49
But its been like this for the past 2 years and everytime I see a try to stop spoofers and cheaters, the normal user gets more penalized because of some strict rules
04:49
And no, its not pretty easy to PROOF that 1 miner is cheater/spoofer.
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Herculano
"its pretty easy?" Lol
Yup. Check this one out as example: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ It magically only reaches 4 other hotspots, very far away. Yet, 776 beacons/7days and high revenues. There are 100's of these in NL and BE. Do some research on packet forwarders
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Herculano
And no, its not pretty easy to PROOF that 1 miner is cheater/spoofer.
Nice statement without factual proof 😄. I'll look up some more real proofs for you, for educational purposes
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zzeddd
Yup. Check this one out as example: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ It magically only reaches 4 other hotspots, very far away. Yet, 776 beacons/7days and high revenues. There are 100's of these in NL and BE. Do some research on packet forwarders
Im aware of all of those examples.
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zzeddd
Yup. Check this one out as example: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ It magically only reaches 4 other hotspots, very far away. Yet, 776 beacons/7days and high revenues. There are 100's of these in NL and BE. Do some research on packet forwarders
And this proofs nothing btw. Even though me and you knowing that that guy is a cheater
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Herculano
And this proofs nothing btw. Even though me and you knowing that that guy is a cheater
Sorry but that seems quite the contradiction
04:54
You can compare surrounding miners and see that even with low rewards and weak antenna, they have 10 or 20 witnesses for example
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zzeddd
I didnt say its hard to spot :)
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04:55
I said its hard to proof
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 4:55 AM
explorer links don't prove anything, even if it looks like gaming, there are a few other things that make it look like gaming tho, one i've often seen is the ip location missmatch of hotspots in the UK and IP's in china
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04:56
but sure, things like witnessing levels, that would be better fixed with #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit or #hip-44-witness-reward-decay
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I live in China I can ensure you that possibly over 90% HS in China are spoofers, coming from the miner farms hosted indoors🤣
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
explorer links don't prove anything, even if it looks like gaming, there are a few other things that make it look like gaming tho, one i've often seen is the ip location missmatch of hotspots in the UK and IP's in china
yea, IP geolocation is a terrible (and wrong) way to assert anything about the location of a miner. Not to mention the traffic may be routed via VPN to enable p2p connections
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wolas
yea, IP geolocation is a terrible (and wrong) way to assert anything about the location of a miner. Not to mention the traffic may be routed via VPN to enable p2p connections
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:13 AM
I agree just a sign that says it might be
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I agree just a sign that says it might be
I don't think is it a sign, it shouldn't even be considered. It's very naive and technically not correct. There are many cases why it would not match and I could have 1000 valid hotspots under one IP address, it's a road to nowhere unfortunately. One way I see is data mining, statistical algorithms and neural networks for anomaly detection that would narrow down the cheaters but then Helium would have to reach out to those people and start some kind of verification process that would be hard to fake
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wolas
I don't think is it a sign, it shouldn't even be considered. It's very naive and technically not correct. There are many cases why it would not match and I could have 1000 valid hotspots under one IP address, it's a road to nowhere unfortunately. One way I see is data mining, statistical algorithms and neural networks for anomaly detection that would narrow down the cheaters but then Helium would have to reach out to those people and start some kind of verification process that would be hard to fake
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:22 AM
you cant? its 1 hotspot per IP
08:22
I'm not talking an automated sign but if that was backed up with more information, not the only reason
08:23
it could be used as a possible sign
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you cant? its 1 hotspot per IP
you can serve hotspots on different ports, thus it is technically possible to have multiple hotspots on one IP address. it is often a case when you route the traffic through vpn
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wolas
you can serve hotspots on different ports, thus it is technically possible to have multiple hotspots on one IP address. it is often a case when you route the traffic through vpn
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:24 AM
they will share beacons if they are on the same ip
08:24
there is a filter in place for 1 hotspot per ip
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there is a filter in place for 1 hotspot per ip
what filter? can you point me to the docs/code?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:25 AM
I wouldn't but i can probably find it, i assure you it's there tho, 1 ip per hotspot
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I wouldn't but i can probably find it, i assure you it's there tho, 1 ip per hotspot
If it is then this is terrible solution 😅
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:26 AM
its been there forever
08:27
in fact at one point the filter got updated for a larger range not just the same ip, caught a lot of cheaters
08:27
but they removed it, put it back to same ip only
08:27
decided that shouldn't be enabled without a hip
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but they removed it, put it back to same ip only
yea I would need to see docs or code, otherwise is hard to guess. Filtering on IP is not a good solution for sure, I have only heard rumors about "anti-gaming" systems in place but never seen any hard proof of it. Anyone please post it if you find it somewhere 😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:30 AM
there isnt much else in the way of anti gaming
08:30
just the 1 per ip thing
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wolas
yea I would need to see docs or code, otherwise is hard to guess. Filtering on IP is not a good solution for sure, I have only heard rumors about "anti-gaming" systems in place but never seen any hard proof of it. Anyone please post it if you find it somewhere 😉
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:31 AM
The team has a new release tagged 2021.03.05.0. This release collects some small but important maintenance upgrades to the blockchain but primarily is focused on adding a new functionality to the Proof of Coverage system. We also included a few code changes that will support Light Hotspots in the future and snapshot bump.
08:31
this talks about it
08:31
We’ve introduced a new way for Hotspots to be identified on chain through the hash of the Hotspot’s IP address. The new field is associated with a chain variable poc_addr_hash_byte_count that will need to be activated for this system to be used. Roughly speaking, the Challenger will hash the IP address it sees from the challengee and attach it to the receipt. Future Challengers will be able to inspect all receipts in the last PoC interval, see if the IP address has already been challenged, and skip them.
08:31
How will this impact me and my participation in Proof of Coverage? Correctly asserted Hotspots on individual IP addresses will see no impact.
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hash of the Hotspot’s IP address
08:32
they forgot about the PORT 😛
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:32 AM
it doesnt hash including the port
08:33
just the ip
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I know that's what I am saying 😛
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:33 AM
so if you have 2 on the same ip, it'll look the same 😉
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maybe someone from Helium engineering team can share some insights if it is still in place... @capcom ? I am rather curious why do you need such filters on IP layer and how do you handle a valid vpn scenario
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It’s still in place, it basically fractionalizes the number of challenges per IP. Personally wouldn’t think the niche vpn cases warrant changing it
08:38
The driving motivator at the time was dozens of hotspots on single IPs (not VPNs). When we move to light hotspots there will be even less reason for any hotspot to be on a vpn
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capcom
It’s still in place, it basically fractionalizes the number of challenges per IP. Personally wouldn’t think the niche vpn cases warrant changing it
oh boy. Is it specified in the docs, that you need to have one IP per hotspot or otherwise you would suffer less challenges?
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wolas
oh boy. Is it specified in the docs, that you need to have one IP per hotspot or otherwise you would suffer less challenges?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:39 AM
since when do people read the docs?
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I haven’t kept up with the docs, but we publicized and explained it at the time
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capcom
The driving motivator at the time was dozens of hotspots on single IPs (not VPNs). When we move to light hotspots there will be even less reason for any hotspot to be on a vpn
yes, light hotspots would solve all of these problems but it is still a long way to go 😦
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capcom
I haven’t kept up with the docs, but we publicized and explained it at the time
I would say it's quite critical info regarding hotspot setup
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PR against the docs repo?
08:41
I don’t know if it’s in there or not (edited)
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capcom
The driving motivator at the time was dozens of hotspots on single IPs (not VPNs). When we move to light hotspots there will be even less reason for any hotspot to be on a vpn
I understand from where you guys are coming from but I hope you understand how naive and technically wrong this solution is. Any filter on IP layer will fail and is very easy to bypass
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I don’t agree
08:43
Feels like we’re in totally the wrong channel btw
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wolas
I understand from where you guys are coming from but I hope you understand how naive and technically wrong this solution is. Any filter on IP layer will fail and is very easy to bypass
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:44 AM
its not about it being easy to bypass, just to catch the majority, which it is
08:44
makes it a step harder so folks who don't know what they're doing, will get hindered by it, not that there arent ways round it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its not about it being easy to bypass, just to catch the majority, which it is
it's not optimal because it has many false positives that are UNAWARE of the problem cause it is not specified in the docs. Plus, I think it is very easy to bypass - therefore not a good anti gaming solution. Am I really the only one seeing this as a problem?
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wolas
it's not optimal because it has many false positives that are UNAWARE of the problem cause it is not specified in the docs. Plus, I think it is very easy to bypass - therefore not a good anti gaming solution. Am I really the only one seeing this as a problem?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 8:45 AM
an ip & vps with digitalocean is only $5 for instance, not hard to get separate vpn instances going
08:45
easy way round it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
an ip & vps with digitalocean is only $5 for instance, not hard to get separate vpn instances going
the same way, you can assign multiple IP addresses for one VPS and bypass this filter for good... 😛
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There’s no false positive. You get challenged less, that’s it. If you see dozens of hotspots gaming off single IPs then this is a simple countermeasure that has very minimal collateral damage. I don’t think anyone is oblivious to how easy it is to work around, that isn’t the point
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capcom
There’s no false positive. You get challenged less, that’s it. If you see dozens of hotspots gaming off single IPs then this is a simple countermeasure that has very minimal collateral damage. I don’t think anyone is oblivious to how easy it is to work around, that isn’t the point
I don't agree. You have put in place an anti-gaming filter to prevent people from gaming the system.
You get challenged less, that’s it.
Exactly, you are affected (less rewards) whereas you shouldn't be because your setup is correct and location is properly asserted. Seems like a false-positive to me
If you see dozens of hotspots gaming off single IPs then this is a simple countermeasure that has very minimal collateral damage
It's good as a quick win and a hotfix but not as a long term solution for this problem in my opinion.
08:57
I am just a little surprised by this discovery that's all, I think technically it could have been better. If if this is they way it is, it should definitely be specified in the docs for hotspot setup
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wolas
I am just a little surprised by this discovery that's all, I think technically it could have been better. If if this is they way it is, it should definitely be specified in the docs for hotspot setup
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 9:03 AM
Don't think there's a guide on how to setup hotspots , do's and don't etc you can add one if you like
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capcom
There’s no false positive. You get challenged less, that’s it. If you see dozens of hotspots gaming off single IPs then this is a simple countermeasure that has very minimal collateral damage. I don’t think anyone is oblivious to how easy it is to work around, that isn’t the point
I am just a little surprised by this discovery that's all
Surprised and affected, that's why I am not very keen on this solution. I have been routing traffic through the same vpn for the hotspots that I couldn't get a public IP address and some of them had the same IP address but different ports. All of these hotspots are valid and properly asserted. I just wonder how many people like me are there who are not even aware of this. Is there any other thing that is not publicly stated in the docs I should be aware of @capcom ? 😛
(edited)
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wolas
I don't agree. You have put in place an anti-gaming filter to prevent people from gaming the system.
You get challenged less, that’s it.
Exactly, you are affected (less rewards) whereas you shouldn't be because your setup is correct and location is properly asserted. Seems like a false-positive to me
If you see dozens of hotspots gaming off single IPs then this is a simple countermeasure that has very minimal collateral damage
It's good as a quick win and a hotfix but not as a long term solution for this problem in my opinion.
Everything you have mentioned was discussed 9+ months ago but not implementing it would allow such easy obvious gaming. The cost and technological ability needed for gaming was increased but the negative were some valid campus or farm implantations were hit https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730243594707009608/817588506679312394
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wolas
I am just a little surprised by this discovery that's all
Surprised and affected, that's why I am not very keen on this solution. I have been routing traffic through the same vpn for the hotspots that I couldn't get a public IP address and some of them had the same IP address but different ports. All of these hotspots are valid and properly asserted. I just wonder how many people like me are there who are not even aware of this. Is there any other thing that is not publicly stated in the docs I should be aware of @capcom ? 😛
(edited)
Please stop tagging me on a Sunday morning if it’s not urgent! (You’re also still very much in the wrong channel)
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waveform
Everything you have mentioned was discussed 9+ months ago but not implementing it would allow such easy obvious gaming. The cost and technological ability needed for gaming was increased but the negative were some valid campus or farm implantations were hit https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730243594707009608/817588506679312394
I understand the decision, I understand that engineering is a trade-off between many things including resources, but in my opinion this solution is far from ideal cause 1) it's so easy to bypass. I would argue it requires much more technological ability - the people who are gaming the system have already enough technological ability to bypass this (as you can see in the above thread where all the gaming cases were posted) 2) it throws the baby out with the bathwater
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wolas
I understand the decision, I understand that engineering is a trade-off between many things including resources, but in my opinion this solution is far from ideal cause 1) it's so easy to bypass. I would argue it requires much more technological ability - the people who are gaming the system have already enough technological ability to bypass this (as you can see in the above thread where all the gaming cases were posted) 2) it throws the baby out with the bathwater
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/19/2021 9:24 AM
no point debating it, its in, you'll need to route per IP not all on the same
09:24
and if you want to change it, write a hip
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Now that I am aware of this, maybe I will, let's cut this discussion here. Thanks for sharing your opinions
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
explorer links don't prove anything, even if it looks like gaming, there are a few other things that make it look like gaming tho, one i've often seen is the ip location missmatch of hotspots in the UK and IP's in china
It does proof something but ok. What is the current timeline for this hip and vote?
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Can you not use GEOIP to see what IP address they have. It may not be 100% accurate, but it should at least tell you the country or region. for example if the hotspot reports a Chinese IP via GEOIP, and it’s showing as hosted in the Netherlands, that clearly says spoofer. (edited)
13:35
also. How will the hotspot be banned? Will it be based on their hardware spec like some games ban players?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
since when do people read the docs?
Still needs to be doc'ed for historical and transparency purposes, no? Otherwise, how can people benefit from the endorphin rush that comes from typing RTFM?
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DocAwk
Still needs to be doc'ed for historical and transparency purposes, no? Otherwise, how can people benefit from the endorphin rush that comes from typing RTFM?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/20/2021 3:24 PM
Yeah feel free to submit a pr, I did have a browse seeing where it was best placed but such a doc doesn't seem to exist of basic things and rules as such
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yeah feel free to submit a pr, I did have a browse seeing where it was best placed but such a doc doesn't seem to exist of basic things and rules as such
Who is the content designer/tech writer for Helium org?
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DocAwk
Who is the content designer/tech writer for Helium org?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/20/2021 3:26 PM
The docs are open source, anyone can contribute
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:37 AM
Hey folks, whilst not a full vote for implementing this HIP, there's been calls to run a temperature vote here to see if the idea of this HIP has support.
02:37
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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♻️ 137
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pinned a message to this channel. 12/21/2021 2:38 AM
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/21/2021 2:41 AM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io going to share it on different social media groeps if you dont mind?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:42 AM
remember not a full vote tho
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/21/2021 2:42 AM
i know
02:43
shared it in the Dutch groeps
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02:43
TG & Discord.
02:43
We are getting sick of Holland getting spammed with the china spoofers.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:43 AM
I'm ready for the comments here going crazy 😆
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/21/2021 2:43 AM
The country is so small , take russia , why Holland.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:45 AM
we have some in the uk
02:45
this popped up one day
02:45
this cluster
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/21/2021 2:46 AM
UK is 7 times Holland😆
02:46
Also enough space
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:47 AM
it needs looking at for sure, this hips backed up with not just the deny list but the idea of a security committee to research these things
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i think spoofing is a global problem
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Sultan_Pindakaas 12/21/2021 2:47 AM
Its not that they are stealing the hnt but more the hexagons, and i am 100% sure they just bought the key and not the offical hotspot.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:48 AM
hey @TheJWays would love some feedback 🙂
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when they set up in kazakhstan instead of UK or netherlands they'll still drain the global pool of rewards
02:48
making contributing to the network less interesting for genuine enthusiasts
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Sultan_Pindakaas
Its not that they are stealing the hnt but more the hexagons, and i am 100% sure they just bought the key and not the offical hotspot.
that's a valid point. if we see spoofers buying lots of keys from certain manufacturers (like pisces, in case of the netherlands), those should be reprimanded as well
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02:51
hip19 style like nebra and cotx
02:51
we cant allow manufacturers to facilitate spoofing or gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
Good idea! Let's raise attention to this topic
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klaagbaas
that's a valid point. if we see spoofers buying lots of keys from certain manufacturers (like pisces, in case of the netherlands), those should be reprimanded as well
Good point. You can ask some responsibility from the suppliers to make their devices as much anti-gaming / anti-cheating as possible
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That's great
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:14 AM
If you vote no/needs more work please provide feedback <3
03:14
I don't think this hips ready but we need more input
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
Love it. Strongly against gaming so this would be a good thing to atleast try to block them a bit
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I think you shouldn't reduce creating challenge time from every 4hours to 10hours. Earnings dropped twice.
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vaidux20
I think you shouldn't reduce creating challenge time from every 4hours to 10hours. Earnings dropped twice.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:16 AM
That has nothing to do with this hip, please take it to #hip-discussion
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@Sultan_Pindakaas It's not just China. I've seen some Russian IP's too
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All the clusters in Germany and Netherlands are making me angry
03:16
🙃
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vaidux20
I think you shouldn't reduce creating challenge time from every 4hours to 10hours. Earnings dropped twice.
Sir this is a Wendy’s
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If you vote no/needs more work please provide feedback <3
Deleted User 12/21/2021 3:16 AM
the open questions at the bottom are also mine, so i voted need more work (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:17 AM
You can vote however you like and provide related feedback :)
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Sultan_Pindakaas
Its not that they are stealing the hnt but more the hexagons, and i am 100% sure they just bought the key and not the offical hotspot.
You’re wrong about the last part in most of the cases. But it doesn’t really matter
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
I think there is a need for a denylist where there is obvious spoofing (ie COXT) however; I don't like the idea of validators being able to chose if they use this list, or generate their own. There should also be some specifics on this HIP around criteria for a deny (so it's clear to the owner) and a clear route to appeal.
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0weavern
I think there is a need for a denylist where there is obvious spoofing (ie COXT) however; I don't like the idea of validators being able to chose if they use this list, or generate their own. There should also be some specifics on this HIP around criteria for a deny (so it's clear to the owner) and a clear route to appeal.
Agree, and also a method for getting back to the mining.
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0weavern
I think there is a need for a denylist where there is obvious spoofing (ie COXT) however; I don't like the idea of validators being able to chose if they use this list, or generate their own. There should also be some specifics on this HIP around criteria for a deny (so it's clear to the owner) and a clear route to appeal.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:19 AM
technically, validators could do this right now without the list by denying ip's
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0weavern
I think there is a need for a denylist where there is obvious spoofing (ie COXT) however; I don't like the idea of validators being able to chose if they use this list, or generate their own. There should also be some specifics on this HIP around criteria for a deny (so it's clear to the owner) and a clear route to appeal.
Agree. Today gamers can be future validators after staking hnt collected with gaming.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:19 AM
i think its important we focus most onto a list or not using one
03:19
and the idea that the community could create a list (and get everyone to use it) is a hard sell
03:19
where as the first list, should be widely adopted
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0weavern
I think there is a need for a denylist where there is obvious spoofing (ie COXT) however; I don't like the idea of validators being able to chose if they use this list, or generate their own. There should also be some specifics on this HIP around criteria for a deny (so it's clear to the owner) and a clear route to appeal.
Look under section Appealing at the hip
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and the idea that the community could create a list (and get everyone to use it) is a hard sell
Indeed - whilst the majority of us are good actors, it definitely opens the doors to bad actors adding people they've had spats with on Discord just to spite them 😅
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:20 AM
so all consensus members have to agree to the deny (edited)
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03:20
or it doesn't hold
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
so all consensus members have to agree to the deny (edited)
Or at least the vast majority
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0weavern
Or at least the vast majority
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:21 AM
the way it works, all consensus members must have the deny
03:21
or it doesn't hold
03:21
there isn't halfs or some here, has to be all (edited)
03:22
thats a technical limitation in the way consensus works, all must agree
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OK - that makes sense. But I guess the mechanics of that will be hard. So let's say I submit a hotspot that I believe to be spoofing to a community list that all but one of the validators in the consensus group uses. It wouldn't pass onto the deny list. Next consensus round, and all validators use that list and therefore agree a deny What happens next time? Is that hotspot then on the denylist permanently, or is it on a consensus group by consensus group basis?
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0weavern
OK - that makes sense. But I guess the mechanics of that will be hard. So let's say I submit a hotspot that I believe to be spoofing to a community list that all but one of the validators in the consensus group uses. It wouldn't pass onto the deny list. Next consensus round, and all validators use that list and therefore agree a deny What happens next time? Is that hotspot then on the denylist permanently, or is it on a consensus group by consensus group basis?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:24 AM
its per consensus group so every time the members change they have to agree
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Feel like hotspot transfers become a bit more problematic off the back of this.
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briffy
Feel like hotspot transfers become a bit more problematic off the back of this.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:25 AM
it doesnt effect wallet transactions
03:25
its just any poc events will return invalid (deny)
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But does affect people wanting to buy second-hand hotspots is what I mean.
03:25
Extra step for the average user to check to make sure the hotspot they're buying isn't banned.
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briffy
But does affect people wanting to buy second-hand hotspots is what I mean.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:25 AM
it could, but buyers could see the activity showing invalids with the reason deny
03:25
but yes
03:26
it adds a step
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The flip side is that it's public and adds protections. The person buying can do their own due diligence to check it's not banned before parting with their cash... but how often do we see that... 😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:26 AM
the bans are also not perminant
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You can ask for hotspot name + appealing wouldn't take that long probably
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:26 AM
the idea being bans could be lifted and tested some sort of probation
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Then I think validators should have to listen to at least 1 list, most likely the one governed by the DeWi committee, which means there's at least one constant. Then community can submit their own lists, which validators can chose to subscribe to. If validators in the consensus group then all happen to have the same hotspot on community subscribed lists, that isn't on the DeWi, then this can act as an election process to the DeWi list.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:27 AM
so its not a forever thing
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0weavern
Then I think validators should have to listen to at least 1 list, most likely the one governed by the DeWi committee, which means there's at least one constant. Then community can submit their own lists, which validators can chose to subscribe to. If validators in the consensus group then all happen to have the same hotspot on community subscribed lists, that isn't on the DeWi, then this can act as an election process to the DeWi list.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:27 AM
thats the idea, the dewi list would be opt out, they could then remove/add others
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the bans are also not perminant
That's good, it sounded to me like it was a permanent ban unless you appeal, which seemed a bit heavy handed.
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what if miscarriage of justice happened...
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YTLin
what if miscarriage of justice happened...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:28 AM
hotspot owners can appeal
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
hotspot owners can appeal
kupcoin🎈 12/21/2021 3:29 AM
how would one be notified so they could appeal or know they are under the hammer?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
hotspot owners can appeal
If this gets implemented could we maybe already upload evidence if your hotspot ever gets flagged?
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briffy
That's good, it sounded to me like it was a permanent ban unless you appeal, which seemed a bit heavy handed.
Ideally the hotspots will be in there for the shortest amount of time until a change is made to the network with some automated means of applying the mitigation.
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kupcoin🎈 12/21/2021 3:30 AM
would there be a wallet or hotspot specific notification ?
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Ghost
If this gets implemented could we maybe already upload evidence if your hotspot ever gets flagged?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:30 AM
no, wed need to keep it to the appeal process, notification of action would need to be provided so its not like an instant thing, otherwise it gets into too much workload
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kupcoin🎈
would there be a wallet or hotspot specific notification ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:30 AM
the list and notifications in my mind would be published on a website, as well as probably a related room here
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats the idea, the dewi list would be opt out, they could then remove/add others
Not quite what I mean. The DeWi list should be mandatory with validators able to add additional lists. Something like this: Hotspot ABC123 is suspected of spoofing but isn't on the DeWi list. Several community lists then have hotspot ABC123 added to their list A consensus group is elected and, between them, they subscribe to many additional community lists Hotspot ABC123 happens to be on at least 1 of the community lists that each of the validators subscribe to Consensus group agreed hotspot ABD123 needs to be on the denylist and elevates that hotspot to the DeWi list All future censuses groups use the DeWi list so that hotspot will be on the denylist until appeal. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
no, wed need to keep it to the appeal process, notification of action would need to be provided so its not like an instant thing, otherwise it gets into too much workload
Alright then will make photos so I don't have to travel 1.5hours for evidence 😂
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What we need to ensure is that if a hotspot is banned, it stays banned. Make sure there are not easy ways they can change their hotspot name or ip to get around The ban.
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0weavern
Not quite what I mean. The DeWi list should be mandatory with validators able to add additional lists. Something like this: Hotspot ABC123 is suspected of spoofing but isn't on the DeWi list. Several community lists then have hotspot ABC123 added to their list A consensus group is elected and, between them, they subscribe to many additional community lists Hotspot ABC123 happens to be on at least 1 of the community lists that each of the validators subscribe to Consensus group agreed hotspot ABD123 needs to be on the denylist and elevates that hotspot to the DeWi list All future censuses groups use the DeWi list so that hotspot will be on the denylist until appeal. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:31 AM
the idea is validators provide the decentralisation, they have to AGREE to use it or opt out, otherwise its far more centalised
03:32
its letting the validators vote, this is right for the network
03:32
if they think the dewi list is wrong, or being used in the wrong way, they can vote by not using it (edited)
03:32
not being forced to
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make them no interest to spoof rather than complicated court
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the list and notifications in my mind would be published on a website, as well as probably a related room here
kupcoin🎈 12/21/2021 3:32 AM
so you would always have to be checking if for some reason you would be on a list? i think there should be something posted on the page or wallet of the ones that are under the hammer
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kupcoin🎈
so you would always have to be checking if for some reason you would be on a list? i think there should be something posted on the page or wallet of the ones that are under the hammer
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:33 AM
you'd see it in app with your activity, its not like it stops just goes invalid
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the list and notifications in my mind would be published on a website, as well as probably a related room here
Would also recommend a specific push notification to owner their wallet
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the idea is validators provide the decentralisation, they have to AGREE to use it or opt out, otherwise its far more centalised
But we're talking machines here working it out, they'll need a set of parameters to agree, no? Otherwise it's just random chance that a hotspot happens to be added to lists. It'll only take Validators to reject/chose not to use lists, and the process falls over.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:33 AM
but giving ample time via discord/website is easy enough, adding bulk to the app isnt the right choice
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
if they think the dewi list is wrong, or being used in the wrong way, they can vote by not using it (edited)
That is not really going to happen. That would mean that every validator owner would need to check the list. That is not realistic
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you'd see it in app with your activity, its not like it stops just goes invalid
I think Cap should personally give me a knock on the door and let me know if one of my hotspots is banned tbh.
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0weavern
But we're talking machines here working it out, they'll need a set of parameters to agree, no? Otherwise it's just random chance that a hotspot happens to be added to lists. It'll only take Validators to reject/chose not to use lists, and the process falls over.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:34 AM
thats why the dewi list is opt out, most will use it, if they think hip40 is usefull
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but giving ample time via discord/website is easy enough, adding bulk to the app isnt the right choice
Now Helium is (slightly) more mainstream, we should probably build it into the app as a push notification with a link to a resource which allows appeal
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:34 AM
you realise how rare it'll be right for a community list to make it onto all validators?
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This creates uncertainty and risks for businesses.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:34 AM
one bit of feedback from the validators i had was they want opt out
03:34
setup for them
03:34
nothing they have to do
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you'd see it in app with your activity, its not like it stops just goes invalid
kupcoin🎈 12/21/2021 3:35 AM
i mean for the appeal before a ban... so you are able to show the proof before something happens if for some reason an honest gateway for some reason come under fire
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats why the dewi list is opt out, most will use it, if they think hip40 is usefull
I get that - but it's also open to abuse. It also takes the vote away from the community and into the hands of 3k validators. We could all vote to implement, but then validators all opt-out, making it useless. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
one bit of feedback from the validators i had was they want opt out
Yes, so in reality it is down to a single list created with unclear rules and governance. That is not how you can run such a network
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kupcoin🎈
i mean for the appeal before a ban... so you are able to show the proof before something happens if for some reason an honest gateway for some reason come under fire
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:37 AM
the issue really is, the code to implement this, is fairly trivial, helium have said they'd code it. adding app alerts to wallets will make this far more complex, and im not sure they'd support it
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Testa
Yes, so in reality it is down to a single list created with unclear rules and governance. That is not how you can run such a network
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:37 AM
i agree with you
03:37
we need far more definitions
03:37
but at this stage its just a temperature check for how the community feels
03:38
we've had talks with dewi about the committee, defining it and what its set out to do
03:38
think MoC for PoC
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the issue really is, the code to implement this, is fairly trivial, helium have said they'd code it. adding app alerts to wallets will make this far more complex, and im not sure they'd support it
kupcoin🎈 12/21/2021 3:39 AM
there should really be away to tag a gateway with some kind of transaction from the committee that would notify the accused
03:39
say an appeal transaction to the wallet or something
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:40 AM
a new transaction types a lot of work
03:40
I'll definitely think of ways to work something out (if its possible)
03:40
I agree that some notification (i wonder if we can do push or something)
03:40
to notify them sounds like a great idea
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In my opinion the idea of a denylist is in general a good idea. But what is presented here, is pretty bad. It seems that there could be a lot of abuse and it‘s not transparent enough for a decentralized Network….
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trannely
In my opinion the idea of a denylist is in general a good idea. But what is presented here, is pretty bad. It seems that there could be a lot of abuse and it‘s not transparent enough for a decentralized Network….
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:41 AM
thats why we're doing the temperature vote
03:41
to see if the ideas good, to then define it all
03:41
bring transparency to every step, but don't want to waste time if its not supported
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
bring transparency to every step, but don't want to waste time if its not supported
Just wanted to express my concerns since a lot of people think the hip is pretty good how it is according to the temperature vote.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:44 AM
this is something we want to be seen as out in the open, part of the committee selection is making sure the community have representation and not just techs telling you whats gaming and the opportunity for you to represent your peers if you wish to step up to the role
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ethlongmusk 12/21/2021 3:44 AM
Would like to see some form of this, but definitely needs to be done right as it too could be abused. How dynamic would such a list be? What would be the process for propagating the list, would it be public, or more like a shadowban? (A public list would obviously allow for spoofers to change their tactics, while a shadow list might make it more difficult for an "innocent" to get caught up without a mechanism for rebuttal). What would be the process for appealing one's inclusion on the list?
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trannely
In my opinion the idea of a denylist is in general a good idea. But what is presented here, is pretty bad. It seems that there could be a lot of abuse and it‘s not transparent enough for a decentralized Network….
also I think I can think of cases where it would be hard to prove you're innocent. I think adding to denylist should be based on some hard evidence from the data and not being "suspicious" in general. These rules should be clear right from the start, otherwise there would be some fear and uncertainty as mentioned above
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ethlongmusk
Would like to see some form of this, but definitely needs to be done right as it too could be abused. How dynamic would such a list be? What would be the process for propagating the list, would it be public, or more like a shadowban? (A public list would obviously allow for spoofers to change their tactics, while a shadow list might make it more difficult for an "innocent" to get caught up without a mechanism for rebuttal). What would be the process for appealing one's inclusion on the list?
shadow bans are terrible idea IMO, it should be public
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ethlongmusk
Would like to see some form of this, but definitely needs to be done right as it too could be abused. How dynamic would such a list be? What would be the process for propagating the list, would it be public, or more like a shadowban? (A public list would obviously allow for spoofers to change their tactics, while a shadow list might make it more difficult for an "innocent" to get caught up without a mechanism for rebuttal). What would be the process for appealing one's inclusion on the list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:45 AM
public list, everything still works as normal but activity comes back invalid with reason deny, the list would be voted on monthly/every 2 weeks by selected committee members and needs super majority for a ban to be added
03:45
reactions to hacks can be WEEKS, not months from hip's (edited)
03:46
previously, hacks have run rampant for months before hips were implemented to fix them
03:46
and if a hack is found, and patched, the list can be updated quickly to remove the bans
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
public list, everything still works as normal but activity comes back invalid with reason deny, the list would be voted on monthly/every 2 weeks by selected committee members and needs super majority for a ban to be added
will there be a compensation for incorrectly imposed ban? 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:46 AM
no
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ethlongmusk 12/21/2021 3:47 AM
I think retro payment would be a bad idea
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Then thats a bit sketchy, if you're prove you're innocent and you lost two weeks/month of revenue
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
no
kupcoin🎈 12/21/2021 3:47 AM
how long would it take to get off the list
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I mean it is not your fault, why should you pay for the incorrectly imposed ban?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:48 AM
the ides is the list is fetched twice daily, so if the committee voted you could get off very quickly
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wolas
Then thats a bit sketchy, if you're prove you're innocent and you lost two weeks/month of revenue
And also very hard to prove amount (above and beyond averages). Goes back to the ago old "rewards fluctuate" argument.
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0weavern
And also very hard to prove amount (above and beyond averages). Goes back to the ago old "rewards fluctuate" argument.
I agree. What about these earned amount are "frozen" until ban is released?
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wolas
I agree. What about these earned amount are "frozen" until ban is released?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:49 AM
not technically possible
03:49
a transaction is denied, or accepted
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03:49
we can't hold
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the ides is the list is fetched twice daily, so if the committee voted you could get off very quickly
kupcoin🎈 12/21/2021 3:49 AM
but i think you said list would be voted monthly/every 2 weeks?
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ethlongmusk 12/21/2021 3:49 AM
Chalk it up to bad luck. So long as any list addition is done with forethought and errs on the side of innocent until proven guilty, such victims should be edge cases
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kupcoin🎈
but i think you said list would be voted monthly/every 2 weeks?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:49 AM
theres no reason we cant put a clause in for appeals to form something for an emergency vote
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wolas
I agree. What about these earned amount are "frozen" until ban is released?
the compensation isnt $ or HNT, itts been brought back into a cleaner environment where your earn more hnt. if that makes sense (edited)
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There should be a reason list to be open and clear why someone is banned. 46 hotspots on 1 wallet only witnessing themselfs, would be a perma ban imo. No need to spend time to unban those guys (edited)
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ethlongmusk
Chalk it up to bad luck. So long as any list addition is done with forethought and errs on the side of innocent until proven guilty, such victims should be edge cases
yea I have heard about "edge cases" in helium already and been an "edge case" myself, so I am against such approach
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De_Spyker
There should be a reason list to be open and clear why someone is banned. 46 hotspots on 1 wallet only witnessing themselfs, would be a perma ban imo. No need to spend time to unban those guys (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:51 AM
yep, the identified evidence needs to be presented in an open and clear way for sure, one thing is that revealing such evidence would also show how their doing the hack or how its been spotted alerting other hackers, so we need to be careful
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Before discuss the topic, maybe we should make sure what is spoof
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De_Spyker
There should be a reason list to be open and clear why someone is banned. 46 hotspots on 1 wallet only witnessing themselfs, would be a perma ban imo. No need to spend time to unban those guys (edited)
Why if your somewhere and build your own network… I know what you mean with all the pisces, but here normal setups are going to get hurt to…
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:51 AM
need be be open, but at the same time cautious revealing everything
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YTLin
Before discuss the topic, maybe we should make sure what is spoof
exactly, I think this is crucial
03:52
I think it needs to be said, what type of evidence is considered "good enough"
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i'm sure we can tie this in with mapping information
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wolas
I think it needs to be said, what type of evidence is considered "good enough"
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:53 AM
theres no golden bullet to that question tho, it'll be a clear sign of abuse of the network that isn't just one factor (eg ip in different country to asertion)
03:53
it should be many
03:53
and then the committee take that suspision and research the hotspots
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
theres no golden bullet to that question tho, it'll be a clear sign of abuse of the network that isn't just one factor (eg ip in different country to asertion)
that's a terrible evidence actually. I explained that a few days ago with VPN scenario
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03:54
IP geolaction is a terrible practice and should be avoided
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:54 AM
some of that could include boots on the ground mapping from trusted community members, but using that evidence alone can't be done, it cant be trusted
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wolas
IP geolaction is a terrible practice and should be avoided
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:54 AM
yep
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
theres no golden bullet to that question tho, it'll be a clear sign of abuse of the network that isn't just one factor (eg ip in different country to asertion)
maybe a pre ban flag on the APP, so people can take action before a ban is implamented
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That’s why some radio hobbies feel frustrated
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
some of that could include boots on the ground mapping from trusted community members, but using that evidence alone can't be done, it cant be trusted
it'll put the mapping efforts to good use
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ethlongmusk 12/21/2021 3:55 AM
This area contains definite spoofs. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11xPd6FdyMSTbe1BibdgWHZ9YqGiWAK735uBERsF4DBh8AKrLfk not sure how to put it into specific violations, but a "know when you see it" is probably not good enough.
03:56
Back when explorer showed actual locations of hotspots, the locations were perfectly dispersed. Also my mapper could not talk to a single spot after driving within 30m of several spots.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:56 AM
part of talking to dewi about the committee, it was expressed interested about a ML grant thats going through, this ML information whilst young, could be used to help define gamers and the signs and dectection, im not saying its the ONLY source of imformation, just that the ideas are there to help DEFINE gaming more so that maybe one day such a panel and list would be an automated process
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03:57
but at this stage, having nothing is bad, this is a step further, but not near the perfect end solution
03:57
its about loosing some concerns and having SOMETHING in to start the ball moving towards a system we can change and define into something better
03:58
and then maybe one day hip40 is removed in favour of better tools, thats the end goal that it DOESN'T need to be used
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
part of talking to dewi about the committee, it was expressed interested about a ML grant thats going through, this ML information whilst young, could be used to help define gamers and the signs and dectection, im not saying its the ONLY source of imformation, just that the ideas are there to help DEFINE gaming more so that maybe one day such a panel and list would be an automated process
ML and anomaly detection is definitely a way to go. One example I know is chess.com - it is similar problem - it's hard to prove that someone is cheating in on-line chess, yet they claim they have an statistical/ML algorthim and they're willing to prove in court that someone was cheating, unfortunately it is undisclosed
03:59
so data mining can be an answer to this problem, or at least one factor to be considered
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:59 AM
if you look back to hacks in the past, modesto took i think 6 months for a hip to be formed to stop them, in that time they took millions, the hip process is slow and this is the first swift tool that can be used for action, untill better systems are in place
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ethlongmusk 12/21/2021 4:01 AM
In the event a consensus for determining spoofs is reached, would there be any possibility of a bounty program for discovering them?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:01 AM
not at this stage
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:01 AM
Data mining does indeed reveal some things that appear to be unique to spoofer clusters
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:01 AM
that would be far to many code changes, and a totally new hip idea
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Agreed - it should be a 'risk score' made up of many different factors. I remember implementing something similar back at an old job to pick our fraudsters trying the 'game' a game we had. (edited)
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0weavern
Agreed - it should be a 'risk score' made up of many different factors. I remember implementing something similar back at an old job to pick our fraudsters trying the 'game' a game we had. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:02 AM
you got it right
04:03
so we have a multiude of factors, not just one factor, all combining thats then taken for a vote
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:03 AM
Yup, we investigated a few factors that may be indicative of spoofing and it did surprisingly well.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:03 AM
of which 66.6% a super majority have to agree
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:03 AM
Of course without any ground truth 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:03 AM
that way weak/little evidence will never stand
04:03
and the people doing the voting will be selected members for their background as well as community peers for openness
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And they can all be weighted according to risk. ie IP in a different location to asserted would be low, but when combined with a high risk like 'only witnessing hotspots you own' would potentially push above a threshold to get added to a list.
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there must be some risk and fraud detection algorithms we can apply
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Would also give a potential 'target list' for people to investigate/mappers to focus on etc rather than fumbling around in the dark.
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:05 AM
Yes, when you look on the chain there are some clearly unique aspects of PoC transactions likely related to spoofers
04:07
So you can evaluate risk in a general way that scales across the entire network
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0weavern
And they can all be weighted according to risk. ie IP in a different location to asserted would be low, but when combined with a high risk like 'only witnessing hotspots you own' would potentially push above a threshold to get added to a list.
I don't know about that, I own a small cluster of hotspots in a small city with noone in ~30km around, that does not mean I am cheating. It would be easy for me to prove but I am afraid I could be this "edge" case again and my revenue could be affected by these false accusations. I think we need something more solid than these IP geolocation/witnessing own
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0weavern
And they can all be weighted according to risk. ie IP in a different location to asserted would be low, but when combined with a high risk like 'only witnessing hotspots you own' would potentially push above a threshold to get added to a list.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:07 AM
like the ip issue, why would uk miners use a vpn in china? not that its bad alone, but if say i was on the committee and i visited it, we'd then have a possible second sign, mappers data. then we could look and maybe find that they have witnesses that are invalid in china for their beacons, or say their beacons always return the same rssi /snr values. maybe then we see ML is giving early signs of spoofted figures or little differences, build up the evidence from many factors and then submit for the committee to vote on
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
hey @TheJWays would love some feedback 🙂
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I meant to press the needs rework not the thumbsdown. Didn't realize that you can vote for multiple options. I thought it would take the thumbsdown away when I pressed the rework. I'ts corrected now. About my opinion: I generally really like this HIP. I just see one major problem: I think that denied miners will be resold to unsuspecting victims who pay full price to the spoofer and then get useless hardware in return. There should be some mechanism to remove the ban when the miner changes owners. Thats the reason why I think some rework is needed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
like the ip issue, why would uk miners use a vpn in china? not that its bad alone, but if say i was on the committee and i visited it, we'd then have a possible second sign, mappers data. then we could look and maybe find that they have witnesses that are invalid in china for their beacons, or say their beacons always return the same rssi /snr values. maybe then we see ML is giving early signs of spoofted figures or little differences, build up the evidence from many factors and then submit for the committee to vote on
devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:08 AM
We investigated this, actually spoofers generally have significantly higher PoC RSSI distributions than other hotspots (edited)
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wolas
I don't know about that, I own a small cluster of hotspots in a small city with noone in ~30km around, that does not mean I am cheating. It would be easy for me to prove but I am afraid I could be this "edge" case again and my revenue could be affected by these false accusations. I think we need something more solid than these IP geolocation/witnessing own
That's what I meant - if it were just one, low risk thing then you wouldn't 'score' high enough to be a risk. But if combined with multiple low or 1-2 high risks, like mapper data being in the area by your hotspot didn't pick any up, despite being in the middle of it, then that might push you above the risk threshold.
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TheJWays
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I meant to press the needs rework not the thumbsdown. Didn't realize that you can vote for multiple options. I thought it would take the thumbsdown away when I pressed the rework. I'ts corrected now. About my opinion: I generally really like this HIP. I just see one major problem: I think that denied miners will be resold to unsuspecting victims who pay full price to the spoofer and then get useless hardware in return. There should be some mechanism to remove the ban when the miner changes owners. Thats the reason why I think some rework is needed
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:09 AM
sounds reasonable for sure, i wonder if some "probation list" needs to be created and their moved to that list (not banned but on notice) and if signs of gaming appear again they are added straight back (edited)
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04:09
i mean it would be reasonable enough
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TheJWays
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I meant to press the needs rework not the thumbsdown. Didn't realize that you can vote for multiple options. I thought it would take the thumbsdown away when I pressed the rework. I'ts corrected now. About my opinion: I generally really like this HIP. I just see one major problem: I think that denied miners will be resold to unsuspecting victims who pay full price to the spoofer and then get useless hardware in return. There should be some mechanism to remove the ban when the miner changes owners. Thats the reason why I think some rework is needed
changed owner and reasserted location. But they can bypass this by changing the account and reasserting in 3m away from the original spot
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wolas
changed owner and reasserted location. But they can bypass this by changing the account and reasserting in 3m away from the original spot
or just start using a vpn and pick a different country to target
04:10
but then if you find the same HSs in a new cluster, that could be a flag
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@wolas @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I agree. But there has to be a way to protect unsuspecting newcomers from buying useless hardware. Thats going to create a whole lot of negative PR which influences the entire network.
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0weavern
That's what I meant - if it were just one, low risk thing then you wouldn't 'score' high enough to be a risk. But if combined with multiple low or 1-2 high risks, like mapper data being in the area by your hotspot didn't pick any up, despite being in the middle of it, then that might push you above the risk threshold.
Sure yea I get it, but this list needs to be much more bigger and more solid. I think it is crucial to prepare such a list and then decide on this HIP
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i would say some spoof assert on impossible location like military based or government building. maybe could do those first
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either way it sounds like just manual labour wouldn't solve this. we'd need to track HSs across the hex grid
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TheJWays
@wolas @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I agree. But there has to be a way to protect unsuspecting newcomers from buying useless hardware. Thats going to create a whole lot of negative PR which influences the entire network.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:12 AM
I think the odd bad hotspot vs the amount of conversation about gaming we have and comments like "helium wont do anything" would out-way the odd hotspot that might have to wait a week or two to earn (and could appeal)
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some automation here would help for sure
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TheJWays
@wolas @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I agree. But there has to be a way to protect unsuspecting newcomers from buying useless hardware. Thats going to create a whole lot of negative PR which influences the entire network.
devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:12 AM
You could do this with an alert when they try to add the hotspot that says this is on a blocklist here is what you should do (edited)
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devsdevsdevs
You could do this with an alert when they try to add the hotspot that says this is on a blocklist here is what you should do (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:12 AM
please call it a denylist 🙂
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:12 AM
Blocklist sorry
04:13
Yeah understood, sorry
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:13 AM
😉
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devsdevsdevs
You could do this with an alert when they try to add the hotspot that says this is on a blocklist here is what you should do (edited)
Yes but at the time of the transfer it will aready be too late since the buyer has already paid for the hotspot (e.g. on ebay)
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The more I think about this the more I am convinced that this would be a huge improvement BUT only if done right, this could backfire easily if done poorly
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wetsqueegee 12/21/2021 4:14 AM
I feel like the ban list would be massive. I get pissed someone puts a hotspot to close to me. I'll teach that guy, I'm going to submit a request kinda idea, in notime the voting becomes overwhelmed with submissions
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wolas
The more I think about this the more I am convinced that this would be a huge improvement BUT only if done right, this could backfire easily if done poorly
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:14 AM
yep, it needs a lot of community effort to organise, agree and define
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What is the current procedure for adding hotspots to the denylist?
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wetsqueegee
I feel like the ban list would be massive. I get pissed someone puts a hotspot to close to me. I'll teach that guy, I'm going to submit a request kinda idea, in notime the voting becomes overwhelmed with submissions
Some of my hotspots are already on suspots because a guy was angry at my "impossible" rewards 😂 (edited)
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TheJWays
What is the current procedure for adding hotspots to the denylist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:15 AM
the exact process is up for talk, we're just talking about the idea at this stage
04:15
wanting a community temperature vote
04:15
before i ask help from everyone to define it
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Supply&Demand 12/21/2021 4:15 AM
so this applies to people having more than one miner in the same household right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:15 AM
not all gaming, its designed to target the worst of it
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:15 AM
You may want to look at how spamhaus.org operates their email server blocklist. It’s very widely used.
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Sloth
Some of my hotspots are already on suspots because a guy was angry at my "impossible" rewards 😂 (edited)
Yea, it is easy to claim someone is cheating it's much harder to prove
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kind of populism
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the exact process is up for talk, we're just talking about the idea at this stage
Ok I see. Last time I checked in it was only meant for the worst offenders which could easily be determined mathematically. Are we back to the casting stones against hotspots we don't like idea? I hope not
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it's dangerous
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wolas
Yea, it is easy to claim someone is cheating it's much harder to prove
My hotspots are making about 2x~4x the average of my city because they are on the only high building in the whole area. I can imagine the are a very easy target for bad actors. (edited)
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TheJWays
Ok I see. Last time I checked in it was only meant for the worst offenders which could easily be determined mathematically. Are we back to the casting stones against hotspots we don't like idea? I hope not
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:16 AM
no, not all gaming dont worry
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
not all gaming, its designed to target the worst of it
Supply&Demand 12/21/2021 4:16 AM
AH ok I have 2 friends that are room mates and they both set up a miner. Crazy thing is the generate more HNT than me smh lol (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:17 AM
i mean the perfect example right now is the piscies clusters, that size
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
no, not all gaming dont worry
If its a cummunity vote system then that's going to be abused to hell and back
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:17 AM
is it, isnt it? lets define the process
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TheJWays
If its a cummunity vote system then that's going to be abused to hell and back
a comitee vote, not the whole community I believe
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wolas
a comitee vote, not the whole community I believe
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:17 AM
yep, committee vote
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yep, committee vote
Ok nice
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:18 AM
made up of people from a security backround, AND selected peers from the community that are voted for
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There will be people from the community in the committee
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:18 AM
to make sure its an open process
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:18 AM
Other thing to consider is that there could be a situation where someone goes for a lawsuit (against DeWi?) if they think they were unfairly blocked. That happened with email spam.
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yea, that sounds good
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I just hope that it's not going to be a system à la "Hey my neighbour is making more than me. He MUST be hacking. BAN HIM!!!"
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:19 AM
So some risk is being taken by whoever runs the blocklist
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TheJWays
I just hope that it's not going to be a system à la "Hey my neighbour is making more than me. He MUST be hacking. BAN HIM!!!"
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:19 AM
not for that kind of gaming 😉
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That would just be detrimental to the whole project
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:19 AM
most gaming is actually covered by hips way better than this
04:20
#hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit #hip-44-witness-reward-decay
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What is the target group of this HIP? Big Pisces gaming clusters like the ones that are around?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
most gaming is actually covered by hips way better than this
I agree
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TheJWays
What is the target group of this HIP? Big Pisces gaming clusters like the ones that are around?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:20 AM
theres obviously some level of community consern around the piscies clusters
04:20
its that type of possible gaming that would be selected for review
04:20
not just someone down the road who's off 300m from their asserted location
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
theres obviously some level of community consern around the piscies clusters
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:22 AM
There are distinct patterns that can be seen wallet to wallet that identifies the real world owner to have multiple wallet addresses
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:23 AM
right now we have nothing we can do with that data tho thats the issue 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
right now we have nothing we can do with that data tho thats the issue 🙂
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:24 AM
Yep, my concern is that swift and decisive action will not be taken and that this will continue to grow and become more sophisticated to the point that this HIP will no longer be easy to implement
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bigdaveakers
Yep, my concern is that swift and decisive action will not be taken and that this will continue to grow and become more sophisticated to the point that this HIP will no longer be easy to implement
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:24 AM
same
04:24
its about having a starting point here, some action
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I like to support any idea to do something against all utilizations of our great community/network
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:25 AM
it might not be perfect, but its better than letting the issue grow over the next 6 months whilst we wait for hips
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:25 AM
Again on the lawsuit issue, spamhouse once had to pay 11M to a spammer who said they were unfairly blocked, so one may want to understand a bit more about legal implications of doing this
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it might not be perfect, but its better than letting the issue grow over the next 6 months whilst we wait for hips
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:26 AM
I would propose that a trial is run.......immediately......on Pisces clusters!
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devsdevsdevs
Again on the lawsuit issue, spamhouse once had to pay 11M to a spammer who said they were unfairly blocked, so one may want to understand a bit more about legal implications of doing this
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:26 AM
we had some chat about it, from what i remember we were talking about how you aren't promised earnings when you buy a helium hotspot, there are no guarantees that you will earn
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io how can i help and support?
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:31 AM
I looked at the top 50 (by number of hotspots) wallets of Pisces and many of the clusters overlapped. So possibly only 15 locations to deploy mappers provide independent results and get them on the list by Christmas. 3320 hotspots or around 1% of currently active hotspots.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we had some chat about it, from what i remember we were talking about how you aren't promised earnings when you buy a helium hotspot, there are no guarantees that you will earn
devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:31 AM
It turns out actually that lawsuit dragged on for years and kinda went nowhere but took a lot of time and energy. As long as DeWi is operating the list and they assume legal responsibility for what happens when someone is blocked I think it’s fine, it’s just a risk they must consider.
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bigdaveakers
I looked at the top 50 (by number of hotspots) wallets of Pisces and many of the clusters overlapped. So possibly only 15 locations to deploy mappers provide independent results and get them on the list by Christmas. 3320 hotspots or around 1% of currently active hotspots.
in germany we mapped some pisces clusters. there is no contact, so there is no miner!
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Yeah the whole thing is a bit of a double edged sword
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Totz1975
in germany we mapped some pisces clusters. there is no contact, so there is no miner!
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:33 AM
Yes, this is also provable by looking at the beacon/witness data and can be backed up by the link to Chinese IP addresses etc
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:33 AM
Yep
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I would be careful with it (edited)
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TheJWays
I would be careful with it (edited)
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:34 AM
The other option is to accept that there is a level of gaming and just accept it. Although I still think effort should be expended to define the scale of the issue
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bigdaveakers
The other option is to accept that there is a level of gaming and just accept it. Although I still think effort should be expended to define the scale of the issue
At the end of the day this could turn out to be the better overal solution for the network
04:35
Instead of having to deal with lawsuits
04:35
and general problems in the comunity accusing each other
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there should be some principle guidelines on how long the ban is instantiated for. for example, minor gaming / gain related, small location difference etc: = 2 weeks major gaming, professional, no POC value = ban for a year / permanent
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bigdaveakers
The other option is to accept that there is a level of gaming and just accept it. Although I still think effort should be expended to define the scale of the issue
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:35 AM
Exactly, there's a big side to this, does the amount of gaming justify the effort of adding this complexity and centralisation of access to earnings (edited)
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I try to setup customers with sensors, the real proof of coveredge is realy important. I'm afraid that the network lose the trust in front of customers. So i have to do something against these guys...
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Is it possible to get any numbers on gaming?
04:36
Have there been educated estimates
04:36
Because it really might not be worth it at the end of the day
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TheJWays
Is it possible to get any numbers on gaming?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:36 AM
The community would need to do more research, there isn't much about the levels of gaming at the moment
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would be cool if the person finding/submitting the gamer could get some rewards for investigation, but that seems technically too difficult
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:36 AM
But generally, the networks currently in the best state it's been in for a long time
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But generally, the networks currently in the best state it's been in for a long time
I agree. Question is if we really want to bombard it with this HIP
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:37 AM
Hense the vote, does the community want action?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Exactly, there's a big side to this, does the amount of gaming justify the effort of adding this complexity and centralisation of access to earnings (edited)
besides the actual amount of gaming, its also about setting an example (prevents future gaming) and some satisfaction to the persons running an honest shop.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Hense the vote, does the community want action?
It's very important though that the voters understand what they are voting for. currently it's more being sold as "do you want us to remove gaming"
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Exactly, there's a big side to this, does the amount of gaming justify the effort of adding this complexity and centralisation of access to earnings (edited)
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:38 AM
I have asked previously about stats on gaming, people dont want to put the work in to get the data and will band around random numbers. What is the threshold that makes such action worthwhile 10%, 20%, 50%?
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Without knowing the side effect (Centralisation and Law problems)
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TheJWays
It's very important though that the voters understand what they are voting for. currently it's more being sold as "do you want us to remove gaming"
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:39 AM
yep i agree im trying to spread awareness
04:39
I've got a youtube live coming up, topic of gaming/spoofing (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I've got a youtube live coming up, topic of gaming/spoofing (edited)
Looking forward to it!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:40 AM
trying to do as much as i can to give both sides
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Personally I fear that this HIP in it's current state will backfire
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where and when can be voted?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:40 AM
from a dewi perspective, they currently dont comment on gaming at all, this is public raction to it
04:40
that could a bad thing for sure
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:40 AM
It is clear that there is an issue around spoofing locations - this is not new, but since PoCv11 has moved them all to Europe it has become a hot topic. But, what other sorts of gaming are prevalent and what data is available to support it
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It would be cool to get a stance from DeWi on this
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Ivan
where and when can be voted?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:41 AM
https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/922799856664346654 its just a discord vote for a temperature check at this stage
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To get rough numbers
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:41 AM
the full hip would likely go through heliumvote.com
04:42
(the weighting of the vote can be decided too, doesnt have to be funds like the last one)
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I'm really interested to see where this goes !
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:42 AM
This one might make sense to weigh on number of hotspots owned
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TheJWays
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I meant to press the needs rework not the thumbsdown. Didn't realize that you can vote for multiple options. I thought it would take the thumbsdown away when I pressed the rework. I'ts corrected now. About my opinion: I generally really like this HIP. I just see one major problem: I think that denied miners will be resold to unsuspecting victims who pay full price to the spoofer and then get useless hardware in return. There should be some mechanism to remove the ban when the miner changes owners. Thats the reason why I think some rework is needed
If it changes ownership, location, who it witnesses, who witnesses it and all the invalids ... then it would probably drop out of the deny list on review.
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:43 AM
As in: how invested as you in building the network itself. Unless the gamers all have may more hotspots than anyone else
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waveform
If it changes ownership, location, who it witnesses, who witnesses it and all the invalids ... then it would probably drop out of the deny list on review.
a real gamer should be punished, not rewarded by selling it for 3x on graigslist 😉 permaban! (edited)
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derek
a real gamer should be punished, not rewarded by selling it for 3x on graigslist 😉 permaban! (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:45 AM
with supply chains like they are, I'd hate to see a hotspot be wasted
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devsdevsdevs
As in: how invested as you in building the network itself. Unless the gamers all have may more hotspots than anyone else
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:45 AM
For Pisces, 20 wallets own a total of 1678 hotspots - I suspect that if you looked hard enough these would go back to 1 or 2 real world owners
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:45 AM
I know the issue would be small, to be clear i dont think the list would be huge
04:45
but still
04:45
wasted hotspots , permaban isnt a good idea
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:45 AM
Imho the other risk here is that it makes a dent in the idea that PoC is an effective way of defining value in this blockchain
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:46 AM
its a very public reaction to gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
wasted hotspots , permaban isnt a good idea
but how would you know it is sold, instead of attached to a new wallet / setup / to another gamer.
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derek
but how would you know it is sold, instead of attached to a new wallet / setup / to another gamer.
I think selling is far more likely than building a new gaming setup everytime you get caught no?
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devsdevsdevs
Imho the other risk here is that it makes a dent in the idea that PoC is an effective way of defining value in this blockchain
The idea is to include a feed back loop back to improve POC using the committee and data.
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TheJWays
I think selling is far more likely than building a new gaming setup everytime you get caught no?
sell them and buy new ones for gaming would be safest
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:47 AM
yeah the committee could deny, the hack could be fixed, and then the hotspots taken off the list (edited)
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by making it public list, we can use that as input for a machine learning model to find more similar cases.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:48 AM
yeah theres a funded dewi grant for ML
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04:48
that person would likely be pulled onto the committee as part of the formation
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That being said ML can become a black box where you don’t know how it’s doing it, it just does it.
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ap
That being said ML can become a black box where you don’t know how it’s doing it, it just does it.
yeah it would just deliver input for the committee, still requires manual validation
cooldoge 1
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ap
The idea is to include a feed back loop back to improve POC using the committee and data.
devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:50 AM
Makes sense, I’m just pointing out that the perception today is that PoC works surprisingly well as a distributed way of defining value, and isn’t so easy to game. If there is a blocklist that might challenge the notion that there are technical ways to update PoC to address all gaming issues
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im at a bank where we do the same thing with transaction monitoring and thousands of KYC analists.
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derek
by making it public list, we can use that as input for a machine learning model to find more similar cases.
Perhaps we can collect informations and in the first step we can report them like the scammers.
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Totz1975
Perhaps we can collect informations and in the first step we can report them like the scammers.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:52 AM
kinda like what radrobs done, thats why he started suspots.com
04:52
but like was just mentioned, the list is open for public submission and has already lead to some false positives
04:52
but it would be interesting to train some models on those hotspots data
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:53 AM
You need ground truth to train
04:53
We looked into this a bit using our own hotspots as ground truth
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:53 AM
yeah, setup hacking on purpose almost
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:53 AM
(Legit hotspots)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:53 AM
try and avoid it and train detection
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 4:53 AM
And there is a pretty big difference in RSSI distribution
04:54
Scammers have tighter clusters around fewer RSSI values
04:54
And they are generally higher
04:54
Which makes sense imho, but I can think of real world examples where that could happen too
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:54 AM
thats a pretty big margin so far tho
04:55
i think its really important the needs more work people stick around and help define it
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The discovery mode used to be very helpful to create clarity in the environment. Together with mappers, you could find out the actually placed miners very quickly.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:57 AM
you just cant trust the data at the moment
04:58
either person or device could be a weakness
04:58
there is an idea floating round about secure mappers
04:58
I like to use the idea of loose trust right
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there is an idea floating round about secure mappers
yes, i think about an certified mapper. but who shall certify it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:58 AM
i dont know you, i couldn't trust your mappers data right
04:59
but say, for example I did trust @ap (i do bud <3) i could ask him to map, and that loose trust is there
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Totz1975
The discovery mode used to be very helpful to create clarity in the environment. Together with mappers, you could find out the actually placed miners very quickly.
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 4:59 AM
I have suggested that disco mode is changed so that it is network initiated and ramdomised to collect data
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 5:00 AM
I think the fundamental issue is creating a realistic real world RF environment with coax and attenuators and whether they are using is really expensive. However, it may not be that hard for them to manipulate things like RSSI reported by the network card.
05:00
So in the end, you might need mappers 🙂
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devsdevsdevs
I think the fundamental issue is creating a realistic real world RF environment with coax and attenuators and whether they are using is really expensive. However, it may not be that hard for them to manipulate things like RSSI reported by the network card.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:00 AM
in the grand scheme of things a few hotspots and some equipment wouldn't be hard to secure (edited)
05:01
simulate, white hat try to game, improve detection methods
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but say, for example I did trust @ap (i do bud <3) i could ask him to map, and that loose trust is there
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:01 AM
If restrictions were not in place on travel I suspect that a handful of 'trusted' people could target many of the suspect areas in fairly short time
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bigdaveakers
If restrictions were not in place on travel I suspect that a handful of 'trusted' people could target many of the suspect areas in fairly short time
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:01 AM
exactly
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 5:01 AM
Right, I’m just saying the idea of PoC is really nice, it would be cool to see exactly what it’s limitations are (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:01 AM
i mean there will always be areas that many couldn't get to
05:02
but if they could, some form of loose trust could exist to use the current mappers data
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i mean there will always be areas that many couldn't get to
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:02 AM
Isn't that what drones are for?!
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bigdaveakers
Isn't that what drones are for?!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:02 AM
flying a drone to NZ?
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whats the arguments for voting no on this
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:02 AM
i mean, what if no one is trusted there
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i mean, what if no one is trusted there
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:03 AM
That is a bit harsh on New Zealanders!
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the validators?
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Shady
whats the arguments for voting no on this
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:03 AM
centralisation, a public reaction to gaming, false positives, way more effort than is justifiable for the amount of gaming (its all volunteer after all)
05:03
and generally a very blunt tool
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but say, for example I did trust @ap (i do bud <3) i could ask him to map, and that loose trust is there
Perhaps there is a way to setup peers/buddies. these guys must be aproved by an amount of moderators/members and when three of these peers check a hex and there is no miner, the spoofed one can be punished. but perhaps it will be a cat and mice game.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:04 AM
#hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit #hip-44-witness-reward-decay are both WAY better at combatting most gaming (edited)
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05:04
compared to this hip
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:04 AM
But also harder to implement
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bigdaveakers
I have suggested that disco mode is changed so that it is network initiated and ramdomised to collect data
Also a great idear
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Totz1975
Perhaps there is a way to setup peers/buddies. these guys must be aproved by an amount of moderators/members and when three of these peers check a hex and there is no miner, the spoofed one can be punished. but perhaps it will be a cat and mice game.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:04 AM
yeah many of us have built freindships here and some trust with others
05:05
for example i've never met bigdaveakers here, but I'd trust his mapping data
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Totz1975
Also a great idear
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:05 AM
I would see it complementary to this HIP to be honest as it is just another level of checking
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
for example i've never met bigdaveakers here, but I'd trust his mapping data
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:06 AM
It is not Christmas yet 💄
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 5:07 AM
But yeah the other idea is to fix some blemishes in PoC, but clarify it’s not perfect and anyway must become irrelevant for the network to survive
05:08
Just as another option furthering what @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io is saying about pushing this off to technical PoC updates
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:09 AM
we had a dewi meeting about it and thats what pretty much everyone agreed
05:09
it would be FAR better to work on PoC changes to secure PoC than to use this tool
05:09
but at the same time the current methods (hips) can take months
05:10
causing issues to drag out
05:10
in the security world, you mitigate first, stop the hack (deny) ,identify, patch, release (edited)
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devsdevsdevs 12/21/2021 5:10 AM
Yeah, tricky, so maybe temporary ban works then, or some sort of probation rather than perm ban as others have said
05:10
To give time until the PoC fixes come in
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:11 AM
thats the idea, some reaction, that can lead to poc being more secure, and then if this hips tools are not needed, we hit the killswitch
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats the idea, some reaction, that can lead to poc being more secure, and then if this hips tools are not needed, we hit the killswitch
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:12 AM
What is the prime gaming situation to address right now?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Hey folks, whilst not a full vote for implementing this HIP, there's been calls to run a temperature vote here to see if the idea of this HIP has support.
What if the spoofing group has also some validators under it's control? They will ofcourse not use the deny lists of their spoofing hotspots....
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Chris12
What if the spoofing group has also some validators under it's control? They will ofcourse not use the deny lists of their spoofing hotspots....
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:13 AM
sure, but out of all the validators, they would have to be in concensus
05:13
for their no list to count
05:13
so 99% of the time they will be banned with the odd bit getting through randomly
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
sure, but out of all the validators, they would have to be in concensus
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:14 AM
So would the deny list apply to each individual transaction (edited)
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Chris12
What if the spoofing group has also some validators under it's control? They will ofcourse not use the deny lists of their spoofing hotspots....
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:14 AM
it also means the validators would have to stake a lot of hnt
05:14
and lock it up for a long time
05:14
not a cheap hack
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what about beacons/challange/witness droped 50% from yesterday? :))
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RobertT
what about beacons/challange/witness droped 50% from yesterday? :))
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:14 AM
#questions-and-answers
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re: who should be on the committee, I would suggest validator operators, since they will be the ones having to manage it on their validators
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:15 AM
2.9k validators now, to get a decent portion of rewards through still they'd need a LOT of validators to get any noticeable difference, each at 10k and 5 months+ lockup
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gtelnet
re: who should be on the committee, I would suggest validator operators, since they will be the ones having to manage it on their validators
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:16 AM
the list would be opt-out for validators
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it also means the validators would have to stake a lot of hnt
A particuliar spoofing group has allready build up some validators.....
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yes, and those who opt-in would be a good group of people to have on the committee
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:16 AM
as for the committee, it would be made up of peers with a security background/helium background, and voted members of the public to secure openness.
05:17
for sure they could add a representative or select a few they recommend and the community could vote for them if they wish
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:19 AM
How long do you anticipate all of this to take before a deny list is in place? I would propose perhaps a targeted sub hip for blatant spoofing offenders as a proof of concept
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:19 AM
the codes not crazy from what i've been told, relatively small changes but the vote, the committee setup?
05:20
probably months right?
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:20 AM
Yeah, the whole shebang
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:21 AM
we've started some pre work on the committee stuff, basically we've assumed temp roles to form it, write its structure, documents etc, which im happy to do but it needs so much definition of action and aims to be decided and processes
05:21
so we thought temp vote, to see if the time doing it is justified
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:23 AM
Is there a more targeted approach that can be implemented in a shorter time frame to show intent and commitment. I am just thinking that the recent dump of 1000s of hotspots in a very structured and ordered way could be dealt with swiftly.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:23 AM
you cant implement the deny without having the full process
05:24
to open to abuse and false positives
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IMO we should have someone from the validator community too. @gtelnet if that’s what you’re trying to say.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you cant implement the deny without having the full process
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:26 AM
Just concerned that the timeframes mentioned will see opportunity for MANY more hotspots to enter the ecosystem and potentially become more of an issue
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bigdaveakers
Just concerned that the timeframes mentioned will see opportunity for MANY more hotspots to enter the ecosystem and potentially become more of an issue
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:28 AM
yeah i get that, but its about having a definition that people are happy with
05:28
if people were happy being vaguer about what is considered to get it going
05:28
that would help, but then you'll annoy many not defining it enough
05:29
i always use the term golden bullet, there isn't one, we cant be too precise or we'll be here in purgatory with no action forever defining it
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I'm still not over this having the DeWi list as opt-out.... Doesn't sit right with me for some reason. What would the purpose of opt-out for Validators be? They are able to vote with their staked HNT like any other member of the community in the HIP vote process. I think it's too big a risk to not have an absolute "this is 100% a denylist hotspot" list. It wouldn't necessarily be central, if the hotspot in question was voted/elevated to that list by the consensus, sourced by the community.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
theres obviously some level of community consern around the piscies clusters
PapaBertus666 12/21/2021 5:30 AM
I wrote that reddit post that was upvoted a lot yesterday. I want to wish you the best finding a solution!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Hey folks, whilst not a full vote for implementing this HIP, there's been calls to run a temperature vote here to see if the idea of this HIP has support.
Neal, if people go on the deny list is there a way to get off it, just curious 🧐
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0weavern
I'm still not over this having the DeWi list as opt-out.... Doesn't sit right with me for some reason. What would the purpose of opt-out for Validators be? They are able to vote with their staked HNT like any other member of the community in the HIP vote process. I think it's too big a risk to not have an absolute "this is 100% a denylist hotspot" list. It wouldn't necessarily be central, if the hotspot in question was voted/elevated to that list by the consensus, sourced by the community.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:30 AM
the concern was its too centralised of a forced change, allowing validators to implement it or not adds decentralisation to it and if its abused they can stop it (edited)
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robbo0
Neal, if people go on the deny list is there a way to get off it, just curious 🧐
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:31 AM
they can appeal yeah
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But if it's implemented in a way where hotspots can only be on the mandatory list by a consensus group vote (ie crowd sourcing from multiple community lists) then that would de-centralise it and avoid abuse.
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0weavern
But if it's implemented in a way where hotspots can only be on the mandatory list by a consensus group vote (ie crowd sourcing from multiple community lists) then that would de-centralise it and avoid abuse.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:33 AM
that could be done later
05:33
i mean we have NO lists right now
05:33
im proposing the first one
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so for the validator it is sort of binary. or they accept the list, or they dont. what about some kind of flag for each account? so they can manually remove some bans that they dont agree with?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:33 AM
not the only one
05:33
maybe the mechanics change later to poll from lists
05:33
but right now we need 1 at least
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
maybe the mechanics change later to poll from lists
05:34
Look that one
05:34
And around it
05:34
Spoofers to the max
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the concern was its too centralised of a forced change, allowing validators to implement it or not adds decentralisation to it and if its abused they can stop it (edited)
Could work something like this, if there are 7 validators in a consensus (I wasn't about to draw out 100's) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YPgvZhgVhRwS4JVyKLKaOC9J_wqelmgg/view?usp=sharing
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m-own-NL
And around it
Perfectly placed miners in 1 province.
05:35
Very very very bad
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0weavern
Could work something like this, if there are 7 validators in a consensus (I wasn't about to draw out 100's) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YPgvZhgVhRwS4JVyKLKaOC9J_wqelmgg/view?usp=sharing
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:35 AM
maybe eventually something like that
05:35
but you have to understand, there are no lists
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Nobody lives there😂
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m-own-NL
Perfectly placed miners in 1 province.
yeah this one has been mentioned over and over 😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:37 AM
and the uptake of lists beyond the first, i would assume would not be widespread. or trusted, it'll be hard to get lists going for a long time, maybe once we have more methods like you say could be done
05:37
but we need to get the mechanism for deny in first
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This is never be solved the spoofers
05:37
It will make helium sick.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
maybe eventually something like that
I jus think - if we're going to put something in place, we should put something robust and thought through that won't change again in 3-6 months time. From an outsiders POV it could be disruptive.
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0weavern
I jus think - if we're going to put something in place, we should put something robust and thought through that won't change again in 3-6 months time. From an outsiders POV it could be disruptive.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:38 AM
so sit with no action waiting for the perfect thing that could take months and months more
05:38
than stop the gamers ?
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I suggest implementing machine learning to detect abnormal patterns in hotspot activity
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Pheizx
I suggest implementing machine learning to detect abnormal patterns in hotspot activity
then you still need some manual validation. that is what this committee can do.
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I think with everything there’s a risk management side. How detrimental are situations and is there concrete proof versus speculation. I think this is a great start to a safety feature. I do think the DeWi list should just be default but anyone with “skills” could configure it out so there’s that unless it’s a chain var. Since this should be a feature that exists but should never be used. Until another Meerkat is seen (edited)
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m-own-NL
This is never be solved the spoofers
this HIP could be the fastest countermeasure. it can be agile to act swiftly. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
so sit with no action waiting for the perfect thing that could take months and months more
Not at all. I think it's a good idea, I think it's the start of something great, but having it optional simply makes it redundant. And work/effort would have been put in by devs/us/community to try and stamp out gamers of the system and it ends up being pseudo voted out as validators don't want it. Basically - putting the vote into the hands of 3k not 420k
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0weavern
Not at all. I think it's a good idea, I think it's the start of something great, but having it optional simply makes it redundant. And work/effort would have been put in by devs/us/community to try and stamp out gamers of the system and it ends up being pseudo voted out as validators don't want it. Basically - putting the vote into the hands of 3k not 420k
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:40 AM
they could do this without us now
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what is in it for the validators to remove the gamers?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:40 AM
validators could deny hotspots from connecting right this second, if they wanted to, this makes it an offical way, with a list, not perfect but a start
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We could build a dataset, and a good problem summary, and submit a Kaggle contest
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Hi, I'm new here, and it might be already discussed, but can't we use mappers.helium.com data to double check hotspot location? (edited)
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besides long-term / best for helium longterm
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Hip 40 needs more data and time to propose for voting.
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Pheizx
We could build a dataset, and a good problem summary, and submit a Kaggle contest
thats actually quite a nice idea.
05:42
this committee might create that dataset though. a curated list of true positives.
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plus Kaggle will bring visibility to Helium, its a win-win
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sbittante
Hi, I'm new here, and it might be already discussed, but can't we use mappers.helium.com data to double check hotspot location? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:42 AM
we cant, the data cant be trusted, anyone can submit data to that
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05:42
(and even fake data)
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but datasets need a LOT of data, and this might just be a few hundred accounts
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Pheizx
We could build a dataset, and a good problem summary, and submit a Kaggle contest
Hop over and submit a DeWi grant for this or expect to see it implemented in a couple years …
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we can build data with simulations, it doesn't need to be real data
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Once again someone needs to do the work to do it
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05:43
This denylist will require work to do but much less than ML
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I will have 2 weeks off starting this friday, will try to put time into this.
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:44 AM
OK, how about the first list is Select * from hotspots where payee = Pisces AND count per wallet > 20
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yeah i think we are all in favor of the deny list, but are so enthousiastic to brainstorm new features and future use cases
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richhomiecon 12/21/2021 5:45 AM
Nobody likes gaming, but my main concern is preserving the decentralization and lack of censorship for data transfer that makes Helium so special. Any anti-gaming HIP should meet extremely rigorous standards for Proven gaming before denying hotspot transactions
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richhomiecon
Nobody likes gaming, but my main concern is preserving the decentralization and lack of censorship for data transfer that makes Helium so special. Any anti-gaming HIP should meet extremely rigorous standards for Proven gaming before denying hotspot transactions
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:45 AM
me too, totally with you
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Hip are activated very slowly. When this will be approved
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:46 AM
its so hard to define what is gaming tho, at this stage we need human intervention to decide, to make sure its not false positives
05:46
to then train ML/better detection methods/solutions to solving them
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its so hard to define what is gaming tho, at this stage we need human intervention to decide, to make sure its not false positives
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:46 AM
This is why you should target the low hanging fruit
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05:47
And build sophistication in gradually
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:47 AM
trying lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
trying lol
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:47 AM
So what is the easiest gaming to detect and prove?
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first manual list, then use rules (sql) and supervised ML to find new cases of same situations (unknown knowns) and add anomaly detection algos as unsupervised (unknown unknowns)
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bigdaveakers
So what is the easiest gaming to detect and prove?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:48 AM
none
05:48
there is no one to detect it and prove
05:48
there is no way of flagging a gaming hotspot, or committee to look at that submission or anything, there is nothing we can do right now
05:49
so there is no easy gaming right now
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there should be some trust in the committee, not all detection rules should be public, because it helps gamers stay undetected.
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derek
there should be some trust in the committee, not all detection rules should be public, because it helps gamers stay undetected.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:49 AM
yep big consern, we find something , reveal it, then everyone else does it
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bigdaveakers
The other option is to accept that there is a level of gaming and just accept it. Although I still think effort should be expended to define the scale of the issue
In that case I remove all my miners from the network. The gaming keeps growing and hurting the fair revenues. I wouldn't fear the lawsuits, pretty weird argument
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
none
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:49 AM
There must be an idea of the type of gaming that requires attention.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:50 AM
sure there is
05:50
but again, we cant target it even if we were semi sure it was gaming?
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Good to see the topic is getting more attention though. Nice discussion
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
sure there is
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:51 AM
So start on a subset and build. The process will have to be refined and tuned progressively. If the attempt is to get everything watertight before action then it will never be passed
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zzeddd
In that case I remove all my miners from the network. The gaming keeps growing and hurting the fair revenues. I wouldn't fear the lawsuits, pretty weird argument
As long as there are incentives, there will be gaming. You can’t stop it completely without hurting a lot of legitimate hotspots.
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Not sure if this has been proposed, but wouldn't a first good step be to flag possible games and show this in the helium explorer(just like the "you are relayed and will earn less warning)"? Then we can see how many false positives there are, how people respond and play with variables. It makes people more aware that gaming is not-ok.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:52 AM
we have no process dude, understand me please, doesnt matter if we have proven gaming right now, we have nothing we can do with that data, this is why we're proposing the hip
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to define gaming is indeed a very hard problem, but we could define subsets of gaming and build detectors, divide and conquer 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:52 AM
we need the hip to help propose the process to then say ok, WHAT IS the state of the network like
05:52
what needs investigating etc
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How long will a ban last?
05:53
What are the condition for unban?
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Pendraloth
How long will a ban last?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:53 AM
the idea is to not be a permaban at least
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Pendraloth
What are the condition for unban?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:53 AM
nothing set yet
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Long_Live_Trust 12/21/2021 5:53 AM
I know a man's account who is moderator at discord server and behaving as the owner of a vendor. I have proofs that he's spoofing and encourage people for spoofing. What can Helium do against this? If you wish i can send more details.
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Long_Live_Trust
I know a man's account who is moderator at discord server and behaving as the owner of a vendor. I have proofs that he's spoofing and encourage people for spoofing. What can Helium do against this? If you wish i can send more details.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:53 AM
nothing there is no way to deny at the moment
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Helium can’t do anything about the spoofers
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:53 AM
look at what room you're in lol
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ap
IMO we should have someone from the validator community too. @gtelnet if that’s what you’re trying to say.
Exactly. Maybe even more than one. Basically making sure each group of people in the community are represented, i.e. Hotspot owners, validators, manufacturers, developers, etc (edited)
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How do you define gaming? What conditions should be met? Will someone actually go there with a mapper and check the hotspots, before you propose a ban?
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Pendraloth
How do you define gaming? What conditions should be met? Will someone actually go there with a mapper and check the hotspots, before you propose a ban?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:54 AM
read up a bit please
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Radrob
As long as there are incentives, there will be gaming. You can’t stop it completely without hurting a lot of legitimate hotspots.
Question is what hurts more. Imo the goal should be to prevent gaming as much as possible. The current network mining average is 0,128HNT/24h/miner. The cheaters I see easily reach 1+/24h..
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is it a cheater or a well placed hotspot? thats why a committee is needed.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we have no process dude, understand me please, doesnt matter if we have proven gaming right now, we have nothing we can do with that data, this is why we're proposing the hip
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:55 AM
Then the vote is simply - should a deny list be implemented
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Pendraloth
How do you define gaming? What conditions should be met? Will someone actually go there with a mapper and check the hotspots, before you propose a ban?
spoofers can map their hotspots, it's not that hard to fake GPS coordinates
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bigdaveakers
Then the vote is simply - should a deny list be implemented
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:55 AM
it is!
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So there are no certain criteria to define gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
nothing there is no way to deny at the moment
Long_Live_Trust 12/21/2021 5:55 AM
This hurts us very much. Because they're making fun with us and getting rich evryday by stealing from our common values.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:56 AM
im not saying this hip is in any way ready, we're just saying Does the community want a deny list
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I think having a representative from each hotspot manufacturer would help. Maybe even making it part of their partnership agreement with Helium. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:56 AM
not that everythings defined
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it is!
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 5:56 AM
So the details and discussions are largely irrelevant 😄
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Helium is not an fair project. Why it take so long? Because they can’t do anything. And when this hip is approved it will take months for activation
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How about the secure mapping device people are talking about, for a very long time
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Are there any other DeWi "sub-boards" in place? Any other governance teams that this could follow in structure?
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when will they be released?
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gtelnet
I think having a representative from each hotspot manufacturer would help. Maybe even making it part of their partnership agreement with Helium. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:56 AM
the committee cant be too big, remember its all volunteer
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
im not saying this hip is in any way ready, we're just saying Does the community want a deny list
Agreed. And having the ability to appeal it makes it fair. (edited)
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m-own-NL
Helium is not an fair project. Why it take so long? Because they can’t do anything. And when this hip is approved it will take months for activation
so sell your hotspot and leave, you have no trust in the project
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usurper
Are there any other DeWi "sub-boards" in place? Any other governance teams that this could follow in structure?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:57 AM
semi, the idea is to copy what the MoC does, who are also struggling with this openness idea
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derek
so sell your hotspot and leave, you have no trust in the project
I'll be happy to buy them 😛
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:57 AM
we hope to define everything in a way thats seen as open, whilst at the same time maybe hiding how to hack your hotspot untill its been patched
05:57
kind of thing
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derek
so sell your hotspot and leave, you have no trust in the project
No. Get my ROI but indeed I don’t see why companies are agree with cheating
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Carl-bot BOT 12/21/2021 5:57 AM
Discussion on ROI is not allowed on this server, please see #rules.
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Can hotspots still be hacked? Are gamers hacking their devices right now?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
semi, the idea is to copy what the MoC does, who are also struggling with this openness idea
Struggling with openness? Do you mean the governance process and clarity of rules? What part.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the committee cant be too big, remember its all volunteer
Volunteers don't always show up for meetings so you'd probably be better off having more that you think you need. At least that's how it's been on any board I've sat on.
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I can easily setup a vpn and activate 6 hotspots
05:58
It’s insane
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Pendraloth
Can hotspots still be hacked? Are gamers hacking their devices right now?
Yes they are, using packets forwarding software for example
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usurper
Struggling with openness? Do you mean the governance process and clarity of rules? What part.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:58 AM
just generally being seen as an open and approachable board, in the way they run the MOC town hall now, videos are produced etc
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Can a wrongly asserted location be considered gaming? Because lots of people do it ... (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:58 AM
they're very aware they need to be open, and we want to follow suit
05:58
but again, they couldnt exactly show the proof of the cotx hack that caused them to be suspended (edited)
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bigdaveakers
Then the vote is simply - should a deny list be implemented
Good point. We can vote for a deny list implementation. Then discuss the rules for getting on and off the list later
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zzeddd
Good point. We can vote for a deny list implementation. Then discuss the rules for getting on and off the list later
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 5:59 AM
yep 🙂
05:59
we can all write the documents together
05:59
charter, rules, procedures, appeals process, this is JUST do we want this blunt tool?
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I live in the Netherlands. I see hotspots in the neighborhood with a France IP. Why don’t block them. (edited)
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As that discussion will take some time 😊. But its good to agree upon a set of rules and governing structure
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Make them burn tokens to get off the deny list which benefits us all. Then ban them again
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just curious, do Helium hires white hats ?
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m-own-NL
I live in the Netherlands. I see hotspots in the neighborhood with a France IP. Why don’t block them. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:00 AM
this room is about #hip-40-validator-denylist not gaming, its busy enough in here, can we keep it on topic please?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
charter, rules, procedures, appeals process, this is JUST do we want this blunt tool?
YES 😊
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
this room is about #hip-40-validator-denylist not gaming, its busy enough in here, can we keep it on topic please?
Where is the hip against the gaming?
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m-own-NL
Where is the hip against the gaming?
See channel topic.
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Then i talk there
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m-own-NL
Where is the hip against the gaming?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:02 AM
were trying to discuss the idea of hip40 right now
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But can’t find it….
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:02 AM
not other ways to block them based on what you've seen
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m-own-NL
But can’t find it….
Long_Live_Trust 12/21/2021 6:02 AM
I think there is not created yet
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Pheizx
just curious, do Helium hires white hats ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:02 AM
they have data analysts now
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there is no ' hip against gaming' . there is only a few proposals that are practical and have the goal to prevent gaming. (edited)
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derek
there is no ' hip against gaming' . there is only a few proposals that are practical and have the goal to prevent gaming. (edited)
Maybe an good idea too start that?
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With chip shortages, would you just be banning the wallet or ip or like mac address of device? Would the user be able to resell their hotspots to help the network or couldnt they just set up a new wallet and transfer the devices?
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Towelie
With chip shortages, would you just be banning the wallet or ip or like mac address of device? Would the user be able to resell their hotspots to help the network or couldnt they just set up a new wallet and transfer the devices?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:04 AM
it would be the hotspots address that is denied (edited)
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no, because its not practical to implement. "HIP 100: this hip is against gaming..." ok then what. what are you going to DO about it. this hip-40 is a practical solution to that problem.
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So this HIP is just for the generation of the committee, and the functionality within validators to deny p2p addresses based on a published list. The definition of "gaming", "gaming patterns", review process, prove process, vote process, and process for getting off the game-list is TBD by the committee later. Is that right?
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So they couldnt resell it as that hotspot would be perma banned
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usurper
So this HIP is just for the generation of the committee, and the functionality within validators to deny p2p addresses based on a published list. The definition of "gaming", "gaming patterns", review process, prove process, vote process, and process for getting off the game-list is TBD by the committee later. Is that right?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:05 AM
yep!
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derek
no, because its not practical to implement. "HIP 100: this hip is against gaming..." ok then what. what are you going to DO about it. this hip-40 is a practical solution to that problem.
Maybe an simple idea? Let people only use an IP address belongs to their country where that they live?
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usurper
So this HIP is just for the generation of the committee, and the functionality within validators to deny p2p addresses based on a published list. The definition of "gaming", "gaming patterns", review process, prove process, vote process, and process for getting off the game-list is TBD by the committee later. Is that right?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:05 AM
temp vote to make sure the effort is worth the squeeze
06:05
then we define it
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 12/21/2021 6:05 AM
@m-own-NL hey buddy, if you want to report gaming/spoofing, please do so in #poc-discussion
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:05 AM
submit it for a FULL heliumvote.com vote
06:05
once we have defined everything
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Sounds good
06:06
So there will be a new HIP before release, right?
06:06
with all the details
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m-own-NL
Maybe an simple idea? Let people only use an IP address belongs to their country where that they live?
you can make a hip for that. how would you prevent gamers from using a vpn to the netherlands and occupy the hexes? if it was that simple, it would be HIPPED. (edited)
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Pendraloth
with all the details
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:06 AM
thats the idea, docs for all the processes and criteria etc
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06:08
I think we'd probably end up forming the committee to do this too, with temp members before the first voting stuff, just to have some focus, and maybe even a dedicated room to talk through what we're doing and the new documents etc
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derek
you can make a hip for that. how would you prevent gamers from using a vpn to the netherlands and occupy the hexes? if it was that simple, it would be HIPPED. (edited)
They need to connect weekly with gps on the app with the miner.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yep!
Why the specifics on the validator lists, "additional lists can be added" and "validators don't need to use the list" in the HIP? Why are these specifics in there? Seems early to try and decide the implementation plan when there's so much to decide. For instance, what ensures that if a hotspot is removed from the list (due to fault not of their own, for example), that the removal is verifiably removed from all lists?
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m-own-NL
They need to connect weekly with gps on the app with the miner.
again, gps can be spoofed easily.
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usurper
Why the specifics on the validator lists, "additional lists can be added" and "validators don't need to use the list" in the HIP? Why are these specifics in there? Seems early to try and decide the implementation plan when there's so much to decide. For instance, what ensures that if a hotspot is removed from the list (due to fault not of their own, for example), that the removal is verifiably removed from all lists?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:08 AM
we would only control the dewi list, the community lists would be up to them to update
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats the idea, docs for all the processes and criteria etc
Docs but not HIPs right? Seems like if we vote yes and elect a committee they should define things themselves and not rely on a HIP
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but the discussion should be in poc-discussion or in its own hip. this channel is for the deny list
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Radrob
Docs but not HIPs right? Seems like if we vote yes and elect a committee they should define things themselves and not rely on a HIP
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:09 AM
yeah docs linked in the hip
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Also why "all validators" and not (2n+1) like on block formation?
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usurper
Also why "all validators" and not (2n+1) like on block formation?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:09 AM
it has to be all validators agreeing apparently
06:10
all consensus members have to agree
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it has to be all validators agreeing apparently
But that list is different every CG.... so it would be random on when that deny would be implemented based on the selection of the 43 in group.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it has to be all validators agreeing apparently
All Validators in Consensus which means you could have some epochs where gamers get rewarded
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usurper
But that list is different every CG.... so it would be random on when that deny would be implemented based on the selection of the 43 in group.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:10 AM
yep
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Same thing to get off the list.
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Are the secure mapping devices still under development? I think there was a HIP for that, for a very long time. Is there any progress on it?
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Radrob
All Validators in Consensus which means you could have some epochs where gamers get rewarded
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:10 AM
indeed
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06:10
but again 42 members, nearlly 3k validators
06:10
that would be rare right?
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has it been discussed to keep the list on chain?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:11 AM
some yeah
06:12
questions around how the list is stored/polled
06:12
and how best to do it
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It'd probably have to follow the structure of blessed snaps, unfortunately. Some sort of centralized bucket that's polled from the validator based on version releases or some other cadence.
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usurper
It'd probably have to follow the structure of blessed snaps, unfortunately. Some sort of centralized bucket that's polled from the validator based on version releases or some other cadence.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:13 AM
yep
06:13
thats why the committee
06:13
someone has to press commit
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Well, Helium would press commit, ultimately.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:13 AM
but from memory the list would be polled daily for updates
06:13
or twice daily
06:13
no the dewi commitee would commit
06:14
its not aimed to be baked in with versions like blessed snaps
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That's different than what I was saying. That would be new functionality for the miner process to poll a pre-defined storage location for a list.
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usurper
That's different than what I was saying. That would be new functionality for the miner process to poll a pre-defined storage location for a list.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:14 AM
yeah
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:15 AM
not the place for suggestions not relating to what this hip proposes , take it to #hip-discussion please (edited)
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ok, moving my post over there
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silverstacker03054 12/21/2021 6:17 AM
Where do we go to vote for this…..
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silverstacker03054
Where do we go to vote for this…..
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 12/21/2021 6:17 AM
Check the first pin, it's not a final vote though
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silverstacker03054
Where do we go to vote for this…..
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:17 AM
its not the final vote in this form, its just a temperature check at this stage so just leave a reaction against this post https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/922800000772235324
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its not the final vote in this form, its just a temperature check at this stage so just leave a reaction against this post https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/922800000772235324
silverstacker03054 12/21/2021 6:19 AM
Just did. Thanks. Looks like a lot of people are for this
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:19 AM
a lot of discord members 😉
06:19
Hotspot Owners 157,901
06:20
and a few 100 votes
06:20
if we're going to do this, we need some big signs of support, its a major thing
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Have any other methods been reviewed here besides this idea of blocking p2p via validator deny list? Like denying wallet operations on owner wallet addresses, for example.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If you vote no/needs more work please provide feedback <3
+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:25 AM
I voted no because I think any kind of denylist or blacklist is a terrible idea. It will destroy confidence in the system to think that your assets could end up "denied" because some group of people somewhere decided to.
👎 2
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HoͥguͣsͫBogus 12/21/2021 6:25 AM
How to vote
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I’m in favor of some sort of list leading to banning however I’m concerned about innocent people getting banned for no reason. I have spent considerable time and effort to make numerous set ups the best they can be and I’m more than double average earnings on a couple and 4x on one. I’ve also spent funds on various antennas and weeks of testing in order to select the best at the time. I’ve seen a couple of examples given here and for the first time heard about some group. However when I go look it’s not obvious to me they are cheating, I don’t have that skill set. I THINK A LIST YES, WHY NOT PUT THEM ON NOTICE OF TWO WEEKS TO PROVE INNOCENT OR THEY’RE BANNED , rather than list ban, you’re guilty prove your innocent??
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people don't know how to vote
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Pendraloth
people don't know how to vote
+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:26 AM
And yet it's thought that "people" can responsibly run a denylist? LOL.
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robbo0
I’m in favor of some sort of list leading to banning however I’m concerned about innocent people getting banned for no reason. I have spent considerable time and effort to make numerous set ups the best they can be and I’m more than double average earnings on a couple and 4x on one. I’ve also spent funds on various antennas and weeks of testing in order to select the best at the time. I’ve seen a couple of examples given here and for the first time heard about some group. However when I go look it’s not obvious to me they are cheating, I don’t have that skill set. I THINK A LIST YES, WHY NOT PUT THEM ON NOTICE OF TWO WEEKS TO PROVE INNOCENT OR THEY’RE BANNED , rather than list ban, you’re guilty prove your innocent??
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:26 AM
That's what we're proposing, a notice period is given after a vote for appeals before it's denied
👍 1
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robbo0
I’m in favor of some sort of list leading to banning however I’m concerned about innocent people getting banned for no reason. I have spent considerable time and effort to make numerous set ups the best they can be and I’m more than double average earnings on a couple and 4x on one. I’ve also spent funds on various antennas and weeks of testing in order to select the best at the time. I’ve seen a couple of examples given here and for the first time heard about some group. However when I go look it’s not obvious to me they are cheating, I don’t have that skill set. I THINK A LIST YES, WHY NOT PUT THEM ON NOTICE OF TWO WEEKS TO PROVE INNOCENT OR THEY’RE BANNED , rather than list ban, you’re guilty prove your innocent??
The chances of 1 or 2 hotspots getting banned are almost nil. I think this is looking at 10-20-30-40 asserted in a region for high rewards when actually those devices are in a warehouse somewhere.
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Pendraloth
😸
HoͥguͣsͫBogus 12/21/2021 6:27 AM
Maybee explain instead of laughing
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usurper
The chances of 1 or 2 hotspots getting banned are almost nil. I think this is looking at 10-20-30-40 asserted in a region for high rewards when actually those devices are in a warehouse somewhere.
+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:28 AM
What if mine or yours is one of those 10-20-30-40?
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HoͥguͣsͫBogus 12/21/2021 6:28 AM
Hip39 i could vote but dont find it here
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+120.83 dBm
What if mine or yours is one of those 10-20-30-40?
In a warehouse somewhere? They should be listed.
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HoͥguͣsͫBogus
Hip39 i could vote but dont find it here
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:29 AM
06:29
It's only a discord temperature check
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HoͥguͣsͫBogus
Hip39 i could vote but dont find it here
Voting closed see #hip-39-hnt-redenomination
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That's what we're proposing, a notice period is given after a vote for appeals before it's denied
I was under the impression that the list would be developed, analyzed and if consensus, ban would occur. You’d only know when you stopped earning. So it wasn’t clear to me the process proposed
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usurper
In a warehouse somewhere? They should be listed.
+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:29 AM
Huh? How would those voting to ban know where a hotspot is located if its location is thought to be falsely asserted?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:29 AM
Full vote will happen likely via heliumvote.com when we've defined it
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HoͥguͣsͫBogus 12/21/2021 6:29 AM
Thank you
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 6:30 AM
post was at 5 am ish
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+120.83 dBm
Huh? How would those voting to ban know where a hotspot is located if its location is thought to be falsely asserted?
Maybe some examples in this HIP would be a good idea, then.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Full vote will happen likely via heliumvote.com when we've defined it
HoͥguͣsͫBogus 12/21/2021 6:30 AM
Thanks man that was the site ive looking for :)
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usurper
Maybe some examples in this HIP would be a good idea, then.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:31 AM
Yeah sounds good to me, Anthony actually did an example of Modesto and the timeframe to action, how hip17 fixed it and how long it took to solve it
06:31
For comparison
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I feel like there is a large majority who will probably vote yes for this solely because they believe they will spontaneously have a boost in earnings once hotspots start to get banned. When in reality they have a hotspot installed in a windowsill, or in the middle of a rural location, that will never earn over .01 HNT a day
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yeah sounds good to me, Anthony actually did an example of Modesto and the timeframe to action, how hip17 fixed it and how long it took to solve it
What happened in Modesto?
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Pendraloth
What happened in Modesto?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:32 AM
Basement full of hotspots before hip17
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+120.83 dBm
Huh? How would those voting to ban know where a hotspot is located if its location is thought to be falsely asserted?
Average Joe 12/21/2021 6:32 AM
They can try to physically sniff it out
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and they were placed in the same location on the map? With no penalties?
06:32
hmm
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yeah sounds good to me, Anthony actually did an example of Modesto and the timeframe to action, how hip17 fixed it and how long it took to solve it
Yeah, would probably help to show some examples with screenshots and details of the investigation. Maybe a little cart-before-the-horse for this HIP, but this HIP is asking for the ability to create governance without defining exactly how it will govern (meaning how will these issues be identified).
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Pendraloth
and they were placed in the same location on the map? With no penalties?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:33 AM
Yeah this was pre hip17, which was put in place to stop it
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How much HNT did they make?
06:33
😄
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Average Joe
They can try to physically sniff it out
+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:33 AM
Yeah right. No voter is going to do that. They want to click a button on their screen and be done.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:33 AM
More than any gamer has in the last year
06:33
In the millions range
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 6:34 AM
And he gets to keep it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:34 AM
and thats the thing
06:34
we could have another modesto
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Submorf
I feel like there is a large majority who will probably vote yes for this solely because they believe they will spontaneously have a boost in earnings once hotspots start to get banned. When in reality they have a hotspot installed in a windowsill, or in the middle of a rural location, that will never earn over .01 HNT a day
I fear this is true also so if it passes and gets implemented, we should prepare for the onslaught of “why aren’t my rewards up if gamers are banned”
🍻 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:34 AM
and it would take months of hips to stop
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Problem with helium is that half of the supply was already mined by a few early adopters. Now everyone is fighting for scraps, even gamers... Maybe I'm wrong but i think in spring a hotspot was making 50+ HNT (edited)
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Radrob
I fear this is true also so if it passes and gets implemented, we should prepare for the onslaught of “why aren’t my rewards up if gamers are banned”
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:35 AM
+1 to this, i feel if hip40 went in, we wouldn't notice the difference
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Now a gamer needs 200 hotspots to make 50 HNT a day, maybe
06:35
and value will go down more and more
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+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:35 AM
This is just mob mentality at work again. Burn the witches!
facepalm 1
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 6:35 AM
Well, there needs to be SOME solution, no?
06:36
Or just pack it in.
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When you think a single hotspot used to mine the same amount of HNT as 200 gaming hotspots mine right now ...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
+1 to this, i feel if hip40 went in, we wouldn't notice the difference
My thoughts as well.
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Average Joe
Well, there needs to be SOME solution, no?
+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:36 AM
PoC. A systemic solution that is applied equally and automatically. (edited)
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Pendraloth
When you think a single hotspot used to mine the same amount of HNT as 200 gaming hotspots mine right now ...
And a gallon of milk was a nickel!
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 6:36 AM
it was!
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usurper
And a gallon of milk was a nickel!
No real life goods increase 10000% in value, like crypto coins do
06:37
😄
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Crypto is REAL LIFE
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its virtual 😄
06:38
Where do you think most gaming hotspots are located?
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+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:38 AM
What's unreal is dollars. The milk's value didn't change.
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China?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:39 AM
EU right now i think
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I thought China banned crypto mining. Why are helium hotspots still being sold and deployed in China?
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Pendraloth
Where do you think most gaming hotspots are located?
+120.83 dBm 12/21/2021 6:39 AM
How would anyone know, other than said gamers? (edited)
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Pendraloth
I thought China banned crypto mining. Why are helium hotspots still being sold and deployed in China?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:39 AM
they're not
06:40
watch the MoC video from the other day
06:40
semtech have been told to stop selling 470? chips to partners (edited)
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I have another question, not related
06:40
If I move my helium hotspot to a different region, will it auto switch frequency?
failed 2
06:40
will it switch from EU868 to RU864?
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Pendraloth
will it switch from EU868 to RU864?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:41 AM
#questions-and-answers
06:41
please
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China to Russia? Sus
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
+1 to this, i feel if hip40 went in, we wouldn't notice the difference
Of course not. Mining Helium is the "get rich quick" scheme of the month in the crypto realm for the standard autist investor. People expect to spend $50 and make $5 million, and if they don't, then someone is cheating them out. I'm also very concerned this is going to turn into a witch hunt against people making good profits because they are actually setting up their rigs properly, in an area that needs coverage. Where are the safeguards for that? This HIP seems to be a strawman with no real answers to some really important questions.
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celldwellr
Of course not. Mining Helium is the "get rich quick" scheme of the month in the crypto realm for the standard autist investor. People expect to spend $50 and make $5 million, and if they don't, then someone is cheating them out. I'm also very concerned this is going to turn into a witch hunt against people making good profits because they are actually setting up their rigs properly, in an area that needs coverage. Where are the safeguards for that? This HIP seems to be a strawman with no real answers to some really important questions.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:56 AM
its not designed for all gaming
06:56
or as a method for you to say bob down the roads cheating
06:56
just target the biggest gaming on the network
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right, but when you read the HIP, it's not defined to fit only that scope
06:57
i understand that's the target, but there's nothing in place to stop it from overreaching
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:57 AM
a perfect example is the communities feelings towards the Pisces clusters popping up
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celldwellr
right, but when you read the HIP, it's not defined to fit only that scope
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:57 AM
not yet
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it's "undefined"
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:57 AM
we're not at that stage yet
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I use to use auto aim in halo 2 would this cause my hotspot to get banned? 😋
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 6:57 AM
this is a temperature vote, to gauge if the community wants a tool like this
06:57
of which we would then go define
06:58
before a full vote via heliumvote.com
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i want spoofers to be banned just as much as the next guy, but I think that people are throwing votes at everything purely based on "wen no spoofers" instead of actually thinking about the consequences of some of these HIPs
07:00
I respect the process, but I'm pretty skeptical of the outcome, that's all! Will vote as we should!
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 12/21/2021 7:02 AM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io quick question and I apologize if you covered this already. I read the readme but didn't see mention of development burden. This seems to be one of the important go/no go factors that impact HiPs.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io quick question and I apologize if you covered this already. I read the readme but didn't see mention of development burden. This seems to be one of the important go/no go factors that impact HiPs.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:02 AM
helium confirmed the codes pretty easy and they'd write it
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07:04
easy as in easy to understand, its still more workload on their plate
07:04
lol
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 12/21/2021 7:05 AM
I manage a team of developers. I've learned that "easy" has a different meaning than most people. 🤪
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:05 AM
yep was being careful there
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
helium confirmed the codes pretty easy and they'd write it
This is great
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Jeff Alberda 12/21/2021 7:07 AM
I'd like to know if there is a serious and valid opposition to this. Question I have, could the deny list becomes gameable in some way? Have the negative implications to the network been looked at along with the positive? Its obvious the gamed hotspots need to be dealt with.
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Jeff Alberda
I'd like to know if there is a serious and valid opposition to this. Question I have, could the deny list becomes gameable in some way? Have the negative implications to the network been looked at along with the positive? Its obvious the gamed hotspots need to be dealt with.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:08 AM
theres a panel that vote on all considerations to gaming, i doubt theres many attack vectors there, never say never tho
07:08
what would the attack vector be there
07:09
you could fake data to a hotspot to kill competition ?
07:09
get them added
07:09
but then the owner could appeal
07:09
its not for all gaming anyway, only the biggest issues
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Radrob
I fear this is true also so if it passes and gets implemented, we should prepare for the onslaught of “why aren’t my rewards up if gamers are banned”
Luckily we get a redenomination as solution for that 😂. Still a couple new complainers are no reason to not ban or try banning gamers/cheaters. I don't really understand most of people's fears or objections
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:09 AM
If gaming, spoofing or software hacking is not addressed and ultimately solved, it might be the demise of the entire project.
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07:10
The network has been so badly exploited, it will make taking part useless eventually.
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Average Joe
If gaming, spoofing or software hacking is not addressed and ultimately solved, it might be the demise of the entire project.
This. It's definitely not good for the reliability of the project and network
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Any move towards battling gaming etc. is a good move IMO. I just hope that the hotspot(s) that are accused are at least notified so that they can participate in appealing etc.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:11 AM
we could possibly use payment memos with a DENYLIST memo
07:12
having something in app is a big change other than that, not something we're looking to do to add more complexity to the coding
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
what would the attack vector be there
Jeff Alberda 12/21/2021 7:12 AM
I was more referring to gaming the system for negating a deny, like propagating lists without your large gamed hotspot list included, becoming a validator and not using a list, or an empty list etc - ignoring all the logistical issues with doing these.
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Jeff Alberda
I was more referring to gaming the system for negating a deny, like propagating lists without your large gamed hotspot list included, becoming a validator and not using a list, or an empty list etc - ignoring all the logistical issues with doing these.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:13 AM
the majority would have to use their list over the dewi list, one odd validator staking 10k for at least 5 months is not going to make much difference
07:13
and a very expensive way to hack
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the majority would have to use their list over the dewi list, one odd validator staking 10k for at least 5 months is not going to make much difference
Jeff Alberda 12/21/2021 7:13 AM
yep I figured on that, just an example
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:13 AM
The way things are going, it is not just a location spoof going on. There are much deeper issues. These gaming hotspots can earn 10hnt a day without having a decent list of beacons/witnesses. The system has been hacked and exploited to THAT degree. This must be addressed, or there will be a mass exodus.
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Average Joe
The way things are going, it is not just a location spoof going on. There are much deeper issues. These gaming hotspots can earn 10hnt a day without having a decent list of beacons/witnesses. The system has been hacked and exploited to THAT degree. This must be addressed, or there will be a mass exodus.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:14 AM
please show me a hotspot earning 10 a day
07:14
no1 earned 2.84 hnt
07:15
gaming is not as big as you think it is
07:15
and nowhere near as bad as it has been in the past
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:16 AM
I saw a handful of examples that were set up to work with one another, some bad offenders are a bit older (which explains the rewards), but gaming is still a big issue as covered elsewhere.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:16 AM
when we proposed this list we did some floors to sample gaming
👍 1
07:16
at the time there were 40 ish hotspots earning what most hotspots averaged in 2 weeks
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:16 AM
I cannot say how bad it is exactly today however.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:16 AM
today
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
gaming is not as big as you think it is
Well depends on the number of gaming miners out there right? Good to hear there is no absurd amount for 1 miner. Yet 1+ HNT/24h can still be significant if there are large quantities
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:16 AM
that floor is empty
07:17
a lot of gaming has been stopped with quiet patches just so folks realise
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:18 AM
Thats good to hear
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:18 AM
and i mean patches like
07:18
manufacturer's closing security holes (edited)
07:18
not helium putting in new methods to stop it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
manufacturer's closing security holes (edited)
there's not much that can be done by a mfr with a non-encrypted SPI
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zzeddd
Well depends on the number of gaming miners out there right? Good to hear there is no absurd amount for 1 miner. Yet 1+ HNT/24h can still be significant if there are large quantities
Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:19 AM
1HNT is pretty common for some good hotspots that are legit
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bduffez
there's not much that can be done by a mfr with a non-encrypted SPI
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:19 AM
yeah
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bduffez
there's not much that can be done by a mfr with a non-encrypted SPI
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:19 AM
you're a fan of hip-22?
07:19
I am on principal, i think this is a decent stop gap till we're there & have secure mappers at least
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Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:19 AM
which manufacturers fall under that?
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Average Joe
which manufacturers fall under that?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:20 AM
under what?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you're a fan of hip-22?
what about the 400k live hotspots and the how many millions produced and waiting to be onboarded that don't have a secure radio stack?
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bduffez
there's not much that can be done by a mfr with a non-encrypted SPI
Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:20 AM
this
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bduffez
what about the 400k live hotspots and the how many millions produced and waiting to be onboarded that don't have a secure radio stack?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:20 AM
22 can support and bless non hip22
07:20
if they physically hear them
07:21
hip22 would mean we could have non hip22 diy, if they're in range of a hip22 card (edited)
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zzeddd
Well depends on the number of gaming miners out there right? Good to hear there is no absurd amount for 1 miner. Yet 1+ HNT/24h can still be significant if there are large quantities
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 7:21 AM
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bigdaveakers
That’s quite a small number
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:22 AM
yep
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(I'm afraid that this hip will fall into the oblivion of "my neighbor makes a lot he MUST be a cheater" instead of finding a way to slow down actual cheaters)
👎 1
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Average Joe
1HNT is pretty common for some good hotspots that are legit
For sure. I don't mean it as single indicator, more that the impact of gaming can be significant
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zzeddd
For sure. I don't mean it as single indicator, more that the impact of gaming can be significant
So we could ask a mapper to verify the location of the suspecting cheater
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bigdaveakers
Ah thanks! Pretty small number indeed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:23 AM
yeah sure, i agree its not for my neighbour is a cheater research him, more heres a big cluster thats looking like its based in china, asserted in the UK, lets research them and find out, before taking action @bduffez (edited)
💯 4
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bigdaveakers
Average Joe 12/21/2021 7:23 AM
I cannot view this
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yeah sure, i agree its not for my neighbour is a cheater research him, more heres a big cluster thats looking like its based in china, asserted in the UK, lets research them and find out, before taking action @bduffez (edited)
yeah 100% agreed. but this has been a topic for at least a year now, if not since the inception of the PoC; if there was an elegant solution to this, it would've been implemented already...
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bduffez
yeah 100% agreed. but this has been a topic for at least a year now, if not since the inception of the PoC; if there was an elegant solution to this, it would've been implemented already...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:24 AM
hopefully with this push it can be 🤞
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zzeddd
Ah thanks! Pretty small number indeed
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 7:24 AM
Just for an idea, on 1st November 5927 earned more than 1HNT
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bduffez
yeah 100% agreed. but this has been a topic for at least a year now, if not since the inception of the PoC; if there was an elegant solution to this, it would've been implemented already...
07:26
i want to be a network auditor , roaming the country
07:26
checking coverage
07:26
lol
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bigdaveakers
Just for an idea, on 1st November 5927 earned more than 1HNT
Good to know. I noticed a big drop in rewards since then as well, with honest setups. But that's nothing to address here. We'll focus on the gaming hotspots out there (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
still love that
me too, but it doesn't work if the intent is to white list people (eg presuming everybody guilty until proven not), or if the owner of an auditer hardware is a gamer themself
👍 1
07:27
we could already use the mapper tools and cross reference it with PoC data to prove guilt (eg presumed innocent until we prove that you don't participate to PoC with all your neighbors and you don't route paid traffic)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 7:27 AM
such a complex issue to work out, i feel we may be doomed for the same here a bit, staying in purgatory because its not defined enough for everyone
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too complex IMO, as I said earlier, if there was an elegant and secure solution, it would've been implemented already
07:29
also it will be hard to reach a consensus with 400k hotspots and so many users in the community
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We can always work out a proposal and put it into vote
07:30
The redenomination got several 1000 votes. That can be enough. I don't know why we should give up and allow unlimited cheating if it's complicated
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true
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bduffez
also it will be hard to reach a consensus with 400k hotspots and so many users in the community
g-f-o-r-c-e 12/21/2021 7:31 AM
Do we have proxy voting? That generally solves the "we have too many participants" problem.
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I wasn't referring to the voting mechanism, but rather the ideas generations and the decision to put one of them into voting
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bduffez
I wasn't referring to the voting mechanism, but rather the ideas generations and the decision to put one of them into voting
g-f-o-r-c-e 12/21/2021 7:32 AM
ahh, got it!
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maybe we can vote on which idea/defense mechanism we should put to vote, and then vote Troll
😆 1
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wolfenhawke 12/21/2021 7:44 AM
will need a quick software check like on explorer to determine if you hotspot is under denial, and then a location to post to the committee with some information to re-enable. Reason is so much down time that is unexplained or people don't understand, that many of the ones down may trigger people to send support tickets just to check. Need a way to reduce these tickets.
👍 1
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Why not just have the active deny list made public and then you could verify that your hotspots are or are not on the list, then take action?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:07 AM
the list would be published, same with any action taken, so you can check it
👍 1
08:07
notification of action
08:08
i assume on both a website and probably an announcement in channel on this server
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From 1hnt a day normaal to 0,20 Drama
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Could we wire up the Helium app to provide a notice that a hotspot the app is aware of is on the denyList? Maybe with a link to how to appeal? (edited)
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bkhall
Could we wire up the Helium app to provide a notice that a hotspot the app is aware of is on the denyList? Maybe with a link to how to appeal? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:14 AM
Id have to speak to helium, but from my understanding this would cause some complexity to a fairly simple implementation
08:14
they wouldn't just stop working tho, activity would happen as normal
08:14
but it would be marked invalid with a reason of deny list
08:15
so easy to spot if you missed it
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I see - I don't always look at the activity list - just need a way to somehow inform the owner. I appreciate the KISS concept for now though. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:17 AM
these hips never pass if they're complex
08:17
they always start out with big aims and big ideas, but then are broken down into their simplest form and then get passed
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Sure - with version mods as they mature - eg. PoC v11
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:21 AM
well it certainly can be the case here
08:21
i hope to have a MVP of such that we can work on and evolve for looking at gaming on the network and dealing with it
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Alright - how are inputs (suspects) made - via suspots.com, or the like? (edited)
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bkhall
Alright - how are inputs (suspects) made - via suspots.com, or the like? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:23 AM
i left it vauge so we can discuss but as previously mentioned here, the aims not ALL gaming
08:23
but the biggest
08:23
the idea being the community cant just say this 1 hotspot down the road is off 300m and is gaming (edited)
08:23
but
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yeah, no I get that - need to go after the obvious ones first.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:24 AM
as in recent days with the Piscies clusters popping up, witnesses from EU to china being invalid, ip issues, a multitude of factors that those type of possible hacks are looked at and dealt with
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yep - ok, so the straw poll looks favorable so far. How do we keep this moving along?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:25 AM
I'm keen to not call anything gaming at this stage, just that they warrant investigation
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bkhall
yep - ok, so the straw poll looks favorable so far. How do we keep this moving along?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:25 AM
need to give it a few days first, if the feedbacks positive the next stage would be to start writing the docs to support it
08:26
the critera of how hotspots are selected, the voting criteria, the panel size, the appeals process, ban lengths, how unbans are dealt with
08:26
all that fun stuff
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Looking forward to reviewing them...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
as in recent days with the Piscies clusters popping up, witnesses from EU to china being invalid, ip issues, a multitude of factors that those type of possible hacks are looked at and dealt with
what's with these anyways? there are many clusters of them in western europe
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bduffez
what's with these anyways? there are many clusters of them in western europe
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:27 AM
pocv11 forced the region
08:27
so they moved from china to eu
08:27
thats my best guess
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interesting
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:27 AM
but im keen not to call anything gaming without evidence to back it all up
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same. but it looks suspicious, they're installed in the middle of nowhere with chinese IP, and legit hotspots don't witness them
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:28 AM
look at the ip's, theres a big cluster near devon in the UK, all on chinese Ip's and invalid witnesses from beacons in china
08:28
the rssi values are sus too
08:29
the uk ones not bad, but in other countries where its happened, its dragged a lot of legit hotspots transmit scales down
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but im keen not to call anything gaming without evidence to back it all up
How about 24 hotspots split among 3 sites in the middle of nowhere, in one wallet with no other witness except those in the wallet - right here in the US?
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bkhall
How about 24 hotspots split among 3 sites in the middle of nowhere, in one wallet with no other witness except those in the wallet - right here in the US?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:29 AM
there you go that sort of thing needs to be investigated
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the uk ones not bad, but in other countries where its happened, its dragged a lot of legit hotspots transmit scales down
yeah that's bad times two...
08:30
at least clusters in the middle of nowhere are "just" stealing HNT, not bringing down the rewards/tx scale of the legit hotspots
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bduffez
at least clusters in the middle of nowhere are "just" stealing HNT, not bringing down the rewards/tx scale of the legit hotspots
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:30 AM
yeah i cant work out why they'd go near other hotspots
08:30
i keep thinking is it legit?
08:30
its hard to say
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I'd say easier to hide, a human wouldn't be able to tell that the witnesses are all from the same cluster (even with different wallets)
👍 1
08:31
a good script could be able to tell which hotspots see each other in an isolated way, like with radio legit hotspots randomly see each other in the vicinity, but for some reason in the same location a group of other hotspots only see each other and never see the rest??? looks sus
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:32 AM
yeah, it would be very interesting to run some data analysis on some areas, and spot the patterns
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idk, if people don't see their earnings dip, they're happy. (edited)
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yeah well people see their earnings dip, and they complain on a daily basis 😆
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maco2035 🐮 12/21/2021 8:33 AM
Not bad, I think it should be there.
08:33
For at least the most outrageous ones there
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bduffez
I'd say easier to hide, a human wouldn't be able to tell that the witnesses are all from the same cluster (even with different wallets)
Except they did it overnight and every hotspot owner around started looking at it 🤣
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:36 AM
or they onboarded nearly 5k in a day
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Radrob
Except they did it overnight and every hotspot owner around started looking at it 🤣
I meant in the middle of a city with a link to a hotspot, it would be close to impossible for a human with explorer only to tell whether this group of hotspots only see each other and not their neighbors. at least it doesn't scale
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So what happens if a unit is banned and sold to another person. What happens to the buyer and how are they protected from buy banned units ?
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GC
So what happens if a unit is banned and sold to another person. What happens to the buyer and how are they protected from buy banned units ?
I think the denyList would be public - one could check it before purchase.
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bkhall
I think the denyList would be public - one could check it before purchase.
I feel that the majority of people in Helium do not look at discord nor do they have knowledge of any of this. They would all get screwed with banned units. (edited)
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"Validators will use the committee list by default which is set in the config file of the validator. Validators can add other lists here or opt out by removing the default list url." => This seems to suggest validators can ignore blocked hotspots. What is a validator node colludes with a serious hotspot cheater?
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GC
I feel that the majority of people in Helium do not look at discord nor do they have knowledge of any of this. They would all get screwed with banned units. (edited)
Brainstormer 12/21/2021 8:43 AM
no different than a bad seller selling a broken miner.
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"Validators do not have to use the same denylist file, or any denylist at all. Only if all consensus group members both have a denylist and have matching records for a Hotspot on the denylist would any action be taken." same as above
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Brainstormer
no different than a bad seller selling a broken miner.
Broken units can be fixed for cheap.
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Brainstormer 12/21/2021 8:43 AM
that's an issue between buyer and seller and the selling platform. (edited)
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GC
I feel that the majority of people in Helium do not look at discord nor do they have knowledge of any of this. They would all get screwed with banned units. (edited)
crazyhonybadger 12/21/2021 8:44 AM
Isn't that just a risk of buying anything used? If I buy an xbox that's been hardware banned that's not Microsofts problem. Don't buy from someone you don't trust.
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Open Questions => I would like to add: 1) How to tackle serious offenders? Should accounts be banned as well when multiple hotspots are banned? (ie 3 strikes rule and you are out). Of course new accounts can be created but it's all about making it more painful
08:46
2) What about hotspots also using "deny lists of Hotspot addresses" so they don't even talk to banned hotspots?
08:46
3) What is the process for community driven reporting of suspicious hotspots?
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cdturri
"Validators will use the committee list by default which is set in the config file of the validator. Validators can add other lists here or opt out by removing the default list url." => This seems to suggest validators can ignore blocked hotspots. What is a validator node colludes with a serious hotspot cheater?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:48 AM
To collude you'd need to stake 10k and even then your chances of being in concensus are rare, they'd have to put some serious locked hnt funds to make much difference (edited)
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cdturri
Open Questions => I would like to add: 1) How to tackle serious offenders? Should accounts be banned as well when multiple hotspots are banned? (ie 3 strikes rule and you are out). Of course new accounts can be created but it's all about making it more painful
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:48 AM
This hip will only target hotspots, not wallets , you wouldn't want centralised control of funds
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cdturri
2) What about hotspots also using "deny lists of Hotspot addresses" so they don't even talk to banned hotspots?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:49 AM
Hotspots don't use deny lists, only validators
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cdturri
3) What is the process for community driven reporting of suspicious hotspots?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:49 AM
It's not aimed to be community driven reported , this is not for all gaming only the worst offenders
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crazyhonybadger 12/21/2021 8:53 AM
Just out of curiosity, how long would it take a hotspot to be flagged as suspicious to being on the denylist? Or is that part of the process still being discussed?
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"Success here means that a Hotspot address contained on a majority of validators' denylist has their transactions rejected as invalid." => has/have
08:54
shouldn't it be "Hotspot addresses contained on a majority of validators' denylist have"
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We’re approaching 3 months on this one. Let’s get it rolling! Glad to see the temperature check going the right way. But we need the formal vote. (edited)
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SecretRecipe 12/21/2021 8:54 AM
So if validators dont have to even use a denylist, is it even worth the trouble?
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SecretRecipe
So if validators dont have to even use a denylist, is it even worth the trouble?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:55 AM
its opt out, as standard most will use it
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SecretRecipe
So if validators dont have to even use a denylist, is it even worth the trouble?
Exactly what I asked
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SecretRecipe
So if validators dont have to even use a denylist, is it even worth the trouble?
Depends on if the gamers/hackers are also validators I guess.
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what is the incentive for validators to use the deny list?
08:56
aside from being the default
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cdturri
what is the incentive for validators to use the deny list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 8:56 AM
security of the network ? theres no gain for them from doing it
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GC
I feel that the majority of people in Helium do not look at discord nor do they have knowledge of any of this. They would all get screwed with banned units. (edited)
There is also a way to remove it from the denyList... The new owner would just follow the steps to do so.
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Wouldn't it be better to display it on Explorer and the App?
👍 1
08:59
That's where most people will check
08:59
I guess that will make this HIP harder to implement as more dev work...
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cdturri
Wouldn't it be better to display it on Explorer and the App?
Asked the same, but agree, might not start there.
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cdturri
Wouldn't it be better to display it on Explorer and the App?
That doesn’t have to be rolled into this HIP. Leave the nice-to-have updates for future HIP (edited)
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bkhall
There is also a way to remove it from the denyList... The new owner would just follow the steps to do so.
As long as legitimate people can remove from the deny list, that’s awesome
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
That is a super majority if I have ever seen one.
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brybo86
That is a super majority if I have ever seen one.
yeah, @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io is against so he's obviously the owner of 5k cheating hotspots and wants to keep doing so Troll
🤣 4
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bduffez
yeah, @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io is against so he's obviously the owner of 5k cheating hotspots and wants to keep doing so Troll
Is he though?
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SecretRecipe 12/21/2021 9:13 AM
So theoretically there could be a form of strategic abuse to deny the top earners.. theoretically
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SecretRecipe
So theoretically there could be a form of strategic abuse to deny the top earners.. theoretically
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:14 AM
not without information, and lots of it saying they were
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
A vote to see if we should vote! Let’s gooooo 😅
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we should be able to vote to be able to pick which next HIP will receive a temperature check vote, in order to vote for its solution?
😅 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats a technical limitation in the way consensus works, all must agree
Is it all or just 2/3rds + 1?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:20 AM
all i believe
09:20
from what i understood because of the way concensus works any could be processing it, so theyd all have to agree
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
from what i understood because of the way concensus works any could be processing it, so theyd all have to agree
My understanding of CG is that 2/3+1 agreement is the required amount for everything a CG does, block production, assign penalties to other CG members, etc. The idea is a single holdout cannot prevent the CG from doing its work (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:22 AM
you probably know more than me then 🙂
09:22
I would need helium to confirm what exactly it is
09:22
probably what you're proposing tho
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
technically, validators could do this right now without the list by denying ip's
IP denial is not a good way to block a hotspot. IPs change all the time.
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CryptoIcE
IP denial is not a good way to block a hotspot. IPs change all the time.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:25 AM
sure
09:25
i was just saying they COULd not that they should 😉
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What would be the process for bringing something forward for the committee to deal with? Does the committee have to deal with all complaints or can they refuse to take something on?
09:26
I'm just thinking of all the times someone on here is like, "it says there's a hotspot here but I drove to that location and the antenna is actually 50 m away! SPOOOOOOOF rabble rabble" (edited)
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I vote a big 👍 on this.
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dogcow
What would be the process for bringing something forward for the committee to deal with? Does the committee have to deal with all complaints or can they refuse to take something on?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:29 AM
its not being designed for the community to select hotspots, its for the committee to research gaming, and deal with the worst hacks
☝️ 2
09:30
they would select, not for example you saying the hotspot down the road is off by 300m and his earnings are better type gaming situation
09:30
but where theres many signs of suspected gaming activity that selects them for review by such a committee
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its not being designed for the community to select hotspots, its for the committee to research gaming, and deal with the worst hacks
I support the idea because there are cases that are really obvious gaming taking HNT from our pockets and not providing real coverage.
09:32
Like a wallet with 30 hotspots just witnessing itself with other hotspots around
👍 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its not being designed for the community to select hotspots, its for the committee to research gaming, and deal with the worst hacks
thx, that makes sense.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i want to be a network auditor , roaming the country
Sign me up
👍 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its not being designed for the community to select hotspots, its for the committee to research gaming, and deal with the worst hacks
Who will make up part of the committee ? Are they predetermined or is there some sort of vote/election ? (edited)
09:48
Also what does the denylist do ?
facepalm 1
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Broly
Who will make up part of the committee ? Are they predetermined or is there some sort of vote/election ? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:49 AM
Most of the committee would be selected for their backgrounds, but a portion would be voted on from the community to make sure the whole process is seen as open, think MoC (edited)
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Broly
Also what does the denylist do ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:50 AM
If all validators in concensus at the time got a poc receipt from a deny list hotspot, and they all agreed, it would be marked as invalid with the reason deny list
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Seems like overwhelming support in the straw poll. Kind of surprised!
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Devils Advocate: A deny list seems like a centralized way of thinking. I am creating a law so a small group of people get to decide on what to do to a wallet/hotspot that is doing something I don't like. POC gaming seems temporary to me since the whole point of this network is to transfer IOT device data and get paid for it. No data transfer, no money. Current level of POC rewards supports gaming. We need data transfer not ban committess. Bitcoin and Ethereum would have failed a long time ago with a ban list of hashers because of people trying double spend their coins.
👎 1
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krby
Seems like overwhelming support in the straw poll. Kind of surprised!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:51 AM
Yeah hopefully we get some more awareness, it's a huge thing for the network to wield a power like this, I hope we get a good turnout
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JRex
Devils Advocate: A deny list seems like a centralized way of thinking. I am creating a law so a small group of people get to decide on what to do to a wallet/hotspot that is doing something I don't like. POC gaming seems temporary to me since the whole point of this network is to transfer IOT device data and get paid for it. No data transfer, no money. Current level of POC rewards supports gaming. We need data transfer not ban committess. Bitcoin and Ethereum would have failed a long time ago with a ban list of hashers because of people trying double spend their coins.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:52 AM
I agree data solves a lot of this but, leave it as is untill data is there is the only other option
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yeah hopefully we get some more awareness, it's a huge thing for the network to wield a power like this, I hope we get a good turnout
I just posted in the helium reddit page on this topic, may hopefully draw some more members to the voting. https://www.reddit.com/r/HeliumNetwork/comments/rljtyt/vote_yes_on_hip_40_to_start_tackling_the_spoofers/
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If all validators in concensus at the time got a poc receipt from a deny list hotspot, and they all agreed, it would be marked as invalid with the reason deny list
validators would be the committee ? Also right they would be put in the denylist, but what will it do to that hotspot? Limit rewards, suspend them, or invalidate all activities.
👎 1
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Broly
validators would be the committee ? Also right they would be put in the denylist, but what will it do to that hotspot? Limit rewards, suspend them, or invalidate all activities.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:54 AM
no there would be an elected committee who decides on action and vote to add to the list. The deny would invalidate all witnesses/beacons, all poc activity (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
no there would be an elected committee who decides on action and vote to add to the list. The deny would invalidate all witnesses/beacons, all poc activity (edited)
ty
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Leave it the way it is and spend the effort figuring out how to build a trustless legitimate coverage map.
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JRex
Leave it the way it is and spend the effort figuring out how to build a trustless legitimate coverage map.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:55 AM
yep thats a very valid point
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JRex
Leave it the way it is and spend the effort figuring out how to build a trustless legitimate coverage map.
They tried didn't they ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:55 AM
#hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit and #hip-44-witness-reward-decay do a much better job of the major gaming clusters earnings wise
09:55
but theres also a lot of fallout from well placed hotspots with them
👍 2
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When I added my first device to the network only to find that my hotspot was only transferring my data 10% of the time. The hotspot down the road was getting 90% of my data transfer. What I noticed is he has a better setup for data transfer. Faster internet less latency.
09:56
We earn about the same in POC rewards
09:58
So really my setup stunk because I couldn't transfer data, and I thought I had a good setup.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 9:59 AM
I think an interesting step to this could be to gauge the size of gaming on the network, maybe a precursor to this hip, fund a group to study the issue and issue best guesses on how much its effecting the network to see if it's justifyable
💯 3
10:00
or maybe if this hips enacted that can be one of the goals of the committee, to outline it better for everyone to see
💯 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I think an interesting step to this could be to gauge the size of gaming on the network, maybe a precursor to this hip, fund a group to study the issue and issue best guesses on how much its effecting the network to see if it's justifyable
hence the script to see if there are "layers" of hotspots that are supposedly on the same location, but only see each other instead of the rest of the neighbors (like if they would operate on a different layer, unreachable to the rest of the miners)
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Wow, just read the hip for the first time and I love it. I am still trying to understand a lot of the content but couple quick questions: does the creation of the auditor mean a new earning stream is created just for auditors? I read the Auditor box is a rak with silicone inner shell, etc but are these audit boxes strategically placed around the world? Love the hip, as the issue is real and appreciate the work on it. Sorry if my questions aren’t asked here (edited)
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bduffez
hence the script to see if there are "layers" of hotspots that are supposedly on the same location, but only see each other instead of the rest of the neighbors (like if they would operate on a different layer, unreachable to the rest of the miners)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 10:04 AM
a grants been funded for ML
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10:04
Project: Adaptive Network Modeling using Graph-Based Representations Elevator Pitch: Helium&#39;s Blockchain API is an effective way to view historical data stored on-chain, but the ledger-base...
💯 1
10:04
the developer will likely be invited to be on this committee
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ooooo never seen this link. very nice
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 10:06 AM
i said to dewi they need to be better at publishing this stuff, there are so many grants in
passed 1
10:06
Details of the DeWi Alliance Grant Program. Contribute to dewi-alliance/grants development by creating an account on GitHub.
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bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 10:23 AM
As a @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io trusted mapper can I get a grant to give up my day job and spend my time trotting the globe with a 'is that a helium tracker in your pocket, or are you just pleased to see me?'
🤣 2
10:24
I have already secured whitelistmyhotspot.com
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Can we also address the doofs that are giving away free hotspots and over saturating metro areas? I actually know the answer to this, but it still twerks me. 🤪
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I understand that it may be a controversial decision for some that there is a committee in charge of banning accounts that are dedicated to cheating (and that the risks and consequences that this would entail should be studied), but I think it is important to take steps so that the network that we are creating more fair and optimal. Be tough on cheaters, we can't let a feeling begin to emerge that cheating is more worthwhile than contributing to the project by providing a real coverage area.
11:10
What happens if a company or an individual buys iot devices by looking at the helium map and when they are deployed they find that their coverage area does not really exist? I think that any case of permissiveness on cheating accounts affects the reputation of the project
11:11
To prevent this, it is necessary for Helium to have the resources to be able to ban accounts that are dedicated to cheating so clearly (hotspots with IPs from other countries, arranged on the map in a "nice" way, that they have registered 50 hotspots in the same area in a single day ...)
11:11
I do not mean that when any of these cases occur it means that you are cheating, it depends on each particular case.
11:11
Logically, the suspicious account should be notified and provide evidence that it is not performing any act
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11:11
As @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io says, it could be interesting to carry out a preliminary study of the problem in depth, creating a team of professionals and providing them with the resources to be able to analyze the real state of the network (which surprises me that it is not currently done).
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Jorgehsmp
As @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io says, it could be interesting to carry out a preliminary study of the problem in depth, creating a team of professionals and providing them with the resources to be able to analyze the real state of the network (which surprises me that it is not currently done).
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 11:12 AM
its been attempted for sure
11:12
it just seemed to go nowhere
11:12
the new ML grant is promising tho
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Not to be captain obvious, but this could have been prevented (or at least made much more difficult) if the hotspot manufacturers were required to include a GPS chip.
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Impatient
Not to be captain obvious, but this could have been prevented (or at least made much more difficult) if the hotspot manufacturers were required to include a GPS chip.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 11:15 AM
please look gps up on this discord, anywhere, it was tried, but often failed indoors, it wasn't reliable
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I think the DeWi denylist should be required on validators (as opposed to opt-in). It's hard enough getting validators to keep their software updated. If it's an all-or-nothing case (which seems to be a technical limitation), then I fear that enough validators won't opt-in to make this effective.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
please look gps up on this discord, anywhere, it was tried, but often failed indoors, it wasn't reliable
It's not reliable with the stock SMT antennas. If you use a proper antenna, it works in my livingroom.
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wulfhere
I think the DeWi denylist should be required on validators (as opposed to opt-in). It's hard enough getting validators to keep their software updated. If it's an all-or-nothing case (which seems to be a technical limitation), then I fear that enough validators won't opt-in to make this effective.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 11:16 AM
its opt-out for validators
11:17
automatically included in a firmware update, of which they can then choose to remove it/add others at any stage
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Impatient
It's not reliable with the stock SMT antennas. If you use a proper antenna, it works in my livingroom.
GPS is easier to fake than tits
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If only there was a way to force a user to use their exact position
11:28
But I just read the gps comment above
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In the HIP as written, there are some open questions. How would those get answered?
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Emulating a GPS could be something "easy" to do in the hardware layer... and more when most of hotspots are raspberrys where you can access easily to the communication tracks (edited)
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lonalde
If only there was a way to force a user to use their exact position
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 11:31 AM
KYC, with a photo of you, your install, a piece of A4 paper with the hotspot name and a local police person in the background
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11:31
Every morning
11:32
with a date on the A4 paper
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wulfhere
In the HIP as written, there are some open questions. How would those get answered?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 11:32 AM
we would define them before this went for a full vote
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we would define them before this went for a full vote
Do we need to wait though? I bet if this HIP was cloned and sent to full vote on the top of the new year, it would pass with flying colors
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Anunnaaki
Do we need to wait though? I bet if this HIP was cloned and sent to full vote on the top of the new year, it would pass with flying colors
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 11:43 AM
hard to say, id like to get it through and openly define everything, but for some thats a step too far, not defining the issue enough\
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BizzareMagician 12/21/2021 11:45 AM
I like this idea but I think the community is quick to pass it due to the fact that eliminating gamers increases the money they make
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ship now fix later
11:45
lol
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BizzareMagician 12/21/2021 11:45 AM
I do think there needs to be a more permanent way to reduce gamers, we can't always manually detect who is and isn't gaming
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So a user has found a collection of hotspots in Quesnel, BC, Canada (which in itself doesn't seem right...) which all are set up under the same wallet, all under IP addresses that originate in HK, China and from just looking at it, it's an obvious gaming operation. I am hopeful that one day this issue can be tackled as a network and blacklist these thief's but I guess there always will be risk to legitimate set ups and I guess that needs to be addressed somehow?
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Impatient
It's not reliable with the stock SMT antennas. If you use a proper antenna, it works in my livingroom.
a GPS data stream isn't that hard to fake. If you're already faking attenuation and other things to game, then...this isn't that much of an extra lift. (edited)
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BizzareMagician
I do think there needs to be a more permanent way to reduce gamers, we can't always manually detect who is and isn't gaming
it's a game of whack a mole It could get rid of the most obvious ones right away and it will be a huge win for real, honest, hotspot owners but eventually the cheaters will find another way =/
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bduffez
GPS is easier to fake than tits
I just googled it. There is literally an app for that.
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Impatient
I just googled it. There is literally an app for that.
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 11:56 AM
tits or gps?
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bigdaveakers
tits or gps?
I can't have both?
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I think this hip is worth trying out at a small scale to assess the impacts- that would allow the community overall to make a more informed decision
12:06
Also, in any official language we should consider using terms like spoof list vs validated list, or something even more unique to helium. Partly to build culture and partly to avoid potential discrimination lawsuits.
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muffinscrub
So a user has found a collection of hotspots in Quesnel, BC, Canada (which in itself doesn't seem right...) which all are set up under the same wallet, all under IP addresses that originate in HK, China and from just looking at it, it's an obvious gaming operation. I am hopeful that one day this issue can be tackled as a network and blacklist these thief's but I guess there always will be risk to legitimate set ups and I guess that needs to be addressed somehow?
Look, it is more serious that that... look at this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112JoabJEvGrjrZuehLSDetMcdSdtXqaTnQHUpJPnHzghCoawpUK and let me know if any hotspot of that wallet has witness with external hotspots (edited)
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12:08
Oh wait, a real hotspot does not have witness with the 90% of the hotspots of the city https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11BeJTACWCt1JBZGxvDAJ8kgbaeSjKnAgjgwNit7bt5ZfXxZCHj (neither the hotspots of that city with a different wallet) (edited)
12:09
and the worst thing is that if you see the rewards received by that account, they are earning more from PoCv11... (edited)
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Jorgehsmp
Look, it is more serious that that... look at this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112JoabJEvGrjrZuehLSDetMcdSdtXqaTnQHUpJPnHzghCoawpUK and let me know if any hotspot of that wallet has witness with external hotspots (edited)
It could be a "host" sending out hotspots to people to set up on their behalf and gives them a fee The one hotspot where you see a dot in the ocean isn't abnormal they could be up to 300m from that location and they probably won't get invalids
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Men, take a look at the place, hotspots, wallets and beaconi transaction details for 5/10 minutes... you will not have doubts
12:17
and as you can see, all their hotspots are relayed, so they even didn't try a complex way to cheat the network
12:19
The way to act against cheaters would be to make such difficult that it will not deserve to cheat... but look at this... earning 14K$/month with no complex infrastructure behind (edited)
12:23
Don't you see it weird?
12:28
and what are the options? wait months until the magic recipe is found so that the network can automatically identify this type of practice? In the meantime, I would prefer that a committee of specialized people can identify these types of accounts and penalize them in case they are proven to be cheating.
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what's wrong with these 3 hotspots?
12:29
they earn a fraction of the average miner, seem to have normal witnesses... ??
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Last 2 hotspots are set in a real location
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Jorgehsmp
Look, it is more serious that that... look at this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112JoabJEvGrjrZuehLSDetMcdSdtXqaTnQHUpJPnHzghCoawpUK and let me know if any hotspot of that wallet has witness with external hotspots (edited)
this account is a farm
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like raising pigs and growing crops, or as in miners stacked in a shelf in a basement cheating their earnings?
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io what if the HIP 40 has a combination approach... if POCv11 requires accurate location assertion: How about a denylist/warning based on location triangulation. In order to do this properly, you'd need a list of verified hotspot locations... If you have enough verified locations, you could tell if a hotspot is located where they say they are based on signal strength from multiple witnesses from other verified hotspots. The beauty of this approach is that when a verified hotspot confirms another hotspot's location, that hotspot can automatically become verified (until a new location is asserted or a hotspot loses credibility due to inconsistency in the results)
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Tradeology
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io what if the HIP 40 has a combination approach... if POCv11 requires accurate location assertion: How about a denylist/warning based on location triangulation. In order to do this properly, you'd need a list of verified hotspot locations... If you have enough verified locations, you could tell if a hotspot is located where they say they are based on signal strength from multiple witnesses from other verified hotspots. The beauty of this approach is that when a verified hotspot confirms another hotspot's location, that hotspot can automatically become verified (until a new location is asserted or a hotspot loses credibility due to inconsistency in the results)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 12:34 PM
that would be a separate hip, and not what we're proposing
12:34
this is about a validator deny list
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Someone mentioned that some "gamers" are moving towards getting their own validators. It'd be hard to get the validators to implement such a list, no?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 12:37 PM
not what we're proposing, again, would be another hip
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12:37
this is literally only about the deny list and the process what the hip lays out anything else would be a seperate hip
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 12:39 PM
I do have a question though regarding this statement: At this point hosts can submit evidence, and a committee will vote (super majority) to accept or deny this evidence. This suggests that the "evidence" being submitted is unknown. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, can we provide a list of items that we consider collectively as valid "evidence" then there is no confusion as to what can be submitted
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 12:42 PM
yeah what would be accepted needs to be talked about
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
this is literally only about the deny list and the process what the hip lays out anything else would be a seperate hip
I get it. I think the HIP does make sense, but at the same time, I have my own personal reservations because of how slippery this slope can become and how the committee could be overwhelmed by the sheer number of unverified 'gamers'. I hope there is a method to ascertain undeniable proof of gaming to supplement this HIP to make this one more palatable.
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What about adding hotspot wallets to the denylist? If a wallet was for example 50 spoofed devices, those devices should be on the list and the wallet should be banned from onboarding new hotspots for x amount of days while still allowing the wallet to send/receive transactions. Maybe having a flag on the app that can report suspected hotspots (without notifying the hotspot owner that they got reported) (edited)
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Meeeaaow
What about adding hotspot wallets to the denylist? If a wallet was for example 50 spoofed devices, those devices should be on the list and the wallet should be banned from onboarding new hotspots for x amount of days while still allowing the wallet to send/receive transactions. Maybe having a flag on the app that can report suspected hotspots (without notifying the hotspot owner that they got reported) (edited)
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 12:43 PM
meh, then you just make a new wallet and game that way
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
meh, then you just make a new wallet and game that way
but that way the hotspots and the wallet are both banned. So no rewards on the hotspots, and the wallet cant add or spoof more hotspots for x amount of days (edited)
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Meeeaaow
but that way the hotspots and the wallet are both banned. So no rewards on the hotspots, and the wallet cant add or spoof more hotspots for x amount of days (edited)
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 12:44 PM
i see, wallet in addition to.. yeah that makes sense
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I vote YES. Did I do that right?
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If its clearly a malicious wallet with all hotspots being spoofed, the owner has no good intention to be legit, so the wallet should also be banned from onboarding new hotspots AND from transferring hotspots, but should still be allowed to make send/receive transactions. I also believe that banned hotspots should not be able to be transferred to other wallets in order to reduce fraud or scams. For example if a hotspot gets banned and the owner decides to sell the banned hotspot to an unknowing person, the banned hotspot should not be allowed to be transferred until the ban is lifted.
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Meeeaaow
If its clearly a malicious wallet with all hotspots being spoofed, the owner has no good intention to be legit, so the wallet should also be banned from onboarding new hotspots AND from transferring hotspots, but should still be allowed to make send/receive transactions. I also believe that banned hotspots should not be able to be transferred to other wallets in order to reduce fraud or scams. For example if a hotspot gets banned and the owner decides to sell the banned hotspot to an unknowing person, the banned hotspot should not be allowed to be transferred until the ban is lifted.
define: "...clearly a malicious wallet..."
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The problem would be that those people would sell the banned hotspot and someone can buy it not knowing that it is banned
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Jorgehsmp
The problem would be that those people would sell the banned hotspot and someone can buy it not knowing that it is banned
Well there would be some kind of indication on the hotspot that it is banned (similar to the relayed warning on the hotspot). The buyer would have to due their due diligence to look up the hotspot ahead of time. Regardless the banned hotspot should not be able to be moved between wallets. (edited)
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Tradeology
define: "...clearly a malicious wallet..."
From my understanding thats what this HIP is for, for us to implement a denylist based on a certain set of requirements (edited)
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I think the HIP is to implement a denylist that gets loaded into the validators, not the method of identifying malicious activity.
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co8 | hds 📡🔥🥑🍕🥓 12/21/2021 12:51 PM
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So, it's part of the solution, not the entirety of it
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Tradeology
define: "...clearly a malicious wallet..."
This is something that has to be defined by a committee of experts taking into account the evidence of each case. (edited)
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Jorgehsmp
This is something that has to be defined by a committee of experts taking into account the evidence of each case. (edited)
This is the problem... evidence will be based on data, not physical. So, it's either voluntary information from the owner, or analysis from collected data. If you rely on voluntary information, that's a slow moving enforcement. If we rely on data, we can actually trigger a whole lot of false positives/negatives... this is a really hard nut to crack.
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but is you base the evidence on data, the cheaters can buy lots of sensors that can show their hotpots more valid that the real ones (edited)
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I think the idea is to see just how widespread the problem is first and maybe code can be written to identify possible gamer abnormalities? then an idea of how to tackle the problem comes later
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Jorgehsmp
but is you base the evidence on data, the cheaters can buy lots of sensors that can show their hotpots more valid that the real ones (edited)
The differentiation from a verified (aka "innocent" hotspot) versus a suspected gaming hotspot should be the focus in order to construct a proper denylist. Then getting the validators to adopt/load the list is the next challenge.
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if you look over china there are a lot of perfectly set up crop circle looking arrangements all over the place but you have to be able to prove they're gamers and not someone with deep pockets first.
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muffinscrub
if you look over china there are a lot of perfectly set up crop circle looking arrangements all over the place but you have to be able to prove they're gamers and not someone with deep pockets first.
Correct. What if these are data scientists that understand how to properly construct a farm for max gain. Building a farm is not against the rules, after all.
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Tradeology
The differentiation from a verified (aka "innocent" hotspot) versus a suspected gaming hotspot should be the focus in order to construct a proper denylist. Then getting the validators to adopt/load the list is the next challenge.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 1:00 PM
I agree, the order of operation is backwards... but i think all in all, in this particular scenario, the chicken can exist before the egg. Allowing the validators to accept a denylist doesnt mean we need to populate the list now
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Tradeology
Correct. What if these are data scientists that understand how to properly construct a farm for max gain. Building a farm is not against the rules, after all.
muffinscrub 12/21/2021 1:01 PM
but I have found these same arrangements in places in canada I know aren't real set ups due to how remote they are and the ip addresses point back to China lol
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Jorgehsmp
this account is a farm
You got to give them some credit, 640 hotspots. $400*640 = $256,000 (conservative est.) just to buy the miners. even making $15,000/mo runs 17 months to payback just miners. All the other networking equipment and configuration needed as well. Pretty big risk for that long of a play. Lets say you ban them from the system. 15000 dollars divided by 420000 miners = $.03 per miner per month. At ~80,000 miners added in last 30 days the amount of miners will more than likely double in 5 months cutting current rewards in half. This is small money at this scale. Juice ain't worth the squeeze here. Banning hotspots for POC is no bueno from my point of view
word 1
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JRex
You got to give them some credit, 640 hotspots. $400*640 = $256,000 (conservative est.) just to buy the miners. even making $15,000/mo runs 17 months to payback just miners. All the other networking equipment and configuration needed as well. Pretty big risk for that long of a play. Lets say you ban them from the system. 15000 dollars divided by 420000 miners = $.03 per miner per month. At ~80,000 miners added in last 30 days the amount of miners will more than likely double in 5 months cutting current rewards in half. This is small money at this scale. Juice ain't worth the squeeze here. Banning hotspots for POC is no bueno from my point of view
muffinscrub 12/21/2021 1:02 PM
I think lots of "hosts" are wrongly accused of being gamers
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JRex
You got to give them some credit, 640 hotspots. $400*640 = $256,000 (conservative est.) just to buy the miners. even making $15,000/mo runs 17 months to payback just miners. All the other networking equipment and configuration needed as well. Pretty big risk for that long of a play. Lets say you ban them from the system. 15000 dollars divided by 420000 miners = $.03 per miner per month. At ~80,000 miners added in last 30 days the amount of miners will more than likely double in 5 months cutting current rewards in half. This is small money at this scale. Juice ain't worth the squeeze here. Banning hotspots for POC is no bueno from my point of view
These gamers have been existence for a long time. Most gamers have made a ton of HNT prior to first halving.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 1:03 PM
We're way off subject here guys, but "gaming" has never officially been defined, so technically none of them are doing anything wrong
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
We're way off subject here guys, but "gaming" has never officially been defined, so technically none of them are doing anything wrong
Agreed. I think that's another HIP
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ihatehangovers 12/21/2021 1:04 PM
Asserting location in a hex that the miner isn’t located in
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JRex
You got to give them some credit, 640 hotspots. $400*640 = $256,000 (conservative est.) just to buy the miners. even making $15,000/mo runs 17 months to payback just miners. All the other networking equipment and configuration needed as well. Pretty big risk for that long of a play. Lets say you ban them from the system. 15000 dollars divided by 420000 miners = $.03 per miner per month. At ~80,000 miners added in last 30 days the amount of miners will more than likely double in 5 months cutting current rewards in half. This is small money at this scale. Juice ain't worth the squeeze here. Banning hotspots for POC is no bueno from my point of view
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ihatehangovers
Asserting location in a hex that the miner isn’t located in
I was a gamer pre-poc11, based on that definition.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
muffinscrub 12/21/2021 1:06 PM
I'm still ~100m away from actual 🙄 am I a gamer? lol
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ihatehangovers 12/21/2021 1:06 PM
Right, but the point is POC - if I affirm 50 miners in a pattern in the middle of Antarctica and my IP is based in Moscow, I’m obviously not covering squat (edited)
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I am offset as well, stalkers are a real problem 😆
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My definition of gaming (both must apply): 1. Hotspots that don't help the growth of the network 2. Hotspots that take in unusually high rewards based on circumstances
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muffinscrub 12/21/2021 1:09 PM
I feel like this HIP is the first step to being able to protect the network from bad actors how they are defined is up to another discussion I guess
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ihatehangovers 12/21/2021 1:10 PM
My hex has 13 miners. 10 are relayed, 2 are clearly setup poorly and have <10 witnesses, then me. Coincidentally they’re all on a border of another really crowded hex.
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muffinscrub
I feel like this HIP is the first step to being able to protect the network from bad actors how they are defined is up to another discussion I guess
This may require a few additional HIPs as a precedent and a few more thereafter to create a comprehensive anti-gaming protocol.
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Now having a hotspot quality score for data packet delivery, latency time, witnessing could be interesting, but banning hotspots by committee seems like a middle manager that should be replaced with code.
13:15
validators have quality scores
13:16
but, I have a nebra at a location that didn't send a beacon for 2 weeks
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 1:16 PM
It is the "for now" until the validators can do it.. to start doing something about it now
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It is clear that a committee of experts is not going to come and tell you that you are cheating by moving your hotspot 100 m. That's what PoCv11 is for, to invalidate your beacons. What is proposed is that accounts that use these practices, which said committee considers as evident, can be investigated and, if proven, banned
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ihatehangovers 12/21/2021 1:28 PM
Would it make sense for less beacons to be sent by hotspots not experiencing growth in witnesses or data transferring?
13:29
If a group of 20 spoofed miners clearly not providing POC to the area they’re asserted to and only witness each other, this would reduce rewards they earn, no?
13:30
Would remove the need for a deny list by just scaling rewards to nil for those doing next to nothing for the network minus gaming it
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 1:31 PM
Can we move anything none HIP40 related to the #poc-discussion channel... It's going to be hard for others to keep up with what is HIP 40 and what isnt
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This is as far from decentralization as possible. Plug the errors w/ code. (edited)
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BigSky
This is as far from decentralization as possible. Plug the errors w/ code. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 1:50 PM
If it were plug-able with code don't you think that would have been done by now?
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Helium Inc., a San Francisco, CA-based decentralized wireless network, raised $111m in funding
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I think its safe to say that proving things in physical world through digital means is extraordinarily difficult (in a decentralized way) and we need some human element until someone comes up with something novel to stop it
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I think its safe to say that the human element can be removed with code and bug fixing.
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what if a cabal of validator+hotspot operators add in a deny list to filter out hotspots/earnings from competitors? or hotspots near theirs to increase their earnings
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 1:56 PM
theyd have to have a serious lockup and number of validators
13:56
to make any real impact
13:56
a very costly hack if you ask me
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sounds like we'd need a new HIP and a committee for that?
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not if you already have the validators
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normium
not if you already have the validators
you would have to control a ton of validators (hundreds or more) to have all of them elected in CG at the same time. Unless they all are in at the same time, it wont work
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hence cabal
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 1:57 PM
Seems like that issue should be addressed first though, ya
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normium
hence cabal
I suppose a staking provider could do this....but they could do that now if they wanted tbh
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normium
hence cabal
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 1:58 PM
well
13:58
they could do that right now
13:58
deny ip's
13:58
alter code
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 1:58 PM
I was coming here to ask a similar question, whats stopping some big spenders with big spoof projjects from buying /hacking their way through with validators that can just deny anyone and wreak havoc
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ethics lol
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
It is the "for now" until the validators can do it.. to start doing something about it now
if an investor( hedge funds) could see a way to 10x+ their $$$ high probability of happening
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I was coming here to ask a similar question, whats stopping some big spenders with big spoof projjects from buying /hacking their way through with validators that can just deny anyone and wreak havoc
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 1:59 PM
because it costs 10k hnt + 5 months unstake to control a validator, thats not exactly a cheap way to hack, and you'd need a lot of validators to make any difference
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and people with large amounts of money are very ethical.
13:59
thats the arguemnt right
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 1:59 PM
remember, if 1 validator doesn't have the deny (edited)
13:59
it wont go through
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
a very costly hack if you ask me
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 2:00 PM
Do some maths uncle Neil! How many validators in a consensus round? How many in total? What is the probability of having all the validators in a CG and where is the point that it becomes more than 50% probable that you override the deny list in a given round? How many validators do I need?
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bigdaveakers
Do some maths uncle Neil! How many validators in a consensus round? How many in total? What is the probability of having all the validators in a CG and where is the point that it becomes more than 50% probable that you override the deny list in a given round? How many validators do I need?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:00 PM
Im brain dead from today, want to do it? (edited)
14:00
😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it wont go through
good point
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Im brain dead from today, want to do it? (edited)
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 2:01 PM
I think it is a metric fuck tonne of HNT
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I was coming here to ask a similar question, whats stopping some big spenders with big spoof projjects from buying /hacking their way through with validators that can just deny anyone and wreak havoc
currently 3k Validators and only 43 get elected to CG at a given point. To get enough Validators to get into CG all at the same time to do this, they would need 10k HNT ( $250k) * a lot of Validators to do it (I'm sure someone could math the probabilities to see what minimum number of Validators required to do it). Regardless, it would be many millions of $.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:01 PM
just to block a hotspot
14:01
when they could just buy one for $500 and hack it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:01 PM
which do you think they're going to do
14:01
stake millions for a tiny hack
14:01
or just game the firmware
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
stake millions for a tiny hack
Game firmware .
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 2:02 PM
Fair
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There is probaly already software emulators of real miners.
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there are 3389 validators and the top counts grouped by owner are: # select count(*) as cnt, owner from validator_inventory group by owner order by cnt desc limit 50; cnt | owner -----+----------------------------------------------------- 345 | 14bPkx9h3JkkfZWXXVCsjdPbKKdXxS5LrA4PF9YjpLFvxM5qHzw 133 | 13hKQD1iGeD4UNRDDBq1nXM5im9YWq8sewum76KMgj7xVsNRhPV 109 | 14RddnkW1UGNwNipHWw3LxJHTAxdMHRRw55Hx8YnufLfDJQwvgn 103 | 136nSZ4niPtQNLqgVKi2uj5KVBw363vnjTciBYkv1LcVvda7fgP 100 | 14EZ5XygH3qvDd9JSPZxxvUiMD233yQFmAioHSAjs1grxugGxWd 85 | 14a9yBWqiKjSt8JtbaejVGgNwhYh3vMeoN7QjT6W7MynbdVvZCm 68 | 13RtTjMaNpqEQBQqN9K1RezaHJS1cTmX9iMJch3tnGM2XVKz7k6 60 | 13ZDA9iVjHnYLPfkERwWRSjAgKs6f7T7Ra9Ahy4GfE7fY6g8cuE 54 | 14sMaPVnd8bYmcWgX5bcWqeMDRKK9rnKMziZFeyHxRoDp2kBeC7 53 | 14ZUjjjG2YPYHvzW4xHmUYAJFkiTSNV2nG317H27z5CAp1XAXpw 47 | 142fmJcnY5rUoH6A4Wb8EMHnpjxmZATCiQiaT1mZ4LYffoM8uwm 45 | 146MXqWB9nVGjuFWnyrVWHhvHh84PzZVokJaCvKAzYMSeY3CkHP 42 | 14nYSAgAP4z6QqdnDgcyAPS9Hg6fCQXkDmyFH8nqMFX29UYhXCJ 42 | 14cK9qpU4BFtoivcugWnprTR7Lx4BabyJ4qMQ6jfzCgaoa3KVBC 39 | 14QLjXRXhsN4FcLCiuuxJDjawf2uasWN65jgEr3m1h3iWcQPsWR 39 | 14Sh6hbxMC3o3W64kpzuuM9tQ7svA1kmP3XoNYybyimuYrcmAex 36 | 13xUgU5QC1v6SLv3DeTibiV5WwA9af4yTvHRqpmvZ42BPAVXQmi 35 | 14KBub7iK5eriDtipgqRthwa3qL6mmMraMqSi1iumTV7QPcWMG8 34 | 13AohdX9BgnjiXuBUibLv8zCn3yB8jEyZVSeigzkKJTQw5NqASx 32 | 14aDLshY7p2MJrCgbYrWFZZfjB1MBSqHboo2cJCPCVR9Meorh7w this doesn't account for person/org having multiple accounts (edited)
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 2:03 PM
but wait, we're talking about existing wallets though vs someone newly hacking on... what if Im already on and your hip40 screws me, so im like hey i know 30 other spoofers i learned this hack from, maybe we put our millions together and for our own CG? Is there any probability there?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:04 PM
form your own CG?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
form your own CG?
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 2:04 PM
enough validators to form a valid cg (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:05 PM
thats not how it works, there can only be one
14:05
they could fork and run their own but it would be that, a fork, not main chain
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats not how it works, there can only be one
bigdaveakers 12/21/2021 2:05 PM
I know his name!
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 12/21/2021 2:05 PM
aah got it ok
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Jorgehsmp
To prevent this, it is necessary for Helium to have the resources to be able to ban accounts that are dedicated to cheating so clearly (hotspots with IPs from other countries, arranged on the map in a "nice" way, that they have registered 50 hotspots in the same area in a single day ...)
Good ideas
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bigdaveakers
I know his name!
👀
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io where do I vote
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normium
there are 3389 validators and the top counts grouped by owner are: # select count(*) as cnt, owner from validator_inventory group by owner order by cnt desc limit 50; cnt | owner -----+----------------------------------------------------- 345 | 14bPkx9h3JkkfZWXXVCsjdPbKKdXxS5LrA4PF9YjpLFvxM5qHzw 133 | 13hKQD1iGeD4UNRDDBq1nXM5im9YWq8sewum76KMgj7xVsNRhPV 109 | 14RddnkW1UGNwNipHWw3LxJHTAxdMHRRw55Hx8YnufLfDJQwvgn 103 | 136nSZ4niPtQNLqgVKi2uj5KVBw363vnjTciBYkv1LcVvda7fgP 100 | 14EZ5XygH3qvDd9JSPZxxvUiMD233yQFmAioHSAjs1grxugGxWd 85 | 14a9yBWqiKjSt8JtbaejVGgNwhYh3vMeoN7QjT6W7MynbdVvZCm 68 | 13RtTjMaNpqEQBQqN9K1RezaHJS1cTmX9iMJch3tnGM2XVKz7k6 60 | 13ZDA9iVjHnYLPfkERwWRSjAgKs6f7T7Ra9Ahy4GfE7fY6g8cuE 54 | 14sMaPVnd8bYmcWgX5bcWqeMDRKK9rnKMziZFeyHxRoDp2kBeC7 53 | 14ZUjjjG2YPYHvzW4xHmUYAJFkiTSNV2nG317H27z5CAp1XAXpw 47 | 142fmJcnY5rUoH6A4Wb8EMHnpjxmZATCiQiaT1mZ4LYffoM8uwm 45 | 146MXqWB9nVGjuFWnyrVWHhvHh84PzZVokJaCvKAzYMSeY3CkHP 42 | 14nYSAgAP4z6QqdnDgcyAPS9Hg6fCQXkDmyFH8nqMFX29UYhXCJ 42 | 14cK9qpU4BFtoivcugWnprTR7Lx4BabyJ4qMQ6jfzCgaoa3KVBC 39 | 14QLjXRXhsN4FcLCiuuxJDjawf2uasWN65jgEr3m1h3iWcQPsWR 39 | 14Sh6hbxMC3o3W64kpzuuM9tQ7svA1kmP3XoNYybyimuYrcmAex 36 | 13xUgU5QC1v6SLv3DeTibiV5WwA9af4yTvHRqpmvZ42BPAVXQmi 35 | 14KBub7iK5eriDtipgqRthwa3qL6mmMraMqSi1iumTV7QPcWMG8 34 | 13AohdX9BgnjiXuBUibLv8zCn3yB8jEyZVSeigzkKJTQw5NqASx 32 | 14aDLshY7p2MJrCgbYrWFZZfjB1MBSqHboo2cJCPCVR9Meorh7w this doesn't account for person/org having multiple accounts (edited)
top 10 validator owners only = 1110 validators, approx 1/3rd of validators, top 1 is over 10% - not factoring in same org/person behind multiple accounts, this is def possible to cabal and create some issues (edited)
14:12
top 50 owners = 2048 validators, way past 51% (remember 3389 validators total) (edited)
14:12
actually, top 23 owners = over 51%
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normium
top 50 owners = 2048 validators, way past 51% (remember 3389 validators total) (edited)
Doesn't feel like peoples network.
14:14
Where is decentralisation in that.
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remember it's on the cards for PoC to go through validators too instead of dialing hotspot direct to challenge
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this is a bit of topic here. Maybe continue the discussion in #validator-ops ?
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normium
remember it's on the cards for PoC to go through validators too instead of dialing hotspot direct to challenge
What is interesting that original helium hotspot had gps connected and new ones do not have it. How difficult it is to have gps positioning on hotspot within 200 meters of actual.
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Tolik
What is interesting that original helium hotspot had gps connected and new ones do not have it. How difficult it is to have gps positioning on hotspot within 200 meters of actual.
very difficult when talking about indoor setups...thats why it was dropped, but thats off topic as well 🙂
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Radrob
very difficult when talking about indoor setups...thats why it was dropped, but thats off topic as well 🙂
At least for asserting and further confirmation from poc.
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normium
actually, top 23 owners = over 51%
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:20 PM
That is a concern for sure , even without talking about this hip, I think future endeavours such as partial staking would help boost the decentralisation of validators
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Meeeaaow
If its clearly a malicious wallet with all hotspots being spoofed, the owner has no good intention to be legit, so the wallet should also be banned from onboarding new hotspots AND from transferring hotspots, but should still be allowed to make send/receive transactions. I also believe that banned hotspots should not be able to be transferred to other wallets in order to reduce fraud or scams. For example if a hotspot gets banned and the owner decides to sell the banned hotspot to an unknowing person, the banned hotspot should not be allowed to be transferred until the ban is lifted.
I try since months pray on that solutions. Im with u
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Radrob
this is a bit of topic here. Maybe continue the discussion in #validator-ops ?
granted on the last point, but the % of validators run by a small amount of accounts is very pertinent to the introduction of deny lists (edited)
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normium
granted on the last point, but the % of validators run by a small amount of accounts is very pertinent to the introduction of deny lists (edited)
Exactly. Feels like introduction of centralised control.
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normium
granted on the last point, but the % of validators run by a small amount of accounts is very pertinent to the introduction of deny lists (edited)
yea that i do agree with. It is a potential talking point against a deny list, but its not different then today already
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There has to be technological solution linked to actual real position relatively to other miners or approx gps location.
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Radrob
yea that i do agree with. It is a potential talking point against a deny list, but its not different then today already
Than it is already a problem and opens doors to corruption.
14:26
That means whatever we talk here is just hot air.
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Tolik
That means whatever we talk here is just hot air.
No, there is still plenty of merit in implementing a denylist to stop egregious gaming. The ability to takeover CG still requires 2/3+1 Validators in their control to do it consistently. That equates to 2k+ Validators today. This is an issue worth discussing long term for sure (just like ghash and BTC 51%), but not a major issue right now.
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Noobie1Canolli 12/21/2021 2:45 PM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I think the best thing is to try and agree on what clearly and unequivocally crosses the line and implement some automatic way of removing those potentially 100% bad actors, pending a review. That way they aren't allowed to game the system while siphoning HNT from the project or legit people. That should lighten the load and allow for easier reporting and investigating of borderline cases that are best dealt with individually.
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Noobie1Canolli
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io I think the best thing is to try and agree on what clearly and unequivocally crosses the line and implement some automatic way of removing those potentially 100% bad actors, pending a review. That way they aren't allowed to game the system while siphoning HNT from the project or legit people. That should lighten the load and allow for easier reporting and investigating of borderline cases that are best dealt with individually.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:46 PM
If it could be done automatically this hip would have proposed that, were talking about a manual committee action at this time
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Tolik
What is interesting that original helium hotspot had gps connected and new ones do not have it. How difficult it is to have gps positioning on hotspot within 200 meters of actual.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 12/21/2021 2:47 PM
Actually, they do
14:47
The rak has a gps in it
14:47
Its not used.
14:47
But its there
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Sensecaps not. Did not see rak inside.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 12/21/2021 2:48 PM
If you want to look into it I can grab you some links
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Let’s keep this on topic please
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Wonder why they disconnected gps apart for privacy isues as it still could be used in real life . Then Pisces would not be able reasert themselves around the earth with speed of light.
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Radrob
Let’s keep this on topic please
💯 Not A Bot 💯 12/21/2021 2:51 PM
Ill move to off topic
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
remember, if 1 validator doesn't have the deny (edited)
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 2:54 PM
But validators can choose to implement the deny list or not. Either I'm missing something fundamental or it just takes one validator to opt out to render the entire system ineffective.
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captainhindsight
But validators can choose to implement the deny list or not. Either I'm missing something fundamental or it just takes one validator to opt out to render the entire system ineffective.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:55 PM
They have to be in consensus to count
14:55
Any validator can remove the list , but it's only when they're in consensus that it would count
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 12/21/2021 2:56 PM
Will this be a quick implementation if it does pass the real vote?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Will this be a quick implementation if it does pass the real vote?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:56 PM
Apparently so, helium have confirmed they would write it so
14:56
Technically it's not a huge change
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and if some hotspot is wrongly on one of that deny list, how will it be able to prove that shouldn't on a deny list? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 2:58 PM
They can appeal, the process of which would need to be defined
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and if someone believes there are some hotspots spoofing how can that hotspots be referenced? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Any validator can remove the list , but it's only when they're in consensus that it would count
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:00 PM
But one with no deny list selected as a member of a concensus group wins?
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Wouldn't it be in the best interest for validator owners to charge banned hotspots to be whitelisted by their validator(s), extra for expedited removal?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:01 PM
Yeah if 1 of all concensus members didn't have a list or that hotspot on the list , the deny wouldn't stand (edited)
15:01
Remember elections and members are changed every 45? Minutes
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yeah if 1 of all concensus members didn't have a list or that hotspot on the list , the deny wouldn't stand (edited)
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:03 PM
I can see why - concensus is all or nothing but it seems that a few 'principled' validator operators could shoot this HIP down in flames.
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captainhindsight
I can see why - concensus is all or nothing but it seems that a few 'principled' validator operators could shoot this HIP down in flames.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:03 PM
How often would they be in consensus tho
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
How often would they be in consensus tho
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:07 PM
I honestly don't know. I know nothing really about validators or how they work. My gut feel is that we all need a stake and a vote - and that may well have been a core element of the original dream, given that concensus was originally a network wide function, until it turned out not to scale that way. Q. Do validators even care if the network is gamed? Does gaming affect them in any way?
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captainhindsight
I honestly don't know. I know nothing really about validators or how they work. My gut feel is that we all need a stake and a vote - and that may well have been a core element of the original dream, given that concensus was originally a network wide function, until it turned out not to scale that way. Q. Do validators even care if the network is gamed? Does gaming affect them in any way?
ihatehangovers 12/21/2021 3:08 PM
They make money regardless
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ihatehangovers
They make money regardless
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:09 PM
That's what I thought. So why should they care? And therefore why should they get to effectively be in control?
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Where and how to vote? Is it over at GitHub?
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Rav
Where and how to vote? Is it over at GitHub?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:09 PM
It's just a temperature vote in discord, reply with a reaction https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/922800000772235324
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:10 PM
Not a full vote, just a vote that the idea is the right thing before we go and define it all
15:12
We (the community)
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While a committee of “professional” members is what we need, I’d like to suggest a jury of sorts in addition to the set group, perhaps a randomly selected group of hotspot owners possibly similar to how validators were once elected, these members could participate in the investigations. In hopes of maintaining decentralization in aspects such as these newly derived ideas.
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islandRoad
While a committee of “professional” members is what we need, I’d like to suggest a jury of sorts in addition to the set group, perhaps a randomly selected group of hotspot owners possibly similar to how validators were once elected, these members could participate in the investigations. In hopes of maintaining decentralization in aspects such as these newly derived ideas.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:13 PM
Yeah we thought about a jury, but we decided having seats for community members without a technical background that are voted for and have term lengths would do the same thing
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15:14
Their not expected to know everything technical, just give their honest open opinions and make sure the whole process is open and fair (edited)
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islandRoad
While a committee of “professional” members is what we need, I’d like to suggest a jury of sorts in addition to the set group, perhaps a randomly selected group of hotspot owners possibly similar to how validators were once elected, these members could participate in the investigations. In hopes of maintaining decentralization in aspects such as these newly derived ideas.
I like this idea.
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wow im surprised by the number in support of this vs. against. I would have expected it to much more controversial. As much as I want to see the big gamers dealt with I do believe this goes against what cryptocurrency stands for and what its intended to do. (edited)
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captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:16 PM
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm in favour of removing gamers from this network, and have so far been dismayed that nobody with any power to do so seemed to care. I'm just not convinced that this is the way. We're discussing a HIP proposal that, for all its lengthy discussion, seems to seek to answer a yes/no question, but then requires more HIP's and more lengthy discussions and can still be shot in the foot by a few uninterested or uncooperative validator owners. We need action now because, with all due respect to the authors, there's every chance the horse will have bolted long, long before we half heartedly close this stable door.
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captainhindsight
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm in favour of removing gamers from this network, and have so far been dismayed that nobody with any power to do so seemed to care. I'm just not convinced that this is the way. We're discussing a HIP proposal that, for all its lengthy discussion, seems to seek to answer a yes/no question, but then requires more HIP's and more lengthy discussions and can still be shot in the foot by a few uninterested or uncooperative validator owners. We need action now because, with all due respect to the authors, there's every chance the horse will have bolted long, long before we half heartedly close this stable door.
There is possibility that even some validators can be involved in letting horses run loose as in chaos you make more money.
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Tolik
There is possibility that even some validators can be involved in letting horses run loose as in chaos you make more money.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:23 PM
Run loose? What do you mean?
15:24
Remember they'd have to get all consensus members to agree the deny, to effect anyone's rewards, changing a few won't help
15:24
Changing a few would mean every X amount of times a month for 45 minutes , if they do PoC in that time, it will likely get through (edited)
15:24
But for the rest of the time, it won't
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captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:26 PM
It just seems a bit toothless, and wooly, and complex, as it stands, to be successful.
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captainhindsight
It just seems a bit toothless, and wooly, and complex, as it stands, to be successful.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:26 PM
Then suggest something else in #hip-discussion
15:26
And vote no :)
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captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:27 PM
Make it compulsory that validators implement it. That could be the difference that makes a difference.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:27 PM
We cannot force this on them, it's this way or not
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Then suggest something else in #hip-discussion
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:27 PM
I have one in the pipeline - on a different subject.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We cannot force this on them, it's this way or not
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:28 PM
Then it's not - because it doesn't matter to them.
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BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:32 PM
can some explain what is considered gaming?
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BlockChain_Halted
can some explain what is considered gaming?
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:32 PM
Claiming rewards you're not entitled to.
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BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:32 PM
and what exactly is that
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BlockChain_Halted
and what exactly is that
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:33 PM
Well what do you think it is?
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BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:33 PM
explain scenarios where one would not be entitled to rewards
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BlockChain_Halted
explain scenarios where one would not be entitled to rewards
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:35 PM
Honestly - can't be bothered because your tone suggests you're just looking for an argument I have no time for.
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BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:35 PM
huh
15:35
first of all, texts do not have tone
15:35
so don’t assume im picking a fight
15:35
im serious about my question
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BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:36 PM
I would like to know what scenarios would deem rewards being wrongly earned
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BlockChain_Halted
huh
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:36 PM
I'm serious about not wasting my time answering it. I'd like to see your input.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:37 PM
Some examples of previous would be Modesto when a group of hotspots were found to be clustered in a basement faking results
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BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:37 PM
maybe you can help educate me on the subject rather than think im trying to start some argument
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:37 PM
Some examples of potential would be the piscies clusters that have been popping up
15:37
Where they seem to be in China, but are asserted in clusters over the EU
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BlockChain_Halted
maybe you can help educate me on the subject rather than think im trying to start some argument
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:38 PM
I have zero interest in educating you. Educate yourself.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:38 PM
I say potential as nothings confirmed z just that it warrants investigation
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Am all for it one thing I did not see was how were the affected Hotspots going to be notified that a) allows them the appeal process b) ensure they are aware of the denial
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Some examples of previous would be Modesto when a group of hotspots were found to be clustered in a basement faking results
BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:38 PM
ok so for this example, wouldn’t those miners in the basement all together not earn from each other because they are too close even from an rssi perspective?
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BlockChain_Halted
I would like to know what scenarios would deem rewards being wrongly earned
Hotspots asserted location somewhere but physically elsewhere. Hotspots leveraging attenuators and other tricks to appear to be further apart then they really are and providing zero actual coverage. Other examples like that
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BlockChain_Halted
ok so for this example, wouldn’t those miners in the basement all together not earn from each other because they are too close even from an rssi perspective?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:38 PM
This was pre hip17, hip17 was to combat it
15:39
The process of getting hip17 was long and slow
15:39
And they pocketed a lot of funds in the time the hip was proposed to the time it got implemented
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captainhindsight
I have zero interest in educating you. Educate yourself.
BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:41 PM
bro, if your not gonna be helpful then close your hole. I asked a question in this channel, not specifically to you. You just felt like responding snarky. Just look at how others have answered my questions very professionally
15:41
for those who have responded nicely, thanks for sharing some examples
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:41 PM
@Anthonyra has an etl question showing the timeline of that hack if I remember
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BlockChain_Halted
bro, if your not gonna be helpful then close your hole. I asked a question in this channel, not specifically to you. You just felt like responding snarky. Just look at how others have answered my questions very professionally
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:42 PM
I'll speak when I like.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
@Anthonyra has an etl question showing the timeline of that hack if I remember
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Talking about Meerkat? I probably should have did backscroll 😅
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captainhindsight
I'll speak when I like.
BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:43 PM
you should be banned.
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BlockChain_Halted
you should be banned.
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:43 PM
No reason why.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:43 PM
This, look at the action time to when the hack was found, a plan to stop it and when it got implemented
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Radrob
Hotspots asserted location somewhere but physically elsewhere. Hotspots leveraging attenuators and other tricks to appear to be further apart then they really are and providing zero actual coverage. Other examples like that
BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:43 PM
thanks for sharing
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:44 PM
This is what this hip would speed up
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hello everyone, i would like to know if pocv11 really helped because i don't understand that farms are making more money since it was implemented.
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captainhindsight
Then it's not - because it doesn't matter to them.
From what I can tell, nearly all validator operators are running the stock software with stock configuration. So if you make it "opt-out" you'll get most validators using the deny-list just out of inertia and laziness.
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Jorks93
hello everyone, i would like to know if pocv11 really helped because i don't understand that farms are making more money since it was implemented.
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BlockChain_Halted 12/21/2021 3:46 PM
so how would you treat a miners in apartment buildings? for example, one person could have an antenna on the 10th floor and another person has an antenna on the 14th floor and both people have asserted their miners in the same spot since they live in the same tower
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
This is what this hip would speed up
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:46 PM
What specifically is it speeding up, and how? Unless I'm missing something this HIP aims to answer the question, should we or shouldn't we, and everything else needs more HIP's.
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captainhindsight
What specifically is it speeding up, and how? Unless I'm missing something this HIP aims to answer the question, should we or shouldn't we, and everything else needs more HIP's.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:47 PM
Reaction to hacks and gaming by serious offenders
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krby
From what I can tell, nearly all validator operators are running the stock software with stock configuration. So if you make it "opt-out" you'll get most validators using the deny-list just out of inertia and laziness.
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:48 PM
Then could we remove validators who don't play nice, in the same way we are looking to remove nodes that don't play nice?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Reaction to hacks and gaming by serious offenders
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:49 PM
Only once the mechanisms - yet to be designed and agreed - are put in place?
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captainhindsight
Only once the mechanisms - yet to be designed and agreed - are put in place?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:49 PM
The mechanism is defined
15:50
The hip defines how a list is generated voted on and applied
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captainhindsight
Then could we remove validators who don't play nice, in the same way we are looking to remove nodes that don't play nice?
That could be the proposal, but I think it will have less support that way, and you always have to assume some validators may choose to not use the deny list so the enforcement mechanism on validators has account fore that.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:50 PM
The finer detail about selection, formation, voting etc are all to be defined
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The mechanism is defined
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:50 PM
The committee(s)? The selection criteria? The appeals process?
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Radrob
Hotspots asserted location somewhere but physically elsewhere. Hotspots leveraging attenuators and other tricks to appear to be further apart then they really are and providing zero actual coverage. Other examples like that
Isn't this problem made easier by the new regional limits in PoCv11? One can assert one's antenna gain at a value such that the computed xmit power is higher than one's region allows, thereby making the hotspot attenuate the signal internally?
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captainhindsight
The committee(s)? The selection criteria? The appeals process?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:50 PM
The finer detail isn't, but the mechanism is (edited)
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Politically, it will be easier to pass and get implemented as an optional, but opt-out mechanism.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:50 PM
A validator deny list
15:51
That a committee selects and votes on who is added
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The finer detail isn't, but the mechanism is (edited)
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:52 PM
So it's a form of agreement in principle? A significant stepping stone to the full implementation?
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captainhindsight
So it's a form of agreement in principle? A significant stepping stone to the full implementation?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:52 PM
Yeah a temperature check that the idea of committee + validator based deny list is the right mechanism
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There isn't an incentive for validator owners to cooperate other than some worldly save the future of the helium network idea, which means it isn't in their best interest to use a deny list. Especially since doing so carries risks such as penalties for failures from bugs in implementation, possible higher resource requirements, and their own(or associates) hotspots being falsely on the list.
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speedracer
There isn't an incentive for validator owners to cooperate other than some worldly save the future of the helium network idea, which means it isn't in their best interest to use a deny list. Especially since doing so carries risks such as penalties for failures from bugs in implementation, possible higher resource requirements, and their own(or associates) hotspots being falsely on the list.
Right, except that nearly all validator owners run the stock release with the stock config, and nearly all (in my small sample set of ones I have talked with) do want to do what is right for the network. I would bet laziness with opt-out gets you over 99% of the way there.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yeah a temperature check that the idea of committee + validator based deny list is the right mechanism
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:54 PM
I can get on board with that - for what that's worth 😄 I guess it actually makes a lot of sense to answer the yes/no question first and then move forward to the granular detail with some confidence in fruition.
partyparrot 1
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captainhindsight
I can get on board with that - for what that's worth 😄 I guess it actually makes a lot of sense to answer the yes/no question first and then move forward to the granular detail with some confidence in fruition.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:55 PM
Yep!
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krby
Right, except that nearly all validator owners run the stock release with the stock config, and nearly all (in my small sample set of ones I have talked with) do want to do what is right for the network. I would bet laziness with opt-out gets you over 99% of the way there.
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:55 PM
My gut feel is that you're right.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:55 PM
Like if we went ahead it could be written in the goals of the committee to research and outline how big of an issue gaming is
15:56
Then develop methods to detect and automate detection and gaming so we can mitigate the attack, provide feedback to patch it and then remove the bans once it's been done
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Then develop methods to detect and automate detection and gaming so we can mitigate the attack, provide feedback to patch it and then remove the bans once it's been done
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:57 PM
Completely agree 👍
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I have a question @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io , what would be your idea about the committee's work? They would work in a independent way by searching for gaming accounts? Would have any mechanism for community to inform about suspicious accounts so the committee can analyse them?
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I do not understand why this update is destroying my life and because it lengthens the life of the hackers, I put in the app what I have as an antenna and it invalidates me, this is normal in a city where you depend on other people, but in a city where the 30 hotspots that there are are my installations and all with direct vision and on rooftops? someone can help me because I'm getting desperate, especially when I see that the farms are still happily stealing hnt from our pockets. I think there is no need for a HIP or consensus or justice when someone steals from thousands of people who supported the project from the beginning and chose to do it right like me.
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krby
Right, except that nearly all validator owners run the stock release with the stock config, and nearly all (in my small sample set of ones I have talked with) do want to do what is right for the network. I would bet laziness with opt-out gets you over 99% of the way there.
Not overriding the configuration doesn't mean that they wouldn't do it when it would make them more money. It could be from not being necessary to update the configuration
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Jorgehsmp
I have a question @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io , what would be your idea about the committee's work? They would work in a independent way by searching for gaming accounts? Would have any mechanism for community to inform about suspicious accounts so the committee can analyse them?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 3:58 PM
Yeah the committee is independent and can choose what to seek out, I think for example with the recent clusters, the community frustrations clear, so that could be taken onboard as a sign to investigate them
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speedracer
Not overriding the configuration doesn't mean that they wouldn't do it when it would make them more money. It could be from not being necessary to update the configuration
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 3:58 PM
How would it make them (validators, presumably) more money?
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captainhindsight
How would it make them (validators, presumably) more money?
I gave reasons why in my initial posting...such as if a bug exists in the implementation that would cause penalties and kick them out of the consensus group. Why take the risk, just ignore the deny list. (edited)
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Jorgehsmp
I have a question @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io , what would be your idea about the committee's work? They would work in a independent way by searching for gaming accounts? Would have any mechanism for community to inform about suspicious accounts so the committee can analyse them?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/21/2021 4:01 PM
I think that's an interesting thought tho, maybe the community could form some sort of fund, if enough funds are raised any clusters could be investigated, it would justify the time at least (just an idea)
16:02
And stop the onslaught of " this one hotspots spoofing by 300m it's gaming"
16:03
Whilst still allowing community submission
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Can be a good option
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speedracer
I gave reasons why in my initial posting...such as if a bug exists in the implementation that would cause penalties and kick them out of the consensus group. Why take the risk, just ignore the deny list. (edited)
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 4:05 PM
Okay - so the risk there is the potential to lose rewards by implementing the ban list, rather than an opportunity to increase rewards above the norm by not implementing it. It's a case of avoiding a potential disadvantage rather than gaining an advantage. Same coin, different sides. (edited)
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captainhindsight
Okay - so the risk there is the potential to lose rewards by implementing the ban list, rather than an opportunity to increase rewards above the norm by not implementing it. It's a case of avoiding a potential disadvantage rather than gaining an advantage. Same coin, different sides. (edited)
The issue at hand is the requirement that validator owners cooperate and the assumption that they will for the greater good. What typically occurs is they won't cooperate.
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speedracer
The issue at hand is the requirement that validator owners cooperate and the assumption that they will for the greater good. What typically occurs is they won't cooperate.
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 4:06 PM
Typically? That's a strong claim.
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Tragedy of the commons is a good example
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I'm thinking of the reaction of someone who cheats so clearly that it can be seen with the naked eye on the map. I think that when a committee is formed, they are going to move the hotspots to already occupied locations so that it is more difficult to identify them. The problem is that they are going to screw up a lot of users who are doing it well and that as soon as they identify that those hotspots that have been placed on them are fraudulent, they need a way to inform the committee about it.
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speedracer
Tragedy of the commons is a good example
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 4:10 PM
Tragedy of the commons involves adavantage to the individual being greater than the disadvantage suffered by that individual by virtue of the disadvantage having to be shared by the community. In the context of validators alone, there's no advantage to be gained. Nor is there any greater loss to be suffered by node operators than already exists - unless spoofing continues to increase in scale. (edited)
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Jorgehsmp
I'm thinking of the reaction of someone who cheats so clearly that it can be seen with the naked eye on the map. I think that when a committee is formed, they are going to move the hotspots to already occupied locations so that it is more difficult to identify them. The problem is that they are going to screw up a lot of users who are doing it well and that as soon as they identify that those hotspots that have been placed on them are fraudulent, they need a way to inform the committee about it.
But the problem with the existence of a mechanism to report cheats is that it can collapse due to too many requests (true requests, false requests and requests from crying people). Therefore, it would be necessary to limit in some way the free access to these requests so that the cost is borne only by the user who is worth it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I think that's an interesting thought tho, maybe the community could form some sort of fund, if enough funds are raised any clusters could be investigated, it would justify the time at least (just an idea)
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 4:13 PM
You want US to pay to combat spoofers? Aren't we investing enough already?
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speedracer
I gave reasons why in my initial posting...such as if a bug exists in the implementation that would cause penalties and kick them out of the consensus group. Why take the risk, just ignore the deny list. (edited)
Have you been following the validators channel? I don't think you're right about the attitude of most folks there. The source of penalties and bugs possibly causing them is sooooo hard to root cause. It's extremely frustrating. By comparison asking them (me and others) to not opt out of this isn't even on the radar. A significant portion of the validator operators blindly update to the latest docker image automatically. Not all of us, some of us watch closely and apply new updates carefully. But it's surprising to me how many people operate like they want a fire and forget validator. (edited)
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krby
Have you been following the validators channel? I don't think you're right about the attitude of most folks there. The source of penalties and bugs possibly causing them is sooooo hard to root cause. It's extremely frustrating. By comparison asking them (me and others) to not opt out of this isn't even on the radar. A significant portion of the validator operators blindly update to the latest docker image automatically. Not all of us, some of us watch closely and apply new updates carefully. But it's surprising to me how many people operate like they want a fire and forget validator. (edited)
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 4:23 PM
To be fair, following all channels would be way more than a full-time job.
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Right! I'm active in maybe 3-4 channels here. I'm in #validator-ops because I run some. Been active in that "group" since the before launch. That doesn't mean I'm right, but I have a sense for the common attitude I've seen and you have a different take on that. I wanted to know if I was missing something! (edited)
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krby
Right! I'm active in maybe 3-4 channels here. I'm in #validator-ops because I run some. Been active in that "group" since the before launch. That doesn't mean I'm right, but I have a sense for the common attitude I've seen and you have a different take on that. I wanted to know if I was missing something! (edited)
captainhindsight 12/21/2021 4:28 PM
It wasn't a criticism - just a general observation. I usually just about manage to keep up with the Bobcat miner discord - and even then it's by scrolling back one hour when time allows and moving forward until bedtime 😄
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speedracer
The issue at hand is the requirement that validator owners cooperate and the assumption that they will for the greater good. What typically occurs is they won't cooperate.
Typically? On this chain? My experience is that most of validator operators just take the latest docker image and upgrade it automatically with Watchtower. They're not tweaking configs, etc. Now, the larger validator-staking service folks absolutely are tweaking, so maybe a goal of this HIP would be to get the top 3-4 staking providers on board (that should cover at least 1/3-1/2 of the current validator pool.
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captainhindsight 12/21/2021 4:30 PM
I have to sleep guys. Good luck 👍
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krby
Have you been following the validators channel? I don't think you're right about the attitude of most folks there. The source of penalties and bugs possibly causing them is sooooo hard to root cause. It's extremely frustrating. By comparison asking them (me and others) to not opt out of this isn't even on the radar. A significant portion of the validator operators blindly update to the latest docker image automatically. Not all of us, some of us watch closely and apply new updates carefully. But it's surprising to me how many people operate like they want a fire and forget validator. (edited)
The example of the bugs is because all software has bugs. The initial deny list implementation will most like have bugs that will be fixed. Not saying about the quality or anything like that. I don't disagree that a significant portion of the validator operators do what you say and blindly update the docker image and be lazy about changing the default configuration. It is then logical to me that when a problem with the deny list occurs and they are told to update the configuration to remove it that they won't change it back. I can then see people and documentation appear online that says to use a configuration without it. They aren't tweaking their configuration from their perspective. If the requirement is the you need validators to opt-in and the only incentive is to do what's in the best interest of the network, it might not be a viable solution.
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speedracer
The example of the bugs is because all software has bugs. The initial deny list implementation will most like have bugs that will be fixed. Not saying about the quality or anything like that. I don't disagree that a significant portion of the validator operators do what you say and blindly update the docker image and be lazy about changing the default configuration. It is then logical to me that when a problem with the deny list occurs and they are told to update the configuration to remove it that they won't change it back. I can then see people and documentation appear online that says to use a configuration without it. They aren't tweaking their configuration from their perspective. If the requirement is the you need validators to opt-in and the only incentive is to do what's in the best interest of the network, it might not be a viable solution.
Yup, agree. Nearly all people will run the default as is from the Helium builds. Given the questions in #validator-ops , very few read the docs. I think we do opt-out for validators. We could implement the default "use denylist yes/no" as a chainvar (what HIP is complete with a chainvar!?!?) then let local config on a validator override this default.
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krby
Yup, agree. Nearly all people will run the default as is from the Helium builds. Given the questions in #validator-ops , very few read the docs. I think we do opt-out for validators. We could implement the default "use denylist yes/no" as a chainvar (what HIP is complete with a chainvar!?!?) then let local config on a validator override this default.
A chainvar that can be locally overridden is the same thing but implemented different. This is similar to the region override to me. The region needed to be overridden when the DIY hotspots came out. There are still announcements a year later saying please do not override your region since it breaking your hotspot 🙂
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Carl-bot BOT 12/21/2021 5:11 PM
Reminder: Any new DIY will not earn HNT. If you build a DIY packet forwarder today, it will only transfer data on the Helium network. There is no plan to resume the alpha program. If you would like to earn HNT, please visit helium.com/mine.
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speedracer
A chainvar that can be locally overridden is the same thing but implemented different. This is similar to the region override to me. The region needed to be overridden when the DIY hotspots came out. There are still announcements a year later saying please do not override your region since it breaking your hotspot 🙂
Crap, right. I always forget that.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
Max - Just Max 12/21/2021 5:35 PM
Witch hunt HIP. Should I start submitting pictures of every tower install now to save the committee time?
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Vocal super minority
18:24
According to the vote count
18:27
For the voting method on this HIP, do we plan to use the one that favors the whales (number of HNT in wallet) or the one that favors the people? (Number of hotspots per wallet)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Do you support Hip-40 and the idea of a validator deny list? https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0040-validator-denylist.md 👍 Yes 👎 No ♻️ Needs More Work (edited)
i really hope we get to vote on this and get the gamers punished for not providing any benefit to the network, they just get in to grab the hnt. thanks for the contribution to this hip mate and looking forward to this (edited)
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Anunnaaki
For the voting method on this HIP, do we plan to use the one that favors the whales (number of HNT in wallet) or the one that favors the people? (Number of hotspots per wallet)
i wish the voting system would be equal no matter of the hnt in the wallet(that's at least a few months old and has seen some hnt rewards transacted to it) or the number of hotspots owned. once per wallet with the same wight if you have 1 hnt or 100 000 000 hnt (edited)
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K4mikz3
i really hope we get to vote on this and get the gamers punished for not providing any benefit to the network, they just get in to grab the hnt. thanks for the contribution to this hip mate and looking forward to this (edited)
This is one baby step forward. Plenty more to do
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Hans
This is one baby step forward. Plenty more to do
anything as always better than nothing. still hope it will get a final form and be implemented
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Honestly, more of a stopgap solution until something more efficient can be implemented
18:33
in my eyes
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K4mikz3
i wish the voting system would be equal no matter of the hnt in the wallet(that's at least a few months old and has seen some hnt rewards transacted to it) or the number of hotspots owned. once per wallet with the same wight if you have 1 hnt or 100 000 000 hnt (edited)
Would be nice. Voting with HNT qty is akin to just asking a board of directors. Has nothing to do with a peoples network. It can be useful but it would be the wrong method to use in this instance. (edited)
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Anunnaaki
Would be nice. Voting with HNT qty is akin to just asking a board of directors. Has nothing to do with a peoples network. It can be useful but it would be the wrong method to use in this instance. (edited)
i 💯 agree with you. it makes the network look like the whales network instead of people network (edited)
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And in this instance it’s very likely the people gaming/hacking have more HNT than most of the little guys.
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exactly
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So voting by HNT is just giving the cheaters more of a voice
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Let’s try to keep on topic please
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This is on topic
18:38
We are discussing how this very hip will be voted on
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it is on topic
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No that is a completely separate topic on voting mechanisms
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Uh
18:38
So we can’t discuss the way this hip goes from today to implemented?
18:39
Hard to know where the cutoff is where we can’t talk about the hip anymore in the hip channel
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Anunnaaki
So we can’t discuss the way this hip goes from today to implemented?
You can discuss the pros/cons of the HIP all you want
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And not the pros and cons of the voting method chosen to implement this singular hip?
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But discusssing why it’s “whales vs people’s network” is off topic
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Is it not a valid point that people impacted by this hip are likely to have more HNT because they have been earning at a much higher rate than normal all this time? This makes the voting method especially sensitive on this HIP and it should be considered since we are so close to actually voting on the HIP (edited)
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when mods get power they become like little gods. can't talk freely anymore even if talking about how the voting on this hip would be affected by whales with big wallets. i guess welcome to communism in this chat. no free opinion. all right i'm out i can't stand mods with superiority complex. gave a great night guys (edited)
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Anunnaaki
Is it not a valid point that people impacted by this hip are likely to have more HNT because they have been earning at a much higher rate than normal all this time? This makes the voting method especially sensitive on this HIP and it should be considered since we are so close to actually voting on the HIP (edited)
Maybe? Maybe not? Do you know how much HNT has been gamed?
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Radrob
Maybe? Maybe not? Do you know how much HNT has been gamed?
The gamers have a larger voice than I do. That’s for sure. They earn in a day what I could hope to earn in a month (edited)
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Anunnaaki
The gamers have a larger voice than I do. That’s for sure. They earn in a day what I could hope to earn in a month (edited)
It’s a very large network with lots of legitimate high earners. The point is this HIP has nothing to do with the HIP voting process itself and thus discussion for that should be a different channel
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All I was trying to get get at here was simply consideration of the voting method that will reduce the likelihood of the gamers voting it down. Nothing to do with the voting methods used by the other HIPs and initiatives with helium. Very applicable to HIP 40.
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JRex
You got to give them some credit, 640 hotspots. $400*640 = $256,000 (conservative est.) just to buy the miners. even making $15,000/mo runs 17 months to payback just miners. All the other networking equipment and configuration needed as well. Pretty big risk for that long of a play. Lets say you ban them from the system. 15000 dollars divided by 420000 miners = $.03 per miner per month. At ~80,000 miners added in last 30 days the amount of miners will more than likely double in 5 months cutting current rewards in half. This is small money at this scale. Juice ain't worth the squeeze here. Banning hotspots for POC is no bueno from my point of view
640 hotspots cheating one token a day earns more than $700k USD a month. So yes the juice is worth far more than the squeeze. (edited)
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considering this hip applies to validators opting in, what is the straw poll on just validators owners? do they even want to be the helium police?
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Isn’t it an opt-out for validators? (edited)
18:54
The motivation is the future of helium network.
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stranqe
considering this hip applies to validators opting in, what is the straw poll on just validators owners? do they even want to be the helium police?
The validators are not being the police. They will have no interaction with the cheaters. They are merely denying certain rewards due to presence of a record in a list. The committee that puts a hotspot on or off the deny list is being a judge at the discretion of the members (us) as we will tell them the definition of cheating.
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committee = judge. validator = police/jailer
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Police/jailer is not the right metaphor.
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my question wasn't to argue any point. I am actually curious what the validator straw poll is. that is more relavent to this hip in terms of hnt weight during voting and action needed to implement.
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I cant come up with the right one at the moment but it is definitely not police.
18:58
No hotspot is guaranteed any rewards.
18:59
The validators are blessing transactions normally. This deny list will simply block certain blessings.
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KeithR
I cant come up with the right one at the moment but it is definitely not police.
The validator behavior you just described is the definition of policing
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Police deny rights from people that have abused someone else’s rights. This is nothing of the sort.
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Considering it is a definition. You can look it up in a reference such as a dictionary or use Wikipedia
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regardless what you want to call it. DO VALIDATORS want this job?? that was my question
19:04
you're the type of guy who wants to argue about my grammar and not my point.
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Anunnaaki
All I was trying to get get at here was simply consideration of the voting method that will reduce the likelihood of the gamers voting it down. Nothing to do with the voting methods used by the other HIPs and initiatives with helium. Very applicable to HIP 40.
done. i will follow up with a detailed write up. last time i asked the big boss something, not long after my suggestion/request, the "manufacturer approval" got implemented (at that time i was mad that syncrobit was allowed to take orders even if they didn't have fcc certifications in place and were yet to deliver a unit to us 3 months after the promised/approximate delivery date) check #hip-discussion (edited)
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KeithR
I cant come up with the right one at the moment but it is definitely not police.
Angry Pickle Bear 12/21/2021 7:46 PM
Maybe like a restaurant? We reserve the right to refuse service
19:47
Or a bar that has photos of rowdy patrons to not serve on the wall lol
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KeithR
640 hotspots cheating one token a day earns more than $700k USD a month. So yes the juice is worth far more than the squeeze. (edited)
640 x 1 x 30 days = 192,000 HNT being cheated per month (in that example), on a total of 1,6M monthly HNT for hotspots. Still a good point though about the juice (edited)
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When you onboard a hotspot make us upload government ID
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zzeddd
640 x 1 x 30 days = 192,000 HNT being cheated per month (in that example), on a total of 1,6M monthly HNT for hotspots. Still a good point though about the juice (edited)
That's a lot of hnt we are not getting
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K4mikz3
done. i will follow up with a detailed write up. last time i asked the big boss something, not long after my suggestion/request, the "manufacturer approval" got implemented (at that time i was mad that syncrobit was allowed to take orders even if they didn't have fcc certifications in place and were yet to deliver a unit to us 3 months after the promised/approximate delivery date) check #hip-discussion (edited)
That's Helium Inc for ya
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KeithR
640 hotspots cheating one token a day earns more than $700k USD a month. So yes the juice is worth far more than the squeeze. (edited)
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 1:00 AM
yesterday only 321 out of 422,922 hotspots earned more than 1HNT. It is more likely that they are earning 0.1HNT per day along with more the 50% of online hotspots...........
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zzeddd
640 x 1 x 30 days = 192,000 HNT being cheated per month (in that example), on a total of 1,6M monthly HNT for hotspots. Still a good point though about the juice (edited)
640 hotspots earning 1 HNT per day for 30 days = 19,200 HNT per month 👍
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Max03
640 hotspots earning 1 HNT per day for 30 days = 19,200 HNT per month 👍
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:41 AM
Read the message above yours
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it's still 1920 HNT per month.
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Max03
640 hotspots earning 1 HNT per day for 30 days = 19,200 HNT per month 👍
Haha oops, my math was off this morning
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Something has to be done. No question about that.
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As @bigdaveakers stated, not many miners above 1HNT/day. Still it can be several 1000 cheaters earning 0,5 or more per day
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lebo
it's still 1920 HNT per month.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:43 AM
Not everyone earning over 1 is cheating
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Not everyone earning over 1 is cheating
True that
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zzeddd
As @bigdaveakers stated, not many miners above 1HNT/day. Still it can be several 1000 cheaters earning 0,5 or more per day
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:44 AM
Works out roughly to 0.004per hotspot on the network live on the network, if all the 1+ are cheating (edited)
01:44
Not exactly noticeable
01:45
But yes, I would like to have tools to help define this
01:45
That's been my biggest takeaway from this hip
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But yes, I would like to have tools to help define this
Yes data is the key
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:45 AM
With or without this hip
01:46
We need research and definitions on gaming and how bad it is
01:48
The wild statistics about gaming are fun to hear
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The wild statistics about gaming are fun to hear
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:08 AM
Anyone earning more than 0.2HNT per day must be gaming
😆 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We need research and definitions on gaming and how bad it is
well, it's impossible to have perfect patterns and not to cheat - look at China gaming farms.
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bigdaveakers
Anyone earning more than 0.2HNT per day must be gaming
are you serious?
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MaV-CZ
well, it's impossible to have perfect patterns and not to cheat - look at China gaming farms.
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:10 AM
I am pretty sure that you cant say that it is impossible.........unlikely but certainly not impossible.
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MaV-CZ
are you serious?
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:11 AM
No, I was adding my wild statistics!
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What is important is to first create that committee of experts to study in depth the problem (maybe is not such a problem or maybe is a bigger problem than we think....)
02:18
But what is clear is that there are "strange things" that should be investigated and, if proven, banned for the sake of the project's reputation.
02:23
It is funny that a country like Thailand has more mapper data (https://mappers.helium.com/) than a country like China, second country with more hotspots (coincidence? let it be investigated) (edited)
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bigdaveakers
I am pretty sure that you cant say that it is impossible.........unlikely but certainly not impossible.
0.00001% probability when you have perfect pattern in the mountains where there are no roads.
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MaV-CZ
0.00001% probability when you have perfect pattern in the mountains where there are no roads.
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:30 AM
Hey more wild statistics 😂
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bigdaveakers
yesterday only 321 out of 422,922 hotspots earned more than 1HNT. It is more likely that they are earning 0.1HNT per day along with more the 50% of online hotspots...........
My original response was to the comment that payback for the cheaters was 17 months. 17 months is a crock for sure. Those 640 hotspots earning .25 a day only take 4 months to break even. 0.1 a day only takes 10 months. My point is that it is definitely a money maker.
02:32
And since that 640 is only one cheater, it seems pretty clear that the amount of HNT being cheated from us is a much larger amount.
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I'm sure these people are doing business and, in case no one has noticed, hotspots can be sold in the second hand market for more than double their price ... Imagine if these whales buy hundreds of hotspots (at even lower price) leave them mining until they are compensated and then sell them
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KeithR
And since that 640 is only one cheater, it seems pretty clear that the amount of HNT being cheated from us is a much larger amount.
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:36 AM
This is where real data is needed, I didn't look at those 640. I have looked at 6 or 7000 others though
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bigdaveakers
Hey more wild statistics 😂
coolcry
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But as some users say, we need real numbers to know the extent of the problem
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 2:37 AM
do we propose this hip, but put a catch in to define it maybe
02:37
set the process going for the committee,
02:37
do the research
02:37
and then propose hip-40 when we have some stats?
02:38
it would add some delay to having hip40 for use tho
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bigdaveakers
This is where real data is needed, I didn't look at those 640. I have looked at 6 or 7000 others though
I certainly hope that someone has already done some analyses to justify the idea of this HiP. As soon as my ETL is fully sync’d, I will do so myself. There has to be a way to definitively catch these f-ing cheaters with objective data.
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KeithR
I certainly hope that someone has already done some analyses to justify the idea of this HiP. As soon as my ETL is fully sync’d, I will do so myself. There has to be a way to definitively catch these f-ing cheaters with objective data.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 2:39 AM
I've looked at so many
02:39
we all have been
02:40
I researched the top200 or so i think it was
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I've looked at so many
And I assume so, hence my huge support for this HIP.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 2:40 AM
i didnt like what i saw put it that way
02:40
I just knew at the time 200 hotspots (as in none of the clusters people are talking about now)
02:40
was too much work for a committee to work through
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KeithR
I certainly hope that someone has already done some analyses to justify the idea of this HiP. As soon as my ETL is fully sync’d, I will do so myself. There has to be a way to definitively catch these f-ing cheaters with objective data.
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:41 AM
The dewi etl is perfectly functional
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I just knew at the time 200 hotspots (as in none of the clusters people are talking about now)
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:42 AM
200 doesn't really justify the effort, 10000 or 20000 probably does
02:42
So crack on @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 🤪
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bigdaveakers
200 doesn't really justify the effort, 10000 or 20000 probably does
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 2:43 AM
yeah the clusters (if it is gaming) would be easy to hit big numbers
02:44
we did the floor originally for avg earnings = 1 week of earnings for 1 hotspot
02:44
it was 300-400 hotspots
02:44
so we reduced it to 2 weeks and it had 40 hotspots
02:44
now its 0 but
02:44
it's hard to say, how do you select them
02:45
I liked the idea last night that the community could pool to fund an investigation
02:46
I'd throw a hnt or 2 to get the devon cluster looked at
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it's hard to say, how do you select them
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:47 AM
The Pisces ones stand out like a very sore thing with a very special reason to be sore! There are around 7000 that are suspect on the basis that the wallet has 20 or more hotspots and that they are asserted in Europe in clusters with erroneous IP addresses
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I liked the idea last night that the community could pool to fund an investigation
yeah,I think that could prevent the committee's mailbox from collapsing with false complaints (or crybabies denouncing that someone has put a hotspot on them and they believe that it does not exist)
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I highly suspect that someone is packet forwarding traffic from Palmdale and repeating it in Los Angeles. I have hotspots that are being witnessed from 134km away over a mountain range. “Line of sight” apparently means seeing a hotspot 1.3km below the horizon after it goes up and over some steep foothills.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'd throw a hnt or 2 to get the devon cluster looked at
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:47 AM
Who do we know that lives down that neck of the woods?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 2:48 AM
but theres no trust in their findings thats the main issue, who's to say they wont go there and get a bribe
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bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:48 AM
Also may need to tread on military ground
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but theres no trust in their findings thats the main issue, who's to say they wont go there and get a bribe
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 2:48 AM
You trust me, I trust you.....road trip?
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This HIP can't be perfect from scratch and that does not cover all possibilities. But there are plenty of striking examples, such as a perfect patterns in the middle of nowhere. I just did a cursory inspection and here is one of the many examples. It is very unlikely that this device is witnessing 70km away, but none in the adjacent hexes. And witnessing mainly devices settled in perfect patterns. The question is rather by what mechanism to detect these anomalies with certainty. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and then propose hip-40 when we have some stats?
anyway, if the committee investigates and proves that it is not a big problem in the overall network (by providing data) but identifies people who are blatantly cheating... will they be allowed to continue cheating until a solution is found that can be automated with code?
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Jorgehsmp
anyway, if the committee investigates and proves that it is not a big problem in the overall network (by providing data) but identifies people who are blatantly cheating... will they be allowed to continue cheating until a solution is found that can be automated with code?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 3:26 AM
its however we want it to be
03:27
if we want to do something quick tho, we need some vaugeness to how this is done right? if we want to stop some bigger examples of suspected gaming we need the committee in place and the code for hip40, i half think this should be two hips, one for the security committee and one for hip 40 itself
03:27
Its so tough
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I think it is important that this committee exists and can act decisively even if the problem is not out of control (as long as, as we have said a thousand times, the evidence is clear and the suspects are allowed to defended themselfs) (edited)
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first think first - most of these cheaters don't have even set hotspot height and antenna - this should be mandatory for all. Until this remain "blank" then all witnesses should be invalid for example.
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This committee must be made up of professional personnel and must be able to work with freedom and autonomy to be able to identify not only those farms, but also the techniques currently used by those people and new techniques that are beginning to be used. In this way, information will be available for future updates that propose the implementation of code that automatically detects and penalizes these techniques.
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MaV-CZ
first think first - most of these cheaters don't have even set hotspot height and antenna - this should be mandatory for all. Until this remain "blank" then all witnesses should be invalid for example.
There are many legit owners that don’t set their height or antenna gain, as they don’t know they should. Call it whatever you like, blind ignorance, whatever, but with that approach you risk cutting off lots of valid users/hotspots.
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bigdaveakers
You trust me, I trust you.....road trip?
On xmas day I'm off to Maidstone - so I will see if I can take a long swing by the ones nr Isle of Sheppey
👍 1
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I think the better idea was to look for perfect patterns with asserted locations that don’t seem to match their public IP data.
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Mineority
I think the better idea was to look for perfect patterns with asserted locations that don’t seem to match their public IP data.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 3:40 AM
ok so we have that right now
03:40
for some clusters
03:40
whats the next step
03:40
how do we prove it (edited)
03:40
remembering we cant trust mappers data
03:41
and how do we get something in place to stop it
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Mineority
There are many legit owners that don’t set their height or antenna gain, as they don’t know they should. Call it whatever you like, blind ignorance, whatever, but with that approach you risk cutting off lots of valid users/hotspots.
I know, but this is the tool how to bring PoC v11 more accurate and it could also help. You can't drive car without a registration plate so why not earnings without height and antenna set?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and how do we get something in place to stop it
But thats something that I think is has not have to be defined by the HIP... those experts are the one that have to study the cases and define what is a suspicious account
03:45
Making it all public only makes the bad guys 4 steps ahead of the rest
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MaV-CZ
I know, but this is the tool how to bring PoC v11 more accurate and it could also help. You can't drive car without a registration plate so why not earnings without height and antenna set?
The problem is how to enforce that registration. PoC v11 made some steps towards that. Maybe further app tweaks play a part, where you have to change the default values before being allowed to proceed with registration. Antenna height and gain do not provide anything useful when determining location. However, if the App hooked in to GPS on the phone it could be used to ensure that the asserted location is actually the same place as the phone? (edited)
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I mean, if we make it a clear and essential rule that the location on the map is suspicious and has beautiful shapes, they will have it as easy as moving all their hotspots to already covered areas and camouflaging themselves in them. (edited)
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03:50
Perhaps it is necessary to define that the cases can be made public to avoid injustices, if that is the fear of the people
03:51
And thus make transparent the work of the committee (edited)
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As far as I’m aware the App doesn’t hook in to GPS? Rather it uses mapping data and centres on a hex when location is chosen? So why not validate that chosen location by checking it against actual GPS positioning? If they don’t match you cannot register the hotspot. (edited)
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Mineority
As far as I’m aware the App doesn’t hook in to GPS? Rather it uses mapping data and centres on a hex when location is chosen? So why not validate that chosen location by checking it against actual GPS positioning? If they don’t match you cannot register the hotspot. (edited)
GPS data can be emulated easily
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Is there a way to spoof GPS location🤔.. was just typing that. (edited)
03:54
I mean you actually have to see the satellites to assert location… but how secure is that transaction?
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but anyway, any proposal to add measures to prevent cheating is something for another future HIP
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True…and you will never close the door completely, rather just make it harder for the spoofers to get through.
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In this hip we are discussing the creation of a committee and a denylist to fight cheaters (again I repeat, a committee will not investigate you for having moved 100m your hotspot , that's what PoCv11 is for) (edited)
03:59
the committee will investigate clear gaming techniques and act if proven
04:00
Also, the committee will obtain with its studies the necessary data to be able to apply future proposals through code in an automated way
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Completely agree, but you need to think about how the system is currently being circumvented in order to determine how best they are exposed and dealt with. There is a weakness in the current system that makes dealing with them much more difficult. Perhaps the committee should be put together once further measures are taken to restrict this practice. Right now you are struggling to define what’s considered “good” and what’s considered “bad”.
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I believe that without a detailed study it cannot be defined what is considered good and what is considered bad
04:04
and that this study should be done by prepared people
04:05
Not by us in a brainstorming without having studied the cases in depth (edited)
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Everything I’ve seen so far is considered “suspicious”… no one can say for certain. So perhaps tightening the controls first is the way to go. It would reduce the workload of the committee and allow them narrow in on a much smaller subset of devices.
04:07
I should point out I’m just thinking this through as we chat. I’m not defending one approach over another. All should be considered of course.
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Mineority
The problem is how to enforce that registration. PoC v11 made some steps towards that. Maybe further app tweaks play a part, where you have to change the default values before being allowed to proceed with registration. Antenna height and gain do not provide anything useful when determining location. However, if the App hooked in to GPS on the phone it could be used to ensure that the asserted location is actually the same place as the phone? (edited)
Phone GPS prove anything and lot of people are using ISPs for their miners setup. For example I have one of my spot on 210m height on the chimney but physically can't be there as I'm not allowed to enter the factory where chimney is. I must pay climber to do that and sat miles away when it was set.
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MaV-CZ
Phone GPS prove anything and lot of people are using ISPs for their miners setup. For example I have one of my spot on 210m height on the chimney but physically can't be there as I'm not allowed to enter the factory where chimney is. I must pay climber to do that and sat miles away when it was set.
It does if you cannot register the hotspot without GPS data corresponding to the chosen Hex. (edited)
04:32
Part of the current problem is the App is too flexible. It should not allow you to assert a hotspot in a location that you are not present. But it does…and this helps open the door to spoofers. (edited)
👍 1
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Again, thats part of other proposals
04:49
Here, in summary, the creation of a group made up of professionals is proposed to investigate suspicious gaming practices and act by banning those accounts if it is proven that cheating has been done.
04:50
Any other proposal on how to limit or hinder gaming practices must be detailed in another HIP
04:54
Again, as always, said group is not going to investigate you for having moved your hotspot to another hexagon, that's what PoCv11 is for. What the committee will investigate are the farms that pretend to be in a position and are not affected by PoCv11 because there is no communication with the outside that could invalidate the beacons of those hotspots
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Deleted User 12/22/2021 5:08 AM
How do we see top hotspots earner, by country or region or overall? Thanks
05:09
Sorry wrong channel
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Deleted User
How do we see top hotspots earner, by country or region or overall? Thanks
Deleted User 12/22/2021 5:25 AM
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Good morning to the community. I voted “needs more work” and wanted to provide some feedback. I am supportive of the general idea and the new clusters in Europe with Chinese IPs need to be dealt with quickly for the overall health and reputation of the network, but this seems like a major compromise for a “decentralized” project to take the power to zero out hotspots when it decides to put you on a list. As a result I think some important questions need to be addressed. Is this intended to be a temporary stopgap measure so the network can deal with big negative issues quickly while a more permanent solution in the form of a HIP is created or is this list going to be a permanent solution for a broad range of issues? Who gets this power? I’d like to understand more about the makeup of the committee and how members will be added / removed. Are the committee meetings going to be transparent with open public discussions and meeting minutes, or will it occur behind closed doors? Will it create broad policy that results in any hotspot meeting certain thresholds being added to the list, or does it look at individual hotspots (or individual clusters) on a case by case basis? Will the owner of that hotspot be notified and have a chance to participate in a discussion? What happens when legit setups get caught up in it, and how long does the list last for and how does one get off the list? I am sure others in this group will identify other questions. Thank you. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
remembering we cant trust mappers data
Maybe an app or something added to Helium app that allows users to record observations or even take photographs of installations? Records GPS data, and instead of relying on 1 source (as people mention bribes/spoofing coordinates etc...), make it so 1 verifications = pinch of salt, and 2 verifications a little more etc... Also means that it's not only mappers that can get involved, but the whole community. (edited)
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Jerotire
Maybe an app or something added to Helium app that allows users to record observations or even take photographs of installations? Records GPS data, and instead of relying on 1 source (as people mention bribes/spoofing coordinates etc...), make it so 1 verifications = pinch of salt, and 2 verifications a little more etc... Also means that it's not only mappers that can get involved, but the whole community. (edited)
Hmm, but then what stops an adversary from buying a few devices or getting a few mates round... 😄
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Jorgehsmp
Also, the committee will obtain with its studies the necessary data to be able to apply future proposals through code in an automated way
wandering soul 12/22/2021 7:23 AM
Despite the fact that it is the first thing they want you to do to be compliant, there was nothing left in the POC11 rollout to address this. Having a faceless committee create a blacklist is troubling, especially after reading one fervent supporter’s rant in which he is literally stalking locations. Folks stick their antennas inside or in their attics all the time, which are not visible. Having folks banging on doors makes me want to use the 100m location wiggle room more, not less. It’s a simple safety issue, and probably why the Explorer map went to just showing miners centered within every hex. I too am frustrated by the obvious cheaters, the perfectly and symmetrically placed clusters that defy reason, and the ones who mint 10-100 HNT a day with no witnesses. That is a larger network issue they need to resolve, not a bunch of angry villagers with pitchforks and torches. I vote no.
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its however we want it to be
wandering soul 12/22/2021 7:26 AM
And that in itself is troubling. This easily becomes more of a weapon than a tool. If you need vagueness to get this passed, that is a bad thing.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 7:26 AM
I can understand that
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pl
Good morning to the community. I voted “needs more work” and wanted to provide some feedback. I am supportive of the general idea and the new clusters in Europe with Chinese IPs need to be dealt with quickly for the overall health and reputation of the network, but this seems like a major compromise for a “decentralized” project to take the power to zero out hotspots when it decides to put you on a list. As a result I think some important questions need to be addressed. Is this intended to be a temporary stopgap measure so the network can deal with big negative issues quickly while a more permanent solution in the form of a HIP is created or is this list going to be a permanent solution for a broad range of issues? Who gets this power? I’d like to understand more about the makeup of the committee and how members will be added / removed. Are the committee meetings going to be transparent with open public discussions and meeting minutes, or will it occur behind closed doors? Will it create broad policy that results in any hotspot meeting certain thresholds being added to the list, or does it look at individual hotspots (or individual clusters) on a case by case basis? Will the owner of that hotspot be notified and have a chance to participate in a discussion? What happens when legit setups get caught up in it, and how long does the list last for and how does one get off the list? I am sure others in this group will identify other questions. Thank you. (edited)
wandering soul 12/22/2021 7:26 AM
Well said. 🙏🏻
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 7:26 AM
its more that its such an evolving thing we're trying to target
07:27
i think if we can get the basics out we can evolve over time
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pl
Good morning to the community. I voted “needs more work” and wanted to provide some feedback. I am supportive of the general idea and the new clusters in Europe with Chinese IPs need to be dealt with quickly for the overall health and reputation of the network, but this seems like a major compromise for a “decentralized” project to take the power to zero out hotspots when it decides to put you on a list. As a result I think some important questions need to be addressed. Is this intended to be a temporary stopgap measure so the network can deal with big negative issues quickly while a more permanent solution in the form of a HIP is created or is this list going to be a permanent solution for a broad range of issues? Who gets this power? I’d like to understand more about the makeup of the committee and how members will be added / removed. Are the committee meetings going to be transparent with open public discussions and meeting minutes, or will it occur behind closed doors? Will it create broad policy that results in any hotspot meeting certain thresholds being added to the list, or does it look at individual hotspots (or individual clusters) on a case by case basis? Will the owner of that hotspot be notified and have a chance to participate in a discussion? What happens when legit setups get caught up in it, and how long does the list last for and how does one get off the list? I am sure others in this group will identify other questions. Thank you. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 7:27 AM
many of those questions have already been answered, please have a scroll here
07:27
this is not for all gaming
07:28
and currently not aimed for the community to be able to report anything
07:28
this is only for the worst offenders
banhammer 1
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when the vote coming?
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There is a pinned straw poll vote.
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I have seen it, it won already, when the official one?
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Bm3To
I have seen it, it won already, when the official one?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 8:21 AM
When everyone's happy with the definitions
08:21
Based on this it looks like people want it so now comes the hard part, defining all the processes
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Has the 'slippery slope' of denying things other than hotspot earnings been discussed? Wallets of scammers? Transactions to known scamming wallets? Demands from nation states to block miners? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 8:58 AM
yeah, nothing touching wallets, centralised control of funds is not something we want to touch right?
👍🏻 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yeah, nothing touching wallets, centralised control of funds is not something we want to touch right?
bigdaveakers 12/22/2021 9:03 AM
That is for the feds 🚔
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Based on this it looks like people want it so now comes the hard part, defining all the processes
Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 10:29 AM
Straw poll seems to have been heavily influenced by some Reddit posts that also witch hunted obvious non-gamers, calling Emrit wallets “obvious spoofers”
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That's a 1/3 of the reddit posts
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Max - Just Max
Straw poll seems to have been heavily influenced by some Reddit posts that also witch hunted obvious non-gamers, calling Emrit wallets “obvious spoofers”
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 11:08 AM
good job this isnt the final vote then
11:08
they all are allowed opinions tho
11:09
its clear the ideas of this hip should be worked out at least, to me
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Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 11:09 AM
Yes, I'm very much in the "needs work" camp
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 11:09 AM
me too
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It feels like this HIP should really only boil down to “do we want a committee in place to investigate egregious gaming?” And “do we want a denylist that can be used by Validators?” IMO the committee should be the group to define the rules and process, not the HIP. Similar to MOC
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11:13
That’s why I voted Yes here
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Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 11:14 AM
I think its important to define what the committee has power over
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Max - Just Max
I think its important to define what the committee has power over
The creation and updating of the denylist. What falls into the deny list is what they decide is egregious gaming. You are right that those specifics need to be called out in the HIP directly before official vote
11:20
I think the committee should be responsible for defining gaming, investigating gaming, working with Helium to develop anti-gaming mechanisms, and maintaining the deny list.
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Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 11:31 AM
Who gets penalized? ie if a gamer decides to use a hosting company's hotspots to game, does the entire wallet of legitimate hotspots less 1 or 2 gamers get penalized?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 11:31 AM
Just that hotspot
11:31
It would still have activity, just everything would be invalid with reason deny
11:32
This hip won't touch wallets or funds in any way
11:32
Just the invalidation of poc
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Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 11:32 AM
And then what is the process for getting removed from the list if incorrectly placed on the list
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Max - Just Max
And then what is the process for getting removed from the list if incorrectly placed on the list
That’s what the committee would decide imo
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Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 11:35 AM
I consistently have hotspots in the 10-12x the average range, sometimes hitting that magic number of 14x to be suspicious of. Numbers tend to trend towards my multiple increasing. I should probably get the committee on speed dial
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I'd like to provide a Weighty Opinion here. We have a blockchain here and blockchains provide something special that the world is just catching on to: the ability to rapidly route, record and operate on data in a decentralized manner. Blockchains literally are super human. They're beyond human, and to keep them that way, we need to be absolutely careful we don't inject our slow, lazy, irrational, messy, petty, picky, confused selves back into the equation. The rest of the world is watching us too, and they will have a different opinion of Helium should we adopt a universal, centralized blocklist. Remember that we are competing against other blockchains. I am ok with adopting a mechanism for a blocklist, but I'm not ok pushing a centralization of it. I would like to see this HIP simply be an agreement to adopt these changes: * A change to PoC Witness and Beacon receipts such that a validator can vote such a transaction as blocked. * A change to the consensus model such that voting for a transaction to be blocked is not counted as a validator penalty. * An API developed for the Validator such that a validator owner can direct the validator where and how to fetch its blocklists (plural). And that's it. With the changes above adopted, we can organically grow lists of various kinds, and every participant in the validator group can choose whether or not to subscribe. We can develop a thriving ecosystem where blocklist maintainers might even receive subscription fees for their services. The Validators, as stakeholders in the value of the token, really should have enough incentive to decide, ad hoc, what blocklists they believe are well maintained and fair. Having any structure beyond this, however, doesn't sit right with me.
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jerm
I'd like to provide a Weighty Opinion here. We have a blockchain here and blockchains provide something special that the world is just catching on to: the ability to rapidly route, record and operate on data in a decentralized manner. Blockchains literally are super human. They're beyond human, and to keep them that way, we need to be absolutely careful we don't inject our slow, lazy, irrational, messy, petty, picky, confused selves back into the equation. The rest of the world is watching us too, and they will have a different opinion of Helium should we adopt a universal, centralized blocklist. Remember that we are competing against other blockchains. I am ok with adopting a mechanism for a blocklist, but I'm not ok pushing a centralization of it. I would like to see this HIP simply be an agreement to adopt these changes: * A change to PoC Witness and Beacon receipts such that a validator can vote such a transaction as blocked. * A change to the consensus model such that voting for a transaction to be blocked is not counted as a validator penalty. * An API developed for the Validator such that a validator owner can direct the validator where and how to fetch its blocklists (plural). And that's it. With the changes above adopted, we can organically grow lists of various kinds, and every participant in the validator group can choose whether or not to subscribe. We can develop a thriving ecosystem where blocklist maintainers might even receive subscription fees for their services. The Validators, as stakeholders in the value of the token, really should have enough incentive to decide, ad hoc, what blocklists they believe are well maintained and fair. Having any structure beyond this, however, doesn't sit right with me.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:07 PM
Until we have a trustless system to stop cheaters, we need this "panic button", with yes, humans involved. Wishing for a perfect system doesn't help us now.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Until we have a trustless system to stop cheaters, we need this "panic button", with yes, humans involved. Wishing for a perfect system doesn't help us now.
With a non-mandatory system above, we can have a stop button. It's just not centralized.
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jerm
With a non-mandatory system above, we can have a stop button. It's just not centralized.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:09 PM
It's already non-mandatory. The creation of the list is by necessity centralized though. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's already non-mandatory. The creation of the list is by necessity centralized though. (edited)
The proposal is to have one list: not necessary. The proposal is to have the list be adopted by default: not necessary.
12:12
There are people who can be excellent data wranglers for this purpose. And they have to be compensated, somehow, so that they can take their excellent skills and time in weeding out these clusters. Having competing lists and owners is an excellent way to create a market for this. Maybe some groups will just be excellent on their own and publish for the sheer joy of it.
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jerm
The proposal is to have one list: not necessary. The proposal is to have the list be adopted by default: not necessary.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:12 PM
Making it opt in makes this a pointless exercise.
12:13
Introducing a bunch of friction to the process makes the whole thing doa (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Making it opt in makes this a pointless exercise.
I disagree. The people who have staked validators are intensely interested, because of the lock up time, in the continued value of the system. They want spoofed/cheating coverage to be shut down too.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Introducing a bunch of friction to the process makes the whole thing doa (edited)
introducing mandatory centralization into a blockchain is death.
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jerm
I disagree. The people who have staked validators are intensely interested, because of the lock up time, in the continued value of the system. They want spoofed/cheating coverage to be shut down too.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:14 PM
They don't care.
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jerm
introducing mandatory centralization into a blockchain is death.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:14 PM
It's not mandatory
12:14
The validators can opt out at any time.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The validators can opt out at any time.
can they opt in to a different list?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:15 PM
And frankly, they could do all of this already. If they actually cared, they would have. But here we are.
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jerm
can they opt in to a different list?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:15 PM
Yes as I understand it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And frankly, they could do all of this already. If they actually cared, they would have. But here we are.
they cannot. Doing so now would incur CG penalties. Thus, I am describing the technical changes that must be made at the core, first. Refusing to honor a transaction in the HBBFT system is considered a fault and will be punished.
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jerm
they cannot. Doing so now would incur CG penalties. Thus, I am describing the technical changes that must be made at the core, first. Refusing to honor a transaction in the HBBFT system is considered a fault and will be punished.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:17 PM
Then why does Neil keep saying they can?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then why does Neil keep saying they can?
It's an oversight?
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12:18
Neil is here to champion the idea. He's has said, several times, that there are details which have to be established at the core to make this happen and has deferred to the core developers to work on those parts. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:19 PM
Until you can program a cheat check, humans have to be involved. No way around it.
12:20
And again, people seem to keep missing the point. This is not for all cheating. It's only for the "meerkats" of the system.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Until you can program a cheat check, humans have to be involved. No way around it.
We're talking about different things. I agree that humans have to be involved. I just don't think having a single list is right. Let's stick to making the censoring of some transactions possible and make it easy for Validators to subscribe to lists.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And frankly, they could do all of this already. If they actually cared, they would have. But here we are.
What?
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jerm
We're talking about different things. I agree that humans have to be involved. I just don't think having a single list is right. Let's stick to making the censoring of some transactions possible and make it easy for Validators to subscribe to lists.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:21 PM
I thought that was already part of the idea?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I thought that was already part of the idea?
The idea is several ideas in one. I just want to break them apart and make it simpler.
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usurper
What?
Preach, please.
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jerm
The idea is several ideas in one. I just want to break them apart and make it simpler.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:23 PM
Having one list is not centralized when the way the list is made and used is decentralized.
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You answered it already. I was questioning large assumptions about "validators not caring" or "they can do this already". Both of which are pretty untrue.
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usurper
You answered it already. I was questioning large assumptions about "validators not caring" or "they can do this already". Both of which are pretty untrue.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:24 PM
I thought Neil knew what he was talking about.
12:24
My bad
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And considering DeWi is pretty much the largest validator operator with 25%+, there's some alignment.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I thought Neil knew what he was talking about.
He's a great guy and knows many aspects of the system! But he did extend a little bit when he said it was already possible. Heck, I may even have made statements to this effect long ago, and he could be paraphrasing me.
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jerm
He's a great guy and knows many aspects of the system! But he did extend a little bit when he said it was already possible. Heck, I may even have made statements to this effect long ago, and he could be paraphrasing me.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:25 PM
Fair enough :)
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The whole consensus idea is pretty much engineered around this not happening.
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But I now know quite a bit more about the innards here and HBBFT gets right at the matter.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:25 PM
"HBBFT"?
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The Honey Badger of Byzantine Fault Tolerant (Protocols).
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Honey Badger Byzantine Fault Tolerance.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:27 PM
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Fact one: we are proposing a transaction censorship system. Fact two: BFT protocols are designed to be censorship resistant. Unstoppable force meets immovable object. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:28 PM
I'll have to dig into this to understand the interactions
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Yes. The paper that describes the protocol we use in the Helium Consensus Groups literally has the words, "Honey badger don't care". Like John Gilmore's infamous quote: "The 'net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.", HBBFT does the same.
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12:29
(or was that Tim May?)
12:30
So our first step here is to find a way to keep HBBFT semantics and yet allow for validators to disagree on just a few items without getting punished.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:31 PM
How is that not the same problem if validators get punished for disagreeing? That's no different that the one list.
12:32
What's the point if they're just rubber stamping transactions?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
How is that not the same problem if validators get punished for disagreeing? That's no different that the one list.
It's different because agreement or disagreement is not dependent on there being One List On Which We All Agree.
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The HIP doesn't say that now, does it?
12:33
Validators will use the committee list by default which is set in the config file of the validator. Validators can add other lists here or opt out by removing the default list url.
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usurper
The HIP doesn't say that now, does it?
it's confused. And I think the confusion is hurting any attempt to come to consensus with this HIP.
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Default list. Add more. Remove the default.
12:33
Sounds like choice.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
He's agreeing with you, not me.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
The line above mine. The One List on Which...
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usurper
The line above mine. The One List on Which...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:34 PM
Yeah, just saw that :)
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Much of what's talked about here is about forming The Committee. That's the part that is troublesome.
12:35
Can we just stick to the technical part that needs to be adopted, and let the lists and their management grow out of this?
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jerm
Much of what's talked about here is about forming The Committee. That's the part that is troublesome.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:35 PM
How else would you make the list?
12:36
Oh hey Neil :)
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usurper
Default list. Add more. Remove the default.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:36 PM
I thought it was add/remove any lists from the config file
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
How else would you make the list?
I have several criteria that I can use to find big cheatnets. I publish my criteria and my public key. I encourage adoption of my list and hang out a sign saying so.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:36 PM
maybe i missed something
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If it gets popular, I might even hire foot mappers.
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jerm
I have several criteria that I can use to find big cheatnets. I publish my criteria and my public key. I encourage adoption of my list and hang out a sign saying so.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:37 PM
Then we have 100s of lists, no consensus, and no action
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I thought it was add/remove any lists from the config file
Yup, agreeing with you.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then we have 100s of lists, no consensus, and no action
This is a theory.
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usurper
Yup, agreeing with you.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:38 PM
ah ok, long day (edited)
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jerm
I have several criteria that I can use to find big cheatnets. I publish my criteria and my public key. I encourage adoption of my list and hang out a sign saying so.
Submit your criteria or your list to the committee and they could be added to THE list
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derek
Submit your criteria or your list to the committee and they could be added to THE list
if they choose to adopt it. Let's not have a THE list.
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This HIP is proposing the governance over a complicated problem without a) clearly articulating the problem, b) providing examples or c) sizing the problem or d) talking about the challenges in solving the problem. I'd really be good to have an outline of the above, with some real data that backs up the severity of the problem and the ability to actually find new gaming areas/owners/hotspots.
12:40
From there, maybe the governance then flows?
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if we do this right, the blocklist becomes a continuous function. If 50% of the staked community believes your hotspots are not providing coverage, your earnings are reduced 50%. It's not an all-or-nothing scheme
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usurper
This HIP is proposing the governance over a complicated problem without a) clearly articulating the problem, b) providing examples or c) sizing the problem or d) talking about the challenges in solving the problem. I'd really be good to have an outline of the above, with some real data that backs up the severity of the problem and the ability to actually find new gaming areas/owners/hotspots.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:40 PM
there is no data right now, the committee sort of needs to be setup to outline the issue
12:40
or
12:40
the community does it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:41 PM
QQ: Does each validator have to agree on the whole list, our just that a hotspot is on a list? I.e. List a and list b both have the same hotspot. Would the transaction be denied?
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If there's genuine network consensus, then your block becomes generally 100%
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
QQ: Does each validator have to agree on the whole list, our just that a hotspot is on a list? I.e. List a and list b both have the same hotspot. Would the transaction be denied?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:41 PM
just that there is a record for a deny for that address
12:41
not that the lists are the same
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12:41
the pull process was explained to me in that
12:42
you would fetch them 1 or 2 times daily , merge them into one big deny file
12:42
depending on what lists you choose to subscribe to
12:42
if at all
12:42
(all automatically)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
not that the lists are the same
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:42 PM
Ok, then many lists can still function. That helps. :)
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I am ok as long as there is the capability to have more than one list, and the adoption is at the validator level, and that HBBFT issues allow for the magic that we're inventing here. That's all.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:44 PM
Yep with you totally, I will spend tomorrow making sure that's understood
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12:45
At any time any validator could add another list in the config
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If this HIP is narrowed down to just these technical parts, it becomes understandable and passable with a hopefully large YES vote. One way to kill a HIP is to make it complicated.
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12:45
Then you don't even need to adopt a HIP to form the DeWi comitee.
12:45
The committee forms on its own. If validators are impressed, they sign on. Or not.
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jerm
Then you don't even need to adopt a HIP to form the DeWi comitee.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:46 PM
I think something like this without a HIP would cause a massive backlash
12:47
You saw the shit hit the fan over just limiting the valid range of poc. ;)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I think something like this without a HIP would cause a massive backlash
I think the threat of backlash is already getting in the way of the technical legwork that can be done first.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:48 PM
Yep
12:48
Everyone wants it defined within an inch of its life
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jerm
I think the threat of backlash is already getting in the way of the technical legwork that can be done first.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:48 PM
There has been some muddying of the waters, sure, but still better to involve the community in this. :) (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:49 PM
We'll why don't we strip the committee out of it and create a room on discord to talk about it
12:49
Then leave this hip as just the technicals
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:49 PM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Might be good to pin a FAQ on this based on the questions I was seeing you answer over and over the last couple days :)
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jerm
they cannot. Doing so now would incur CG penalties. Thus, I am describing the technical changes that must be made at the core, first. Refusing to honor a transaction in the HBBFT system is considered a fault and will be punished.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:51 PM
Can't they deny access to submit transactions tho?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We'll why don't we strip the committee out of it and create a room on discord to talk about it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:51 PM
I don't know... I don't foresee lists being made otherwise
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:51 PM
Maybe that's where I was getting the idea from
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Can't they deny access to submit transactions tho?
They can't. If the transaction is gossiped to even a single other validator, it slips into the hidden queue, preventing even the original "censor" from attempting to censor it.
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12:52
HBBFT things.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:52 PM
So if validators in the lgw form when there doing challenge creation
12:52
They could block the outbound challenge right?
12:53
It's been said a few times to me they could deny access, I'm not sure who by now 😆
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They could block the outbound challenge right?
as currently codes, there are checks and balances in the system to prevent this abhorrent behavior. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's been said a few times to me they could deny access, I'm not sure who by now 😆
I said this earlier: it may have been a past version of me. 😂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:54 PM
Dropping all the knowledge bombs on me today, thanks lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We'll why don't we strip the committee out of it and create a room on discord to talk about it
Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 12:54 PM
RoUgH cHiLi BiRd gEtS tOo MaNy ReWaRdS
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Dropping all the knowledge bombs on me today, thanks lol
it's ok. I'm not here to shoot anything down. It's a discussion and I am always finding pieces of shoe strangely stuck between my teeth when I later read what I have wrote. 🤣 (Edit: and spelling! ARRRRG) (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:57 PM
So I take this hip, I strip it down to the technicals, we leave out the committee , does the code go live before the first list is created? Opt in?
12:58
Opt in seems more decentralised to me at least
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So I take this hip, I strip it down to the technicals, we leave out the committee , does the code go live before the first list is created? Opt in?
It's my thought, but it's your HIP. Let me sit on it and read what I said in 12 hours.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:58 PM
But from my understanding from the validators they want opt out as they are lazy
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So I take this hip, I strip it down to the technicals, we leave out the committee , does the code go live before the first list is created? Opt in?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 12:59 PM
So who will do the work to investigate the hotspots?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But from my understanding from the validators they want opt out as they are lazy
Validators are the one super power in our current system. They have a lot staked, literally.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 12:59 PM
And if opt in comes with bugs, they are unlikely to do anything that could* cause a penality (edited)
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If validators aren't interested in a proposal, then they're irrational, in which case, uh oh.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:00 PM
We just have to hope for adoption , I think that's the best way
13:00
Remembering stake pools will be able to turn on large numbers
13:00
If they agree to it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We just have to hope for adoption , I think that's the best way
It's a powerful community. Many validators will go with the flow, there will be leaders who advocate certain things, for usre.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 1:00 PM
Opt out vs opt in is a well know issue. Opt in means this is doa. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Opt out vs opt in is a well know issue. Opt in means this is doa. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:01 PM
I'd hope not, validators can be seen as the biggest believers of the network
13:01
They want to see it succeed
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Opt out vs opt in is a well know issue. Opt in means this is doa. (edited)
this isn't necessarily so. Forgive me for dropping a cred bomb on you, but have you hung out in the #validator-ops channel?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:02 PM
They've put at least a 5 month bet on it that they want it to do well, I'd say they care enough to implement it
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there are large validator operators who can help cajole the lazy ones.
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jerm
this isn't necessarily so. Forgive me for dropping a cred bomb on you, but have you hung out in the #validator-ops channel?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 1:02 PM
I'll forgive ya this time. Lol No, I do not hang out there. :) (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'll forgive ya this time. Lol No, I do not hang out there. :) (edited)
@usurper is often there, so that's why I said, "PREACH!"
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/22/2021 1:03 PM
Ok so we strip out committee and then I think we setup a poc committee room anyone interested can see and participate with that formation
13:03
Leave this hip to the technical tool they aim to publish a list for
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jerm
there are large validator operators who can help cajole the lazy ones.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 1:03 PM
From what I've seen, you have to punish a lot just to get them to do the work.
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I do have other things I should be doing, so my peace-out message for the day is: I would love for there to be a way to adopt blocklists! We need them for stop gap measures, for sure. I just want to mix in the chaos of consensus and decentralization.
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13:05
and take my word for it, as someone who's already on a committee 🤣
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you had a quizzical look when I talked about the "hidden queue". It was a jermism. Apologies. But the real implementation in HBBFT is similar. At the start of a round, all the validators exchange encrypted transactions, almost like a sealed envelope full of proposals. Then everyone opens their envelopes and reads the proposals. Through the magic of cryptography everyone else in the group can prove that everyone has received their envelope. Thus, you can't deny that you didn't "see" a transaction later on. Any attempts to refuse the envelope label you as a miscreant. Any disagreement about the envelope contents also labels you as a miscreant. Thus, the "censorship-resistance" is enforced.
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jerm
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you had a quizzical look when I talked about the "hidden queue". It was a jermism. Apologies. But the real implementation in HBBFT is similar. At the start of a round, all the validators exchange encrypted transactions, almost like a sealed envelope full of proposals. Then everyone opens their envelopes and reads the proposals. Through the magic of cryptography everyone else in the group can prove that everyone has received their envelope. Thus, you can't deny that you didn't "see" a transaction later on. Any attempts to refuse the envelope label you as a miscreant. Any disagreement about the envelope contents also labels you as a miscreant. Thus, the "censorship-resistance" is enforced.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 1:27 PM
Oh no.. That emoji is just "hmmm.. Pondering what was just said" :)
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Also, on opt-in versus opt-out, I guess either is ok. It's not a huge deal.
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13:33
it's Optics.
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jerm
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped you had a quizzical look when I talked about the "hidden queue". It was a jermism. Apologies. But the real implementation in HBBFT is similar. At the start of a round, all the validators exchange encrypted transactions, almost like a sealed envelope full of proposals. Then everyone opens their envelopes and reads the proposals. Through the magic of cryptography everyone else in the group can prove that everyone has received their envelope. Thus, you can't deny that you didn't "see" a transaction later on. Any attempts to refuse the envelope label you as a miscreant. Any disagreement about the envelope contents also labels you as a miscreant. Thus, the "censorship-resistance" is enforced.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:16 PM
So again, if anyone that disagrees with the proposal is punished, what's the point? They're just rubber stamping transactions, right? I feel like there is something critical I'm missing here. 😅
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So again, if anyone that disagrees with the proposal is punished, what's the point? They're just rubber stamping transactions, right? I feel like there is something critical I'm missing here. 😅
That's the issue that needs to be fixed before any blocklist is adopted. Right now, any attempt to block will be delivered as a penalty.
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jerm
That's the issue that needs to be fixed before any blocklist is adopted. Right now, any attempt to block will be delivered as a penalty.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:19 PM
Is there always a penalty, or just one if you are in the minority of the CG?
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only if you're in the "minority"
14:20
so this creates an incentive to never censor, and thus, the problem.
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jerm
so this creates an incentive to never censor, and thus, the problem.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:21 PM
That's assuming the majority is against the censoring
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jerm
so this creates an incentive to never censor, and thus, the problem.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:22 PM
I think this isn't a problem if it's opt-out vs opt-in
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's assuming the majority is against the censoring
yes. But if you think it through, and you're not sure who else is in the group, you best not risk "voicing" your opinion.
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jerm
yes. But if you think it through, and you're not sure who else is in the group, you best not risk "voicing" your opinion.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:23 PM
But with no info, not "voicing" a vote to censor is just as likely to be in the minority
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Let me put it this way: say we have two democracies, one in which being a member of the minority results in JAIL TIME, and the other is simply, "sorry, we're going with the majority, but you're not in prison.", which would be better?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:25 PM
Prisoner's dilemma
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:26 PM
But this is different. You have to vote. You can't remain silent, right? (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But this is different. You have to vote. You can't remain silent, right? (edited)
correct. You have to vote. Not voting is considered censorship.
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jerm
correct. You have to vote. Not voting is considered censorship.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:27 PM
Right... So it's like trying to call heads or tails while the coin is in the air. It's an even shot either way.
14:27
Since you're forced to guess, there is no incentive either way (edited)
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We want to promote a system that has you voice your own opinion, not one in which you have to try to guess the opinions of others first.
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jerm
We want to promote a system that has you voice your own opinion, not one in which you have to try to guess the opinions of others first.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:30 PM
without collusion, I don't see a way
14:31
The choice matrix is even. There is no advantage to either choice, so best to choose your own opinion.
14:33
This HIP is for clear egregious cheaters, so you simply have to trust that other validators haven't opted-out
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
without collusion, I don't see a way
I'm telling you that the system built right now forces the latter. You can't express an opinion about a hotspot without consequences. If you do express an opinion and it's not in line with the others in your group, the protocol requires that you be punished.
14:34
That choice matrix creates perverse incentives.
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jerm
I'm telling you that the system built right now forces the latter. You can't express an opinion about a hotspot without consequences. If you do express an opinion and it's not in line with the others in your group, the protocol requires that you be punished.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:35 PM
Yes... but if the opinion of the others agree, you are not punished
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes... but if the opinion of the others agree, you are not punished
this is true yet it doesn't address the problem of being in the minority. That has long term effects that are bad.
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Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 2:36 PM
Is there a different mechanism we aren’t thinking of?
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Max - Just Max
Is there a different mechanism we aren’t thinking of?
Yes, it's the mechanism in place right now. We're not thinking about it, apparently.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:37 PM
If you are in the minority, so what? You get punished. That's the system. Again, there is is no preference in choice to either side. The matrix is a 50/50 split
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you are in the minority, so what? You get punished. That's the system. Again, there is is no preference in choice to either side. The matrix is a 50/50 split
Why are you settling for this very brute system? Why can't we solve it to eliminate the penalty?
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jerm
Why are you settling for this very brute system? Why can't we solve it to eliminate the penalty?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:39 PM
Because that's that system. It's supposed to punish the minority, right? It's the whole point.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because that's that system. It's supposed to punish the minority, right? It's the whole point.
I'm telling you that we can CHANGE it.
14:39
If we change it, it makes this process work.
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jerm
I'm telling you that we can CHANGE it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:39 PM
Then you're changing the entire system you were just defending. lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then you're changing the entire system you were just defending. lol
I think you misunderstand what I was saying.
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jerm
I think you misunderstand what I was saying.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:40 PM
Seems so. 😄
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This HIP needs to address the current system at the technical level.
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jerm
This HIP needs to address the current system at the technical level.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:41 PM
Why? Why can't it conform to the system already in place?
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If you adopt the HIP and don't adopt the changes at the lower layer, you incentivize a system that will never get off the ground.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why? Why can't it conform to the system already in place?
The current system will interpret any vote "outside the norm" as a punishable act.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:41 PM
As you explained, they system punished those that try to disrupt the majority, right?
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jerm
The current system will interpret any vote "outside the norm" as a punishable act.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:42 PM
Right. What is wrong with that?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As you explained, they system punished those that try to disrupt the majority, right?
"Disrupt" and "disagree" are the same thing in the current system. Let's make a system which distinguishes between the two.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:43 PM
If the majority says a hotspot is not cheating, then it is not. If the majority says it is, then it is. If you disagree, you get punished. (edited)
14:43
No different from the rest of the system (edited)
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As a rational actor, which world would you rather live in? Ever vote in an election for a candidate who lost? Enjoy going to jail for that choice?
14:44
It's called "agree to disagree", not "agree or die".
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jerm
As a rational actor, which world would you rather live in? Ever vote in an election for a candidate who lost? Enjoy going to jail for that choice?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:44 PM
Then why have the punishment system for validators at all?
14:45
Just go with the majority and get rid of the punishment all together
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Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 2:45 PM
Jeremy couldn’t hear the question on hacks because he was arguing with Elon. 😂
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Max - Just Max
Jeremy couldn’t hear the question on hacks because he was arguing with Elon. 😂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 2:45 PM
Doh! Sorry 😅
14:46
Forgot that was going on right now 🙂
14:50
Funny timing... I just got an email about it. lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then why have the punishment system for validators at all?
* The punishment system helps prevent blockchain stalls: underperforming validators are a serious issue. * The punishment system helps prevent the censorship of other transactions, like PAYMENTS. * The punishment system helps prevent deliberate interference with the consensus process, which is necessary to overcome denial of service attacks.
15:18
It may be that the math actually tells us that this banlist is a bad idea. Dynamic distributed systems are very difficult to keep stable.
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jerm
* The punishment system helps prevent blockchain stalls: underperforming validators are a serious issue. * The punishment system helps prevent the censorship of other transactions, like PAYMENTS. * The punishment system helps prevent deliberate interference with the consensus process, which is necessary to overcome denial of service attacks.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 3:35 PM
So why can't it be applied here also? Stops validators from helping cheater hotspots.
15:36
We need either a carrot or a stick, and I'm being told we have no carrots... 😉
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jerm
* The punishment system helps prevent blockchain stalls: underperforming validators are a serious issue. * The punishment system helps prevent the censorship of other transactions, like PAYMENTS. * The punishment system helps prevent deliberate interference with the consensus process, which is necessary to overcome denial of service attacks.
Max - Just Max 12/22/2021 3:39 PM
All things more important that stoping gamers using this method
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Max - Just Max
All things more important that stoping gamers using this method
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 3:42 PM
It's not a "this or that" situation
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Yeah this I can get behind, the more we can do to oust cheaters and gamers the better and more secure the people networks can be
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jerm
* The punishment system helps prevent blockchain stalls: underperforming validators are a serious issue. * The punishment system helps prevent the censorship of other transactions, like PAYMENTS. * The punishment system helps prevent deliberate interference with the consensus process, which is necessary to overcome denial of service attacks.
The punishment system helps prevent blockchain stalls: underperforming validators are a serious issue.
If only the performance based penalties provided a clear signal to operators of a thing to fix. At this point it's just "oh, ya, you'll get perf penalties sometimes, it happens"
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krby
The punishment system helps prevent blockchain stalls: underperforming validators are a serious issue.
If only the performance based penalties provided a clear signal to operators of a thing to fix. At this point it's just "oh, ya, you'll get perf penalties sometimes, it happens"
So you’re saying that the performance penalties aren’t doing their job? They’re not ejecting consistently bad performers from the group and, conversely, consistently bad performers are staying in CGs longer than good performers? Or is your complaint that performance penalties happen here and there? (edited)
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jerm
So you’re saying that the performance penalties aren’t doing their job? They’re not ejecting consistently bad performers from the group and, conversely, consistently bad performers are staying in CGs longer than good performers? Or is your complaint that performance penalties happen here and there? (edited)
I'm sure they are doing their job on the very bad cases, but I think they're not providing clear signal to the average operators to get to "good".
17:05
In recent single CG run, this happens: I pick up 0.5 perf penalties (so 5 of 0.1 each) in a single CG, but none in the previous 7 CGs of this run. What do I fix? disk? networking? cpu? ram? On this same validator a CG run last week got no penalties. If any of those things wasn't sufficient, why no penalties before?
17:07
Actually, I guess I'm ignoring malicious operators, and just concentrating on the signal to non-malicious folks doing OK, but want enough signal to do better. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you are in the minority, so what? You get punished. That's the system. Again, there is is no preference in choice to either side. The matrix is a 50/50 split
This is a very bad idea. You are promoting a system which punishes voters. This punishment has very far reaching effects, including preventing you from voting again. A system in which any minority is not just ignored, but punished and/or prevented from voting again is very dangerous. If this doesn't make you uncomfortable, then I urge you to study history, and if that doesn't bug you, then I urge anyone else reading this to take notice. This is as close as I dare comment on the matter without triggering Mike Godwin's famous Internet "Law" on the matter. We've already acknowledged that injecting human decisions into this algorithm is fraught with danger and will always have an element of error to it. If you build a system in which the minority can be punished and ousted, it will find fixed attraction points that disturb you. Example: Roko's Basilisk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut-zGHLAVLI
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jerm
This is a very bad idea. You are promoting a system which punishes voters. This punishment has very far reaching effects, including preventing you from voting again. A system in which any minority is not just ignored, but punished and/or prevented from voting again is very dangerous. If this doesn't make you uncomfortable, then I urge you to study history, and if that doesn't bug you, then I urge anyone else reading this to take notice. This is as close as I dare comment on the matter without triggering Mike Godwin's famous Internet "Law" on the matter. We've already acknowledged that injecting human decisions into this algorithm is fraught with danger and will always have an element of error to it. If you build a system in which the minority can be punished and ousted, it will find fixed attraction points that disturb you. Example: Roko's Basilisk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut-zGHLAVLI
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 7:41 PM
The whole validator system punishes those that vote against the majority...
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jerm
This is a very bad idea. You are promoting a system which punishes voters. This punishment has very far reaching effects, including preventing you from voting again. A system in which any minority is not just ignored, but punished and/or prevented from voting again is very dangerous. If this doesn't make you uncomfortable, then I urge you to study history, and if that doesn't bug you, then I urge anyone else reading this to take notice. This is as close as I dare comment on the matter without triggering Mike Godwin's famous Internet "Law" on the matter. We've already acknowledged that injecting human decisions into this algorithm is fraught with danger and will always have an element of error to it. If you build a system in which the minority can be punished and ousted, it will find fixed attraction points that disturb you. Example: Roko's Basilisk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut-zGHLAVLI
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 7:42 PM
Whoa now.. Godwin? Really? I see your analogy, but that's apples and hand grenades. Let's step back here...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The whole validator system punishes those that vote against the majority...
which is why, without altering any algorithms, this HIP is dead in the water.
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jerm
which is why, without altering any algorithms, this HIP is dead in the water.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 7:43 PM
If the system is bad for this HIP, then it's bad for Validators completely.
19:44
I am also familiar with the Basilisk. One of my fav YT channels. 🙂
19:46
The current system already forces compliance with threat of punishment. This is no different.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The current system already forces compliance with threat of punishment. This is no different.
This proposal pretends to give validators a choice in the blocklist(s). It's not a choice if it comes with an existential threat of punishment.
20:08
The current Consensus Group system discourages dissent in any form. It is not suitable for voting. We have to fix that part. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 9:39 PM
It discourages letting obvious cheaters slide. It works the same way as the rest of the system for validators.
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jerm
* The punishment system helps prevent blockchain stalls: underperforming validators are a serious issue. * The punishment system helps prevent the censorship of other transactions, like PAYMENTS. * The punishment system helps prevent deliberate interference with the consensus process, which is necessary to overcome denial of service attacks.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/22/2021 9:40 PM
You can literally add it to this list
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1. gaming. Cheaters. in short term cases, I believe, there could be a multi-signatory group, that can decide against short range sanctions against those that are obviously gaming if and when they are found by the community. sanctions. not banning. as these people own hotspots and we would like to see those hotspots used correctly, we should be able to turn the tides, make it easier for them to play by the rules than to game. 2. medium term. a short term situation like that should lead to an immediate technical discussion on what they are doing, how they are doing it and how to counter act them. this could lead to source code and changes to PoC, rewards, or else where. 3. long term. it should be part and parcel of the system. The core PoC takes care of it. Gaming is not a separate issue in my eyes to coverage. Prooving coverage, should be possible and take into account the methods by which, people are gaming and there could possibly be a sub branch of the main miner branch that deals with this. Validator. I wont want to see more HNT fall our of our hands into the hands of the few for the long term. I believe, technically speaking, we should keep it off the validator. I never liked the validator idea to begin with but its here now. Maybe, another component. Like a 'Sentinal'. Sentinals could be out there checking for gaming on the network. Even the data cost of scanning multiple hotspots from the validtor persective isn't nice, much cheaper, more rewarding and accurate if hotspots could take the time to do some scans, or a user at home, had some componet they could use, or something, that could be put in the hand of regular users to set up as vpns. Sentinals, could be rewarded the HNT that is rewarded to users under sanction under normal circumstances?
22:09
There should be open discussion on how people are gaming too
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Hey everyone. I'm very new around here so I don't presume to know shit about shit, but been reading this topic and have some thoughts - The committee should be removed from the HIP, but there should still be a committee. In the same way that Helium originally did the reference hardware for hotspots the "OG" committee can be formed and provide a reference list. A list, not THE list. Other lists will follow if... - There needs to be an incentive to maintain a list. Sure, the greater good of the system is an incentive, but let's be honest here. There needs to be an HNT reward for maintaining a list. One possibility is the list is rewarded based on the number of validators that subscribe to it. I have no suggestion on where this HNT comes from. - I liken this to an IDS/IPS system. There are many signature databases out there, and OEM's subscribe to the services that "best" identify threats. They want their product to provide the "best" value to their customers. But, of course, this introduces the possibility that list maintainers provide incentives to the Validators to subscribe to their list. Kickbacks being the obvious incentive. More thought is needed to ensure the "good" lists are the preferred list, not the "richest" lists.
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NoCo
1. gaming. Cheaters. in short term cases, I believe, there could be a multi-signatory group, that can decide against short range sanctions against those that are obviously gaming if and when they are found by the community. sanctions. not banning. as these people own hotspots and we would like to see those hotspots used correctly, we should be able to turn the tides, make it easier for them to play by the rules than to game. 2. medium term. a short term situation like that should lead to an immediate technical discussion on what they are doing, how they are doing it and how to counter act them. this could lead to source code and changes to PoC, rewards, or else where. 3. long term. it should be part and parcel of the system. The core PoC takes care of it. Gaming is not a separate issue in my eyes to coverage. Prooving coverage, should be possible and take into account the methods by which, people are gaming and there could possibly be a sub branch of the main miner branch that deals with this. Validator. I wont want to see more HNT fall our of our hands into the hands of the few for the long term. I believe, technically speaking, we should keep it off the validator. I never liked the validator idea to begin with but its here now. Maybe, another component. Like a 'Sentinal'. Sentinals could be out there checking for gaming on the network. Even the data cost of scanning multiple hotspots from the validtor persective isn't nice, much cheaper, more rewarding and accurate if hotspots could take the time to do some scans, or a user at home, had some componet they could use, or something, that could be put in the hand of regular users to set up as vpns. Sentinals, could be rewarded the HNT that is rewarded to users under sanction under normal circumstances?
The detection of gamers should be decoupled from this HIP. I like the idea that this HIP lays the groundwork for lists to be created, but how those lists are created is up to the organization that maintains that list.
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There is a list of tactits ppl use that can be technically taken out of it, made not possible. keeping a list of them will just become a nightmare as they move hotspots between accounts or ip addresses and doesn't solve the fundamental issue
22:11
but we do rely on the community to find them. and software
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jdsilva
The detection of gamers should be decoupled from this HIP. I like the idea that this HIP lays the groundwork for lists to be created, but how those lists are created is up to the organization that maintains that list.
I agree, but only in so far, as gamers and providing coverage is the same thing. gamers just provide the worst coverage and end up getting loads of rewards. the methods they use, many of them, especially the less knoweldable, can be taken out through technical means. if decisions are made, some perhaps opinionated. as to the purpose and kind of vpn's and restrictions used can catch many
22:13
some forms of gaming though, are too, intrusive, or decouple our ability to detect them
22:14
messing with hardware directly for example
22:14
and we should rely on a community for that
22:14
so I see a progression
22:14
as things get discovered, they move from 1 to 2 to 3
22:14
stages
22:14
Short term quick fix. Medium term tech discussion and attemps to fix. Long term. Fixed
22:14
and those we can't make the deny list
22:14
but I can send a hotspot from one account to another. or would we ban hotspots?
22:14
\make them useless?
22:15
i feel, someone who makes a mistake and gets on the list, might change his mind later
22:15
is there other reasons to have a deny list i am not aware of?
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Well, there are RF testing rigs where you directly connect the RF interface into something like a butler matrix for analysis. No actual RF ever hits the air. Gamers could totally be using a closed system like that to take advantage of the system.
22:16
agreed
22:16
but a vpn from from country x to country y is another
22:16
that is one way. a whitelist. deny list. boolean, true, false
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that's just the p2p side. it has nothing to do with poc
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which is why, i believe it should be a number from 0.00 to 1.00 as to how much 'trust' we have in him and they should have some way to fix this trust level so they can be part of poc better. in some fasion
22:17
if i am making sense
22:17
ya
22:17
i understand. but proof of coverage means, i am proving I AM at X location
22:17
right now I can easily fake that but i can easily detect it too
22:17
inside fortware, there is no provision for that
22:17
so a list of gaming methods needs to be made
22:17
explored technically
22:17
and opened up. not not talked about
22:17
and then fixed
22:17
so we need a 'anti exploit team?'?
22:17
or softrware to do the same
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Yeh you're talking about detection methods. Which is a great conversation. And can be done is a lot of ways.
22:18
but i dont think, all of them will work
22:18
and i dont know where it should exist
22:18
miner. validator. sentinal
22:18
something else
22:18
on chain. off chain
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and for how long will a method work?
22:18
forever
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it's a changing landscape
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you keep iterating
22:18
yes that is exatly my point
22:18
my method fixes that
22:19
1. Short term always new gaming methods are discovered. This is your deny list. 2. Medium term we explore it as it comes to light. And try implement a fix to stop it. 3. If it works we have a fix or a partial fix for longterm and can still rely on 1, the deny list, ,for worst offenders
22:19
rince and repeat forever
22:19
3 will be gotten around
22:19
so we start at 1 again
22:19
and its is forever
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haha right?
22:19
lol
22:19
but that is agile
22:19
that is the way of things
22:19
no different than UI developer
22:19
or UX
22:19
or regular software development
22:20
agile methodology for example. CI/CD
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I'm still on the IDS/IPS analogy.
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unit testing. functional testing. integration testing
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but same shit
22:20
probably we are on same page different language sand slightlty different approaches
22:20
i was gonna do a new hip but reading this i can i can weigh in and im working on a tool or two to throw out some data. just chiming in so I can begin to watch this thread and see what others general consensus is atm
22:21
and what barriers exist, technically, and politically, to doing it
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I think this HIP sounds like the enforcement piece of it. But there's still the detection piece, and then the long term fix piece.
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i dont see any hips that detect it though
22:21
so I may do another yet
22:22
i guess the enforcement, if we have any, does need to be agreeded upon first
22:22
right now there is none i think
22:22
just the reward scaling etc
22:22
poc11
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detection needs to be decentalized. Any entity can publish a list of what they think is offside. It's up to the Validators to subscribe to that list though.
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yes. agreed on that
22:22
and in fact, decentralized i think makes it easier
22:23
i dont think validators should do it though
22:23
at least, in so far, as those who run the valiudators, have any say as to items on that list
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No, validators shouldn't detect, they should subscribe.
22:23
gotchya
22:24
i think then the best that this hip can ask for is not what should happen, but, that validators should 'subscribe' and there should be 'enforcement' but the implementation of it lest to other hips
22:26
ie: once we decide if we should act. (this hip) then we decide how to act (another hip?) as I feel, it should be abroader discussion involved a few areas. and technically, we have not even set up a force or method by which we should find those to be added to the white list or what infractions cause it
22:28
i think AI could even help us here and statistical analyys
22:28
we have great examples of good networks
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Sure. This HIP can't be a panacea for everything. The title is Validator deny list, which I think is a valid title, and goal. It should lay out the frame work for how a list is consumed by a validator, but it should probably stop and how lists are created (a la committees). Anyone should be freely able to create a list to which the validators can subscribe. And how they create those lists are their "secret sauce".
22:28
But I like the idea that the first committee, a reference committee is created as a result of this HIP.
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>>>It should lay out the frame work for how a list is consumed by a validator a. stop at how the list is created b. stop on what infraction should accour c. stop at if it should effect rewards or not. open hips for the specific nature of each
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22:29
i do like that too. but then we need another hip to bring it out of that
22:29
(which is fine)
22:30
Info Author(s): @BFGNeil, @anthonyra, @elontusk Start Date: 2021-09-27 Category: Technical, Economic Original HIP PR: #284 Tracking Issue: #285 (this) Status: In Discussion Rendered view https://gi...
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Yup, I like the way you think @NoCo . Now, can we convince everyone else? Haha!
22:31
No. I just got into looking at this tonight and it got me interested. I have A TON more reading to do. I will totally look at that. (edited)
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same. im in early stages. i was gonna write a new hip, orginally, but after reading all the hips, talking to people, I'm a bit more humble about it now. even if I talk alot
22:32
Intention of HIP Preferring to only target blatant gaming over forging a path for long-term research into improving/strengthening PoC reward algorithm
22:32
tjat
22:32
if this was the internet task force, we would have regional work groups
22:32
it makes sense. we have validators that are regional
22:33
>>>> validators unanimous or majority? It has to be unanimous, per evan - "recall that our consensus mechanism hides txns from other consensus members so if we want to do denylist filtering, everyone has to agree" I agree with this
22:34
Define process for getting on the list and off the list
22:34
We need a process
22:34
Like an antivirus company. we have researchers
22:34
and something needs to 'make it to testnet' to test it
22:34
then to production
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Yeh looking at Jerm's comments today in this channel I need to look at HBBFT in more detail. The punish the minority thing might not help here.
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if found gaming and your funds were locked and redistributed in some way :p you know. to someone who takes the bounty to find a technical mean to find all doing the same. haha
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for regional problems, a small region disagreeing with the whole world for a legit beef ain't good.
22:36
there needs to be that canary
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but we don't need true consensus. we need general? we dont want a regional fork either (not that it will happen) Examples? Either current or historical Could there be a list of miners to start review from always (eg. X% above the average miner earnings automates a review)? Or other criteria? I think first we need to look at stet 1
22:36
is there a technical tool that can be written to demonstrate the techniques used to find these abuses
22:37
as it might, serve as the foundation, to drive the decision for this hip as to 'do it or not' Intention of HIP Preferring to only target blatant gaming over forging a path for long-term research into improving/strengthening PoC reward algorithm in order to reach that charter
22:37
we must demonstrate that technically we have a way to do it
22:37
do we leave it to helium to figure out? or write some oursleves
22:37
to figure out a deny list
22:38
or if one is even possible to figure out
22:38
then, we could each contribubte to that. suggest what methods people are using to cheat and game the system and reach out for methods of counter acting it
22:38
(later)
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Well right now I like this HIP's intention. It seems like a good starting point. How it evolves is yet to be seen. And there will need to be more that follow.
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ie: i could write some code that would scan each hotspot, a simple nmap would reveal alot. a geolocate. and present that information
22:39
ya
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baby steps
22:39
can't bite off too much all at once
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i think though that any solution should try to turn the tied. a deny list should have a way to 'get off it' and perhaps, not a deny list, but more, a 'santion list'
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22:41
brb in bit. gotta go on errand
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@jdsilva @NoCo thanks for sharing your discussion here.
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Likewise @jerm. Your comments made me think about this a little differently than I originally did. This is a very interesting topic.
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I'm very curious when I read "deal with obvious gaming and spoofing situations." Sorry if I'm not up on the terminology. But can someone tell me what is "gaming" and what is "spoofing" to the strictest definitions?
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Who can guarantee that their machines will not be sanctioned? Any way to improve the signal, antenna, network and income can be regarded as cheating, right? Who can guarantee that others will not even involve their own machines in cheating? Who has so much power to sanction the machine and release the machine? Is this decentralization?
22:20
If the sanctioned machine is sold to others, will it be unfair to others?
22:23
At present, there are still many unsolved problems in the network and blockchain. Many machines can't function normally. At this time, it's better to solve the network of the project itself so that all brands can function normally. It's a pile of problems every day.
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Yeah I think this is a very dangerous path to go down. And completely violates what cryptocurrency is all about.
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Yes let's just do nothing and allow miners like this to take a lot of rewards. Good plan! /s https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112j3WWEUACFcv35bKm8GBBNTWespMLwP2eFz1SBzjJkiJDJBHPA
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Hart
Who can guarantee that their machines will not be sanctioned? Any way to improve the signal, antenna, network and income can be regarded as cheating, right? Who can guarantee that others will not even involve their own machines in cheating? Who has so much power to sanction the machine and release the machine? Is this decentralization?
Who can stop the Chinese mining farms and their spoofing? Is a more important question
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konton
I'm very curious when I read "deal with obvious gaming and spoofing situations." Sorry if I'm not up on the terminology. But can someone tell me what is "gaming" and what is "spoofing" to the strictest definitions?
Gaming the network is like cheating Spoofing means you set location A on the Helium explorer, but in reality your miner is on location B (often far away). Location spoofing it's called. You can then generate more revenue in location A
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NoCo
ie: i could write some code that would scan each hotspot, a simple nmap would reveal alot. a geolocate. and present that information
Good ideas and discussion!
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zzeddd
Yes let's just do nothing and allow miners like this to take a lot of rewards. Good plan! /s https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112j3WWEUACFcv35bKm8GBBNTWespMLwP2eFz1SBzjJkiJDJBHPA
how can you tell this miner is doing something wrong - because it has no witnesses? how are they seeing so many people without anyone seeing them?
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gtelnet
how can you tell this miner is doing something wrong - because it has no witnesses? how are they seeing so many people without anyone seeing them?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 12/24/2021 11:06 AM
That is one well known cheat, yes.
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gtelnet
how can you tell this miner is doing something wrong - because it has no witnesses? how are they seeing so many people without anyone seeing them?
I thought that happened because you are relayed. How is that cheating when you have no control over it? Not sure I understand how someone makes that happen on purpose and how it helps them in such a way you call it cheating.
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konton
I thought that happened because you are relayed. How is that cheating when you have no control over it? Not sure I understand how someone makes that happen on purpose and how it helps them in such a way you call it cheating.
If the wallet link above is the same person in the video, then the issue is pretty clear. The relay is probably because they are all sharing one wan ip.
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gtelnet
If the wallet link above is the same person in the video, then the issue is pretty clear. The relay is probably because they are all sharing one wan ip.
My bad. I didn’t watch the video.
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konton
My bad. I didn’t watch the video.
not the same as the belgium one total different wallet
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zzeddd
Yes let's just do nothing and allow miners like this to take a lot of rewards. Good plan! /s https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112j3WWEUACFcv35bKm8GBBNTWespMLwP2eFz1SBzjJkiJDJBHPA
Don't understand how lying about his location helps anything other than his TS scale. Does he not still need to physically witness all the beacons that he has been witnessing to earn those rewards?
16:05
but that in and of itself can be judgef
16:05
faked
16:05
or not faked. abused
16:10
there are multiple vectors of attack that people use to 'cheat' or 'game' ranging from highly technical hardware methods, directly interacting or placing something in the middle (like an attentuator) or to messing with packet forwarders, adding multiple antennas, messing with latency. building their own hybrid methods. stuff I dont know about. attacks depend if you have one miner, a few, if you control and area, if you have 50, if you have money to spend, if you dont, if you have the technical hardware knowledge, or not, maybe you use bricks, or materials and do constant checks and adjustments till you are no longer getting invalid becons in your batman cave. not all gamers are successful either, some try, and fail and fail. there is network issues that can fudge things. from VPN's, to issues with tcp/3 and tcp/6, NAT and more, and worse, there not really issues, many have niche viable cases, so can't exactly be counted as cheating (if you were to scan them) and in some parts of the world, what we might define as cheating here is needed there. there is the fact the math is probably not 100% evolevd to what helium will be 5 years for now and so edge cases we dont yet know of. PoC will evolve, as will earnings. density issues. also is it cheating if one guy provides better coverage than 5 guys in his hex and decides to stake in your hex as he can get better rewards than you, nothing to do with helium there. thats a social problem.
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Thank you for the clarification. In the specific case we have been talking about, we have no idea of knowing anything other than he lied about his location.
16:14
It is most likely the only thing he did that we may consider as wrong. (edited)
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zzeddd
Who can stop the Chinese mining farms and their spoofing? Is a more important question
What I mean is that if cheating occurs, it is not necessary to give rewards, or the testimony is invalid, but if the machine is sanctioned and the machine is blocked, who can guarantee that his machine will not be blocked? After all, we also want to obtain more virtual currency, so we will also adjust the signal and choose a better location to place the machine. Is the higher profit in a better location judged as cheating?
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where can i report cheating?
21:14
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Remus
Tagging @tteague on this one. The way I see it, he’s reaping all the rewards from the hard work of all the hotspots around him but he’s not contributing anything since he’s not beaconing. If my understanding is correct, he’s pretty useless in the network because he can’t prove that he’s there and no one can witness him. Plus, he won’t be able to send data packets for iot.
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Hart
What I mean is that if cheating occurs, it is not necessary to give rewards, or the testimony is invalid, but if the machine is sanctioned and the machine is blocked, who can guarantee that his machine will not be blocked? After all, we also want to obtain more virtual currency, so we will also adjust the signal and choose a better location to place the machine. Is the higher profit in a better location judged as cheating?
To answer your last question: no. As NoCo explained very well, there are different ways and indications of cheating, such as 0 witnesses and 2000+ beacons. "Blocking" someone's machine could be a good punishment for a proven cheater or just reducing rewards to 0
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Remus
Thanks for spotting this. It's occuring a lot around the Belgium Netherlands border. And often with more rare brands such as Cotx and Pisces. Maybe their network approval can be reconsidered. As Cotx promised to fight against cheating
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Sultan_Pindakaas
Its not that they are stealing the hnt but more the hexagons, and i am 100% sure they just bought the key and not the offical hotspot.
Shouldn’t we be able to match the number of official hotspots manufactured and onboarded to the number of “devices” claiming rewards?
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We all know that spoofing is a problem and needs to be countered. But I’m afraid people give this HIP a 👍 just based on that premise (hoping their rewards will magically shoot up), without actually thinking through how / if this would work. It doesn’t make sense to combat spoofing with a mechanism that can be hacked or torpedoed itself. Committees investigating, people driving around mapping the network, and most of the other ideas that have been floated are difficult to implement and have a long list of inherent weaknesses and practical issues. Not to mention potentially putting humans in harm’s way. I strongly believe we need an automated, technical solution - like for instance comparing LoRa traffic patterns and background noise across hotspots that claim to be in the same region. The actual LoRa signals traveling through the air should be like an area’s finger print. If you don’t see that finger print, you’re not there.
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Some people use a receiving amplifier , since it is not bidirectional they will not transmit very far , only like 1 km max , the same as if you have no antenna connected
09:46
It is actually cheating and not really good for bidirectional network trafic
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats why we're doing the temperature vote
I’m not sure this is a valid check. It’s like asking “should we address spoofing”, and everyone’s going to agree. “Should we do it with a deny list list”, almost everyone is going to agree - because they think of the first question initially, and there aren’t any alternative options presented.
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Now I had myself a hotspot that did not beacon for 2 weeks
09:47
Always 0 witness
09:47
Untill I rebooted
09:48
Didn't noticed it on my earnings that something was wrong
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
some of that could include boots on the ground mapping from trusted community members, but using that evidence alone can't be done, it cant be trusted
That’s a really bad idea. (1) It’s impossible to cover all areas of the world. (2) They’d have to scan repeatedly to account for hotspot down time. (3) They can’t trespass on private property. (4) If they really find a big-time spoofer in rougher places of the world, people might get hurt. Helium would be dead in the public eye in a heartbeat.
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TXR
That’s a really bad idea. (1) It’s impossible to cover all areas of the world. (2) They’d have to scan repeatedly to account for hotspot down time. (3) They can’t trespass on private property. (4) If they really find a big-time spoofer in rougher places of the world, people might get hurt. Helium would be dead in the public eye in a heartbeat.
I'm still waiting for the first person killed due to helium because he or she fell off the roof (edited)
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Petzl
I'm still waiting for the first person killed due to helium because he or she fell off the roof (edited)
Valid concern.
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I find it funny how much discussion and debating is created because of people who are dishonest and cheat the system
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There are so many issues and holes with this idea. It's Christmas so I'm going to refrain but will come back after to discuss! Short story: nobody is saying we shouldn't have ways to combat gamers/cheaters but I don't believe this is the way. This can take a turn for the worse very easily. Merry Christmas everyone
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I'm glad we're addressing fraudulent hotspot behavior, but I'm not sure that this approach is appropriate, and won't open the door to bigger problems. The actual problem that needs addressing seems to be that the proof-of-coverage algorithm is not sufficiently difficult (or expensive) to cheat. Adding anti-fraud code to validators increases the work on an already-constrained critical component of the network. Right now, we're looking at a simple function to create a blocklist. When that first solution is shown to have exploitable weaknesses, the algorithm will need to be improved. That process of iterative improvement on fraud response will be increasingly expensive (for validators) over time, and will have an unnecessarily heavy impact on overall blockchain performance. Consider this as a loose analogy for the use of AI/ML for anti-impersonation in email, as opposed to just requiring authentication. Improving authentication is, in the long run, less expensive and more elegant/maintainable than building an algorithmic RBL mechanism to respond to fraud.
10:23
We will have better success in combatting fraud by improving the PoC algorithm (and perhaps the reward scaling algorithm) to diminish the financial incentive for fraudulent behavior. Operating a hotspot costs money in the form of electricity, bandwidth, and environmental control. Can we adjust existing algorithms so that fraudulent operators will make more money by selling their hotspots to legitimate users on the second-hand market?
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Lol, you want to avoid bigger problems and start about updating the algoritm.. Sorry but this hip is much more simple than your algoritm plan. If you ensure cheat miners are getting 0 earings (whether via a blacklist or other way), they will be sold for sure. Then a new owner can identify himself and have the blockade lifted (for example)
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@zzeddd I agree that this HIP is simple. However, it represents the beginning of what may be a long line of HIPs for fraud detection. In response to this HIP, fraudulent operators will figure out how to avoid detection via this algorithm. Then the algorithm will require improvement, and those improvements must effectively block bad actors without impacting any legitimate users, and without choking validators. This will become more difficult (and more computationally expensive) over time as fraudulent operators figure out how to hide within the ranks of legitimate users. This back-and-forth exchange will go on until the end of the Helium network, or until the community gets frustrated and gives up. Fraudulent operators are positively incentivized to continue to game an anti-fraud algorithm, and added complexity typically brings more edge cases and conditions to explore. I propose we fix the faulty component instead of adding a layer of unnecessary complexity. As a general rule, abuse prevention (authentication) is less expensive than abuse response (by human or ML/AI mechanisms). (edited)
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Some questions and concerns for everyone to think over: - we need to identify very specifically who this will target and how we define "gamer" or "cheater" - at what point is a hotspot considered a gamer/cheater? - too high earnings? - then how much is too much? over 0.5 HNT/day? 1 HNT/day? 10 HNT/day? - or witness too many beacons? - again how many is too many? 10 beacons/day? 100 beacons/day? 1000? - what about the legit hotspots that also earn this amount or witness that many beacons? - or maybe hotspots witnessing but not beaconing? - but what about legit hotspots where this also happens like when relayed? - beaconing is random and stretches without any is normal so at what point is a hotspot considered "not beaconing" - after 2 days? after week? a month? - or maybe people using a vpn? again plenty of legit hotspots using VPN and many legit reasons to do so - or secluded hotspots only witnessing each other? Could be a cheater or maybe they legitimately cover that area - if we do that would we just end up de-incentivizing unique coverage areas then? (and hinder the real growth of the network) (edited)
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18:38
- - where do we draw the line? - who is going to draw that line? - who is going to say whether a cheater is a actually cheater or legit? - are we going to pay people to drive around and physically check hotspots? That isn't realistic and brings legal issues - and how will we know the people making these decisions don't have a conflict of interest? - or will it be volunteer based? Again same issues as above especially the potential for conflict of interest - if completely automated, again where is the line drawn that we don't wrongfully ban legitimate setups - gamers/cheaters will most likely find a way around automated prevention as they already have - human intervention for proper evaluation would be necessary, but refer to point 5 of this section (conflict of interest) - Side note and direct question for the developers: How much of the total rewards do you suspect is going to gamers/cheaters? - and a question for the community once we get that info: is distributing that amount back to the legitimate hotspots really worth the effort and issues that could come from this? This is not me taking a stand either way. These are questions everyone should be thinking about. My point is to also raise awareness that a lot of these concerns would realistically be impossible to solve and without solving them should this HIP be put forth? I don't know the answer to that, but I do think at this moment, developer time and resources would be better spent elsewhere to improve the network though. Such as witness receipts failing to be submitted to validators to give a specific example. My first point specifically, needs to be established before we can truly discuss the best way to combat this. There is probably more points to discuss but this is a good start. (edited)
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18:44
This doesn't even include territorial differences where "normal" earnings/beacons/witnessing etc can vary massively across different areas. This is another factor that raises more concerns alongside each of the others. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:11 AM
You've just ignored days worth of conversation lol
01:11
And everything this hips outlined so far, please read before launching walls of text here
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FWIW I posted my wall of text after reading the HIP at https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/285
Info Author(s): @BFGNeil, @anthonyra, @elontusk Start Date: 2021-09-27 Category: Technical, Economic Original HIP PR: #284 Tracking Issue: #285 (this) Status: In Discussion Rendered view https://gi...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:20 AM
Have a read up in the conversation :)
01:22
We've outlined this hip should just define the validator deny list itself, usage of lists should be opt in, and the creation of the Dewi PoC committee and generation of the first (and hopefully eventually others) is a seperate things validators can choose to support by using their list (edited)
01:23
It's Christmas so havnt had chance to rewrite yet
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If all that's going into the HIP, I'll track that and respond when it's updated.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:25 AM
Cool :)
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Lol if that is all you have to say then you didn't read the whole "wall of text". I have been keeping up to date with all the conversation here and all details on github. These are still concerns that need more discussion and awareness.
01:42
Yes some of it was repeated but part of the point is that I don't think it will realistically be possible to address some of these issues.
01:42
and I encourage more people to think about them
01:43
before supporting this blindly
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:43 AM
Most of your questions have been answered and some of it covers ideas that are not going to be defined here
01:44
And then some of what you said is talking about this being an automated process, which it's not
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ashd
FWIW I posted my wall of text after reading the HIP at https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/285
Hey what is your username there? I am interested in reading your thoughts
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
And then some of what you said is talking about this being an automated process, which it's not
I didn't say it was going to be automated. In fact the majority of it relates to a manual process. I only speculated on ways it COULD be done and issues with both sides (automatic and manual)
01:46
All just points to spark conversation
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:46 AM
Cool, we won't be defining gaming here or list creation or gaming detection/methods for selection
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Is that not the point of this HIP though? Combat gaming?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:46 AM
It's just going to define the mechanism, a deny list and how it can be used
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Is that not what I have pointed out. (How it can be used)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:47 AM
I meant how a list is updated, not how hotspots are added to it
01:48
That's being pulled from this hip and I'm sure for the first list, will be defined in public seperately
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Oh ok I see what you're saying. Aren't we kind of putting the cart before the horse as they say though. Shouldn't we first decide who will be put on the list and how before implementing the list? (edited)
01:50
its kind of like creating the consequence for breaking the law before even establishing the law..... (edited)
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Parylizer
Oh ok I see what you're saying. Aren't we kind of putting the cart before the horse as they say though. Shouldn't we first decide who will be put on the list and how before implementing the list? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:50 AM
I originally thought both were needed, but it's been made clear (and I get it too) that it's two seperate things right
01:50
Usage, and the mechanism
01:50
The mechanism is totally a hip
01:50
The committee and first list isn't really, but don't think that means it's decided in private
01:51
Just a seperate thing that will be defined in public, and with anybody being able to take part in
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Ok i agree it is two separate things. I think order here is important though. Deciding the target should come first, it might help decide if the mechanism is even needed/desired
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Parylizer
Ok i agree it is two separate things. I think order here is important though. Deciding the target should come first, it might help decide if the mechanism is even needed/desired
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:55 AM
Part of the need is to define the committee right, so we have people that can do the research, define how big of an issue this is, but at the same time if for example a data analytics company produced a DC based gaming map, if you supported that enough you could use it making anything the committee for the first list decided a mute point
01:55
Maybe that list is used and the committee list isn't
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I see your point. And creating a committee for that purpose, to assess the situation first sounds like a great idea and would be a great step. But this isn't a "create a committee" HIP as far as I can tell. This HIP appears to want to go straight to creating the deny list without first assessing, researching etc, like you're saying
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:57 AM
We've had 2 meetings about forming the committee already
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Ok awesome.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:57 AM
I think seperating them into mechanism in this hip, and then discussion with community for the other
01:57
Means we can do both at the same time
01:58
Get the code out ready, and hopefully have something defined that the first list of its kind can released around the same sort of time (edited)
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Fair enough. If I'm understanding you correctly you mean create the mechanism so that it is ready to go if it's decided to be used rather than have more delay at that point to create it. I think it's dangerous to build the mechanism from the start though without the assessment first if that makes sense. Such as is it even necessary, would it benefit the community or do more harm then good etc. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:01 AM
Sure
02:01
I have to say it now, I think this hip is a lot of power, for not much difference to users end earnings
02:02
We're talking all of 0.001 per hotspot on the network
02:02
But
02:02
There's a lot of perception that gaming is allowed, and the "if their doing it why shouldn't I"
02:02
But overall , this hip is way more cost than reward
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I don't want to spread too much of my own opinion, but I agree with those statements 👍
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:04 AM
We haven't had big hacks in a while, something like what caused hip17, I'm conscious we have nothing but hips to help us, and they often take months to solve (edited)
02:04
If we had a big hack, they would likely take months to catch like meerkat
02:05
Here's the meerkat timeline where hip17 stopped it
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Hmmm can you explain more what happened? I don't think i'm familiar with dapper hickory meerkat
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Parylizer
Hmmm can you explain more what happened? I don't think i'm familiar with dapper hickory meerkat
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:07 AM
You used to be able to just stack hotspots in one place
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and how to interpret this graph. Is that rewards earned by a single hotspot?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:07 AM
And transmit scale wasn't a thing
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right
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:08 AM
Hip17 was proposed but took a long time, you can see in green when it was found, when the hip was proposed in yellow and then when the hack stopped
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Ok so the yellow is just when it was proposed but not implemented yet?
👍 1
02:11
at first glance thought yellow was when the HIP was implemented and It looked like rewards got higher 😄
🤣 1
02:11
so basically was about 2 months when it stopped?
02:11
bit more
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:12 AM
Yeah basically
02:12
Like now #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit and #hip-44-witness-reward-decay
02:12
Would both stop a majority of gaming
02:12
But the process just takes a long time
02:13
In the security world @ap points out that usually with a hack, the first step is to mitigate, patch, feedback and then release the deny as such
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Yeah, and personally I think those are great things to focus on rather than this HIP.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:13 AM
This deny is that mitigation untill code can patch
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ehh i'm not sure a straight up ban is a mitigation
02:15
those other hips sound more like mitigation to me
02:15
basically making the gamers less effective before coming up with a more severe way to handle it (deny as you call it at the last step)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:15 AM
Nothings banned forever
02:16
40 is the mitigation untill PoC is updated with those hips code
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Hmm ok. So once you're saying hypothetically anyone who was banned could be unbanned once those other mechanism are put in place.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:18 AM
Yes
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Again seems out of order to me. But I understand that this could be quicker to enact then the others
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:19 AM
And say a new type of hack is found, it can be mitigated, reported , hips can be formed for code to patch and then when enacted , those hotspots could be removed from the list
02:19
And one important bit I missed out on the lastest version, say we're a year down the line and maybe we have something way better at automating all of this, hip40 needs a killswitch
02:20
It's not a power I forsee as a forever thing, just untill we have something better (edited)
02:20
A step forward but not the end goal
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Ok I totally get what you're saying. I still don't think it's the right way to go about this but I understand it in order to be able to act swiftly when it's detected since it can take a while to implement PoC changes to fight it. I guess I'm thinking back to the how part. How we determine the gaming I mean. Some hacks might be easily identifiable but some might not and I could see legitimate hotspot owners getting caught up in this. Maybe something like capping rewards for suspects that are on the list might be more appropriate so those that are accused wrongfully will still earn till its appealed etc. while still hurting the actual gamers to a point where they only earn like a normal user does.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's not a power I forsee as a forever thing, just untill we have something better (edited)
I hope that is the case. Once you have this kind of power.....it is very difficult to let it go lol
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Parylizer
Ok I totally get what you're saying. I still don't think it's the right way to go about this but I understand it in order to be able to act swiftly when it's detected since it can take a while to implement PoC changes to fight it. I guess I'm thinking back to the how part. How we determine the gaming I mean. Some hacks might be easily identifiable but some might not and I could see legitimate hotspot owners getting caught up in this. Maybe something like capping rewards for suspects that are on the list might be more appropriate so those that are accused wrongfully will still earn till its appealed etc. while still hurting the actual gamers to a point where they only earn like a normal user does.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:24 AM
I don't think anything points to gaming on its own
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hence why I'm not sure it is a path we should even begin (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:24 AM
Like right now, you can point out some large clusters that pocv11 has forced to assert outside of China, but when you look at them their still on Chinese telecom ip's
02:24
But that alone does not prove gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I don't think anything points to gaming on its own
exactly
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:25 AM
What's then needed is other detection methods too, like looking at how some of them have invalid beacons with witnesses in China
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it's a very severe action to take without having 100% proof (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:25 AM
Or how patterns of rssi on some are too static to be real
02:26
You're never going to be at that 100% mark that you're sure it's gamin
02:26
But you can form patterns around lots of evidence that you can say with some certainty that it's likely gaming
02:27
And what you've detected with that cluster, May not be true of other gaming, they may use other techniques
02:27
So defining it as only one thing isn't possible
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You're never going to be at that 100% mark that you're sure it's gamin
Right, that is my point. With something this severe it shouldn't be used without 100% certainty. Which might be impossible. Kind of like executing someone for murder without knowing for sure they did it (sorry for the dark analogy lol)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But you can form patterns around lots of evidence that you can say with some certainty that it's likely gaming
Yeah I agree there are ways to be "fairly" certain. So would maybe a less drastic consequence be more appropriate?
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Parylizer
Yeah I agree there are ways to be "fairly" certain. So would maybe a less drastic consequence be more appropriate?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:28 AM
Like what?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
In the security world @ap points out that usually with a hack, the first step is to mitigate, patch, feedback and then release the deny as such
Yeah normally if it was a suspect machine you’d 1. isolate / contain, 2. analyse, 3. mitigate / patch using analysis, repeat 2/3, 4. release isolation and containment measures and then review all steps to improve the process. In this HIP we’re saying 2 then 1 then 3. A little different.
👍 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:29 AM
I'm curious what else we could do other than invalidate their PoC activity
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pinned a message to this channel. 12/27/2021 2:29 AM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Like what?
Like capping rewards to similar levels as those around them. They then don't benefit over a legit setup if they are a gamer. And if they aren't they will still earn something till the appeal goes through or however they can get off the list.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'm curious what else we could do other than invalidate their PoC activity
invalidate only some
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Parylizer
Like capping rewards to similar levels as those around them. They then don't benefit over a legit setup if they are a gamer. And if they aren't they will still earn something till the appeal goes through or however they can get off the list.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:30 AM
Can't be picked like that it's all or nothing
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it doesn't need to be all or nothing
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:30 AM
As for limiting PoC rewards that's #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit and #hip-44-witness-reward-decay
02:31
Which would mean just vote no here and yes there :)
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Well sort. I think those are great long term solutions. I am more talking about people that are in this deny list specifically would have some type of restriction or reward scaling etc, not applied to the whole network. It's just a thought of alternatives.
02:33
Coming back to what you said, something like that could maybe be implemented before those ones to temporarily combat this until then (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:33 AM
You're talking tricky code now and outside the scope of what's being presented, and what helium have said they would be happy to code
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Same idea as this HIP but less drastic
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You're talking tricky code now and outside the scope of what's being presented, and what helium have said they would be happy to code
I don't think it would be as tricky as you think
02:34
I haven't seen helium's code specifically but I can think of simple ways to do something like this
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Parylizer
I haven't seen helium's code specifically but I can think of simple ways to do something like this
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:38 AM
Might be an idea so you can see what's possible, and how easily it could be done
02:39
The Helium blockchain uses a new consensus protocol, called simply the **Helium
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Fair enough 👍 I'll have to add that to my list of things to do 😄
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:40 AM
We're just saying when they submit a PoC activity, the validator would invalidate* it if all consensus members agreed, without receiving a penality for doing so (they would currently) (edited)
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I have studied most of the documentation, just not the code itself
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:41 AM
Erlang implementation of HoneyBadgerBFT. Contribute to helium/erlang-hbbft development by creating an account on GitHub.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
We're just saying when they submit a PoC activity, the validator would invalidate* it if all consensus members agreed, without receiving a penality for doing so (they would currently) (edited)
Right, but maybe the validators could say something like rather than deny all, just deny every other one. Or 80% or whatever is deemed appropriate It could even be a variable (the %) on the deny list specific to each hotspot on it. Then the validators use that to determine if its denied or accepted.
02:43
It's a bit more for sure, but very easy to code. Done similar things many times myself 😄
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Parylizer
Right, but maybe the validators could say something like rather than deny all, just deny every other one. Or 80% or whatever is deemed appropriate It could even be a variable (the %) on the deny list specific to each hotspot on it. Then the validators use that to determine if its denied or accepted.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:43 AM
They have no system to track if it's been denied before
02:43
How could they say only block it 80% of the time?
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That doesn't matter. it could be a simple RNG to determine it
02:43
random number generator between 1 and 10, if its a 1 or 2 (20% of the numbers) this its approved
02:44
if not its denied
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:44 AM
So they've been caught gaming
02:44
And we should continue to reward them 20% of the time
02:44
What if that 20% if the time is way more earnings than most hotspots?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So they've been caught gaming
they have been ACCUSED of gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:44 AM
Would they move or stop?
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Parylizer
they have been ACCUSED of gaming
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:45 AM
Sorry wrong wording
02:45
A super majority of a committee has voted that it's gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
What if that 20% if the time is way more earnings than most hotspots?
That's why I'm saying maybe it would be a variable alongside the hotspot in the deny list. So when its added a appropriate percentage would also be added.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:45 AM
They can appeal the lists
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For example if they are earning 10/day when 1/day is normal for the area, 90% could be applied to them so they only earn 1/day like the rest
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:46 AM
The idea was that the lists could be updated a few times a day, so if it's legit and can be proven (another issue with evidence here)
02:46
It could be removed quickly
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The idea was that the lists could be updated a few times a day, so if it's legit and can be proven (another issue with evidence here)
Exactly, another reason this list is dangerous. Since there are cases where no real proof really exists either way, it could easily turn into my word vs. your word.
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Parylizer
For example if they are earning 10/day when 1/day is normal for the area, 90% could be applied to them so they only earn 1/day like the rest
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:47 AM
But some clusters aren't in an area , they're spoofing, where they actually are could be way lower
02:47
That could still be a win for them
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But some clusters aren't in an area , they're spoofing, where they actually are could be way lower
True, if they are all alone with no one around them we would need another defined method to determine what limitation they should get
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:48 AM
If their all in a basement in London for example (edited)
02:49
But asserted somewhere there aren't any , they would win from you letting them do that, rather than be denied and forced to stop/go legit
02:49
See how this gets complex?
02:50
We have a simple method defined, that helium have confirmed they are happy to code
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Not sure if I'm following you on that example. I meant possible to limit them to 0 if they aren't around anybody to judge normal rewards. So in that example they would be affected in the same way.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:50 AM
No one's saying it's perfect, just that it's a step in the right direction
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
No one's saying it's perfect, just that it's a step in the right direction
Oof i disagree with it being the right direction. Right motives 100% though
02:51
Again the limitation was only 1 idea. I'm sure there other ways too besides a full block
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 2:53 AM
Sure, that would need to be another hip then
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Yup could be. Or subset of this one. Like what happens when someone is on the deny list. Full block or partial/some sort of limitation etc. Separate HIP might be more clear though, deny list sounds like a block not a limitation 😄
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Deleted User 12/27/2021 3:17 AM
Ultimately, long term for this to be successful, the coverage areas need to be accurate, though banning dissuades you from spoofing, it doesn’t fix the issue. I would suggest random, miner location checks. Should be feasible with a software update. Curious why we just don’t have the miners randomly assert. Inaccurate hot spots can be updated at the owners expense. (Maybe with an additional fee)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 3:18 AM
eventually sure things like that could happen, this isnt a fix to all gaming (edited)
03:18
just a method to catch the worst and let PoC changes catch up
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
eventually sure things like that could happen, this isnt a fix to all gaming (edited)
Do we already have a definition of when a cluster / single hotspot is deemed to be gaming and put on the denylist? I feel like right now the expert commitee will just be looking at clusters / miners and go "yeah might be gaming". I just don't like people having banhammers without actual evidence to support it. This destroys the whole idea of decentralisation. I would like this HIP a lot more if we had a strict and proper definition of when hotspots are defined to be gaming. This would also remove the need for the commitee because if the definitions are clear enough, the process can be automated in code. This would also catch alot more cheaters than some people randomly scanning what might soon be over a million devices.
👍 2
05:25
I think in order to address the gaming problem, we first need to properly define what gaming is. This process will also directly yield the solution to it.
05:26
At the moment, this HIP feels more like a botch attempt at solving a severe problem which will create more problems for the network than benefits.
05:28
I feel that if this HIP will be put up for votes as it is now, people will blindly accept it because it "removes the gaming problem" unbeknownst of the (maybe even substantial) consequences it will have
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05:29
But thats just my two cents on the problem. As I said in the beginning: Great idea, correct spirit but probably not the best way to go at it in its current state
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:32 AM
What are your so called substancial consequences?
05:32
Dude your either Legit or Cheating there is no gray line.
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Zenitramzal
Dude your either Legit or Cheating there is no gray line.
Absolutely. Can you look at miners on the map and tell me without a shadow of a doubt which ones are legit and which ones are cheating?
05:34
If you can then please tell us how
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:34 AM
you cant do that from explorer alone
05:34
you can look at challenges etc via an ETL to get a clearer picture tho
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:34 AM
We need a definite way to stop the blatant gaming. This hip a start.
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Zenitramzal
We need a definite way to stop the blatant gaming. This hip a start.
I agree!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you can look at challenges etc via an ETL to get a clearer picture tho
Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:35 AM
Exactly.
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We just also need to minimize legit people getting banned
05:35
And for that we need a proper way to differentiate cheating
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:35 AM
Legit people will.have no issues proving they are legit.
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How?
05:36
How in the world would an accused hotspot owner proof that his setup is legit?
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:36 AM
If I get accused of cheating, I have no issues supplying evidence, iE pictures, ect to prove otherwise.
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Zenitramzal
If I get accused of cheating, I have no issues supplying evidence, iE pictures, ect to prove otherwise.
Jup a cheater can do that too though
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:37 AM
Really? How?
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I can easily send you pictures of setups that are not mine
05:37
How could you tell the difference
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:37 AM
Dude must be validated.
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Pictures is not a good form of evidence for a hotspot being placed no?
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:37 AM
We aren't talking off google.
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Zenitramzal
Dude must be validated.
Can you elaborate?
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:39 AM
For one, there could be a group of Mappers per area that can validate my hotspot is where I say it is.
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Zenitramzal
For one, there could be a group of Mappers per area that can validate my hotspot is where I say it is.
I agree. Mappers are a part of a good solution.
05:39
And probably the only way to prove that a hotspot is actually there
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:39 AM
mappers data just cant be trusted, it could be them submitting fake info
05:39
but
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It is not easy to get a mapper everywhere in the world though
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:39 AM
i do say, like the cluster we have in the UK thats not there
05:39
we can map it (edited)
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Absolutely!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:40 AM
and for eg, i could map it, its that close
05:40
would you trust my data?
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:40 AM
Why do people always complain about the cheating but then worry about it unfair banhammers.
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As I said: My main concern is how can an actual honest person prove that he is not cheating?
05:40
If he does not have access to a mapper?
05:40
Is the concept guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty?
05:40
I can only support the latter option
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:41 AM
innocent until voted on by a committee of peers
05:41
like ap said here, slightly different order to what normally happens
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That's guilty until proven innocent though if one is accused no??
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:41 AM
we investigate potentials, vote, deny
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The committee accuses someone and then they are guilty
05:42
until proven innocent
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:42 AM
no, innocent untill evidence can be built and voted on to say they are
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
no, innocent untill evidence can be built and voted on to say they are
Ok. So we do have a definition of gaming which delivers this evidence?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:43 AM
no
05:43
this hip is just going to be defining the method
05:43
I cant keep saying this lol
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:43 AM
I don't think your every day user is going to be accused. Your thinking this is going to be like hey I don't Like Neil so let me accuse him of cheating.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:43 AM
the committee and the first list (which could and hopefully) will be one of many
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Zenitramzal
I don't think your every day user is going to be accused. Your thinking this is going to be like hey I don't Like Neil so let me accuse him of cheating.
I have a fear that it might go in that direction yesx
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:43 AM
is seperate
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:43 AM
NO!
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Who does the committe investigate?
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:44 AM
There is no reason to go that way.
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People who have been reported?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:44 AM
whatever they like, suspected big gamers
05:44
there is no reporting process
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Ok. Glad to hear that!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:44 AM
this is not for folks to say, this hotspots off 300m, ban them
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Are they going to randomly analyze clusters?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:44 AM
this is for example
05:45
for the clusters that moved the day pocv11 went out from china to across the EU
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:45 AM
First off you can't accuse anyone or group with out some type of proof.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:45 AM
that COULD be (and looks to be, but not investigated)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
for the clusters that moved the day pocv11 went out from china to across the EU
That makes a lot of sence
05:45
to investigate them (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:45 AM
yeah
05:45
but we cant do any of that without this hip
05:45
the deny list
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:46 AM
Its a mechanism that would allow for further investigation and obviously would need a similar appeal process.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:46 AM
the committee and how they score will come separately, but you also have to remember, say a data analysis network comes along and produces a list based on real world tests, and they produce a list, validators can choose to use that one, then detection etc is not something under the committes control
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the committee and how they score will come separately, but you also have to remember, say a data analysis network comes along and produces a list based on real world tests, and they produce a list, validators can choose to use that one, then detection etc is not something under the committes control
Ok. That sounds good. I just think that the scoring system needs to be public to provide transparency. Is that planed?
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TheJWays
Ok. That sounds good. I just think that the scoring system needs to be public to provide transparency. Is that planed?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:48 AM
yes! very much so
05:48
one of my main conserns is about the committee being open
05:48
whilst i understand they cant detail hacks (especially if their not patched)
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Very good. That was the main point of what i was writing above
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:48 AM
the whole process must be seen as open
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
whilst i understand they cant detail hacks (especially if their not patched)
Of course
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:49 AM
the centralisation aspect - its a big one, but i see the fact its going to be OPT IN and they can choose which list to use makes it more decentralised
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The openness removes the problem of the random accusations and replaces it with hard criterions. Thats a good thing
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the centralisation aspect - its a big one, but i see the fact its going to be OPT IN and they can choose which list to use makes it more decentralised
Who is they?
05:50
Validators?
05:50
Why would the banlist be optional?
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:50 AM
I'm not so concerned about false accusations to be honest.
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TheJWays
Validators?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:51 AM
yes
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I am though 🙂
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TheJWays
Why would the banlist be optional?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:51 AM
to make it a decentralised choice
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TheJWays
I am though 🙂
Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:51 AM
Why are you walking the thin line?
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Zenitramzal
Why are you walking the thin line?
Because damage to hones people can bring the downfall of the project because of negative PR
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:52 AM
If your legit, why would you even worry?
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Zenitramzal
If your legit, why would you even worry?
Personally I don't worry about my hotspot. I worry about the project as a whole
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:52 AM
at a guess
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:52 AM
What do you think knockdown bring down the network faster? Rampid cheating or one person wrongly accused?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:53 AM
I honestly think this isnt going to be a huge list
05:53
and the chances of individual hotspots being selected would be rare (edited)
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Zenitramzal
What do you think knockdown bring down the network faster? Rampid cheating or one person wrongly accused?
Depends on who big the cheating problem actually is. I don't know
05:53
We have no numbers
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:53 AM
the human time cost is too big, remembering this is all volunteer
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TheJWays
We have no numbers
Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:54 AM
There are plenty of numbers outthere.
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Source?
05:54
I'd love to read up on it
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:54 AM
Read back in discord. Start in PocDiscussion.
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Do we have a guess as to how many % of the mining earnings are given to cheaters?
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:55 AM
Go back several months.
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If it's below 1% then it's definetely not worth the fuzz
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 5:56 AM
This is block Chain, everything is on chain and can be analyzed fairly easily.
05:57
Its not just a percent. Its also the consequences that, for example those bad clusters, cause on the legitimate players.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:58 AM
yeah many of those clusters I've seen spring up have effected peoples transmit scales
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yeah many of those clusters I've seen spring up have effected peoples transmit scales
That's indeed a crappy thing to do
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 5:58 AM
trying to hide what their doing through obscurity some what causing knock on effects
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I personally have absolutely no idea of the scale of the problem. I don't know if we're dealing with a fly or with an elephant here.
06:00
But it sounds more like a big problem if those moved clusters break down the transmit scales of other honest miners
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TheJWays
I personally have absolutely no idea of the scale of the problem. I don't know if we're dealing with a fly or with an elephant here.
Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 6:00 AM
How many hotspots do you currently own? Are you in the US or Uk?
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Zenitramzal
How many hotspots do you currently own? Are you in the US or Uk?
One hotspot
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 6:01 AM
a few months back i selected the top few hundred earners and did some checks , there are some easy patterns to spot
06:01
but it wasn't that in depth
06:01
quite a few obvious ones tho
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 6:02 AM
I don't have too many either, but I have seen many good concepts be torn down due to cheating and do not want to see it repeated here.
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I agree. Maybe my fear is unfounded. As I said: I think it's important to combat cheaters
06:02
I don't know if this is the right way but time will tell
06:03
It's probably the best shot we got at the moment
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 6:03 AM
I hope, if hip40 goes through, we have the conversation in a further hip about disabling it, in favour of better methods
06:03
that would be the best case senario
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jup. Sounds good
06:03
The network is still young
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TheJWays
The network is still young
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 6:04 AM
yeah, call it training wheels
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and developping to become even better
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 6:04 AM
something to stop it going off track or down because of gaming
06:04
but eventually it needs to run without it
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Alright you convinced me 🙂
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Zenitramzal 12/27/2021 6:04 AM
It would be worse if the network was in danger and there was nothing in place. Then, helium would have no choice to do something drastic and that is when many innocent people could get affected.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 6:04 AM
partyparrot
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If we look at it as a temporary measure to get rid of the very obvious big clusters which won't be too long of a list anyways then it's definetly a good idea
06:06
Thanks for the time to explain this!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 6:06 AM
yeah
06:07
I personally like hip-22 and the ability to add trust to hotspots (and that trust can spread over RF) and the idea thats floating around for secure mappers and the ability for mappers to earn by verifying, but those are both a ways off yet
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Тихая тень 12/27/2021 8:20 AM
my only issue with this is who watches the watchers? sound sus af to me if a committee is made whats to keep this committee against "hmmmmm these miners are where I want to place mine or my friends wants to place them" then report those miners as spoofers they get banned and "oooo open fiend" and dont say that is given the chance this senario wouldnt happen it has happened countless times irl....not with hopspots but with land and homes
08:21
I grew up in the Soviet regime I refuse to be a part of anything like that again
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Deleted User 12/27/2021 9:11 AM
I just see this becoming corrupted, very quickly. Someone doesn’t like other people in their hex’s reports false evidence of them spoofing. Someone gets pissed on someone Reddit, try and get them banned. At what point does this devolve to basically twitter?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 9:12 AM
this hip does not outline a method to report, again its only for the largest of gamers
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Тихая тень 12/27/2021 9:39 AM
then when the largest groups are out of the way people will then start to eye the small groups....those given power dont just give it up lmao and it would be very stupid to think they would...also what makes a gamer large? what makes them small? what about mid-size? What if a committee member has their own gamer setup? who then would regulate them? For people claiming to love decentralization they sure have a funny way of showing love wanting to regulate....lol also you're doing this to combat the gamers you claim however what if someone has a grid that is legitimate?
09:39
As we used to say where I'm from "Too many chiiefs not enough indians....too many officers not enough soldiers"
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Seems to me that the ability to appeal a decision by committee would protect the innocent. I'm imagining this would all be publicly discussed in zoom meetings or discord before someone was placed on the list, eliminating the ability for the committee to become corrupt.
12:16
Maybe go as far as post a warning to their wallet, say 7 days before the ban, in case they don't use discord. (edited)
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rewards for gamers are getting lower and lower as the network grows
12:19
by the time this hip gets approved and something starts happening, lots of things can change
12:20
I think secure mappers could be the best solution for the gaming problem and it wouldn't raise such controversies as this HIP
12:21
the HIP for secure mappers was written long time ago. Any ideas if there are any progress on that or if they will ever happen?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 12:21 PM
you're talking a long time to get a device developed
12:22
i dont think it'll be a quick thing
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Requesting a point of clarity: are we looking to penalize individual hotspots or wallets? Why I ask: If we seek to penalize owning accounts with many fraudulent hotspots, what's to stop those account owners from creating new accounts and shifting to a lower-density ownership model, where one IRL organization owns multiple wallets? (edited)
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I would support a HIP that seeks to improve POC to include a confidence or reputation score, assigned on a per-hotspot basis, which is periodically re-evaluated. Once that gets dialed-in, let that score be an earnings modifier in conjunction with transmit scale.
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12:40
Many SIEM systems use super simple risk scoring mechanisms to prioritize alerts, and because of the volume of events needing evaluation, the math ends up being effective and super simple.
12:40
Find a description of the fields and columns on the Alarms page in AlienVault USM Appliance.
12:41
Risk level of an alarm, which can be Low (1), Medium (2), or High (>=3) . Risk calculation is based on the formula: Asset Value * Event Reliability * Event Priority / 25 = Risk So if Asset Value = 3, Reliability = 4 and Priority = 5, the risk would be 3 * 4 * 5 / 25 = 2.4 (rounded down to 2), therefore the Risk value is Medium.
12:43
Can we look to expand on the basic attributes we assign to hotspots, and use that later to inform reward scaling on a per-hotspot basis?
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This could be interesting
12:47
A hotspot that is witnessed by a multitude of different hotspots, in different wallets and different areas could have a higher trust rating
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Importantly, I'm not suggesting that we copy/paste a SIEM platform's algorithm to address our issue here. But we can look at what's used in the space and come up with our own algorithm that works for Helium.
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and in turn it could raise the trust rating of other hotspots that can witness it
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12:47
something like that
12:49
so if my hotspot is in a remote area but if it can witness or get witnessed by a hotspot with high trust rating, than the risk will be considered lower
12:49
something like that i guess 😄
12:50
adjusting the earnings by this risk factor could be way better than blocking the hotspots entirely and it would convince the owners to improve the placement or stop gaming
12:51
Any thoughts on this? @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
12:52
Also getting invalid witnesses from huge distances could lower the trust factor
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And if time invested (age of account-to-hotspot relationship) is a factor in assigning trust, and given that time is the one non-negotiable human currency, we encourage and incentivize stability and consistency. (edited)
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On the validator side, we use tenure penalties to force load leveling, and performance penalties to encourage operators to provision performant validators.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/27/2021 1:49 PM
Not what this hip is proposing, we can't do reputations with this
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Deleted User 12/27/2021 2:04 PM
Because no one could fake another helium account, that would be impossible
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the centralisation aspect - its a big one, but i see the fact its going to be OPT IN and they can choose which list to use makes it more decentralised
Brainstormer 12/27/2021 6:18 PM
if a hotspot makes it on the list, does that mean it will never earn? or only when the consensus group all have same or different list and agree to deny that hotspot? and if in the next consensus, 1 validator don't opt in any list, does that mean that hotspot will earn?
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Koalification 12/27/2021 10:27 PM
When can we vote for hip 40?
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recklessboarder 12/27/2021 11:16 PM
Man HIP 40 needs to happen soon....
23:17
Poc v11 has opened the door to more spoofers ><
23:18
I want to promote this network but not when its plagued with spoofers 😦
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How did poc v11 open door to spoofers when it was suppose to fix spoofing/?
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Pendraloth
and in turn it could raise the trust rating of other hotspots that can witness it
@slack has started to put together some thoughts on this idea here, based on a number of discussions had in the #poc-discussion channel: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13GOLHVjUQ8KTYbeXX1vmDpyVkE3Brc0WzOkI05Dt9SI/edit
Proposed HIP: Hotspot Trust Scores for Rewards Scaling Summary The creation of a system to gather and analyse data from various sources on all aspects of the Helium network. Automated data gathering will feed a combination of real time and retrospective analysis to generate a trust score that can...
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Still working/thinking on it too, doc hasn't moved much since christmas though
01:39
had a couple of good comments from Helium folks too
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slack
Still working/thinking on it too, doc hasn't moved much since christmas though
I've been thinking more on it (a little) - good to get some positive feedback too. I think essentially it's a framework for other tools to fit in. So I think the best approach is to drive for the creation of that framework, which then allows those other tools to fit in as and when they are developed. I'm sure hashc0de mentioned a "liveness" indicator which is unused. Once I get some time to spend to myself after Christmas I'll do some more digging on that.
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the_dave
I've been thinking more on it (a little) - good to get some positive feedback too. I think essentially it's a framework for other tools to fit in. So I think the best approach is to drive for the creation of that framework, which then allows those other tools to fit in as and when they are developed. I'm sure hashc0de mentioned a "liveness" indicator which is unused. Once I get some time to spend to myself after Christmas I'll do some more digging on that.
liveness?
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slack
liveness?
Yes - an indicator of how “live” a hotspot is. Possibly something which could be used as a “realness” indicator instead. Or in other words - exactly the scoring mechanism we’ve talked about. (Possibly!)
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the_dave
Yes - an indicator of how “live” a hotspot is. Possibly something which could be used as a “realness” indicator instead. Or in other words - exactly the scoring mechanism we’ve talked about. (Possibly!)
Interesting. I've been trying to shake out a few details of what might be going on in closed development otherwise as well, mostly so I'm not reinventing the wheel or something but nothings jumped out
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Brainstormer
if a hotspot makes it on the list, does that mean it will never earn? or only when the consensus group all have same or different list and agree to deny that hotspot? and if in the next consensus, 1 validator don't opt in any list, does that mean that hotspot will earn?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/28/2021 2:30 AM
Yep you got it all consensus members must have a matching deny, if a new election takes place and one doesn't agree, the deny doesn't happen
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the comments in the doc from @Helium Mob #00 were encouraging too
02:32
i'm currently trying to build a bit of a proof of concept at the moment and figure out how to segment the concept a bit
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slack
i'm currently trying to build a bit of a proof of concept at the moment and figure out how to segment the concept a bit
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/28/2021 2:32 AM
May I ask you to please move this to #hip-discussion we need to leave this room hip40 related
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ah yeah sure, i think it is peripherally related though
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/28/2021 2:33 AM
Sure, anything other than the hip40 mechanism would need to be a new hip
02:34
If hip40 was approved, you could then suggest updates to it in a new hip as such
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Hi all, in the next few days I'll do a survey of a fake location with more that a hundred hotspots with a GPS lorawan sensor. I don't expect to witness any hotspot, indeed proving that that all that locations are fake. What could be the next steps?
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sbittante
Hi all, in the next few days I'll do a survey of a fake location with more that a hundred hotspots with a GPS lorawan sensor. I don't expect to witness any hotspot, indeed proving that that all that locations are fake. What could be the next steps?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/28/2021 3:45 AM
Nothing, there is no process and the data can't be trusted
03:45
Hip40 doesn't have a reporting method either
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should I start a new HIP?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yep you got it all consensus members must have a matching deny, if a new election takes place and one doesn't agree, the deny doesn't happen
Brainstormer 12/28/2021 7:42 AM
has there been a poll among the validators if they would adopt the Dewi list?
07:43
validators will be issuing challenges and the deny list, isn't it a bit taxing on the validators?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yep you got it all consensus members must have a matching deny, if a new election takes place and one doesn't agree, the deny doesn't happen
AFAIK, any agreement by the CG requires not all CG members, but just at least 2/3rds. So for the current CG size of 43, that is at least 29 CG members need to agree that a hotspot is on the deny list in order to block the hotspot's rewards. Actually, this makes me wonder if there will be a penalty effect to non-blocking hotspots? Someone needs to ask Evan or one of the other core validator devs what would happen in this situation: CG size is 43, so 29 members required to block a hotspot via deny list. Of the 43 CG members, let's say 10 have chosen to opt-out of a deny list, and the other 33 all have the same deny list. That deny list has a hotspot called angry-purple-tiger on it. Let's also assume no malicious validators, and they're all running the same code. Now, when the CG processes a transaction reward or PoC transaction for angry-purple-tiger, 33 CG members all vote to block it. Do the other 10 get penalized? They're just opting out of a deny list, not maliciously trying to help angry-purple-tiger. If we say these 10 are not penalized for this, how can the CG tell the difference between a "I'm just opting out" validator and one that is actively trying to help angry-purple-tiger? (edited)
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krby
AFAIK, any agreement by the CG requires not all CG members, but just at least 2/3rds. So for the current CG size of 43, that is at least 29 CG members need to agree that a hotspot is on the deny list in order to block the hotspot's rewards. Actually, this makes me wonder if there will be a penalty effect to non-blocking hotspots? Someone needs to ask Evan or one of the other core validator devs what would happen in this situation: CG size is 43, so 29 members required to block a hotspot via deny list. Of the 43 CG members, let's say 10 have chosen to opt-out of a deny list, and the other 33 all have the same deny list. That deny list has a hotspot called angry-purple-tiger on it. Let's also assume no malicious validators, and they're all running the same code. Now, when the CG processes a transaction reward or PoC transaction for angry-purple-tiger, 33 CG members all vote to block it. Do the other 10 get penalized? They're just opting out of a deny list, not maliciously trying to help angry-purple-tiger. If we say these 10 are not penalized for this, how can the CG tell the difference between a "I'm just opting out" validator and one that is actively trying to help angry-purple-tiger? (edited)
it can't (tell the difference between opting out versus helping out), which is why I am adamant that there not be an extra penalty assigned for disagreement. It will rapidly spiral out of control into a chaotic cabal wherein we are all slaves to some majority that happens to take effect and then rules forevermore. (edited)
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another wallet with miners with over 2.5k beacons
14:34
13uKs5VbWg3SkFcvX5G7fRhxkjeTaFc7j3EEKdA4mRfUG3Mi7Ts
14:51
82.196.3.95 - his miners point to ip's hosted on digitalocean
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lebo
Why nothing is done ? https://postimg.cc/8JC7ZQsg it’s urgent now. (edited)
I suspect that hip-40 could not react so quickly to gaming farms
02:06
the easiest way could be to create denyHEXlist (edited)
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Chinese are so well organized
02:47
making those deployments in perfect geometrical shapes 😄
02:48
China banned all crypto, why are helium hotspot still being sold there?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/29/2021 2:48 AM
they're not
02:49
if you check the last MoC video, semtech has been told (and their partners) to stop selling the lora chips there
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Martin Moose 12/29/2021 12:08 PM
Has the issue of requiring miners to have a GPS capability been explored. If the actually location of the miner (encrypted to prevent GPS LOC spoofing)?) is sent as part of the POC beaconing then doesn't that fix the problem once and for all? I guess the major issue here is that most all miners for not have an embedded GPS location device? One way to address this is to have new miner require that capability and triangulate to older miner that do not have GPS ? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/29/2021 12:09 PM
OG hotspots have gps in them, but it was found the GPS info wasn't reliable indoors
12:09
that and its easily spoofed
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Martin Moose 12/29/2021 12:10 PM
how is it spoofed easily - I am suggesting that it's encrypted as part of the POC beacon packet
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Yep. There’s a whole segment of the automotive IoT market for solutions that mitigate GPS spoofing.
12:12
The GPS signal is really faint by the time it arrives at the antenna. SDR can be used to spoof a GPS signal.
12:12
The hotspot isn’t aware, just trusts what the GPS module reports
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Martin Moose 12/29/2021 12:17 PM
The goal is to raise the effort to spoof to a level that it is not economically reasonable to do so. If the GPS chip is inside the miner then your start to make it harder for most all casual spoofers to game the system.
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Martin Moose 12/29/2021 12:21 PM
I see a few others stating that a deny list would be a moving target. I think I agree with that. If you are denied in one area don't you just move to another corner of the world and reassert your location there. The disincentive is the cost to assert location?
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Spoofing the signal is the cheapest way
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Martin Moose
I see a few others stating that a deny list would be a moving target. I think I agree with that. If you are denied in one area don't you just move to another corner of the world and reassert your location there. The disincentive is the cost to assert location?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/29/2021 12:22 PM
the hotspot address would be in the deny list
12:22
so if they moved, it would still be denied
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Martin Moose 12/29/2021 12:25 PM
Seems to me that the fundamental problem is how do you determine the TRUE (physical) location of the miner. Until you solve that problem then everything else is a band aid.
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io just listening to the community recording, you're Anthony right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/29/2021 12:38 PM
no thats @Anthonyra
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
no thats @Anthonyra
Yep, that was me
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Martin Moose
Seems to me that the fundamental problem is how do you determine the TRUE (physical) location of the miner. Until you solve that problem then everything else is a band aid.
Spatial authentication, especially for this network, is a profoundly hard problem to solve.
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Anthonyra
Yep, that was me
ah cool your avatars in discord look pretty similar 😁
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slack
ah cool your avatars in discord look pretty similar 😁
haha yea I can see that, did you want to talk to me about something? Or just putting a name to face?
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Good talk about this HIP in the call today
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Thank you! Just trying to explain it the best I can so other can see the importance of it. BFGNeil has done a lot more leg work though to get it to where it is today
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I'd been feeling like this HIP was potentially going to be over-reaching and difficult to manage in practice but the talk around it in the call gave it some good scope that I think has been a bit loss in the discussion potentially
13:06
because there's so much fuss about gaming/cheating everyone wants something to magically solve that, and i guess some of the devs have been pointing to this HIP like that too, this HIP is seen by many as a general purpose tool but i agree with what you're saying that it should be more of an emergency last resort kinda measure
13:06
i don't know the history of some of the past cases of cheating that were mentioned, but what were the solutions in those cases in the past? did they require dev intervention or firmware changes or something?
13:08
this as a means to prevent/limit/stop those extreme cases of cheating/abuse where it can be done in a decentralised way makes sense i think (edited)
13:15
oh @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io i see you were on the call too 😁
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/29/2021 1:15 PM
yeah 🙂
13:15
my hope is that we can continue splitting this hip from function of hip40 here, to the PoC committee elsewhere
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not sure why i thought anthony = neil now that i think about it
13:18
I'm keen to start a thread to contain some of this general discussion (maybe the beginnings of a working group), separately from this channel, do you think it'd be best inside #foundation maybe? or #hip-discussion ?
13:19
i'm keen to take some of this momentum that's building and try and channel it a bit
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/29/2021 1:19 PM
What are we talking about here, if you're talking about the hip for scoring, best bet would be to submit a hip, then a working room can be made
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i'm thinking more generally
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/29/2021 1:20 PM
if its ideas round gaming, maybe a poc-committee room could be good
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including my scoring proposal but also other avenues as well
13:21
my work isn't ready for a HIP yet
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deasydoesit 12/29/2021 1:41 PM
Will this HIP further increase the time to process reward blocks?
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Martin Moose
how is it spoofed easily - I am suggesting that it's encrypted as part of the POC beacon packet
In many non-Helium applications, the signal GPS signal received by the GPS module in a consumer device has been shown to be very easy to spoof with not very expensive hardware. Also, GPS fixes can be difficult to get indoors. (edited)
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Remus
another wallet with miners with over 2.5k beacons
Not unusual with a really good setup in a crowded area.
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Parylizer you don't know what you are talking about.
15:10
Sorry, i'll be frank with you, all of the miners got over 2k beacons
15:10
They get -130 to -139dbm rssi signals
15:11
The weakest ones with 1.1k witnesses
15:12
Check the video from sorin
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Remus
Check the video from sorin
His hotspots are the perfect example lol. He gets over 1k beacons with legit setups
18:51
I know many people with that number of beacons and all it takes is a great setup. Some might be cheating but some are not. it's 100% doable without any hacks. (edited)
18:51
And need a good area (edited)
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Man seriously, stop. Sorin is an electronist dude who uses different amplifiers and test a ton of stuff. Hes got his own yt and discord where he repairs pretty much everything. Hes not an ordinary user. He hosts two miners on top of each other in his garden with different antennas. Just check his videos. But the account i provided or those in belgium are able to detect signals that are so weak. With pocv11 you shouldnt be able to get 1.1k witnesses in europe considering you d be limited by local regulations.
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03:20
I get 1k beacons or close on my miners but some are mounted 25m height with 8 dbi antenna with very little cable loss
03:21
But when i get pinged by people telling me for 200 $ they can change my rssi for my miner so i can get over 2k beacons, its pretty obvious whats going on.
03:22
its not a hack
03:22
its just lora concentrators
03:22
and their settings based on semtech chip
03:23
1302 right now will go above 120
03:23
1301 will show a max of 120 (even if its higher in reality) (edited)
03:23
Wow
03:24
So some miners are better than others due to hardware?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/30/2021 3:24 AM
no, just its currently reporting wrong
03:24
due to a bug
03:24
in reality, some report a max of 120 when they could be -130
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Can we just ban Pisces hardware ? Sounds like fixing 80% of the problem !!! What a shame this brand !
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disk91.com
Can we just ban Pisces hardware ? Sounds like fixing 80% of the problem !!! What a shame this brand !
bigdaveakers 12/30/2021 2:29 PM
It is not limited to one vendor sadly.
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Rrsi reporting is just software and can be not correct on some implementations, that is why I don't believe in Poc11
15:34
I have seen it before that a software update changed the rrsi levels due to a wrong implementation on the previous firmware
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Just to confirm currently any signal that is weaker than -120 is just discarded or will it pop up as invalid in my beacon section stating low rssi?
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chicagomed
Just to confirm currently any signal that is weaker than -120 is just discarded or will it pop up as invalid in my beacon section stating low rssi?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/31/2021 1:51 AM
No the hard cutoff is -135, some concentrators will be reporting it incorrectly (well, I think the last update had the fix so might not now) at amax of -120 tho
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Thanks. So anything weaker than -135 doesnt show up on beacons at all rather than stating invalid witness due to rssi too low , am i right ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 12/31/2021 9:26 AM
yeah, hard cutoff for anything weaker
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Also...AFAIK, RSSI isn't some standard measurement for anything. A given chipset reports RSSI, but what are the units what is the range, how was it calibrated? As an example, I've seen many many devices report RSSI as 0-100, with 0 meaning "the weakest signal I can RX" and 100 being something like "strongest signal I can report on"
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Even Apple did change rrsi values to hide the bad reception of their iphones
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krby
Also...AFAIK, RSSI isn't some standard measurement for anything. A given chipset reports RSSI, but what are the units what is the range, how was it calibrated? As an example, I've seen many many devices report RSSI as 0-100, with 0 meaning "the weakest signal I can RX" and 100 being something like "strongest signal I can report on"
ok, the units in RSSI are traditionally dBm, or "decibels relative to 1 milliwatt". Whether it is calibrated is a great question. It's definitely not a 0-100 scale. I'd be very surprised if you can find a single Helium hotspot reporting it this way.
17:56
RSSI is designed to reflect the actual power "harvested" from the signal as it is received. An RSSI of -100 dBm, for example, reflects that the signal was received at 1 ten billionth of a thousandth of a watt, or in other terms, .1 picowatt. Enough to power a very very very very tiny violin.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
No the hard cutoff is -135, some concentrators will be reporting it incorrectly (well, I think the last update had the fix so might not now) at amax of -120 tho
there's no hard cutoff, but the laws of physics and information theory do make it nearly impossible for a LoRa packet to be decoded if it's received at a power less than -135 dBm. But there's nothing in the blockchain nor the packet forwarder that "drops" a packet below this level. If the concentrator card receives it, it will be reported.
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jerm
ok, the units in RSSI are traditionally dBm, or "decibels relative to 1 milliwatt". Whether it is calibrated is a great question. It's definitely not a 0-100 scale. I'd be very surprised if you can find a single Helium hotspot reporting it this way.
I'm an amateur self-taught kind of radio geek, so I'll defer to you on this, but I've had it explained to my by people I trust to know that the RSSI value available to a driver or user level app may not be dBm or anything useful except as a relative value for that specific RX gear.
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krby
I'm an amateur self-taught kind of radio geek, so I'll defer to you on this, but I've had it explained to my by people I trust to know that the RSSI value available to a driver or user level app may not be dBm or anything useful except as a relative value for that specific RX gear.
that may be true, in general, but it's not true of Helium and the Semtech radios it runs on.
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jerm
that may be true, in general, but it's not true of Helium and the Semtech radios it runs on.
Ahh, got it. So all the same (or very similar) chipsets, so it's knowable that it's dBm.
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krby
Ahh, got it. So all the same (or very similar) chipsets, so it's knowable that it's dBm.
if the chipset says it's dBm, then yes, it's dBm. The chipset says it's dBm. 😄
18:02
But if someone hands you a report that says "the RSSI was -40" and doesn't append a unit to the end, then you have every right to say "meaningless, vague numbers!".
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hey what happened with this cheater in London?
13:26
All hotspots now offline and not earning
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Who will execute both the banning and appeal? What if you were just mass reported? We are now running a P2P project with a central authority.
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vernelv
Who will execute both the banning and appeal? What if you were just mass reported? We are now running a P2P project with a central authority.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/04/2022 2:14 AM
This hip doesn't outline a reporting process
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I'm curious what cases will be considered as cheating by the comitee
02:14
some examples
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/04/2022 2:15 AM
The committee made up of peers and what they do will not be governed by this hip, it's being split so this just defines the function of deny , the decentralisation comes from validators opting in and choosing to use the list
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In China there are clear cases of gaming, but in Europe it's harder to notice them
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/04/2022 2:15 AM
But yes, I agree it does at a lot of power over the network
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Pendraloth
In China there are clear cases of gaming, but in Europe it's harder to notice them
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/04/2022 2:16 AM
There's 3 big clusters in the UK
02:16
Fairly easy to spot
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how many hotspots?
02:16
do they make 1+ HNT / day?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/04/2022 2:17 AM
they dont earn much
02:17
the biggest annoyance i can understand from hosts on 2 of the clusters is their dragging transmit scales down
02:17
one is in the middle of nowhere
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the one I liked above is one of them, 48 hotspots in one account and 42 on the other one. Here is one with 60 all dodgy too
10:36
they are relatively easy to spot since they are spread evenly on the map, which is not normal
10:39
to be honest hunting for these will be much easier using analytics
10:41
a machine learning clustering algorithm will be able to detect these fairly easy, as these clusters all connect to themselves mostly so finding them shouldn't be that hard.
10:46
In fact I think this hip can only do so much as it's going to be a manual approach. I wish the network started to look at a programatic way to penalise cheaters. For instance clusters could be calculated by the network and those clusters that did not interact with with nearby clusters could be penalised. A bit like transmit scale encourages network expansion this could encourage fair play as earnings between isolated clusters could be reduced a lot (save for truly isolated clusters in the middle of nowhere, those will be harder to validate but they won't be earning much as they are isolated anyway)
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One of the many 'farms' (52 HS's) Cluster in NL, https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/1494ZhxjjELq6DGS6L2hnPND8xk7hLZrUhJvjzcSg3AhDTFjwcp checked some peerbook entries, the ones i checked all behind one single chinese IP. It's so frustrating. Isn't there some p2p payload we can use to Ddos those? /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18673 |/p2p/112QzdbxQRqNeSz9AkxF2M4tWXkxVbHu3kv83ZGMvu9DECVZqAe | petite-carmine-vulture | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18675 |/p2p/112SeLpRBKMn86idxhhrEogeRK8NBjncnaSu8wHDfRhz1eEVnnXF| bright-linen-beetle | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18676 |/p2p/11Ajb9oyLUPEj5AiQHRvCZwafnDcR3Wa7arSdGeAjtWTarLuHbK | upbeat-powder-pigeon | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18677 |/p2p/11PaWPZq4St9rnK8kmBWUEpJnkUXpNGp8mq7XFGX5AntTVSHPZs | modern-mango-narwhal | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18678 |/p2p/11VjZ4caF7xF6pzsTDAZymtYr4dnbXHt7QP9p2NAJVZYhkeLkyD | overt-bubblegum-crow | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18682 |/p2p/1128G9DX4vwmQHJZ5RddLH3mrzGp8Pc3ofe4eezCosnjTtH1QsK3| quick-shadow-puma | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18752 |/p2p/112bMg78GLJWnW4ej2nyY4zu6Z1WM99LDqJEACffovkBXUeLJRJi|blurry-aegean-dragonfly| /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18753 |/p2p/112n3nnmFyALqHqjKv5RpRE8aeU1VK5shGCyNW27UzQFoEoiQG7f| teeny-shamrock-llama | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18686 |/p2p/112qsd3JHEuYLXoTKbU9Em4FRy9hegZpz2VnvkwADmHrgtQ2SU2f| funny-marmalade-wasp | /ip4/39.172.169.42/tcp/18685 |/p2p/11TAdJiKwRkZQoGR4HmdSpErnTUDAE1eZvTAmKeSp4jPdkAQPr3 | damp-gauze-parrot | (edited)
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Fox Citizen 01/04/2022 1:13 PM
Hi, is anyone considering the ip address from which the miners are getting the internet connection so if there is a lot of them in the same room it means they’re using the same ip connection? (don’t know if it works also with sim mobile..) (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There's 3 big clusters in the UK
There are many of fake clusters in china, earning over 100hnt/month/cluster. Any plan to do something about it Neil?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/06/2022 8:05 AM
I mean that's one of the reasons I submitted this hip...
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at least one cluster in Tokyo downtown... 15 hotspots with one at 100m height in the biggest temple (meiji jingu), impossible.
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As you're talking about possibly known clusters or farms, what currently can be done about it? Or is anything currently being done at all?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/07/2022 8:49 AM
Nothing can be done currently there is no deny or anything like it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
they dont earn much
this cluster in NL: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13RV23YtStB8DsZj2UXKc6RLfvNpJqX8aMPzuGbRRLZLpFUyktU has started to earn a lot last week 4000 dollar in 7 days is really hard to swallow when I'm doing my best to find actual genuine good spots with lots of coverage makes me want to put my 22 miners I have in some shed and do the same since there is no-one even trying to stop me 😦
13:25
what if users could vote to blacklist a wallet or denylist, and that each vote also costs HNT to burn this could be the consensus on when to blacklist a wallet; if enough votes have been casts from surrounding wallets (0,1 hnt for a vote, for instance) the wallet could be marked to block from all activity (freezing the miners as well) that way clusters like these in Flevoland can be cleaned quite easily marked as fake and get voted away
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/07/2022 1:28 PM
theres some further updates coming to hip40
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13:29
watch this space 😉
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with the Discovery function it was easy to see fake clusters
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/07/2022 2:10 PM
yeah mappers data/discovery is great
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even my brilliant mind cant find a good fail proof automated system for this
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beemjack577 01/08/2022 5:55 AM
what makes HIP40 bad is the ability to sell the denied hotspots therefore the buyer/community member is effected. is there anything to prevent this?
05:56
and is it aimed at clusters, or high earning hotspots? or both!? (edited)
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Edwin88
this cluster in NL: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13RV23YtStB8DsZj2UXKc6RLfvNpJqX8aMPzuGbRRLZLpFUyktU has started to earn a lot last week 4000 dollar in 7 days is really hard to swallow when I'm doing my best to find actual genuine good spots with lots of coverage makes me want to put my 22 miners I have in some shed and do the same since there is no-one even trying to stop me 😦
Good point, fully agreed. It's frustrating to see many cheat miners, especially in NL and BE. Glad to hear updates are coming @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io . You're doing a great job!
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beemjack577
and is it aimed at clusters, or high earning hotspots? or both!? (edited)
The problem is it shouldn't be aimed at either (or anything specific). Neither clusters or high earners are "bad", both of those could be legit. They could be gaming but just earning a lot or having a cluster of hotspots does not inherently make them a cheater. They could have a great setup or legitimately have their units spread out in that cluster providing real coverage. We need other metrics to determine that. Most likely that would mean manual evaluation but if we don't have specific criteria then that raises the question if this deny list should even exist. (edited)
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zzeddd
Good point, fully agreed. It's frustrating to see many cheat miners, especially in NL and BE. Glad to hear updates are coming @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io . You're doing a great job!
lot's from china have migrated to Europe... but there are still some in china. like this: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13PVpaFceZejKQgsBZmbaBByhtidKAYkS5HN6V53YEM4ogRU9cA/hotspots (edited)
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for hip-40, I think it is important to avoid the abuse of reporting system. If I ran a normal miner and cheaters report me many times, if would be unfair to ban my miners
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HarveyXu
for hip-40, I think it is important to avoid the abuse of reporting system. If I ran a normal miner and cheaters report me many times, if would be unfair to ban my miners
Of course, but you would not be banned. Criteria to define cheating can be set
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here is a suspicious one, very aptly named!
12:16
checked on Google Earth and it doesn't seem possible he will see all those hotspots north of him
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12:16
comparing As witness vs As Transmitter
12:17
327 vs 17! Not realistic
12:19
his other hotspot, also aptly named Weasel, also suspicious
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Isn't this a decentralized project? Why do you care about other people's hot spots
facepalm 2
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Yeah, imagine what people could accomplish if they spent more time focused on improving their own setup rather than hunting down other units that earn more (edited)
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hangjghnv
Isn't this a decentralized project? Why do you care about other people's hot spots
spoofed or gamed spots add nothing to the network - while taking rewards while impacting the reputation of the network. This affects everyone negatively. (edited)
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backtran
spoofed or gamed spots add nothing to the network - while taking rewards while impacting the reputation of the network. This affects everyone negatively. (edited)
The project side should give the correct gameplay and criteria for judging cheating, otherwise it will be a centralized project
facepalm 1
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hangjghnv
The project side should give the correct gameplay and criteria for judging cheating, otherwise it will be a centralized project
What is the "project side"?
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Parylizer
Yeah, imagine what people could accomplish if they spent more time focused on improving their own setup rather than hunting down other units that earn more (edited)
spoofed spots from my experience dont usually earn a lot but taken together it adds up.. A lot of the allegations of high earning spots is just jealousy or misunderstanding though.
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backtran
spoofed spots from my experience dont usually earn a lot but taken together it adds up.. A lot of the allegations of high earning spots is just jealousy or misunderstanding though.
That's how they usually end up on suspots 😆
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Sloth
That's how they usually end up on suspots 😆
What's the URL for that again?
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who owns this website?
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10:01
Suspots is a Helium hotspot reporting tool used to report suspected gamers.
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Edwin88
this cluster in NL: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13RV23YtStB8DsZj2UXKc6RLfvNpJqX8aMPzuGbRRLZLpFUyktU has started to earn a lot last week 4000 dollar in 7 days is really hard to swallow when I'm doing my best to find actual genuine good spots with lots of coverage makes me want to put my 22 miners I have in some shed and do the same since there is no-one even trying to stop me 😦
Yeah when those clusters first arrived, helium said: well they dont earn much anyway. Buy now the cluster had found some ways to increase earnings.
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backtran
spoofed spots from my experience dont usually earn a lot but taken together it adds up.. A lot of the allegations of high earning spots is just jealousy or misunderstanding though.
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god damn
10:59
that's really a shame
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/11/2022 11:41 AM
radrob made it
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12:11
I reported mine the ones I posted above there but they don't show up
12:11
do they need to be validated to appear?
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cdturri
do they need to be validated to appear?
No it should be instant. DM me the addresses and I’ll see what’s up
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This guy start 6 hotspots all at the exact same time just 4 hours ago and so far he got 4 hnt! Is this normal? https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13i8deriAhyxfmPYyHXoXDTa1rjB5PbGG1QhbEFaGkXiDVKY3Ud/hotspots
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meazer
This guy start 6 hotspots all at the exact same time just 4 hours ago and so far he got 4 hnt! Is this normal? https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13i8deriAhyxfmPYyHXoXDTa1rjB5PbGG1QhbEFaGkXiDVKY3Ud/hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 3:58 PM
This is for discussing the HIP. #poc-discussion Would be the correct channel for this. 🙂
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Distinct-Bumblebee-7 01/11/2022 5:28 PM
there's no way this formation of Hotspots is natural either, just check this one "Macho Aquamarine Puma"
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Distinct-Bumblebee-7
there's no way this formation of Hotspots is natural either, just check this one "Macho Aquamarine Puma"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/11/2022 5:33 PM
Again, this channel is not for reporting sus hotspots.
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Distinct-Bumblebee-7 01/11/2022 5:34 PM
ok, got it
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very slippery hip, dunno how false-positive will be handled ? another type of gaming will commence where those gamers will start reporting other hotspots to eliminated them from certain hexes.. this will become a mess.
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being
very slippery hip, dunno how false-positive will be handled ? another type of gaming will commence where those gamers will start reporting other hotspots to eliminated them from certain hexes.. this will become a mess.
ShadowBanned 01/11/2022 11:09 PM
false positives need to be receive compensation equal to their losses.. this should be a minimum requirement.
23:10
I agree, this could become a mess quickly.
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No need for this hip anymore, since helium went away and implemented it already😂
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If we buy second-hand equipment and it is blacklisted, how can we solve it,
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hangjghnv
The project side should give the correct gameplay and criteria for judging cheating, otherwise it will be a centralized project
It's very decentralized if community members can bring forward improvement proposals like this hip and hip-42 to fight cheating. What you are saying is centralized 😅 . As backtran says, it impacts both the reputation of the network as well as all honest miners. (edited)
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zzeddd
It's very decentralized if community members can bring forward improvement proposals like this hip and hip-42 to fight cheating. What you are saying is centralized 😅 . As backtran says, it impacts both the reputation of the network as well as all honest miners. (edited)
Yeah this hip is the definition of decentralization😂😂
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Hi iam trying to vote for Maintain Temporary Hotspot Denylist ..but my transaction keeps failing🙄. Have enough hnt in my wallet. Error is invalid, bad nonce
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Love this, lets go
01:31
Swing the HNT banhammer over these gaming fools
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
radrob made it
neat
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Can anyone vote to maintain the list of blocked miners? Even those on that list? Even the owners of Chinese farms, who own a lot of HNT and therefore their voting power is higher? Do you realize that the chances of a fair vote do not exist?
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Vote 1: Maintain Temporary Hotspot Denylist: https://heliumvote.com/14iwaexUYUe5taFgb5hx2BZw74z3TSyonRLYyZU1RbddV4bJest Vote 2: Publish Temporary Hotspot Denylist: https://heliumvote.com/13wCuq7XGnc4xgxPAc9n9ragKsRfmH9t9jB3c1smfKPZWSikZkd I vote a big Aye! for both 🙂 (edited)
As the Helium Network has grown, so too has the prevalence of malicious activity and institutional cheating. This activity seeks to game the system with the sole intent of exploiting Proof-of-Coverage rewards without providing any real value to the network. Should Helium, Inc continue to temporarily manage the denylist that is embedded in miner...
As the Helium Network has grown, so too has the prevalence of malicious activity and institutional cheating. This activity seeks to game the system with the sole intent of exploiting Proof-of-Coverage rewards without providing any real value to the network. Should Helium Inc. publish the current denylist even though it may allow existing gaming...
helium 1
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@Marcximus you posted same links 🙂
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bandiT
@Marcximus you posted same links 🙂
Thank you mate, updated now
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KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 2:29 AM
My hotspot (only changes, a 6dbi abtenna instead of the normal antenna and placed outside, with a 5m kabel) is flat since 12h. Any chance it has sth to do with that list?
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KlausKlausKlaus
My hotspot (only changes, a 6dbi abtenna instead of the normal antenna and placed outside, with a 5m kabel) is flat since 12h. Any chance it has sth to do with that list?
Power Off before antenna changes ?
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KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 2:38 AM
Yes of course. The flat line did't come with the antenna change. I changed the antenna 2 weeks ago and made about 0,5 HNT and now since 14h nothing... no beacons send, no witnesses, no challeneges
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ToriMa
Power Off before antenna changes ?
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 2:39 AM
This denylist bans hotspots right?
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KlausKlausKlaus
This denylist bans hotspots right?
not yet, as i know
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KlausKlausKlaus
Yes of course. The flat line did't come with the antenna change. I changed the antenna 2 weeks ago and made about 0,5 HNT and now since 14h nothing... no beacons send, no witnesses, no challeneges
check your setup, miner status...
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ToriMa
not yet, as i know
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 2:40 AM
Okay
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ToriMa
check your setup, miner status...
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 2:41 AM
Seems everything to be okay. Ping test works etc...
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ale / BV
Can anyone vote to maintain the list of blocked miners? Even those on that list? Even the owners of Chinese farms, who own a lot of HNT and therefore their voting power is higher? Do you realize that the chances of a fair vote do not exist?
do they own a lot of HNT? Looking at the wallets they tend to liquidate pretty quickly.
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How do you know if you are on the denylist? Or what is the consequence? I don't understand the Publish Temporary Hotspot Denylist because if you are on the list, you would probably feel the consequences, so you would know you are on the list, right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 4:10 AM
right now there is a way to look it up
04:10
the current list, to be clear is not hip 40 tho
04:10
hip 40 sets out to do it publically and only when validators agree to the lists, not this temporary way to combat gaming
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It's really good to see the reaction of Helium against these gamers. Many of us nearly lose the belief of the functionality of the project. Thank you very much @capcom for the announcement ❤️ (edited)
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Glad to hear. Sorry for the mistakes there
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pidgey
How do you know if you are on the denylist? Or what is the consequence? I don't understand the Publish Temporary Hotspot Denylist because if you are on the list, you would probably feel the consequences, so you would know you are on the list, right?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 4:18 AM
GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
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is it temporary or forever in the blacklist
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the first one on the list is still doing PoC activity, so what's the effect of being on the list exactly?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 4:37 AM
its hard to tell from the outside but basically you might only see 1 or none witnesses in a day
04:38
witness receipts are dropped by the challenger, if your hotspot was on the list
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aha ok... so activity should be greatly reduced
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 4:39 AM
theres a new checker
04:40
A site to check if your hotspot was possibly blacklisted by Helium.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its hard to tell from the outside but basically you might only see 1 or none witnesses in a day
sir, what if we brought the second hand miner which in the list, what can we do
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Marcximus
Vote 1: Maintain Temporary Hotspot Denylist: https://heliumvote.com/14iwaexUYUe5taFgb5hx2BZw74z3TSyonRLYyZU1RbddV4bJest Vote 2: Publish Temporary Hotspot Denylist: https://heliumvote.com/13wCuq7XGnc4xgxPAc9n9ragKsRfmH9t9jB3c1smfKPZWSikZkd I vote a big Aye! for both 🙂 (edited)
HNT.solutions 01/12/2022 4:43 AM
Vote transactions are failing for reason: {invalid,bad_nonce}. What to do? 🤷‍♂️
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Question about the vote: It says "Maintain" denylist. Is it already online?
04:44
Or is this vote about HIP40
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LOSTGE
sir, what if we brought the second hand miner which in the list, what can we do
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 4:47 AM
Wait
04:47
The shadowlist is being dropped in the next firmware update today
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so these hotspot will be removed out of denylist tomorrow?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 5:01 AM
Yes when the update rolls out to everyone
05:01
The challenger needs updated firmware to not use the list
05:01
So it may take a day or more to settle out and see the deny list removed fully
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capcom
Glad to hear. Sorry for the mistakes there
👍 No mercy for cheaters. It's a general ethic behavior and everyone must face the result of stealing somehow.
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so is that mean the hotspot in the list become totally rubbish?
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will this update make all of the RAK hotspots resync again for 3 days? if so, can we get a snapshot manually blessed before the push?
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Marcximus
Vote 1: Maintain Temporary Hotspot Denylist: https://heliumvote.com/14iwaexUYUe5taFgb5hx2BZw74z3TSyonRLYyZU1RbddV4bJest Vote 2: Publish Temporary Hotspot Denylist: https://heliumvote.com/13wCuq7XGnc4xgxPAc9n9ragKsRfmH9t9jB3c1smfKPZWSikZkd I vote a big Aye! for both 🙂 (edited)
Let's be honest, these two votes are really "Tell Helium it's OK to take direct action in secret without community involvement." Unfortunately, they're written up in a very misleading way that makes them seem like they're actually about anti-gaming (which is a distant second issue here).
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:15 AM
Anti gamings why they're doing it
06:15
Most were gaming farms
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Anti gamings why they're doing it
These two specific votes are only needed because they acted prematurely and got caught.
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gtelnet
will this update make all of the RAK hotspots resync again for 3 days? if so, can we get a snapshot manually blessed before the push?
or wrong place to ask?
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is this file for real?
06:26
GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:26 AM
Yes
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44k banned hotspots?
06:27
10%!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:27 AM
Not 10% of earnings tho
06:27
Just 10% of hotspots
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cdturri
44k banned hotspots?
But don't worry, we have 48 hours to vote to say it was peachy-keen (and those votes are looking likely to win)
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what's the point in voting to keep it secret then!?
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Vote was set up before this list was published
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who maintains this list? how do you get in? how do you get out?
06:28
Not very decentralised...
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Are you asking about hip 40?
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cdturri
who maintains this list? how do you get in? how do you get out?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:28 AM
Yep, that's why the votes in
06:28
There is no in and out it's ml, and the votes to keep it or not and or publish it
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Well I wasn't aware there was even a list! I thought this HIP was the first attempt at blocking cheaters
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:29 AM
Untill hip40 is ready to do it publically (edited)
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cdturri
Well I wasn't aware there was even a list! I thought this HIP was the first attempt at blocking cheaters
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:29 AM
I was none the wiser either
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I suggest reading the write up in #announcements @cdturri
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at the end of the day all these attempts at decentralisation always fall through the sidelines...
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Joey
I suggest reading the write up in #announcements @cdturri
I have
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Fizzy should have more power as court jester.
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The problem is not that they took action, the problem is that they didn't tell or ask the community. And they didn't build any safe guards to handle cases of incorrect bans. It makes this HIP a joke and it's disrespectful to the people that were investing time working on it.
✅ 1
06:38
And having a vote now seems like a joke. Why couldn't they announce the need for immediate action and vote there and then?
06:40
Most people are honest and hate cheaters. I do. I would have gladly vote for these measures. But acting without transparency, even with the best intentions, is never good. Trust is build or destroyed on actions.
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06:42
Anyway I don't want to demoralise anyone working on this HIP and perhaps this is not the right place to vent my frustration. I do know that people involved in this HIP have the ability to pass on feedback to Helium so I do hope they learn their lesson...
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cdturri
Anyway I don't want to demoralise anyone working on this HIP and perhaps this is not the right place to vent my frustration. I do know that people involved in this HIP have the ability to pass on feedback to Helium so I do hope they learn their lesson...
Unfortunately, I think the lesson the community is teaching Helium is that it's OK to utterly betray the governance model because there won't be any accountability. I hope I'm wrong, but the votes make me think I'm not.
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Well I disagree. For a start I can guarantee you most people are unaware of the controversy, the black list, etc. And even if they were most would vote to ban cheaters, I have voted for even though I don't like the way things were done.
06:53
What we should do perhaps is to create another HIP to create another vote to make it absolutely certain that no changes impacting hotspots owners or earnings should be ever implemented without a prior public vote
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cdturri
Well I disagree. For a start I can guarantee you most people are unaware of the controversy, the black list, etc. And even if they were most would vote to ban cheaters, I have voted for even though I don't like the way things were done.
Why would you vote in support of the secret, centralized denylist instead of pushing for HIP-40 to be enacted? Why give them this get-out-of-trouble-free card?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:53 AM
Because it's already targeting something like 40k gamers
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exactly
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:53 AM
There were a few caught in the crosshairs
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cdturri
What we should do perhaps is to create another HIP to create another vote to make it absolutely certain that no changes impacting hotspots owners or earnings should be ever implemented without a prior public vote
If the HIP process can so easily be ignored, why would yet another HIP help anything?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:54 AM
But the bug was found (edited)
06:54
If it comes back it'll only target legit gamers
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If it comes back it'll only target legit gamers
What process is in place to determine that?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:54 AM
And tide us over to hip40
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Thomas S
What process is in place to determine that?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:54 AM
It's ml
06:55
No person as such
06:55
It targets RF meta data
06:55
A math error was found that meant some legit hotspots got targeted
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My point is...if this is the system the community wants, then they should put together a proposal and vote on it.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:55 AM
That's what hip40 is
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Yeah, I know.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:55 AM
So we either deny what their doing now (edited)
06:56
Let 40k gamers back on
06:56
Or keep it till hip40
06:56
The list has been dropped in the latest firmware
06:56
So we're about to have a week of crappy earnings
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We absolutely must denounce Helium acting without governance, or what is the point of HIPs?
06:57
The CEO getting impatient is not a reason to ignore the process.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So we're about to have a week of crappy earnings
which one is that?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The list has been dropped in the latest firmware
which one is that?
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cdturri
which one is that?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:58 AM
The shadow ban list
06:58
It's been removed
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cdturri
which one is that?
They're rolling back the (until recently) secret denylist until the vote approves it being used.
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which firmware
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:58 AM
New firmware later today
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I instsalled amd64_2022.01.11.0 last night
06:59
does that have the list or not?
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cdturri
I instsalled amd64_2022.01.11.0 last night
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:59 AM
The challenger needs to get it
06:59
The challenger was dropping witness receipts
06:59
So we won't see effects untill everyone gets it
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I know but my question still stands, does amd64_2022.01.11.0 have the list or not?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 6:59 AM
No
06:59
No list in that one
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How bout a hip here when Helium breaks community trust, they must surrender 1 HST to all current hotspot wallets. ;3
🤣 3
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hahaha
07:00
be realistic
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Should we anticipate seeing 'hotspots earning more than 1 HNT' increase dramatically over the next few days once all the list removal takes affect and gamers are back to their tricks?
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gtelnet
Should we anticipate seeing 'hotspots earning more than 1 HNT' increase dramatically over the next few days once all the list removal takes affect and gamers are back to their tricks?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:01 AM
Yeah the clusters and gamers will be back (edited)
07:02
Some gamers have turned their units off tho
07:02
So it's hard to say how much were going to be effected
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will def be interesting to see the stats and how it affects everyone else
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:03 AM
I will say
07:03
If the hip process is too slow, that they felt like they had to do it in the shadows
07:03
The hip process needs to change
07:03
It's too slow
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I think decentralisation is a utopia and never really works, there is always something and someone in control. Check this post by Moxie Marlinspike, the inventor of Signal about Web3 and NFTs https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
Despite considering myself a cryptographer, I have not found myself particularly drawn to “crypto.” I don’t think I’ve ever actually said the words “get off my lawn,” but I’m much more likely to click on Pepperidge Farm Remembers flavored memes about how “crypto” used to mean “cryptography” than ...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If the hip process is too slow, that they felt like they had to do it in the shadows
Yeah, every cheater has a justification for their actions. Doesn't make it right.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I will say
TheCamel_Sensecap 01/12/2022 7:04 AM
I have to ask, how does your cheek feel this morning... from that slap you woke up to?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:04 AM
Well disappointed to be honest
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TheCamel_Sensecap
I have to ask, how does your cheek feel this morning... from that slap you woke up to?
Don't be hard on Neil, he is helping a lot
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:05 AM
I ran with 40 because the community wanted it and someone needed to champion it
07:05
Only to find they already had a list behind my back
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TheCamel_Sensecap 01/12/2022 7:05 AM
I am not being hard on him at all, if anything thing I am behind his plight
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keep up the great work @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io, this too shall pass and we'll all learn from it
partyparrot 2
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TheCamel_Sensecap
I am not being hard on him at all, if anything thing I am behind his plight
There is no point in rubbing it. I am sure Neil will pass his feedback too
07:06
Now we need to figure out how to move forward
07:06
in the best possible way
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:06 AM
I hate to say it but everything helium and Dewi do is in private, Its not the first time I've bought this up, we only get told things at the last minute when the hip goes live in a community call
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07:07
There's no real community involvement and these things get slapped at us and we have to process them quickly whilst in the background they've been working on them for ages
07:12
I liked the governance model that was presented
07:12
Working groups
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07:12
Open view rooms for discussion
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07:12
But it's not made its way in to culture yet
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So HIP40 was discussed, helium/dewi got tired of democracy and created their own centralized denylist, now they are asking if it's ok for them to keep it and if it should be made public (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Well disappointed to be honest
Now I understand what happened. Ooof that must have hurt. Sorry to hear that
07:25
That might turn out to be quite the backstab to HIP40 because it replaces it directly right?
07:26
It replaces it with a non ideal centralized version of HIP40 at least...
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TheJWays
That might turn out to be quite the backstab to HIP40 because it replaces it directly right?
Yeah, I suspect a lot of support for HIP40 is sucked away by this because the general masses don't particularly care how gamed setups are removed, just that they are.
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my take: if you're just here to chase the new hotness/rewards, you'll move on and not care in a week. But if you're here because you're a true believer, then this really really sucks and no amount of apology tours by certain individuals is going to make up for it.
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TheJWays
It replaces it with a non ideal centralized version of HIP40 at least...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:30 AM
They're asking via vote to keep this untill hip40 is ready
07:30
And to accelerate hip40 becoming a reality
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The current deny list doesn't include any reasons, just who is denied right?
07:32
Yeah I know, in that vote they say
Should Helium Inc. publish the current denylist even though it may allow existing gaming hotspots to change their setups to avoid being detected?
Which doesn't make sense to me if there is no reasoning in that list
07:32
Gamers will see their rewards drop and know something happened, they don't need to see their hotspot in a list to realize that
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07:34
Seems to me like they are really trying to convince us to let them do secretive stuff
07:35
Also is there any information how the current denylist is generated and maintained?
07:35
Is it recalculated to account for hotspots changing hands? (edited)
07:36
Is it entirely ai generated or are there people looking over the list?
07:36
I'm all for anti-gaming but this just does not seem like the way to do it
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webbgamers
Is it recalculated to account for hotspots changing hands? (edited)
They have a data analyst I believe.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:40 AM
I'd like to have the list still
07:40
Most of its intended contents are ganging farms in china
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GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
07:41
not "official" mind you.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:42 AM
Tim built a web app
07:43
A site to check if your hotspot was possibly blacklisted by Helium.
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seems like we also need a way to have a verified/signed build process/image to guarantee what is in git is what is in the images we are downloading onto our hardware
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:43 AM
You can lookup hotspot address
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otherwise, what prevents this sorta thing from happening again?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:43 AM
Think they said the list was 38k? Cap said around the 40k mark
yolo 2
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38-40K? damn.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
clearly all the code that runs the service needs to be open sourced.
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Looks like we finally get the answer to the question of how big the cheating problem is 🙂
07:45
A little less than 10% it seems
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:46 AM
Like we said in last night's livestream, we thought 5%, we didn't account for the 40k already being blocked
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I missed that stream unfortunately
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Think they said the list was 38k? Cap said around the 40k mark
beechball_45424 01/12/2022 7:46 AM
This is crazy AF!
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How long has this blocklist been in place?
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"December"
07:47
at least that's what cap said in the announcement?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:48 AM
november
07:48
one sec
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Think they said the list was 38k? Cap said around the 40k mark
The list I posted has 35422 hotspots. I verified every hotspot in the blockchain
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synfinatic
at least that's what cap said in the announcement?
And we know we can trust him!
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well he's been so honest in the past!
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07:48
also: if I wanted to trust people... maybe the blockchain isn't for you.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
november
Might it be connected to the Jump in the Number of Hotspot-Curve which is also around that time?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 7:49 AM
2021.10.25.0
07:49
had a deny list in it
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lol: "However, in December network gaming grew to a point where I felt that honest hotspot hosts, and the integrity of the network, were at a material risk. At my instruction, I asked Helium Inc. developers to build a network protection mechanism to prevent malicious actors and other forms of institutional gaming from stealing any more rewards." So I guess cap has a time machine now?
lolsob 2
07:51
dude has been holding out on us the entire time!
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So HIP40 was going too slow...basically when it took any time at all.
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When will this vote be?
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mfosbrooke
When will this vote be?
If you mean the vote on letting Cap's secret project keep going, that's almost 25% over: https://www.heliumvote.com/14iwaexUYUe5taFgb5hx2BZw74z3TSyonRLYyZU1RbddV4bJest
As the Helium Network has grown, so too has the prevalence of malicious activity and institutional cheating. This activity seeks to game the system with the sole intent of exploiting Proof-of-Coverage rewards without providing any real value to the network. Should Helium, Inc continue to temporarily manage the denylist that is embedded in miner...
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And instead of funneling resources into HIP40 to help the community, they spent the time to develop their own denylist
07:53
The community was too slow so instead of helping they just went around it (edited)
07:54
Not a good look for "the people's network"
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Mods can we get this pinned in here? AFAICT it's the first real effort toward an implementation, and it at least a good starting point for discussion.
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Dave T
Mods can we get this pinned in here? AFAICT it's the first real effort toward an implementation, and it at least a good starting point for discussion.
Can you write a quick post explaining it like you just did with a link? I’ll pin that.
🙏 1
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Joey
Can you write a quick post explaining it like you just did with a link? I’ll pin that.
@Radrob would you like the honors, since you're the author? While we're at it, is there a GitHub? I'd like to discuss something, but don't want to pollute here 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Tim built a web app
szfangjing1999 01/12/2022 7:59 AM
I come from China and bought second-hand BOBCAT hotspots last week. Unfortunately, The hotspots can be founded in the blacklist. What is the way to remove my hotspots from the blacklist? I'm really unlucky....
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szfangjing1999
I come from China and bought second-hand BOBCAT hotspots last week. Unfortunately, The hotspots can be founded in the blacklist. What is the way to remove my hotspots from the blacklist? I'm really unlucky....
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:00 AM
the list is being dropped in tonights firmware release
08:00
leave it a day or so and it should be back
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the list is being dropped in tonights firmware release
Speaking of pinning things....
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the list is being dropped in tonights firmware release
Regardless of the vote?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:00 AM
yeah
08:00
its already been removed in yesterdays firmware
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(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:00 AM
which is going out tonight
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the list is being dropped in tonights firmware release
szfangjing1999 01/12/2022 8:00 AM
Thanks
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:01 AM
we'll have a week of gamers on the network
08:01
although cap said, quite a few had powered down
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Dave T
@Radrob would you like the honors, since you're the author? While we're at it, is there a GitHub? I'd like to discuss something, but don't want to pollute here 🙂
Fwiw that discussion would be very on-topic.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we'll have a week of gamers on the network
Saying it like that makes it sound like cap and Helium's actions were OK. They weren't. They could have easily gotten a vote to allow them to temporarily ban apparently cheaters at their discretion pending a community-built solution. But they chose to just flip off the community. The system will be restored for a week, and if the vote passes then Helium will re-enable their shadow ban list.
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Do we know how this list was compiled? For instance, if you have a good setup in your area and are earning say 80-120% above the average in your area... is there a chance of being added to it? Cannot find any documentation on how this list was compiled other than it just was and it's being implemented.
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Thomas S
Saying it like that makes it sound like cap and Helium's actions were OK. They weren't. They could have easily gotten a vote to allow them to temporarily ban apparently cheaters at their discretion pending a community-built solution. But they chose to just flip off the community. The system will be restored for a week, and if the vote passes then Helium will re-enable their shadow ban list.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:03 AM
trust me, im as shocked as you
08:04
i mean, my names on this hip to start lists
08:04
and there already is one?
lolsob 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
trust me, im as shocked as you
Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise. Just encouraging you to consider your messaging. (edited)
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Joey
Fwiw that discussion would be very on-topic.
Thanks 🙂 The awkward part is that my question actually relates to #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit 🤪 (edited)
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I would like to clarify a question I had around this. When “gaming” is referenced as part of this HIP, is it referring to people who have good setups that produce 1 Hnt a day per hotspot since it is far above the network average, or is it looking for people that are making much more than that cause they have x number of IoT devices in their backyard that are transferring data across their hotspot?
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioDo you know the rules of the blacklist?
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I asked something similar, seems to be quiet in that regard 😄
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0xTung
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioDo you know the rules of the blacklist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:13 AM
i didnt know about it at all
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I guess they don't wana give up the secret otherwise people can try to circumvent.
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0xTung
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioDo you know the rules of the blacklist?
🤣 1
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0xTung
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioDo you know the rules of the blacklist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:13 AM
from what i understand, its ML looking at meta data of RF
08:13
but there was a maths bug that meant honest hotspots got targeted
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DO we know if there is a process to appeal?
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that's the data. not the rules 🙂
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Jerotire
DO we know if there is a process to appeal?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:13 AM
there is not
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So it's been proven they can make a mistake.. and well if you're on it. Then tough buy another miner 😄
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no, then you sell it to some other poor sap
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The three second-hand machines I bought a week ago have been blacklisted and the seller won't give me a refund.
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Shame we had to find out the way we did. There's been background work without transparency, and got caught after messing up and now there's been a s$$itstorm 🙂
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you can't prove they were banlisted... because there wasn't a ban list!
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So, if it’s looking at RF metadata and it is witnessing beacons for a given location but not beaconing for that same location (maybe moved and didn’t reassert location?) then it’s possible to be banned? Just trying to understand if my legitimate hotspots in prime locations are at risk because they produce a good amount of Hnt vs the network average.
08:25
The only thing I can think of would be a hotspot that’s asserted in a location more optimal for rewards, like a neighboring hex that has a 1.0 transmit scale vs a .5. Or, moving the miner to a new location and not reasserting the location.
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if you're banned then you get 0 HNT. unlikely you will know how "at risk" you are, since they are unlikely to publish the algorithm/check logic.
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From the announcement
We have no desire to moderate a denylist unless entrusted with this role by the community through a governance process, and we have no desire to keep code proprietary, which is why we’re planning to open source everything—including the set of analysis scripts used today and data infrastructure that manages the denylist—after the self-regulating community process is in place.
08:31
So "they are planning" on releasing their anti-gaming algorithms
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"soon". based on how many lies and half-truths, I'll believe it when I see it. I suspect they'll "do more analysis" and decide "it's not in the best intresets"
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Would not be surprised
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nothing is preventing them from doing it right now
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Exactly lmao, if you're planning to release it why not just release it
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"oh wait, we wanna clean up^H^H^H^H^H^H^H fix this code"
08:34
i suspect they realize the code is horribad and if they publish it then they'll look even worse than they do now. if for no other reason people who were running legit miners and got banned are going to point out the "obvious" mistake that lead to that false positive
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Security by obscurity is not how things should be done
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:35 AM
If they hadn't have made a mistake in the code we may not have noticed it
10k 1
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08:35
I don't like that at all
💯 1
08:35
It would have been in and I assume revealed when hip40 was ready
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as a security person, i get. but also if you draw a bright line showing where good is vs bad, then the bad guys will shift to just over that line and then you play cat & mouse games. it's a legit hard problem.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:37 AM
I'm tracking hotspots all the time watching them go , wondering how
08:37
Assumed it was some seed changes
08:37
Blocking access
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Dave T
@Radrob would you like the honors, since you're the author? While we're at it, is there a GitHub? I'd like to discuss something, but don't want to pollute here 🙂
In order for the community to share hotspots that appear to be gaming, I wrote https://suspots.com so that the community can report them. To report a hotspot, it must have two or more gaming behaviors. Important to note that nothing is currently done with this data. It is data gathering and reporting only. Also important to know that anyone can report any hotspot so I know legitimate hotspots will end up on this list.
Suspots is a Helium hotspot reporting tool used to report suspected gamers.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pinned a message to this channel. 01/12/2022 8:39 AM
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Dave T
@Radrob would you like the honors, since you're the author? While we're at it, is there a GitHub? I'd like to discuss something, but don't want to pollute here 🙂
I do not currently have the code repo public. I might in the future. Just DM me with thoughts or questions
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@Radrob so you generate a list for implementation, but how is this list derived? Is each hotspot individually checked for gaming behaviour? What constitutes as gaming behaviour? Just seems to be a black box (and one which can essentially block people participating). And there is no documentation or process for appeals.
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PsychoShaft 01/12/2022 8:42 AM
No appeal process why? maybe some miners might get banned legitimately?
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Jerotire
@Radrob so you generate a list for implementation, but how is this list derived? Is each hotspot individually checked for gaming behaviour? What constitutes as gaming behaviour? Just seems to be a black box (and one which can essentially block people participating). And there is no documentation or process for appeals.
PsychoShaft 01/12/2022 8:43 AM
its a very valid question.
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Jerotire
@Radrob so you generate a list for implementation, but how is this list derived? Is each hotspot individually checked for gaming behaviour? What constitutes as gaming behaviour? Just seems to be a black box (and one which can essentially block people participating). And there is no documentation or process for appeals.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:44 AM
its just a public place to post hostspots and behaviour thats seen as gaming, just so we have somewhere to look at and investigate
08:44
not that it'll be used
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Radrob
In order for the community to share hotspots that appear to be gaming, I wrote https://suspots.com so that the community can report them. To report a hotspot, it must have two or more gaming behaviors. Important to note that nothing is currently done with this data. It is data gathering and reporting only. Also important to know that anyone can report any hotspot so I know legitimate hotspots will end up on this list.
Thanks for this, I see the behaviors listed for the reported hotspots. The one that concerns me is the “HIGH_REWARDS” behavior and those reported are making 1.0 Hnt+ in 24hr. Some of mine do too because of prime locations.
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So that gist is not the banlist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:45 AM
thats not a banlist at this stage no, its an open web endpoint anyone can submit to
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Jerotire
@Radrob so you generate a list for implementation, but how is this list derived? Is each hotspot individually checked for gaming behaviour? What constitutes as gaming behaviour? Just seems to be a black box (and one which can essentially block people participating). And there is no documentation or process for appeals.
suspots is not affiliated in ANY WAY with the Helium list. It is simply a place to report hotspots so that we can start to see patterns. My plan was to be able to take this data and provide it to Helium so they can think through possible ways to stop certain behaviors
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:45 AM
rob could choose to run ML against it score and submit a list for hip40 tho
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Allows you to check if your hotspot was banned by Helium Inc for violation of non-existing rules - GitHub - FezzFest/check-helium-bannedlist: Allows you to check if your hotspot was banned by Heliu...
08:46
Allows you to check if your hotspot is banned by Helium Inc for violation of non-existing rules. Update: use blacklist.longap.community or @ricopt5's exhaustive list of hotspots to verify whether you're affected.
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nexic
Thanks for this, I see the behaviors listed for the reported hotspots. The one that concerns me is the “HIGH_REWARDS” behavior and those reported are making 1.0 Hnt+ in 24hr. Some of mine do too because of prime locations.
high rewards by itself is not indicative of gaming. Thats why you have to put in two behaviors
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Radrob
high rewards by itself is not indicative of gaming. Thats why you have to put in two behaviors
Got it, thanks!
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Jerotire
So that gist is not the banlist?
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 8:47 AM
So if I do not stand on that list but still have no activity since 20h is it still possible thag this is due to the denylist?
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KlausKlausKlaus
So if I do not stand on that list but still have no activity since 20h is it still possible thag this is due to the denylist?
Seems like it.
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KlausKlausKlaus
So if I do not stand on that list but still have no activity since 20h is it still possible thag this is due to the denylist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:47 AM
unlikely related then, remember you can have syncing issues too (edited)
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Jerotire
Seems like it.
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 8:48 AM
Do you have the same issue or know sb who has the same issue?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
unlikely related then, remember you can have syncing issues too (edited)
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 8:49 AM
Okay, but 2 of my hotspots stop all activity about 20h ago and both are standing one complety diffrent lications. So I think it is a very stange coincident
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KlausKlausKlaus
Okay, but 2 of my hotspots stop all activity about 20h ago and both are standing one complety diffrent lications. So I think it is a very stange coincident
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:49 AM
check the list then for hotspot names
08:49
also sounds like you need to run a bluetooth diagnostics
08:49
check sync height
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
check the list then for hotspot names
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 8:50 AM
They are not on the Gist list :(
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:50 AM
then its likely unrelated
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
also sounds like you need to run a bluetooth diagnostics
KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 8:51 AM
I don't habe phisical access to the miners in the moment that's the problem
08:51
Are there any immer ways to check the High?
08:51
*hight
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:52 AM
nope everywhere else relies on gossip
08:52
bluetooth diagnostics asks your miner directly (edited)
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KlausKlausKlaus 01/12/2022 8:52 AM
Okay, thanks for your help :))
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io to be clear, a "blacklist" should be removed in the next miner release? All not working hotspots should work ok? I ask because all of my hotspots are on this list. I have very good points in my town and get big rewards but now it flatlined...
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gigi
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io to be clear, a "blacklist" should be removed in the next miner release? All not working hotspots should work ok? I ask because all of my hotspots are on this list. I have very good points in my town and get big rewards but now it flatlined...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 8:59 AM
the shadow denylist has been removed from the latest firmware, slated for release today
09:00
if the list comes back (by vote) they have said the next release will have it, minus the false targeting caused by a maths error in their selection code
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GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 9:00 AM
so if your hotspots are legit, no middleman, no fake data
09:00
they will stay on if(when) the list comes back
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
so if your hotspots are legit, no middleman, no fake data
When you say middleman, are you referring to a hosting company?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 9:02 AM
no as in injected code in your miner software
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io ok, but this list will be build with a new data?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 9:06 AM
the same as before, minus the bug
09:06
that selected legit hotspots, diy being amongst them (edited)
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TBH, 20hrs of no activity does happen sometimes. Some hotspots seem to get "wedged", where power cycling fixes the problem. It's not often but it has happened to me to various ones. I did some light investigation early and decided it was some interaction with the Internet gateway and UPnP, port forwarding, dhcp leases. But that's just a slightly educated guess. I've got one that falls off the network every month or so, the Internet connection there is crap, goes up and down often, quickly enough that if you were using it to browse the web you may not notice much, or it would come back withing 30-60s, but it seems to be confusing the hotspot.
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When will today's blacklist be removed?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 9:13 AM
when the firmware goes out
09:13
that'll be today from what i hear, we then will need to wait for other manufacturers to release it
09:13
and for the update to settle out to see the denylist removed (edited)
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Don't we need to wait for the polls to close?
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the polls is to re-introduce it. the denylist should never of been there in the first place
09:20
basically, it's getting removed because they got caught. now they're asking permission.
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that said, I really don't get the second half of capcom's statement: "Should Helium, Inc. publish the current denylist even though it may allow existing gaming hotspots to change their setups to avoid being detected?" what, he thinks the gamers on the deny list haven't already figured it out? not like he is even proposing at this time to vote on the logic behind the list. I'm really at a loss to figure out what justification he has for suggesting there may be negative consequences on voting yes on the 2nd question.
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synfinatic
that said, I really don't get the second half of capcom's statement: "Should Helium, Inc. publish the current denylist even though it may allow existing gaming hotspots to change their setups to avoid being detected?" what, he thinks the gamers on the deny list haven't already figured it out? not like he is even proposing at this time to vote on the logic behind the list. I'm really at a loss to figure out what justification he has for suggesting there may be negative consequences on voting yes on the 2nd question.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 9:40 AM
In the announcement he mentioned revealing the selection and list (edited)
09:40
I think that's what's being voted on
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"revealing the selection"? selected nodes or selection criteria?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 9:41 AM
How they were selected and what was used
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can you point me at the part where he includes the selection critiera?
09:42
i honestly haven't seen it. i believe you... just their communication has been so bad on this, it's hard to keep everything straight
09:43
I don't see language on heliumvote.com for either question which suggests it
09:45
it seems to me, they are intentionally loading the question in an effort to influence the vote. I'm open to being wrong. I sorta hope I am, because this is not a good accusation to make.
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synfinatic
can you point me at the part where he includes the selection critiera?
#announcements
09:56
and we have no desire to keep code proprietary, which is why we’re planning to open source everything—including the set of analysis scripts used today and data infrastructure that manages the denylist—after the self-regulating community process is in place
So basically, when this HIP is approved, they will release their tools
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ricopt5
#announcements
i'm talking about the vote going on right now. not the HIP
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synfinatic
i'm talking about the vote going on right now. not the HIP
The votes are only for using or not the denylist, and if yes, if it should be published or not
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okay, then we're in agreement. my question is how does publishing that allow bad actors to game the system?
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synfinatic
okay, then we're in agreement. my question is how does publishing that allow bad actors to game the system?
They can check if they are banned or not, and if yes, try to change their tactics. If they are not able to check the banned list, they don't know if they are banned, so they will likely chase the usual p2p issues while still cheating
09:59
But I admin, now that everyone knows there's a list, everyone will always suspect they are banned, even if they can't 100% check (edited)
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they're earning 0 HNT and shutting down their nodes... haven't they figured it out???
10:00
now i guess there is no question anymore. so then they work harder to get around it? seems super tenuous at best. especially since they're selling their used devices and scamming people
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Yeah. Might as well just publish the list
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and now that the list is known to exist... it's kinda obivous
10:01
But I mean, the list will always be public now. Either it is published by Helium or the community will get it from the disassembled code
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so yeah, that's why i'm wondering why justification they have to suggest there are bad effects to voting yes on the 2nd question? this is literally how you game survey questions 101.
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@capcom In the context of blockchain and crypto one cornestone is that everything should be distributed and transparent, now additional govern layer been added in miners image to handle denials via denylist without any flag mechanism to make this visible for the users. I think it's really good to take action against gaming, but having a denylist where good hotspots can't identified if added to list by misstake is bad and going in the wrong direction (centralized control). I also think it's bad to release centralized control without the community knowledge, anything more released outside HIPs? (edited)
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What's happens when they are "banned"? Is their miner disabled or wallet banned etc? So basically, when a miner is on a validator's deny list the owner knows he's been reported and have the time to change his setup before conses group denies him. If he's not on the deny list he knows nobody caught him so far?
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Lee
What's happens when they are "banned"? Is their miner disabled or wallet banned etc? So basically, when a miner is on a validator's deny list the owner knows he's been reported and have the time to change his setup before conses group denies him. If he's not on the deny list he knows nobody caught him so far?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:25 AM
witness receipts were being dropped
10:25
so the miner looks like its working as normal
10:25
but the challenger checks a list to see if they were in it and deny it silently
10:26
so to the user if you trace logs, the hotspot side of the witness was fine, just never showed up
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But the gaming user will notice a drop in/zeroed rewards?
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Lee
But the gaming user will notice a drop in/zeroed rewards?
Yes
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
witness receipts were being dropped
Beacon receipts too, so the miner will transmit LoRa packets but will not be registered in the blockchain, so it's as if the miner has not beaconed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:32 AM
yeah
10:32
but some made it through
10:32
from manufacturers who built from source
10:32
they often had 1/2 witnesses a day sometimes
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ricopt5
Yes
So this means, if the earning dropped significantly and if the gamer have multiple hotspots with the same cheat, he can conclude that he's been caught /silently denied thus change his setup for the same miners. I think banning the miners altogether is more costly for them to come up with a new cheat? (edited)
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ricopt5
Beacon receipts too, so the miner will transmit LoRa packets but will not be registered in the blockchain, so it's as if the miner has not beaconed
Looking at my DIY logs, there was never a single beacon so I think that got filtered out before receipts. I think it never made it past targeting stage
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Radrob
Looking at my DIY logs, there was never a single beacon so I think that got filtered out before receipts. I think it never made it past targeting stage
orrr i guess my miner could have silenced itself 😦
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Radrob
orrr i guess my miner could have silenced itself 😦
Hard to know from the disassembled code, but I do know that both witnesses receipts and beacons receipts go through the same function, and so through the same check
10:38
Now that I think of it, there are miners that beacon but since their beacon receipt is silenced, there will be no poc receipt for that poc and so the witnesses of that "gamed" beacon, will also not earn anything.... 🤔 This explains why 50% of my miner witnessing end up with no poc receipt
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Lee
So this means, if the earning dropped significantly and if the gamer have multiple hotspots with the same cheat, he can conclude that he's been caught /silently denied thus change his setup for the same miners. I think banning the miners altogether is more costly for them to come up with a new cheat? (edited)
Well, yeah
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ricopt5
Now that I think of it, there are miners that beacon but since their beacon receipt is silenced, there will be no poc receipt for that poc and so the witnesses of that "gamed" beacon, will also not earn anything.... 🤔 This explains why 50% of my miner witnessing end up with no poc receipt
In which cases does a miner's Beacon become silenced if it's not on a denylist?
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Well how do you get off the list?
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10:42
That's the important question
10:47
Who removes the hotspot?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:47 AM
there wouldnt be a method
10:47
this would be in place until hip40 if voted in
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But what if someone is not guilty and stil inside it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:49 AM
the current denylist had an error, where it selected legit hotspots, without this bug we are told the list is very accurate, and will only select hotspots where the RF meta data is not correct (edited)
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Lee
In which cases does a miner's Beacon become silenced if it's not on a denylist?
I don't know
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:49 AM
they've not said much more understandably
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But who placed it in the first place i see my hotspot in it without any reason
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:50 AM
Machine Learning was used to select gamers from whats been said
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Shocking really
10:51
But gaming with 1 HS?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:51 AM
so its not some manual thing, the ML got a bug recently, which meant it selected a lot of DIY and legit hotspots
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Can someone remove them
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:51 AM
with a firmware release yes
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From helium?
10:52
Who to contact?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:52 AM
the list has been removed
10:52
we're getting new firmware without the list today
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So they will all be reactivated today
10:53
Untill hip 40
10:53
Comes in
10:53
Right sir?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:53 AM
depends on the vote
10:53
if its voted in, it'll be reinstated until hip 40 (edited)
10:53
https://blacklist.longap.community/ << you can look up if your on the list by the way
A site to check if your hotspot was possibly blacklisted by Helium.
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İ am
10:54
İt's crazy really
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:54 AM
please dont think i am accusing you, anything unsual about your setup? if there isn't then you'll likely be fine if its reinstated
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But it will be approved based on the vote till now
10:56
Which means i can better take off my devices
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:56 AM
so after todays release, you will be fine
10:56
and if its voted back, i think in a weeks time or so, you'll likely be fine again, if you have no signs of gaming
10:57
if your legit, you wont be effected again
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Sir if it goes through the vote will the ban stay or not?
10:57
İf not gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:58 AM
the ban goes for a week, its tied to firmware releases so its being removed tonight, if the vote is yes, then next release it'll likey be re-added
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 10:58 AM
ML is like that tho, it can be a black box
10:59
but, at this stage, i agree with the list, i dont agree on how it was done, but i think it should stay (minus the bug) untill hip40
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Well, capcom did say their algorithm is 100% accurate
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 11:01 AM
Project: Adaptive Network Modeling using Graph-Based Representations Elevator Pitch: Helium&#39;s Blockchain API is an effective way to view historical data stored on-chain, but the ledger-base...
11:01
but my belief is that is whats being used
11:03
Using blockchain data to extract insights about network coverage and “suspicious” hotspots
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Also, I'm not sure they are using ML for this, I think it's just some math on the packet data to get a signature out of it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 11:05 AM
if
11:06
the timeline looks very similar to what we've seen
11:06
and if you look cap said about 2 parts
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and if you look cap said about 2 parts
Ah yes, the first part could be using graphs, but the second part I think it's just a signature extraction from the packet
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ricopt5
Well, capcom did say their algorithm is 100% accurate
That can only be said by a person who is not too familiar with machine learning technology. You NEVER get 100%. You can get 99.?% and increasing it takes an exponential amount of effort. You will not reach 100% accuracy with such a complex problem
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TheJWays
That can only be said by a person who is not too familiar with machine learning technology. You NEVER get 100%. You can get 99.?% and increasing it takes an exponential amount of effort. You will not reach 100% accuracy with such a complex problem
I also said that I think it's not ML like everyone has been saying
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I’m just here to voice the opinion that the blocklist should be publicly viewable so as to avoid creating a blackbox. The helium denylist should really be a temporary measure until a decentralized approach such as HIP-40 to blocking malicious hotspots is created, at which point the list and reason for blocking would be publicly viewable anyway. (edited)
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DarthCrypto
I’m just here to voice the opinion that the blocklist should be publicly viewable so as to avoid creating a blackbox. The helium denylist should really be a temporary measure until a decentralized approach such as HIP-40 to blocking malicious hotspots is created, at which point the list and reason for blocking would be publicly viewable anyway. (edited)
Don't worry, it will. Either helium publishes it or the community dumps it from the miner's firmware (edited)
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Corrected, thanks
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for anyone doing #data-analysis there is now a denylist table on DeWi ETL, populated with all the addresses from the circulating CSV
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
But I do think ultimately the most “pure” approach would be to craft anti-gaming measures into an algorithm that exists in the blockchain core.
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DarthCrypto
But I do think ultimately the most “pure” approach would be to craft anti-gaming measures into an algorithm that exists in the blockchain core.
That would be ideal, but very very difficult
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DarthCrypto
But I do think ultimately the most “pure” approach would be to craft anti-gaming measures into an algorithm that exists in the blockchain core.
There are some, things like limiting PoCs done to a single IP addresses, RSSI SNR tables, etc. But "gaming" is a desire, not a single action. It's like anti virus software, there's an arms race, and because of the nature of the blockchain some types of "anti virus" checking are really really hard. Also, those anti-gaming algos in the blockchain core will have false positives, it will have bugs. It's always the case. This stuff is always a tradeoff. Gaming will evolve, anti-gaming will evolve. All the time, forever. (edited)
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Blocking my device for no reason and me trying to fix it for a month
11:40
İs no approach
11:40
My device is on the list
11:40
Gaming with 1 device
11:40
Great job
11:42
Picked 12.000 out for 100k gaming and innocent people along the way
11:42
İs not a way
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cryptoz
Picked 12.000 out for 100k gaming and innocent people along the way
So software and humans should be perfect? Write a HIP for that.
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No but why ban 1 unit
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 11:43 AM
some hotspots where selected falsely
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cryptoz
No but why ban 1 unit
If I had to guess (and I'm just guessing here) it's because the folks that thought up the algorithm to make the list didn't think: "hey if this wallet has only one hotspot that must not be a gamer" Either they just didn't think of it, because they're human, or they thought: "well we could check for that, but it wouldn't be too hard for gamers to get around that check either." Dunno which of these it was, or something else entirely. (edited)
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Or thİs is supposed to be publicly done
11:45
Before banning
11:45
Since it's not their decision but ours
11:46
Or isn't it the people network
11:46
İ understand gaming bn
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Someone could game with multiple wallets in theory. Probably more tedious but don't see why not
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But not like this
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krby
So software and humans should be perfect? Write a HIP for that.
To be clear, I do not like the fact this was all secret. My opinion is that any anti-gaming mechanism will likely have false positives. It's in the nature of the problem. Some methods will be have less (and likely be less effective at stopping gamers) some will have more false positives (and maybe better at stopping gamers)
11:47
Secretly by who
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Dens
Someone could game with multiple wallets in theory. Probably more tedious but don't see why not
Thinking quickly, seems easy to automate to me with some scripts and cli-wallet.
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True but why without anyone's knowledge
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@cryptoz I don't follow your point. Is it that this should not have been secret, or there should never be a chance of false positive (non-gamers being put on a list), or something else?
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Are there any plans or thoughts on a reinstatement process for hotspots that have been put on the blocklist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 11:53 AM
the list has been removed, firmware soon
11:53
once the firmwares out there will be no list unless the vote goes ahead
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I’m talking long term. Like how would someone go about getting off the list if they got put on it.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 11:54 AM
this list is temporary until hip40 comes along
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Understood, but let’s assume that this list or the list in HIP40 ends up having a 5% false positive rate. How can those hotspot owners get themselves off the list?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 11:58 AM
they wont
11:59
the emphasis was whether to put the list back, and expedite hip40 to replace it if we do (edited)
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DarthCrypto
Understood, but let’s assume that this list or the list in HIP40 ends up having a 5% false positive rate. How can those hotspot owners get themselves off the list?
Wondering exactly the same. (don't get me wrong, gamers must be handled somehow). So some decentralized 'algorithm' decides whether or not you will be 'selected' to be banned. Those who think this will be flawless could be somewhat naive. That said,... how does someone who feels this 'algorithm' selected his/her HS wrongly go about getting off of this list. Some (centralized) bunch of wise-guys, or even a 'single person' ? Do you need to send some email to 'someone' or post a twitter message? Just wondering the same. (edited)
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Pattepat
Wondering exactly the same. (don't get me wrong, gamers must be handled somehow). So some decentralized 'algorithm' decides whether or not you will be 'selected' to be banned. Those who think this will be flawless could be somewhat naive. That said,... how does someone who feels this 'algorithm' selected his/her HS wrongly go about getting off of this list. Some (centralized) bunch of wise-guys, or even a 'single person' ? Do you need to send some email to 'someone' or post a twitter message? Just wondering the same. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:03 PM
they wouldn't
12:04
if you dont agree, vote no, then we can get to hip40 and talk about that, but right now its a do we want it or not, not a system we can apeal to
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
if you dont agree, vote no, then we can get to hip40 and talk about that, but right now its a do we want it or not, not a system we can apeal to
Not really answering the question posted. I cannot imagine all involved haven't got some ideas about exactly this. Given the roar here in this channel it's not really a strange question?
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Pattepat
Not really answering the question posted. I cannot imagine all involved haven't got some ideas about exactly this. Given the roar here in this channel it's not really a strange question?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:09 PM
im saying, there are no plans to allow appeals
12:09
it would be the list and its selection period untill hip40
12:09
removals would be tied with firmware releases
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Ok, so once on the list,...... thats it,..... no removal possible?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:10 PM
there was some talk about decay
12:10
but generally the idea would be a stop gap to 40
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You would consider the possible flaws in the algorithm selecting a HS wrongfully as collateral damage?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:12 PM
as an error
12:12
apparently
12:12
a basic math error caused these problems (and for the community to unearth the list)
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So there's two separate things about appealing. Not sure which @Pattepat is referring to 1) If the Helium run blocklist vote passes, before HIP-40 passes and is implemented, how would someone appeal being on the Helium blocklist 2) If HIP-40 is passed, how would someone appeal being on the HIP-40 denylist? I think the answers are: 1) No appeal 2) This is not decided. HIP-40 as written is about the concept of making a denylist implemented by validators, and maybe work towards a denylist management process, but it says nothing about the actual process of denylist management. (edited)
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Both basically but i guess 'the community' (me included) will eagerly want to know how de-blocking will work for HIP40 to pass.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:22 PM
im keen to explorer the idea of providing a framework for running a list and open source software to manage one with reasons (still discussing it)
12:23
one part of the talk was an agregator website to find out what list your on
12:24
and then the list maker would run an info site? show how they score hotspots, what their doing and the list for lookup etc, and generally suggesting that it follows that pattern
12:24
but just ideas at this stage
12:25
all it generally needs to be, is a list, signed on a website
12:25
but the appeals process can be defined per list, theres no control of that
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Pattepat
Both basically but i guess 'the community' (me included) will eagerly want to know how de-blocking will work for HIP40 to pass.
RIght, but HIP-40 does not specify that. So voting on HIP-40 means supporting the concept of a denylist before all the details are worked out.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:27 PM
yeah, this hip will be updated to just define the method
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It's a shame these gamers already made their money. They could have acted earlier if they didn't need HIP
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:27 PM
not usage or creation of the lists
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krby
RIght, but HIP-40 does not specify that. So voting on HIP-40 means supporting the concept of a denylist before all the details are worked out.
True, maybe a new HIP would be needed to define the 'unblocking' part.
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Lamartotem
It's a shame these gamers already made their money. They could have acted earlier if they didn't need HIP
There have been other waves of gamers. (anyone remember Modesto, CA?) There will be more. It's an ongoing arms race.
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😉 to be continued,..... appreciate all of your efforts @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io to be leading this as of day-1 of your HIP. The annoyance level on these gamers is continuously growing hopefully this will give them a punch.
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Top move Helium Inc 👍
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So will they rerun the list again if the community votes “yes” or are you pretty much on that list even if you are not gaming ?
12:40
Then how do they prevent you from offloading your miner? Cause you are still able to
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Aigen
So will they rerun the list again if the community votes “yes” or are you pretty much on that list even if you are not gaming ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:40 PM
The list had a bug
12:41
If it went back in the bug would be fixed and only gaming with clear signs would be selected
12:41
They haven't said much more
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io There almost 90% hotspots are spoof location at Hong Kong. Where can I report these hotspot ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:44 PM
There probably on the list
12:44
Look them up
12:44
The EU piscies clusters are from checking (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The list had a bug
That’s why it’s always been a concern to assert where you live. Lat/long are posted so imagine someone showing up because you are a “gamer” and giving you a piece of their mind
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Aigen
That’s why it’s always been a concern to assert where you live. Lat/long are posted so imagine someone showing up because you are a “gamer” and giving you a piece of their mind
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:45 PM
Being slightly off on location was never a sign to be clear
12:45
They have said RF metadata shows signs when traffic is shaped or injected
12:45
And that's what the list was based off
12:46
But something went wrong with part 2 of selection due to a maths bug and lots of legit got selected
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There probably on the list
I can't found spoof location hotspot on the list. This is one of spoof location hotspot.You can see all the witnesses are spoof location. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112wPxJsqJ1Wk565pbP4EX2vXgm4HME2RmT5ZWmMgvmcLV4mthmz Any channel I can report spoof hotspot?
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Daphne
I can't found spoof location hotspot on the list. This is one of spoof location hotspot.You can see all the witnesses are spoof location. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112wPxJsqJ1Wk565pbP4EX2vXgm4HME2RmT5ZWmMgvmcLV4mthmz Any channel I can report spoof hotspot?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/12/2022 12:54 PM
No there isn't a way for us to ban right now that's what hip 40 suggests
12:54
I mean helium created a list anyways but there's no way to add to it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I mean helium created a list anyways but there's no way to add to it
OK. Thanks
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Deleted User 01/12/2022 1:08 PM
so what's the difference that everyone knows who's on the list or not?
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backtran
do they own a lot of HNT? Looking at the wallets they tend to liquidate pretty quickly.
Yes, you're right, they're moving the stolen HNT to another wallet. What keeps them from voting with that wallet for things that stop them from stealing again? As long as the vote of a wallet that contains a lot of HNT is stronger than the vote of a wallet with 1 HNT, the result of the vote is not what the community wants. Imagine that in the USA, Elon Musk's vote would count more than the vote of a Dallas taxi driver .... The results of the vote, according to the current organization, do not reflect the desire of the "network of people", but reflect the desire of the "network of people with a lot of HNT in their wallets". And these people will do the right thing so that their interests are not affected.
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ale / BV
Yes, you're right, they're moving the stolen HNT to another wallet. What keeps them from voting with that wallet for things that stop them from stealing again? As long as the vote of a wallet that contains a lot of HNT is stronger than the vote of a wallet with 1 HNT, the result of the vote is not what the community wants. Imagine that in the USA, Elon Musk's vote would count more than the vote of a Dallas taxi driver .... The results of the vote, according to the current organization, do not reflect the desire of the "network of people", but reflect the desire of the "network of people with a lot of HNT in their wallets". And these people will do the right thing so that their interests are not affected.
by "liquidate pretty quickly", I think he meant sell the HNT for fiat currency pretty quickly. So they wouldn't actually hold the HNT anymore. It's easy enough to confirm, check out transactions for those wallets.
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Even so, the "network of people with a lot of HNT in their wallets" exists, which is why I believe that in the current system, voting will never reflect the desire of the "network of people". I'm going to sleep... Good night and good thoughts. (edited)
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The theory behind the weighting is that the people who hold a lot of HNT have an interest in the success of helium and therefore will make correct decisions
14:55
It has its problems but I don't see any way to get around it, if it was just number of votes you could make thousands of wallets to sway a decision. If it was a nonlinear scale then holders could split their holdings across multiple wallets to maximize the weight.
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Wen vote??
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molano
Wen vote??
The teamp check expires soon. I'm sure it will be sooner rather than later.
15:41
I look forward to voting yes
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Beyondeod
The teamp check expires soon. I'm sure it will be sooner rather than later.
temp check is for hip42 I tought??
15:46
We are in hip40 here. 😉
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Opps sorry
15:46
You are correct
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Will they ban the miners who cheat? That's the best method. Make the banned miner useless.
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That's the plan
17:32
The faster the better
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Happy about this! People stealing from the network should be disqualified period. They play the role of a leech and that's not fair for the people that actually do support the network.
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I don't understand the recent income situation. Whether they are cheaters or not, did they not buy machines with their own money? Did the project party not get profit from it? This is ungrateful. Many people turn into bricks as soon as they buy the machine. If they are blacklisted, then the real layout will be useless. What's more abhorrent is that cheaters have huge social resources, even if their real layout is useless It's easier than us, the current situation is hard for those of us who just want to dig well. Unexpectedly becomes 0
alwaysthinking 1
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kevin1046
I don't understand the recent income situation. Whether they are cheaters or not, did they not buy machines with their own money? Did the project party not get profit from it? This is ungrateful. Many people turn into bricks as soon as they buy the machine. If they are blacklisted, then the real layout will be useless. What's more abhorrent is that cheaters have huge social resources, even if their real layout is useless It's easier than us, the current situation is hard for those of us who just want to dig well. Unexpectedly becomes 0
Brainstormer 01/12/2022 7:44 PM
I agree, you don't understand.
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kevin1046
I don't understand the recent income situation. Whether they are cheaters or not, did they not buy machines with their own money? Did the project party not get profit from it? This is ungrateful. Many people turn into bricks as soon as they buy the machine. If they are blacklisted, then the real layout will be useless. What's more abhorrent is that cheaters have huge social resources, even if their real layout is useless It's easier than us, the current situation is hard for those of us who just want to dig well. Unexpectedly becomes 0
They may buy hotspot with their own money. But when they assert spoof cluster in the map while all physical hotspots are sitting in the same room and earn HNT for witness each other. The HNT that should spread among real hotspot owner who really put the hotspot in real location. Do you think it is fair? The idea of Helium is building the network for real use not game the system to get HNT.
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backtran
do they own a lot of HNT? Looking at the wallets they tend to liquidate pretty quickly.
They move to one wallet everyday.
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kevin1046
I don't understand the recent income situation. Whether they are cheaters or not, did they not buy machines with their own money? Did the project party not get profit from it? This is ungrateful. Many people turn into bricks as soon as they buy the machine. If they are blacklisted, then the real layout will be useless. What's more abhorrent is that cheaters have huge social resources, even if their real layout is useless It's easier than us, the current situation is hard for those of us who just want to dig well. Unexpectedly becomes 0
I have the same opinion. I don't agree with banning. We should give them the chance to change. Banning is not the final solution. And if the helium network decide for banning, it should only be for a short time.
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They didn't do it by chance. They do it with intention. So give them a chance to move the cluster to a new location? I think you've already seen nicely place hotspot clusters in China. Do you think they will turn around and 'be a nice guy'?
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yaa_husen
I have the same opinion. I don't agree with banning. We should give them the chance to change. Banning is not the final solution. And if the helium network decide for banning, it should only be for a short time.
banning is too aggressive. would make people over considered.
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Kenny_PDY
They didn't do it by chance. They do it with intention. So give them a chance to move the cluster to a new location? I think you've already seen nicely place hotspot clusters in China. Do you think they will turn around and 'be a nice guy'?
We should see and not only do. They invested thousends of $ for buying the miners. Everyone make mistakes in life, like me and you. If we ban, we should give them first the chance to change the location by giving or selling the miner to serious people. So more people could enter the network everyone will get satisfied.
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i mean this project is not like a company's product to sell something. but if there is a grey rule someone or small group can ban others. it would make those who ready to join healium. rethink about it. why should i put the money in helium if there is not high safe or just find other project.
02:01
this issue is like my country talking about death penalty abolition😆 (edited)
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Deleted User 01/13/2022 2:34 AM
I think it depends on the degree. If some is spoofing 50 miners in the middle of the ocean and stealing thousands, screw them. If someone, if someone spoofs 2 miners, to 1 hex over, there should be a path to redemption
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yaa_husen
I have the same opinion. I don't agree with banning. We should give them the chance to change. Banning is not the final solution. And if the helium network decide for banning, it should only be for a short time.
it is the best choice that Helium Inc has ever made, these hotspots are only active for cheating, they do not give any advantage to the whole network. here we are not talking about a person who has 3 active hotspots and has been clever, but about real mining farms scattered around the globe
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Is that correct to create a denylist silently instead of putting on everything the desk for widely discussion? is it a real decentralized project? or just helium company's money printer?
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Italy for example, I know this area very well, beyond the mountains, goats and maybe a bar you can't find anything https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11SuBbqAo1jmqCXXStPhp7BHeSqNJ996YKxVuEVqWt2RrREzdCe (edited)
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Such an approach can easily hurt innocent users by mistake.
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Omer-xCasp3r 01/13/2022 3:01 AM
Possibly a new gamer incoming, will check it later when all of them are synced 😫 13vw7p2VWdvvYv7GUhLGpoCAKWW4gb1Tcxos2xq3VXCMW6Mrrbf
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Uncontrolled accidental injury will make people completely lose confidence in helium
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very well deny list. New miner near sea in Poland is 100% Farm of hotspots. 3 hotspots earn 2,73 HNT in last 24h https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13XbM34a9DeJ3P7D618zbh76kqDc1VBGa4XzdhSymn62f68yEkG 1,39 HNT in last 24h this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11nX8UXdeEtFLNKcPEkgSw7n6vKBkrpfWqaDewniKB62BBBRpmk (edited)
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but is there anyone notice who teach people cheat
04:20
i can tell was the hotspot manufactures
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maybe it could be control from the retailer. if retailer could sell bunch of miners per order, i can image what will be happened.
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LMAO even retailers r cheating what u expect
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Deleted User 01/13/2022 4:42 AM
It’s spoofing possible to mitigate via Helium app and your phones GPS? I get VPN exists but most spoofing is usually in rural areas where there’s not VPN. Google or Microsoft surely has an app you are required to plug into?
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leszek_sk
very well deny list. New miner near sea in Poland is 100% Farm of hotspots. 3 hotspots earn 2,73 HNT in last 24h https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13XbM34a9DeJ3P7D618zbh76kqDc1VBGa4XzdhSymn62f68yEkG 1,39 HNT in last 24h this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11nX8UXdeEtFLNKcPEkgSw7n6vKBkrpfWqaDewniKB62BBBRpmk (edited)
this isn't only deployed vpn area farming also they are using custom firmware unfortunatelly gaming in rf data they have been playing most likely x factory devices as cot x and piss sh*t
05:57
im afraid we wont able to use vpn which is not good because i was planning to use 4g connection and i hope its fine coz dont wanna get punish for it
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You can use a vpn to get port forwarding on off grid setups, I think there's some info about it in #enclosures-and-offgrid
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YTLin
banning is too aggressive. would make people over considered.
Noel - that guy 01/13/2022 6:13 AM
Banning is 100% the correct method for dealing with this. However, banning with no appeal process or community over-sight is 100% the wrong way to do it.
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Glue Factory 3.0 01/13/2022 6:14 AM
It’s amazing how certain people are wanting to give the people that are stealing your money another chance. Ban them all. I didn’t spend thousands of dollars to do it right to have a bot group buy up all of these miners so I have to pay double retail and then they stack all of them in a room and game the system. Use your brain.
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06:18
Proof of this happening again if measures aren’t taken seriously happens all of the time. Take online gaming for example. They ban programs and users all of the time and they continue to find a work around and there back again. This will be the same if things like this don’t happen.
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The battle between helium and gamers is a constant arms race, banning is just another weapon in helium's toolbox. The problem arises from the fact that this was done completely secretly with no system for appeals and no discussion with the community. It kinda goes around the whole "people's network" thing. We already know helium can make mistakes, that's how the whole blacklist was discovered. Banning gamers is definitely good but not secretly behind the community's back.
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banning is not good its decentralized
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webbgamers
The battle between helium and gamers is a constant arms race, banning is just another weapon in helium's toolbox. The problem arises from the fact that this was done completely secretly with no system for appeals and no discussion with the community. It kinda goes around the whole "people's network" thing. We already know helium can make mistakes, that's how the whole blacklist was discovered. Banning gamers is definitely good but not secretly behind the community's back.
Noel - that guy 01/13/2022 6:37 AM
I tried to have a conversation yesterday regarding the deny-list issue and as soon as I mentioned that the vast majority of gamers were located in China based on the leaked information, it devolved into me being a racist for bringing it up. I am looking at the facts. I saw a list with 34k identified possible gamers and 29k were in China. Any point I made after that was attacked. Only 1 person in that particular channel was willing to have a sensible conversation with me and believe it or not that was capcom.
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BAD TRIP
banning is not good its decentralized
Noel - that guy 01/13/2022 6:38 AM
You misspelled "Scamming". Corrected your grammar as well. It should read, "Scamming is not good as it is decentralized."
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06:44
All kidding aside, banning is the correct method as long as there is an appeal process, community over-sight, and the ability within the system to identify SPECIFIC miners. If that miner is then sold to someone else, they can appeal to get it released and the community can then get the information of the original seller from the new owner. Gives a way to track and build a permanent ban-list for individuals or companies that game and then sell to unwitting 3rd parties.
06:45
Then you can make a condition of sales by vendors that they cannot sell to those entities on the ban list.
06:45
or do so at their own peril.
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Noel - that guy
I tried to have a conversation yesterday regarding the deny-list issue and as soon as I mentioned that the vast majority of gamers were located in China based on the leaked information, it devolved into me being a racist for bringing it up. I am looking at the facts. I saw a list with 34k identified possible gamers and 29k were in China. Any point I made after that was attacked. Only 1 person in that particular channel was willing to have a sensible conversation with me and believe it or not that was capcom.
Ima be honest, having a conversation of a controversial topic doesn't really forgive someone for going behind everyone's backs like that. This blacklist probably wasn't going to even be announced until HIP40 is implemented which is concerning. Helium probably thought what they were doing was "for the best" but it is still a huge breach of trust and does not sit well with me. (edited)
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Noel - that guy
Then you can make a condition of sales by vendors that they cannot sell to those entities on the ban list.
Also I don't think this will be particularly effective, making it the responsibility of hotspot manufacturers to verify identity is not great and seems extremely easy to bypass.
06:53
During a hotspot transfer, there should be a big warning flag if a hotspot is banned.
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06:55
Anything more than that like having the buyer report the sellers information will just increase complexity.
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Glue Factory 3.0 01/13/2022 7:10 AM
I like the community involvement in issues like this. Voting on a Hip is the proper way to do things, but in real world situations like what is happening I’m ok with Helium doing what they did to try and protect the system and all of us that spent our own money to build this network. What I would like to see in the future is notification of things like this immediately telling us what has happened so we can put it to a vote. Instead of finding out the wrong way.
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webbgamers
During a hotspot transfer, there should be a big warning flag if a hotspot is banned.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 7:15 AM
Cap said that's coming for the shadow list
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07:15
So hip40 can use it
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Glue Factory 3.0
It’s amazing how certain people are wanting to give the people that are stealing your money another chance. Ban them all. I didn’t spend thousands of dollars to do it right to have a bot group buy up all of these miners so I have to pay double retail and then they stack all of them in a room and game the system. Use your brain.
If you're 100% sure they are gaming, agreed. But we can never know 100%. I think you also need to understand that you're not actually banning people, but you're banning hotspots. If you ban them forever, what would happen to them? They'll just end up in the trash - but only if it's clear when transferring a hotspot that it's banned. They will just sell it and buy new ones. Not that they can't start over without selling them, but if the algorithm to ban the gamers is fast enough it will be hard for them to earn enough money to buy new hotspots, even with 2HNT per day. (edited)
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Ashwin
If you're 100% sure they are gaming, agreed. But we can never know 100%. I think you also need to understand that you're not actually banning people, but you're banning hotspots. If you ban them forever, what would happen to them? They'll just end up in the trash - but only if it's clear when transferring a hotspot that it's banned. They will just sell it and buy new ones. Not that they can't start over without selling them, but if the algorithm to ban the gamers is fast enough it will be hard for them to earn enough money to buy new hotspots, even with 2HNT per day. (edited)
Glue Factory 3.0 01/13/2022 8:50 AM
I don’t believe this would ever be a knee jerk reaction when it comes to banning people. I understand that your banning the hotspot but they are the ones that payed for it. What they do with there money is there option. If they purchase the hotspot and use it for the purposes of gaming and are caught tuff for them. No one made them cheat the system. I have no compassion for people who abuse the system to get ahead of everyone else.
08:54
Nothing will ever be perfect when it comes to things like this. I think we need to look at the big picture tho. It has to be good for as many as possible. There will always be people or items caught in the crossfire because of what someone else has done wrong. I feel bad for those. You just can’t expect someone to magically say oh I got caught I’m sorry I won’t do it again. There intentions were wrong to start with and will continue to be wrong moving forward.
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Glue Factory 3.0
I don’t believe this would ever be a knee jerk reaction when it comes to banning people. I understand that your banning the hotspot but they are the ones that payed for it. What they do with there money is there option. If they purchase the hotspot and use it for the purposes of gaming and are caught tuff for them. No one made them cheat the system. I have no compassion for people who abuse the system to get ahead of everyone else.
I fully agree with your opinion on not having compassion with cheaters. But as long as we can't be 100% sure you will also ban people who did nothing wrong, and that's something we shouldn't want
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Question, if a bunch of hotspots who are gaming are banned, would that significantly increase all honest hotspot earnings?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 9:45 AM
it would have an effect on everyones earnings yes
09:45
less people eating the pie
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Ashwin
I fully agree with your opinion on not having compassion with cheaters. But as long as we can't be 100% sure you will also ban people who did nothing wrong, and that's something we shouldn't want
Would be interesting if they ban the wallets that are cheating. And black list all associated hotspots. Even if they have a few honest hotspots. (edited)
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Well they will just transfer to a different wallet
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Hotspots in the deny list should be fully excluded from witnessing and not take a space in the list of 18 witnesses. A cheater placed on the deny list could use all their hotspots to send PoC receipts using their existing distribution network, lowering the chance for valid witnesses to get a spot in the list of 18 witnesses. The cheaters won't gain anything with this, but they can do it as a form of retaliation.
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Glue Factory 3.0
Nothing will ever be perfect when it comes to things like this. I think we need to look at the big picture tho. It has to be good for as many as possible. There will always be people or items caught in the crossfire because of what someone else has done wrong. I feel bad for those. You just can’t expect someone to magically say oh I got caught I’m sorry I won’t do it again. There intentions were wrong to start with and will continue to be wrong moving forward.
Good points
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FailHaze
Hotspots in the deny list should be fully excluded from witnessing and not take a space in the list of 18 witnesses. A cheater placed on the deny list could use all their hotspots to send PoC receipts using their existing distribution network, lowering the chance for valid witnesses to get a spot in the list of 18 witnesses. The cheaters won't gain anything with this, but they can do it as a form of retaliation.
I don't think the gamers want to sabotage the rest of the network, they are purely motivated by profit.
10:23
As soon as the profit is taken away, they stop. Trolling doesn't pay the bills.
10:25
Plus I don't think a lot of cheaters are witnessing legit hotspots
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webbgamers
I don't think the gamers want to sabotage the rest of the network, they are purely motivated by profit.
Just by gaming they are already sabotaging the network. By giving them a chance to effectively denying legit witnesses, they can force developer resources to fixing that instead of improving the network.
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webbgamers
Plus I don't think a lot of cheaters are witnessing legit hotspots
In the Netherlands & Belgium this is actually happening by distributing beacons to multiple hotspots, causing rewards for legit hotspots to drop 50%.
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FailHaze
Just by gaming they are already sabotaging the network. By giving them a chance to effectively denying legit witnesses, they can force developer resources to fixing that instead of improving the network.
Sorry I phrased that bad, the gamers don't care about the network. They aren't motivated by its success or failure (if anything they would be more interested in its success), they are purely motivated by profit. If cheaters get banned, they will most likely move on instead of sabotaging.
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FailHaze
In the Netherlands & Belgium this is actually happening by distributing beacons to multiple hotspots, causing rewards for legit hotspots to drop 50%.
Ah I didn't know that, never had that happen to me before
10:31
So banned hotspots are witnessing legit hotspots taking one of the witness slots preventing a different legit hotspot from witnessing and getting the rewards?
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webbgamers
So banned hotspots are witnessing legit hotspots taking one of the witness slots preventing a different legit hotspot from witnessing and getting the rewards?
No, currently they are not banned, so they take up slots and get rewarded. But when they would get banned when this hip gets implemented, they could still just continue to witness and disturb legit hotspots. It’s just a very underdesirable situation that we should avoid. I can imagine a huge gamer with hundreds of banned hotspots will be pissed and then easily choose to retaliate.
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So it's just gamers that haven't been banned yet (edited)
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InvestThatMoney305 01/13/2022 10:46 AM
What the vote percentage the new rule needs to pass?
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Father Shark 😎 01/13/2022 10:49 AM
Where do I go to vote on the hips
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InvestThatMoney305
What the vote percentage the new rule needs to pass?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 10:49 AM
As ever a super majority 66.6%
10:49
Currently on the helium deny hotspots witnessing reports are dropped
10:50
I assume this means they don't take up one of the 18 slots when disguarded
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webbgamers
So it's just gamers that haven't been banned yet (edited)
Yes, and my problem with the current proposal is that the negative effect on the legitimate hotspots in an affected area will remain the same if the banned hotspots keep running.
11:01
However, to effectively remove them from the list, I think every witness to a beacon should be submitted and recorded on the blockchain. The challenger can still randomly sort the complete list and the validators can select hotspots for rewards top to bottom, skipping denylist hotspots (and even other invalids if that's desired).
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Beastmodetpa 01/13/2022 11:04 AM
So what’s does it mean that hotspots will be “managed”?
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Downsides of this would be the increase in data usage and block size. Upside would be that it gives a much more complete image of actual witnessing, providing more data for gaming analysis.
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Beastmodetpa 01/13/2022 11:04 AM
Will they get reduced rewards? Will their hotspots not be able to mine?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Currently on the helium deny hotspots witnessing reports are dropped
Indeed, but that's currently only possible if that decision is taken on the challenger.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 11:05 AM
it is on the current list
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If the challenger selects the 18 witnesses for the validator, the hotspots on the denylist will still take up a spot.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 11:05 AM
ah ok
11:05
we're talking future sure
11:05
good point to clarify
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i cant vote
11:09
It says open app
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In NL/BE we're currently dealing with a potential gaming network that distributes witnessed beacons all across the two countries. This gamer could simply keep disrupting (blocking?) the whole area's earnings after getting banned, by simply taking up those witness spots.
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then nothing
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FailHaze
If the challenger selects the 18 witnesses for the validator, the hotspots on the denylist will still take up a spot.
Phil_NensLtd 01/13/2022 11:10 AM
Most of the cheaters will probably move on. Dont think they will leave it plugged in if its not getting their stolen rewards
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How do you vote? I click on the message in the app and it takes me to the website. Then when I go to vote on the website, it says to open the app, which I do, and it just returns me to the same screen In the app that I started with. It’s just a circle with no option to actually cast the vote. What am I doing wrong?
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FailHaze
If the challenger selects the 18 witnesses for the validator, the hotspots on the denylist will still take up a spot.
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 11:18 AM
The 18 limit is an arbitrary chain variable and validator implementation detail. It could easily be changed to 18 valid witnesses + N dropped witnesses.
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Perhaps, but I'm not sure if we can make that assumption. I do like the idea of submitting more than 18 witnesses though (still rewarding only the random top 18 allowed hotspots from that list), and it can also solve the problem of denied hotspots taking up spots. (edited)
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
The 18 limit is an arbitrary chain variable and validator implementation detail. It could easily be changed to 18 valid witnesses + N dropped witnesses.
Yeah, but the problem is that the challenger doesn't know which witness to drop.
11:19
Since we're talking about a validator deny list. The decision is for the validators to make. (edited)
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 11:19 AM
The big problem right now is that miners still process the blockchain, so adding extra writes/data has a negative effect on the hotspots.
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FailHaze
Yeah, but the problem is that the challenger doesn't know which witness to drop.
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 11:20 AM
Aha...I missed you specifying doing the 18 selection on the challenger. I agree with you.
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Well not really
11:20
Just the challenger randomly ordering all (18+) witnesses, so the top 18 non-banned can be selected by the validators. (edited)
👍 1
11:22
If the challenger still does the random ordering, it probably makes implementation easier since the validators don't have to reach consensus over that random ordering.
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 11:24 AM
I'm not sure why HIP 40 is so controversial from a MECHANISM standpoint. We should have a mechanism that can block witness events. I understand the governance of the deny lists after the mechanism is created is a very challenging issue. @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io and @Anthonyra have done a great job on flushing this out. Not an easy problem. I wish there could be a HIP 40a (denylist blocking support on blockchain and/or challenger) and a HIP 40b (governance protocol around deny list blessing/process/policies). I suspect 40a would easily pass. (edited)
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
I'm not sure why HIP 40 is so controversial from a MECHANISM standpoint. We should have a mechanism that can block witness events. I understand the governance of the deny lists after the mechanism is created is a very challenging issue. @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io and @Anthonyra have done a great job on flushing this out. Not an easy problem. I wish there could be a HIP 40a (denylist blocking support on blockchain and/or challenger) and a HIP 40b (governance protocol around deny list blessing/process/policies). I suspect 40a would easily pass. (edited)
HIP 40a is kind of what we're voting for now right?
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
I'm not sure why HIP 40 is so controversial from a MECHANISM standpoint. We should have a mechanism that can block witness events. I understand the governance of the deny lists after the mechanism is created is a very challenging issue. @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io and @Anthonyra have done a great job on flushing this out. Not an easy problem. I wish there could be a HIP 40a (denylist blocking support on blockchain and/or challenger) and a HIP 40b (governance protocol around deny list blessing/process/policies). I suspect 40a would easily pass. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 11:27 AM
hip40a is coming as an update soon
11:27
hip40b is being talked about, but that side of things will be up to the listmaker
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
hip40b is being talked about, but that side of things will be up to the listmaker
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 11:33 AM
For lists applied by Validators, it seems like each Validator selects listed in a decentralized mechanism. If the mechanism is applied inside the challenger (or mandated that Validators apply the list)...presumably there must be a process for how those list(s) are accepted since at that point it effectively becomes application of a "centralized" list. I'm not opposed to either approach. Or even both approaches being implemented and active at the same time. (Especially since Challenger denylist support already exists...making only the governance side of what feeds into that list an issue!).
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 11:34 AM
follow up with me shortly after the update 🙂
11:34
i assure you it covers a lot of that
11:34
but the governance side has guidelines
11:34
but no way to enforce list makers follow them
11:35
we all know how well that worked with manufacturers
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 11:35 AM
I should make a list!! Sounds kind of fun. (edited)
👍 1
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FailHaze
In the Netherlands & Belgium this is actually happening by distributing beacons to multiple hotspots, causing rewards for legit hotspots to drop 50%.
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Silly question, do we have a list of the current denylist? Also, if the HIP-40 voting passes (which most likely will), how will hotspots be able to dispute their ban?
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simon66
Silly question, do we have a list of the current denylist? Also, if the HIP-40 voting passes (which most likely will), how will hotspots be able to dispute their ban?
GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
12:06
And the current black list is entirely managed by helium and there is no way to dispute, when the actual HIP40 vote happens and is implemented there will be a way to appeal
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Deleted User 01/13/2022 12:14 PM
Still don’t know how to vote and app says a few hours left to vote. What a shitshow.
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webbgamers
And the current black list is entirely managed by helium and there is no way to dispute, when the actual HIP40 vote happens and is implemented there will be a way to appeal
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 12:14 PM
There will be guidelines of how lists should run an appeal process but nothing to force them to
12:15
Anyone can make a list
12:15
It's wether or not validators choose to use them if they don't have one (edited)
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Deleted User
Still don’t know how to vote and app says a few hours left to vote. What a shitshow.
Go to https://helium.vote choose which option you want to vote for (a QR code will appear), then use the helium app to vote
Helium Vote is where the Helium Community comes together to make decisions on the Network.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's wether or not validators choose to use them if they don't have one (edited)
oh, so those blacklisted miners is just a list? The hotspot will decide if they want it or not?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 12:17 PM
the validators will decide if they will use them or not
12:17
a majority of valiators in the consensus must agree for a deny to be accepted
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the validators will decide if they will use them or not
By voting, right? We don't have to update a blacklist in our hotspot?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 12:20 PM
no, validators just update their config to add any list they want to use
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Oh, I thought it was a global ban. Hum... lets see what happens
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 12:21 PM
the current one is, hip40 is done on the validator side (edited)
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simon66
Go to https://helium.vote choose which option you want to vote for (a QR code will appear), then use the helium app to vote
Deleted User 01/13/2022 12:22 PM
This isn’t intuitive. What’s the quorom. 1000 votes out of 400K units (if each miner was one person) is kinda bad
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Deleted User
This isn’t intuitive. What’s the quorom. 1000 votes out of 400K units (if each miner was one person) is kinda bad
Never said it was intuitive. Some people aren't voting for multiple reasons (they don't know, they don't want to, its confusing, etc). If you want to vote, then vote 👍
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 12:51 PM
I'm hoping Helium Inc fast tracks the development of HIP40 after all this controversy of the shady things the've been doing with denylists. I'm all for denylist capabilities, not so much for abuses of power. Hopefully they right that wrong by helping implement HIP40.
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jamiedubs
for anyone doing #data-analysis there is now a denylist table on DeWi ETL, populated with all the addresses from the circulating CSV
" As we promised to the network, we have removed this from this release but we urge the community to independently verify this information." LOL (sorry, stupid reply, but just gonna keep it here) (edited)
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Trento Mundo 01/13/2022 1:09 PM
What shady things?
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Trento Mundo
What shady things?
ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ 01/13/2022 1:18 PM
Releasing a secret denylist and hiding a ban mechanism into a patched binary despite this community HIP already in process. This was done in a way that put manufacturers and others at legal risk for non-gaming devices being patched/hacked and Helium taking advantage of manufacturers that were not building the miner software from source to insert their own hidden code changes. Helium's intentions were in the right place (and I agree with having a deny mechanism!), but the method and post-fallout handling was an abuse of power and possibly created a legal nightmare on several fronts. They should have just helped fast track this HIP. (edited)
👍 6
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they're basically asking the community to reverse engineer the image (again) to make sure there isn't anything shady going on... by them.
👆 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/13/2022 1:24 PM
I think that's a good step tbh
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really need to get to the place where the code is open and there is a fully signed build process so we can validate the code matches the binaries.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Being slightly off on location was never a sign to be clear
I'm glad because when I set up my hotspot it says it's like 2 streets over from where It really is.
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thebookmaker 01/13/2022 1:34 PM
i dont even know what gaming is 😅 i understand poofing but people keep saying gaming in this chat what is that?!
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ⓈⒽⒶⓇⓀ
Releasing a secret denylist and hiding a ban mechanism into a patched binary despite this community HIP already in process. This was done in a way that put manufacturers and others at legal risk for non-gaming devices being patched/hacked and Helium taking advantage of manufacturers that were not building the miner software from source to insert their own hidden code changes. Helium's intentions were in the right place (and I agree with having a deny mechanism!), but the method and post-fallout handling was an abuse of power and possibly created a legal nightmare on several fronts. They should have just helped fast track this HIP. (edited)
Trento Mundo 01/13/2022 1:36 PM
Thank you for elaborating.
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thebookmaker
i dont even know what gaming is 😅 i understand poofing but people keep saying gaming in this chat what is that?!
Gaming = cheating
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Deleted User
Still don’t know how to vote and app says a few hours left to vote. What a shitshow.
go to helium.vote then link back to your desktop or phone app, different process for cli-wallet then burn the 35,000 DC required for voting and you are done.
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This hip got extended?
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richard Z
This hip got extended?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:00 PM
What do you mean?
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Never mind, I thought they were extended by 5 days, I read it wrong
👍 1
16:14
Pretty much impossible to have that many witnesses and that far
16:14
but here is the proof
16:16
Sent a beacon, all 18 witnesses invalid. One of the witnesses is in the Netherlands, 384km away!
16:17
most of the witnesses on that transaction are invalid due to "witness_on_incorrect_channel" but one of them is "witness_rssi_too_high". What does that mean?
16:18
I mean why 17 are on wrong channel and the other one isn't
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Deleted User 01/13/2022 4:22 PM
In terms if gaming i have rolled out a few hotspots and hosts requested that they prefer to remain private. I have recently moved them to another street. 1 hotspot entered another hex in doing so. Will this be a issue?
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Deleted User
In terms if gaming i have rolled out a few hotspots and hosts requested that they prefer to remain private. I have recently moved them to another street. 1 hotspot entered another hex in doing so. Will this be a issue?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 4:59 PM
Nope. People assert in offset locations for privacy all the time.
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EdB-charlietango 01/13/2022 5:39 PM
In about 20 minutes, we'll start a Twitter space talking about 5G and the denylist voting: https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1mrGmalApMBGy?s=20
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EdB-charlietango
In about 20 minutes, we'll start a Twitter space talking about 5G and the denylist voting: https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1mrGmalApMBGy?s=20
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 5:40 PM
Will it be recorded for those that can't attend?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Will it be recorded for those that can't attend?
EdB-charlietango 01/13/2022 5:41 PM
Sure. I think I can do that. I haven't tried it before but click the little button that says to record.
❤️ 1
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EdB-charlietango 01/13/2022 5:51 PM
Crud...so I didn't set it to record originally. If I edit it, then people will lose their reminders.
👍 1
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EdB-charlietango
Crud...so I didn't set it to record originally. If I edit it, then people will lose their reminders.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 6:04 PM
There are no emojis on desktop... (edited)
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EdB-charlietango
Crud...so I didn't set it to record originally. If I edit it, then people will lose their reminders.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 6:06 PM
Voting stuff/denylist/hip 40 please 😉
18:07
Hmm.. desktop it very limited. I'll try switching to mobile
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can someone send me the link that use to report hotspots gaming
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LOSTGE
can someone send me the link that use to report hotspots gaming
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/13/2022 9:20 PM
Suspots is a Helium hotspot reporting tool used to report suspected gamers.
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so is that mean there will be no denylist until next helium firmware update or implementation of hip44
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so I presume that now that the vote has happened the list will be reimplemented again?
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i dont think so
01:48
many gamers start waking up today in China
01:50
depends on what Neil said,we need to wait until next update or implementation of hip44
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When it comes to the rules of the game, I hope that I can truly practice the spirit of DAO and the "code is law" of the blockchain, and reduce the hidden dangers caused by certain prejudice and lack of knowledge caused by subjective interpretation of people when making judgments. It is never fair to rely on people. For example, equipment that has been blacklisted will definitely have a large-scale secondary sale, and people who get new equipment have not and will not understand the real rules at once, which will lead to judgments. Mistakes and a lot of wasted time. It is suggested that the real rules can be discussed in the community, judged by the code, and it is clear what the rules are. If there is a problem, the strategy should be continuously corrected, to meet the essence of the blockchain
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LOSTGE
depends on what Neil said,we need to wait until next update or implementation of hip44
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 1:51 AM
40, not 44
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my misstake hip40
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 1:51 AM
Should Helium, Inc continue to temporarily manage the denylist that is embedded in miner images until such time that a HIP-40 implementation is approved or if HIP-40 is rejected by the community?
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LOSTGE
depends on what Neil said,we need to wait until next update or implementation of hip44
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 1:52 AM
if the vote goes through it'll be added back next firmware release
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
if the vote goes through it'll be added back next firmware release
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 1:53 AM
The vote passed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 1:53 AM
hip-40 will be rushed through so the deny list they currently used is replaced ASAP
01:53
i have a meeting today, i think the update will likely be out later today/tomorrow
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
if the vote goes through it'll be added back next firmware release
so its the original list or empty list?
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LOSTGE
so its the original list or empty list?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 1:53 AM
A list without the bug
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A list without the bug
so its the empty list without bug and will start adding legit gamers?
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LOSTGE
so its the original list or empty list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 1:55 AM
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LOSTGE
so its the empty list without bug and will start adding legit gamers?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 1:55 AM
The gamers are already on it. Why would it be empty?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 1:55 AM
they say new list
🤔 1
01:55
but it'll basically be the old one minus the bug, but a lot more checks on the data i assume
👍 1
01:56
now its not in the shadows
01:56
it can have more eyes hopefully
💯 1
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sir one more question what happen to the hotspot in blacklist
01:58
does it become totally useless
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but it'll basically be the old one minus the bug, but a lot more checks on the data i assume
so does the banned hotspot can be transfer to other people
02:03
it would be sad if people buy the banned hotspot
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what's the ETA on this HIP?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 2:03 AM
with warning
02:03
and explorer will show the ban
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and explorer will show the ban
that's important I think
02:04
so if people buy a second hand banned hotspot they know
02:04
or for cases of false positives
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Can someone help me understand? Did helium make some detection algorithm for the cheating hotspots? Did it create some list and people got access to it ahead of time? Where can I find it?
facepalm 1
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QQQ
Can someone help me understand? Did helium make some detection algorithm for the cheating hotspots? Did it create some list and people got access to it ahead of time? Where can I find it?
yes
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is that list final? Where can I find it?
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where to find new judgment rules
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I'm curious for the banning criteria also
Troll 1
02:06
Is spoofing to the next hex bannable?
02:06
😄
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"a list" was leaked but it's just a list, it will continue to be updated
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or does it target only the big cheaters that use attenuators and create fake hotspot clusters?
02:07
I think a huge percentage of hotspots are incorrectly asserted to another hex
02:08
even the helium app had issues for a long time and it was asserting the location 50-100 meters further than what you selected (edited)
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Did you see that message from Poledancer in #poc-discussion that people trying to get of the banlist with help of manufactors?
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Sompie79
Did you see that message from Poledancer in #poc-discussion that people trying to get of the banlist with help of manufactors?
i can tell it might happen since many manufactors r in China
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True, if they indeed coorporate with those gamers, they should also be penalised in same way
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so what happen to the banned hotspots? totally trash?useless blackboxes?
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LOSTGE
so what happen to the banned hotspots? totally trash?useless blackboxes?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 2:31 AM
Doorstops
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new fashion toy
02:38
NFT banned hotspot
😆 2
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LOSTGE
so what happen to the banned hotspots? totally trash?useless blackboxes?
reflash and put on The Things network
😂 1
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they still get rewarded for challenges but not witnesses. Likely the cheaters turn them off and sell them in the second hand market.
03:12
What I don't get is this. Presumably the banned list will be removed in the next image release, but we just voted to keep the temp list for now. What's the point in removing it now? The damage to the community's trust has been done. Better to keep the current list and accelerate HIP-40
03:29
I guess you could say the removal was posted before the vote closed but then again why not wait for the vote before taking the list out? Seems silly now to want to quickly remove it when they weren't quick to disclose it.
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becos cheating is not forgiven
03:37
removal is just let the innocent people out
03:38
if the vote not passed then i think they will remove the list forever
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Nope. People assert in offset locations for privacy all the time.
Deleted User 01/14/2022 3:42 AM
Cheers just need to make sure the network doesnt block the hotspot as a cheat.
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cdturri
What I don't get is this. Presumably the banned list will be removed in the next image release, but we just voted to keep the temp list for now. What's the point in removing it now? The damage to the community's trust has been done. Better to keep the current list and accelerate HIP-40
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 3:46 AM
they wanted to rework it to make sure its precise and support it with some explorer features afaik (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
they wanted to rework it to make sure its precise and support it with some explorer features afaik (edited)
Sir so how about the hex of banned hotspots they gonna took that location forever?or they will disappear sometime
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LOSTGE
Sir so how about the hex of banned hotspots they gonna took that location forever?or they will disappear sometime
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 3:52 AM
They don't count for scaling if they don't have activity for 2.5 ish days or are offline for 2.5 days
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They don't count for scaling if they don't have activity for 2.5 ish days or are offline for 2.5 days
Thanks,btw does this rule apply for all hotspots or legit hotspot will take the hex even offlined for 2.5days
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cdturri
What I don't get is this. Presumably the banned list will be removed in the next image release, but we just voted to keep the temp list for now. What's the point in removing it now? The damage to the community's trust has been done. Better to keep the current list and accelerate HIP-40
We’re re-adding it in a more public way and fixing some of the errors made. Small amount of work needed, that’s all. I’d expect it back in days
👍 2
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LOSTGE
Thanks,btw does this rule apply for all hotspots or legit hotspot will take the hex even offlined for 2.5days
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 4:07 AM
Interactivity is a factor for all hotspots on the network yes, if they don't do PoC for 2.5 days ish or are offline they stop counting
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Interactivity is a factor for all hotspots on the network yes, if they don't do PoC for 2.5 days ish or are offline they stop counting
thanks u r hero
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peanutsarehairy 01/14/2022 5:00 AM
Is this being applied in the next firmware update?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:07 AM
hip-40 no, the old style list in firmware that drops witness receipts from the challengers if their on the list yes, next firmware release (edited)
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Will the banlist keep being updated and new hotspots added to it?
05:36
or is it one time ban?
05:36
can someone define what cheating is?
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QQQ
Will the banlist keep being updated and new hotspots added to it?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:36 AM
The shadow one not sure, I assume it'll grow
05:37
As for hip40 yes you could update lists quickly to add/remove
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is asserting your hotspot to a hex nearby considered cheating?
05:37
will it get banned by helium algorithms?
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QQQ
is asserting your hotspot to a hex nearby considered cheating?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:37 AM
No
05:38
They look at RF meta data altering , not if your 100m off
👆 1
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so only meta data altering?
05:38
how do you do that?
05:38
modifying helium firmware?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:38 AM
They obviously havnt revealed the method of detection
05:38
But there's a way to detect when someone alters the data or presents fake data
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someone said he edited some file on a sensecap and changed RSSI offset
05:39
it was some settings in a json file
05:39
and he would get -200 RSSI for a witness or stuff like that
05:39
making all witnesses valid
05:39
😄
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QQQ
and he would get -200 RSSI for a witness or stuff like that
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:39 AM
That person doesn't know what their doing, pocv11 would likely send everything invalid (edited)
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So something like that is bannable for now, right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:40 AM
Maybe
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will the conditions be changed in time, to target regular setups?
05:40
dunno what to expect 😄
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:40 AM
Not with the shadow ban but under hip40 it could be selected for a possible ban if a list maker looks it up and detects the gaming
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but there will be a way to appeal the ban, right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:41 AM
We should see lists of all types, its more about which lists people choose to support
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how about planting 10 hotspots in 1 location?
05:41
is that allowed? 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:41 AM
There are guidelines for list makers to follow but not hard requirement to provide an appeals process (edited)
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i don't see why it wouldn't be
05:41
you just trash the reward scale of your hex but you can witness the whole city and it's still worth it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:42 AM
You'd hope only those who do have appeals processes, would get selected for use and those without, wouldn't
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lots of people doing it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:42 AM
But there's no forcing of it, the people decide what's acceptable
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So helium created the first banlist
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:43 AM
yes
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but it won't have any effect for now
05:43
until hip 40 passes?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:43 AM
its turned off right now
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is it related to HIP 40?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:43 AM
its a firmware side list that drops poc events from the challenger side when they submit, if their on the shadow list
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or its just a Helium global ban?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:43 AM
its not
05:43
this was done separately
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BTW I think there is a misunderstanding on the vote to publish the denylist. One thing is to publish the denylist and another thing is to publish the algorithm/code that was used to generate the denylist. These are two different things that don't have to go together. I think the denylist vote's clear intent is about publishing the denylist, not publishing the algorithm/code. Does knowing you are in the denylist help the cheaters at all? Possibly but I don't think it will help them that much and having the list public will help honest hotspot owners if they get added by mistake so they can challenge their ban. So I think the denylist should be public and the transactions should be invalid and visible in the blockchain, just like HIP-40 proposes. But we shouldn't tell the cheaters how we find them, as that will only help them getting better at cheating.
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so it's only about metadata manipulation
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:44 AM
it was meant to be yes
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and it's close to 100% certainty the bans are not false positives
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:44 AM
but there was a maths error that selected legitimate hotspots (edited)
05:44
they're reworking it
05:44
adding features to explorer to show it
05:44
and then adding it back
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so we can expect even more hotspots to be added to that list in time
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:45 AM
as the vote passed
05:45
I assume it'll grow yes, but the aim is to rush hip40 through to replace it asap
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something being done about cheating is a strong enough deterrent
05:45
and people will think twice about doing it now (edited)
05:46
doesn't matter how effective it is. Just the fact that you can get banned if you cheat will make a lot of people play nice 😄
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cdturri
BTW I think there is a misunderstanding on the vote to publish the denylist. One thing is to publish the denylist and another thing is to publish the algorithm/code that was used to generate the denylist. These are two different things that don't have to go together. I think the denylist vote's clear intent is about publishing the denylist, not publishing the algorithm/code. Does knowing you are in the denylist help the cheaters at all? Possibly but I don't think it will help them that much and having the list public will help honest hotspot owners if they get added by mistake so they can challenge their ban. So I think the denylist should be public and the transactions should be invalid and visible in the blockchain, just like HIP-40 proposes. But we shouldn't tell the cheaters how we find them, as that will only help them getting better at cheating.
Personally I would want the denylist to be public and the invalid transactions reasons shown in Explorer. I am not too sure publishing code or algorithms will do any good. And in any case I think HIP-40 was always going to have the option to manually report a hotspot right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:47 AM
not always
05:48
thats at the discression of the list maker, they are advised to, and I'd hope no list would ever make it onto the validators config for use without it
05:48
but it could happen
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ok understood
05:48
basically it could be combination of manual or automated, as per the list maker desires
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:48 AM
yeah
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and HIP-40 does not require the list maker to publish their code/algorithm or how they found the hotspots they consider cheaters
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cdturri
and HIP-40 does not require the list maker to publish their code/algorithm or how they found the hotspots they consider cheaters
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:49 AM
it does not no, all the really need to publish is a pgp signed list, somewhere publically that can be fetched
05:50
thats the technical side of it
05:50
i would hope they also provide a site, where lookups can be done and some explanation of what they do to make the list
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well shouldn't etl.dewi.org do that with all available denylists? (and also report which validators use which denylist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:51 AM
explorer will get some features to show it, the fact their denied will be listed on activity
05:52
and then it'll also show them their denied and by what list from what i understand
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yes that's key
05:52
you need to know what list was it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:52 AM
yep
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does Explorer show which validator each transaction was using?
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cdturri
does Explorer show which validator each transaction was using?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:56 AM
you can look at who was in consensus for that block they were submitted during
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how will that work as there are multiple validator nodes in a consensus group and I presume they can all have different denylists right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 5:57 AM
all the lists are fetched and merged into one list on the validator
05:58
so as long as a majority of validators in consensus also agree that hotspot address is banned, the transactions invalidated with a reason of deny* (edited)
05:58
a hotspot could exist on many lists
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Using mapper verified hot spots will be join blacklist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
a hotspot could exist on many lists
Ah nice, that makes sense.
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005
Using mapper verified hot spots will be join blacklist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 6:38 AM
a list provider could choose to use mappers data they have sourced for a basis to create a list if thats what you're asking
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I installed the machine for real, but now it's bad, I was blacklisted by you guys, if this happens in the future, how can I prove myself
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 6:44 AM
the denylist has been removed in the latest firmware
06:44
the previous list had a maths error, it selected hotspots that just shouldn't have been in there. they are reworking it
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but it will add true gamers back next firmware right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 6:48 AM
the firmwares already out
06:48
takes a day or so to settle out
06:48
but right now yes, the 40k or so targeted could come back
06:48
many turned off their units tho
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My field deployment is not on the blacklist. Why is the beacon reduced by 80%
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yeah having the same issue since 6 Jan
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Jun311
My field deployment is not on the blacklist. Why is the beacon reduced by 80%
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 6:57 AM
unrelated then #hotspot-help
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I hope this issue can get your attention
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I am a fan of the helium project, and I bought hnt finance, I have a lot of confidence in your project, but your wrong algorithm hurts me and makes me feel really bad
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no doubt the cheaters will resume activities if they haven't sold their miners
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cdturri
no doubt the cheaters will resume activities if they haven't sold their miners
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:01 AM
07:01
syncing
07:02
they'll be back soon enough
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Glue Factory 3.0 01/14/2022 7:20 AM
We know what there doing and still Helium is letting them come back online. WTF
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Hahaha couldn't have been named better! Damaged Blood Bobcat
😄 1
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My hotspot was verified by mapper. However its still on your deny list, will this happen again in the next release?
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Although it's a Pisces Miner
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005
My hotspot was verified by mapper. However its still on your deny list, will this happen again in the next release?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:21 AM
Likely not there was an error in the last list
07:21
But just to be clear the current shadowlist is not hip40, and run by helium Inc
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Likely not there was an error in the last list
It might make sense to collect these alleged false positives to confirm with Helium, if they will be gone in the next list?
07:23
No offence intended for any alleged impacted hotspots but it could also be a cheater saying they are an impacted hotspot
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005
My hotspot was verified by mapper. However its still on your deny list, will this happen again in the next release?
What's your hotspot name?
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I hope you guys could take the result from mapper into consideration, it may increase the accurancy.
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005
I hope you guys could take the result from mapper into consideration, it may increase the accurancy.
not really. if you e.g. do witness sharing then this would not be detected by a mapper
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cdturri
It might make sense to collect these alleged false positives to confirm with Helium, if they will be gone in the next list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:25 AM
I believe they want to make it public info, they're still discussing how it'll work until hip40 is ready
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so the fact that a HS is detected by a mapper does not mean there is no gaming
💯 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:26 AM
Technically, the mechanism for hip40 isn't huge, I wouldn't be surprised if it's added pretty quickly after a vote
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yeah the problem is the governance
👍 1
07:27
and conflicts of interest. if you have hotspots, you actually benefit if other hotspots, even legit ones, are blocked
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07:28
so from a gaming theory perspective I should welcome any block list, no matter how it was compiled, as long as my HS is not on it 🙂
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Testa
and conflicts of interest. if you have hotspots, you actually benefit if other hotspots, even legit ones, are blocked
yeah good point but it will be a committee so there shouldn't be much room for biased decisions. Also committee votes should be public
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cdturri
yeah good point but it will be a committee so there shouldn't be much room for biased decisions. Also committee votes should be public
will there be a committee? Is there a draft governance available?
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cdturri
yeah good point but it will be a committee so there shouldn't be much room for biased decisions. Also committee votes should be public
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:28 AM
There's no committee now
07:28
It's just going to be the mechanism with guidelines for list creation (edited)
😩 1
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I don't see that working.. 😦
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There's no committee now
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
07:30
and that was what was voted for in the temperature check
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that is probably a placeholder 😉
07:30
for an actual committee haha
07:31
Open Questions Who will be on the DeWi committee?
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We can have a vote on that too
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:39 AM
Update coming I think maybe later today or a few days from now (edited)
07:40
The committee is being fully removed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The committee is being fully removed
so no committee? how would it work then? everybody can create a denylist?
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Testa
so no committee? how would it work then? everybody can create a denylist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:43 AM
Anyone can yes, but would you support that list is the question
07:43
You have to get validators to agree to use the list
07:44
And a majority need to have it for it to mean anything
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Anyone can yes, but would you support that list is the question
that will not be sustainable. that means all validators would need to review lists. and handle false positives. that will multiply the effort.
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Testa
that will not be sustainable. that means all validators would need to review lists. and handle false positives. that will multiply the effort.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:45 AM
Well maybe they won't support a list that doesn't have a reporting method
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so either there will never be a list because validators don't care. or there will be an overly harsh list because all lists are included
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:45 AM
Not the validators themselves managing it
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that is offloading the challenge to create a committee, at which the community is failing, to validators. I don't see how that could be successful
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 7:46 AM
They choose to support the network being secure and what lists are used Id hope they don't choose to use lists with bad explanations of what they're doing to select people
07:46
Or maybe not support lists without an appeals process
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a lot of validators belong to investors. I doub't that they will take the time to look into this with the required scrutiny.
07:47
if the community can't handle a denylist then a single validator operator can't either..
07:47
and who would pay for the effort of maintaining a list?
07:47
too many questions I guess for me 😭
07:48
and no easy solution
👍 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 8:17 AM
Hopefully the journey becomes clearer with the next hip update
08:17
And I'm 100% happy to run a live talk session on discord stages or yt or anything to help explain it
👍 1
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Is there any mechanism allow banned hotspots come out of the deny list right now? If not I‘m afraid it is not a complete solution to the current situation, there’s no way for those gamers to turn over a new leaf
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Merikon
Is there any mechanism allow banned hotspots come out of the deny list right now? If not I‘m afraid it is not a complete solution to the current situation, there’s no way for those gamers to turn over a new leaf
the current list has nothing to do with HIP40. and HIP40 does currently not define what happens if there is a mistake on the list
09:16
it is not even agreed yet what constitutes gaming and what not..
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Hopefully the journey becomes clearer with the next hip update
I apologize for the gaming and my hotspots are exactly included into the denylist Honestly speaking I will not do that again and will take action to deploy them at the right place. I wonder how long will it take to get me out of this denylist?
😒 1
🤨 1
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Testa
it is not even agreed yet what constitutes gaming and what not..
Exactly, there’s no criteria for gaming. That’s why a conservative filter will lead to so many mistakes
👎 1
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Testa
the current list has nothing to do with HIP40. and HIP40 does currently not define what happens if there is a mistake on the list
What about the current deny list managed by Helium Inc. Is there any function to correct error or just let someone behave well out of the deny list?
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Merikon
What about the current deny list managed by Helium Inc. Is there any function to correct error or just let someone behave well out of the deny list?
no
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Testa
no
That sounds not reasonable. If I want to buy a second hand hotspot, I may take risk that it is a banned hotspot
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Merikon
That sounds not reasonable. If I want to buy a second hand hotspot, I may take risk that it is a banned hotspot
they want to add a warning to the helium app
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hntminer
I apologize for the gaming and my hotspots are exactly included into the denylist Honestly speaking I will not do that again and will take action to deploy them at the right place. I wonder how long will it take to get me out of this denylist?
kinda hope your banned forever
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Merikon
What about the current deny list managed by Helium Inc. Is there any function to correct error or just let someone behave well out of the deny list?
the thing is anybody can make mistake, chance for former gamer like me to confess and expiate my guilt would be essential to the people's network
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hntminer
the thing is anybody can make mistake, chance for former gamer like me to confess and expiate my guilt would be essential to the people's network
I assume you want to pay back the "gamed" HNTs?
👆 2
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resonable forfeit would be okhakeem
🤔 1
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Testa
they want to add a warning to the helium app
Sounds not bad A complete deny mechanism still needs the way out tho
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hntminer
I apologize for the gaming and my hotspots are exactly included into the denylist Honestly speaking I will not do that again and will take action to deploy them at the right place. I wonder how long will it take to get me out of this denylist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 10:01 AM
the deny list has been removed
10:01
there is no list right now
10:02
it wasn't hip40 but detection of fake RF data, stop doing it and you're likely to be removed fully (edited)
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hntminer
resonable forfeit would be okhakeem
but no way to distribute that to the people you stole from. so easier to just make an example of you all so as to not encourage future gamers. Let's face it, the only reason you're here is because you got caught. And now suddenly you've seen the light. LOL.
💯 3
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it wasn't hip40 but detection of fake RF data, stop doing it and you're likely to be removed fully (edited)
Sir, u mean they still have chance be removed fully and get back to normal? i thought u said when hip40 implemented, it will still ban the gamers in deny list but let the innocent people out
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LOSTGE
Sir, u mean they still have chance be removed fully and get back to normal? i thought u said when hip40 implemented, it will still ban the gamers in deny list but let the innocent people out
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 11:12 AM
there is a deny list created by helium, thats been taken out of the current firmware release but will coming back, it did select a lot of hotspots falsely and they will be working on a new list
11:12
as for hip40, thats all future work so no lists exist yet
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Deleted User 01/14/2022 11:38 AM
can you be added to a denylist based solely on high earnings? for example I am planning on ordering a 30ft telescopic pole. i expect my earnings to be high in comparison to peers in my area. will i be red flagged or is the denylist only based on manipulation of hardware.
👎 2
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Deleted User
can you be added to a denylist based solely on high earnings? for example I am planning on ordering a 30ft telescopic pole. i expect my earnings to be high in comparison to peers in my area. will i be red flagged or is the denylist only based on manipulation of hardware.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/14/2022 11:57 AM
The current one is only based on bad RF meta data apparently
👍 1
11:57
As for future lists it's hard to say but unlikely if you're doing everything right
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hntminer
I apologize for the gaming and my hotspots are exactly included into the denylist Honestly speaking I will not do that again and will take action to deploy them at the right place. I wonder how long will it take to get me out of this denylist?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 12:32 PM
Sounds a lot like being sorry for being caught, not sorry for the gaming. 🤨
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@capcom Anymore hidden centralized govern code released outside HIPs &  community knowledge?
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nebra
@capcom Anymore hidden centralized govern code released outside HIPs &  community knowledge?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 2:54 PM
oh like the transmit distance hard cap they tried to sneak in the other month?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
oh like the transmit distance hard cap they tried to sneak in the other month?
Deleted User 01/14/2022 3:52 PM
Nonstop crippling people investing in their helium miners and equipment. Crazy.
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Deleted User
Nonstop crippling people investing in their helium miners and equipment. Crazy.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 4:01 PM
Not really. Their changes are always in the interest of building a stable network. Just sometimes has unintended knock-on effects that harm us.
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How to report cheater
18:15
Any url?
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hntminer
the thing is anybody can make mistake, chance for former gamer like me to confess and expiate my guilt would be essential to the people's network
Dude, you suck.
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Farzad
How to report cheater
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/14/2022 8:27 PM
suspots.com
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icusu
Dude, you suck.
no mercy. blocking their miners and make them useless. That's the only solution. Otherwise they can sell them for some money... we don't want gamers, cheaters and spoofers. Wherever they go, they create problems and only. Goodbye.
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we all want to know what's the next step about gaming hotspot or sth (your personnal idea or comunity conmense) . By now what we know is removal of denylist, right ? If it means official forgive unhonest guys and try to give them second chance?
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io hi are the HS removed?
00:04
Grace period or not
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mixtri
no mercy. blocking their miners and make them useless. That's the only solution. Otherwise they can sell them for some money... we don't want gamers, cheaters and spoofers. Wherever they go, they create problems and only. Goodbye.
A thief will always be a thief (edited)
heliumgreen 2
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cryptoz
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io hi are the HS removed?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 1:23 AM
Yeah the lists off right now
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But my hotspot still dead
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cryptoz
But my hotspot still dead
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 2:16 AM
dead or blacklisted?
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Blacklisted for sure
02:47
That's why it's dead
02:48
İt's on the list 1 HS
02:48
Spoofing how?
02:48
Monthly 2 hnt
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 2:50 AM
The list is not active anymore...
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Are you 100% sure?
02:52
So all the 13k HS are active again
02:52
With no restrictions
02:53
How can you add an account with 1 HS that is literally doing 2 hnt a month to the list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 2:53 AM
the list was near 40k hotspots
02:54
and it was removed in the latest firmware release
02:54
I think all manufacturers have released it now?
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So it's manufacturer related maybe need to wait for them than
02:54
How long will it stay like this
02:54
1 month?
02:55
For a new list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 2:55 AM
unsure, i know they wanted to do some work on showing it on explorer and to rebuild a new list without the false positives
02:55
but it'll likely return soon
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1 month?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 2:55 AM
no time frames have been mentioned
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Who is responsible for this directly
02:56
Who adds and removes
02:56
Who activates?
02:56
Who takes that decision
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 2:56 AM
helium inc
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cryptoz
Who is responsible for this directly
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 2:56 AM
#announcements
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İ understand so it was cap
👍 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:00 AM
it was at the request of cap yeah
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Yeah no prob
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:00 AM
after seeing the industrial size gaming clusters in warehouses
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As long as the reason and way is shared
03:01
Because otherwise there is no point
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:01 AM
a maths error crept into the selection tho and some legitimate hotspots got selected
03:01
so when it comes back (the vote went through) it wont have that bug
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And how do you get off that list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
so when it comes back (the vote went through) it wont have that bug
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:01 AM
We hope. 😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:01 AM
from what i understand we'll be able to see the list
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And how do you appeal
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:02 AM
in github to check it before use
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cryptoz
And how do you get off that list
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:02 AM
in this case, automatically.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:02 AM
stop gaming basically
03:02
it was very pinpointed, but because of the bug it went rouge almost
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Great but every when is it updated
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:03 AM
it'll be updated every firmware release
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İ see
03:03
The list will be updated too ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:03 AM
untill hip-40 is ready/voted in
03:03
yes, every firmware release
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What happens than
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:04 AM
hip40 proposes that groups focused on security can create a list, as long as validators support the list and choose to use it
03:05
and then a majority of validators in consensus also agree to a hotspot being denied, it will be
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hello, i have some questions to ask, First of all I have to admit that i really had cheated behaviors, i am really sorry but no any excuses, I am so regret but still need to ask is there any chance to remove my account off the blacklist, and 100% be sure that i will follow all the rules that Helium ordered, is there a way ?? PLS let me know ,thank u all
🤨 1
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Hi someone can tell me how to know if I miner is ob blacklist?
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huhugaji
hello, i have some questions to ask, First of all I have to admit that i really had cheated behaviors, i am really sorry but no any excuses, I am so regret but still need to ask is there any chance to remove my account off the blacklist, and 100% be sure that i will follow all the rules that Helium ordered, is there a way ?? PLS let me know ,thank u all
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:05 AM
maybe you can explain what you did, was it middleman?
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huhugaji
hello, i have some questions to ask, First of all I have to admit that i really had cheated behaviors, i am really sorry but no any excuses, I am so regret but still need to ask is there any chance to remove my account off the blacklist, and 100% be sure that i will follow all the rules that Helium ordered, is there a way ?? PLS let me know ,thank u all
Place them well and you get off it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:06 AM
please dont go into much detail
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As they are staying
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XchemicaL
Hi someone can tell me how to know if I miner is ob blacklist?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:06 AM
Once the list is active again, there will be a public denylist
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:06 AM
yeah generally, restore them to the indented setup
03:06
and you'll come off the list
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Can someone look at my wallet
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XchemicaL
Can someone look at my wallet
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:07 AM
the list is not active right now.
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XchemicaL
Hi someone can tell me how to know if I miner is ob blacklist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:07 AM
the old list has false positives in it too
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So how to know if my miners are involved?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:07 AM
(provided you got the new firmware update)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:07 AM
its not very useful
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XchemicaL
So how to know if my miners are involved?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:07 AM
https://blacklist.longap.community/. << the old list is here you can check with this tool
A site to check if your hotspot was possibly blacklisted by Helium.
03:07
but remember
03:07
it contains false positives too
03:08
and isnt active any more
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but remember
Okay thanks a lot
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io can you do a live q&a about this topic
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:09 AM
the general jist of what people have been saying is 1 antenna, 1 packet forwarder sent to one source
03:09
no editing of RF or trying to stuff or anything weird (edited)
03:09
and you wont be selected
03:09
and this is the current list thats coming back, not hip40
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cryptoz
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io can you do a live q&a about this topic
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:10 AM
sure, does sound like its needed right
👍 2
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This is the most important hip and topic
03:11
You should have at least 1 live call
03:11
About it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:11 AM
yeah
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İ mean i have 20 questions
👍 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:11 AM
Strike while the iron is hot. 😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:12 AM
I'll see what i can do
03:13
but i dont mind organising a hip40 YT live, i cant say much about the current deny, its not been discussed that much outside of #diy-packet-forwarder , im sure we'll get more info soon
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Since when it was activated. How where they chosen. Who was doing the stats. Who published it how was this known by some and not by others. How can you avoid the list as soon as possible who to contact if hotspot doesnt come off the list what if validators don't update the list what if some do and some don't. What if the list gets personal and some add false hotspots. Shouldn't first mapping the are be the real option 1 . And so on
👎 2
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Where is the ban list
03:16
GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
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cryptoz
Since when it was activated. How where they chosen. Who was doing the stats. Who published it how was this known by some and not by others. How can you avoid the list as soon as possible who to contact if hotspot doesnt come off the list what if validators don't update the list what if some do and some don't. What if the list gets personal and some add false hotspots. Shouldn't first mapping the are be the real option 1 . And so on
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:16 AM
sure, we need a summary right, its all been said in #diy-packet-forwarder but its spread over a couple of days
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Is this official?
03:16
İt's gone
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:17 AM
that is what was in
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:17 AM
its been removed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
sure, we need a summary right, its all been said in #diy-packet-forwarder but its spread over a couple of days
Well people come here since it's related to this hip
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:17 AM
its not
03:17
hip-40 isnt in
03:17
this is not hip40
03:17
this is a list helium produced themselves, hip40 aims to be decentralised and public
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Where is the black list then?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:17 AM
there isnt one right now
03:17
its been removed
👆 2
03:18
and it was voted to be put back in
03:18
but the lists being redone
03:18
without the bug
👍 1
03:18
Thanks
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:18 AM
were you on it?
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cryptoz
Since when it was activated. How where they chosen. Who was doing the stats. Who published it how was this known by some and not by others. How can you avoid the list as soon as possible who to contact if hotspot doesnt come off the list what if validators don't update the list what if some do and some don't. What if the list gets personal and some add false hotspots. Shouldn't first mapping the are be the real option 1 . And so on
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:18 AM
None of that can be shared, otherwise the cheaters would just avoid the detection.
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I don't know
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:18 AM
I can probably help understand if you were a false positive (edited)
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OnionBro
I don't know
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:19 AM
A site to check if your hotspot was possibly blacklisted by Helium.
👍 1
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I have challenge rewords
03:20
Thanks
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nebra
@capcom Anymore hidden centralized govern code released outside HIPs &  community knowledge?
@capcom radio silence💩
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Bloemfontein South Africa, 2 wallets basically popped up the last 3 days 1 with 37 hotspots and the other 38 hotspots. Few days prior some of these hotspots were witnessing in China! Can someone please have a look and remove if possible as someone would like to put up actual hotspots but can't as most of areas are now covered.
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Sayet
Bloemfontein South Africa, 2 wallets basically popped up the last 3 days 1 with 37 hotspots and the other 38 hotspots. Few days prior some of these hotspots were witnessing in China! Can someone please have a look and remove if possible as someone would like to put up actual hotspots but can't as most of areas are now covered.
HNT.solutions 01/15/2022 3:42 AM
Check pins & add to suspots. And don't stop adding legitimate HS's in the same area! 😎
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nebra
@capcom radio silence💩
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:44 AM
Dude... it's 3:43am on a saturday here. Chill.
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Sayet
Bloemfontein South Africa, 2 wallets basically popped up the last 3 days 1 with 37 hotspots and the other 38 hotspots. Few days prior some of these hotspots were witnessing in China! Can someone please have a look and remove if possible as someone would like to put up actual hotspots but can't as most of areas are now covered.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/15/2022 3:45 AM
This is not a channel for reporting hotspots. suspots.com
03:45
NM... just saw HNT-UAE's reply. lol
🥳 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This is not a channel for reporting hotspots. suspots.com
is suspots something official?
05:37
if you report something there what happens?
05:37
Can I see reported hotspots on the map somewhere?
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QQQ
is suspots something official?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 01/15/2022 5:50 AM
Suspots was developed by @Radrob to let the community help with collecting data on suspicious hotspots
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Can we vote this in already? F THE SPOOFERS
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I thought this HIP passed
12:10
What was the vote for?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 12:21 PM
The list helium created, that's not hip40 but rather an internal ban list made by helium
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AstuteDrake 01/15/2022 2:39 PM
HIP42 had a temperature check vote. HIP40 vote is in the works I hope…
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andrearocklmns 01/15/2022 3:04 PM
how to resolve unjustified banned on miner ?
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andrearocklmns
how to resolve unjustified banned on miner ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 3:18 PM
The denylist was removed, there are no denies right now (edited)
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andrearocklmns 01/15/2022 3:46 PM
Thanks
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The list helium created, that's not hip40 but rather an internal ban list made by helium
Since hip40 has been passed the vote, how will the new hip40 denylist be generated? Just pick the old blacklist created by helium, or regenerated another brand new one?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 5:28 PM
The current deny list is not hip40
17:28
Hip40 vote hopefully soon
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I bought a second hand hotspot which is in blacklist. i knew it was released by miner firmware 01.12. I am still worried about if it will be banned after hip40 anyway even I operate it legally.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Hip40 vote hopefully soon
What happened to those hotspots banned before, but operate legally after hip40. Still banned or not?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/15/2022 5:35 PM
Hip40 is not live
17:35
And the old ban list had been removed for now
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
And the old ban list had been removed for now
Thanks for your hard work.
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How do you find the ban list and if a hotspot is on it
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Glue Factory 3.0 01/15/2022 6:12 PM
So what happen to the vote to continue the ban?
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Glue Factory 3.0
So what happen to the vote to continue the ban?
As the Helium Network has grown, so too has the prevalence of malicious activity and institutional cheating. This activity seeks to game the system with the sole intent of exploiting Proof-of-Coverage rewards without providing any real value to the network. Should Helium, Inc continue to temporarily manage the denylist that is embedded in miner...
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Glue Factory 3.0 01/15/2022 6:15 PM
So if voting is closed why are they back on the network?
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because the vote results didn't immediately trigger an actual change in hotspot firmware on nearly 500,000 devices.
😆 1
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synfinatic
because the vote results didn't immediately trigger an actual change in hotspot firmware on nearly 500,000 devices.
ShadowBanned 01/15/2022 11:56 PM
my Nebra - magic black zebra hash values matched with one on the list. I had fiddled with it for over a month trying to fix it, even thinking it had an issue with the lora concentrator. It just came up roughly ~24 hours ago. I accidentally paired to the wrong AP and deployed it in the wrong location (asserted incorrectly) for 5 days. I'm assuming this is what caused it to get blacklisted. I still don't know if this is purely coincidental or whatnot, but just wanted to share my experience.
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Kay - Cosmos IoT 01/16/2022 12:58 AM
Is it possible to report hotspots to the denylist? Here in the Netherlands, 4 days ago a lot of synchrobit miners showed up and where placed all in 1 day. But the miners are placed like 2 hours drive for each other. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/148tjhkynvDYHg5TCaXgcGaZGccQUDUCNkqhNqLnoSXibyNdTHc/hotspots
00:58
This is not the only account that is doing this trick, i already spotted 15 accounts!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The denylist was removed, there are no denies right now (edited)
It's a pity the deny list is removed again. My rewards dropped immideately. As there are many cheat miners active in 🇳🇱. Earlier this week, great rewards
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Kay - Cosmos IoT
Is it possible to report hotspots to the denylist? Here in the Netherlands, 4 days ago a lot of synchrobit miners showed up and where placed all in 1 day. But the miners are placed like 2 hours drive for each other. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/148tjhkynvDYHg5TCaXgcGaZGccQUDUCNkqhNqLnoSXibyNdTHc/hotspots
Yup this happens a lot. You can report them on suspot.com
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zzeddd
It's a pity the deny list is removed again. My rewards dropped immideately. As there are many cheat miners active in 🇳🇱. Earlier this week, great rewards
Kay - Cosmos IoT 01/16/2022 1:39 AM
Same, does it help to report them on suspot.com?
👍 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/16/2022 2:34 AM
It can help as it's a source people can research to find gaming patterns
04:35
pls check this crazy account
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zzeddd
It's a pity the deny list is removed again. My rewards dropped immideately. As there are many cheat miners active in 🇳🇱. Earlier this week, great rewards
Yup, The Netherlands are a fkn mess right now.
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We really need asap a solution for Netherlands...iam thinking to shutdown my hotspot for a couple days. Its not worthy anymore. Today iam on 0.06 and last witness was 5 hours ago
😢 1
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It’s a bit annoying they removed the blacklist to be fair. They know these miners are cheating the system yet they allow them to crack on doing it again. It’s like cheating on a test and getting found out, to then be given your test paper back and being allowed to crack on.
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Cendity
Yup, The Netherlands are a fkn mess right now.
Yup. I hope they bring back the ban-list asap. Those shitloads of fraudulent miners also bring the reward scales down
09:18
@capcom when will the ban-list come back? (Get reactivated) (edited)
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It's absolutely ridiculous. Legitimate miners normally earning $400-600 a month are down to $1-5 a day ever since roughly 250 fraudulent SyncroB.it magically appeared all around the Netherlands. It's one disgusting mess at the moment.
👍 1
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If Helium had worked with the community from the start this whole mess could been avoided. But that's what happens when you centralize control.
👎 1
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Im looking forward for the blacklist solution, a blacklist is absolute needed. But there where many innocent miners on the blacklist. I was one of them, I have no idea why I was on it. Just rewarding around 0.2HNT a day. Im afraid when the blacklist will be active again that Im still on it. Helium isnt really co orperating, or openly talking about this.
💯 1
👎 1
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peanutsarehairy 01/16/2022 10:40 AM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Hi Neil,  Is it possible to add the below.... all (14 in total) came online at the exact same time, tick all the suspots.com boxes 12 of them only talk to each other and the best part is they are all located in impossible places as most of it is my land (I own a farm) I tried adding onto suspots.com but it just keeps hanging Main wallet  13WiYFbJhyoNwufGkVkZDQ64BWuYbXCsNYoCfogotYMjfD9w9Am Short Velvet Puma 11Phw89cTeQV4BfZu4HHrUTCn54q9PSFwbBVpbo6KLpXXcN96ja Formal Hotpink Haddock 112k7uzMSrGukSFte4JaAUUmA17nAYc7JK25a4gU6HFBvkqNgytM Large Fossilized Donkey 112TeqDvWMG3kNrK82NGPUHaTUpR5jzXxrFQm88bCBbbDy11aAxC Amusing Tawny Mongoose 112TH7Y8hQ2yXxrdyvaDaRozz2RyhqNykShqPM4czsg55XjeKA5b Upbeat Pistachio Cheetah 112USnvFdq5Xxe9JrdQCHzAQdDhGrhbCnXG8F7cMa48dTMDvg9VK Old Oily Beaver 112AQr4UAyJPpYf8YefJDaS1KEuFGcWVfJ22zMAsTELJQHjRhRct Fierce Lavender Beetle 11rMg8qUwQJeiz9sgPGisNQXC7KPsUGprusLDMnMVW1DNbtBVyr Brave Merlot Sawfish 112owLaKdz6WygAGB2KiiQjdXjELeMYfNPy2JwkysUhBr8TG69ks Amusing Pastel Worm 112G8SnjVHvTRGQfoQhSt2hFmP5PP529f4MXUHapqwRtQtnaJQ4g Wonderful Denim Lizard 11YB7VX5WrWgNRsTJTMiV1D2RSt7Zpu7NuLtJDWP77hVGxdCKJq Noisy Flint Goldfish 112XTDP2PcDe3WgcKG2hAuxTpD4LF9kuxj9QAxdvDgX2VBg7zLfa Crazy Taupe Badger 112b7p6jfj1rY2iMnrEiJrfhYzjBn7Rgx12LtLtjk83C2VoeYuHZ Long Emerald Salamander 112rpQ2mAfM5NgwcURGDqNN179416MH31d4KgRinTUfLjgLi3fGc Spicy Pecan Flamingo 112E3bsSFMWQKJiQHSCWUY9iGQYLzccQxj6zoLjo7uiETMirgbb2 Thanks,
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/16/2022 10:41 AM
Hip40 isn't live
10:42
I'm not the one to add anyone to w list either just to be clear
10:42
The current shadowban list (thats been disabled) is curated by helium and automatically at that, I'm sure we'll hear more about it and when they plan to add it back soon
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The current shadowban list (thats been disabled) is curated by helium and automatically at that, I'm sure we'll hear more about it and when they plan to add it back soon
peanutsarehairy 01/16/2022 10:57 AM
Thanks Neil, wasn't sure what the current script was. Will wait on Hip40 going live and see what happens 👍🏻
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Hello, is there anyway to get a miner unbanned or see if it is banned? @everyone
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Currently there are no bans
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Wondering how many got banned mistakenly....
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Mine and many others went offline a couple days ago. Now I’m missing out on hnt and don’t know what to do about it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/16/2022 12:50 PM
the deny list was removed in the latest firmware, its not active right now so it sounds unreleated
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If it is true and no miners are banned in the moment why the earnings dropped down so significant. Are there issues with the network? If it is only related with the cheaters then the block list exist for a very long time, because only the network outage dropped so much
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Since bans are lifted the rewards went down big time. Pfff helium project going strong 😒
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the deny list was removed in the latest firmware, its not active right now so it sounds unreleated
So there is no way to do something about a offline hotspot? Mine was working perfectly fine a week ago
12:53
How do you see the blacklist?
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I don't believe in this story and in the meanwhile I doubt about honesty and transparency of helium itself - sorry guys, I really loved this project
👎 1
facepalm 2
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Same losing faith and trust in this project more and more 😒
👍 2
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capalot
So there is no way to do something about a offline hotspot? Mine was working perfectly fine a week ago
?
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For me the voting was just fake, because the biggest wallets had the loudest voice. Also voted does not mean that it will be implemented, when and how
facepalm 1
12:57
Hopefully all this was not just a huge scam
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
To implement a black list - not to remove
12:58
Was implemented without announcement and voting. Now voted and was removed as I understood
13:01
1. Long time I had the feeling the nobody wanted to say that there are spoofers 2. Opinion was, OK there are some, but we can't do nothing or very limited 3. "blacklist" implemented without announcement or voting .....
13:02
I lost trust in the whole project. It is just worser and worser. As long somebody is selling miners....
👋 1
13:03
No announcement, no communication - neither from helium neither from the miner manufacturers
👎 1
13:05
Always some reasons. 2 devices discovered with issues (1 lost day) - services started recovery (+ days lost) - miners has to be updated, bla bla bla
13:05
Fake arguments why earnings down
13:06
Most probably hiding whatever
13:07
Honestly I would not be suprised to see this topics as breaking news on the TVs
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Support blacklist management! I still have some thoughts on this HIP40. 1. To punish dishonest hotspots, the blacklist has a timeliness, such as one month. The value of each hotspot is 500-1000. If helium is a decentralized blockchain, please respect "individual ownership", otherwise is it different from traditional centralized companies? 2. This community vote is like a joke, I hope helium can be more open and transparent. If no abnormality is found in the firmware, If the proposal is passed before the blacklist, not now.
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Only after there are legal provisions can the "criminals" be arrested and punished. What's the situation now? Wow, arrest it first and then legislate it. It's very democratic and community governance.
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imstone
Only after there are legal provisions can the "criminals" be arrested and punished. What's the situation now? Wow, arrest it first and then legislate it. It's very democratic and community governance.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/16/2022 6:07 PM
Please go back and read the history on what happened before coming in here and assuming a bunch of stuff that is not true.
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imstone
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Support blacklist management! I still have some thoughts on this HIP40. 1. To punish dishonest hotspots, the blacklist has a timeliness, such as one month. The value of each hotspot is 500-1000. If helium is a decentralized blockchain, please respect "individual ownership", otherwise is it different from traditional centralized companies? 2. This community vote is like a joke, I hope helium can be more open and transparent. If no abnormality is found in the firmware, If the proposal is passed before the blacklist, not now.
if there is a time limit on denylists, then bad actors can just sell their hotspots for a profit. better to do a lifetime ban if they are indeed found to be cheating. otherwise people will just "buy" their hotspot from themselves on ebay to clean them.
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Now the gaming miners go offline? I see many miners go offline on the explore website
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io good morning i read the #foundation-announcements but i came to a question what if a validator doesn't update the list at all cuz he is not able or doesn't care. How many should have it and what if you don't get removed from the list because the people who made are to busy for your inquiry you do realize that there are at least 50k spoofing which means headache for people who want to check the real data
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imstone
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Support blacklist management! I still have some thoughts on this HIP40. 1. To punish dishonest hotspots, the blacklist has a timeliness, such as one month. The value of each hotspot is 500-1000. If helium is a decentralized blockchain, please respect "individual ownership", otherwise is it different from traditional centralized companies? 2. This community vote is like a joke, I hope helium can be more open and transparent. If no abnormality is found in the firmware, If the proposal is passed before the blacklist, not now.
"If helium is a decentralized blockchain, please respect "individual ownership", otherwise is it different from traditional centralized companies?" agreed
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From a business perspective there is one big draw back in centralized blacklists - if I am offering a service based on the network (shifting network services away from TTN to Helium) and I can not ensure connectivity - where does the real value will be derived from? Just mining? But than there is no scamming by setting up devices at wrong locations, because that is useless...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 1:00 AM
Cross post from Dewi announcements
01:00
From Scott: Last Friday we hosted the second session of our POC Security Working Group. From the Foundation's perspective we have 3 goals from within this group: 1. The effective deployment of more resources to analyze anomalies within POC rewards distribution. 2. Discuss the various means to disincentivize gaming and make the pursuit uneconomical. 3. Discuss the various implementations to reduce gaming including changes to the POC protocol or denylist frameworks. The Foundation's point of view is that if any centralized management or control of network access is considered, it is as a tool of last resort to ensure the network's long-term integrity. Our aim is that any such implementation should include some measure of community governance and only be a temporary departure from our path to credible decentralization. POC Working Group call: https://vimeo.com/666106595 Drafted Distributed Denylist Framework: https://neighborly-beret-bf5.notion.site/Distributed-Denylist-Framework-Spec-b9ff7ca663de4e4da3c281beffe86919
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pinned a message to this channel. 01/17/2022 1:01 AM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 1:19 AM
As the announcement said if you've got any ideas or feedback please post them here :)
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Great work this team is doing 👌 One question: If a validator wants to carry a denylist but prefers to be very conservative. Would it be able to cross check lists and only deny a hotspot that is on multiple lists, or would it mean there would be another list needed?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 2:07 AM
Yeah I've thought about that myself
02:08
I kinda assumed eventually maybe an aggregate list based on something you mentioned or close to it (a list of lists they trust kind of thing) could exist
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Sloth
Great work this team is doing 👌 One question: If a validator wants to carry a denylist but prefers to be very conservative. Would it be able to cross check lists and only deny a hotspot that is on multiple lists, or would it mean there would be another list needed?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 2:09 AM
The way it works is that it'll fetch all lists in its config and merge, so it wouldn't be able to do this itself (a validator)
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Makes sense. There was always this discussion that mappers should be rewarded for their work(once it's clear how you can securely do mapping). Would it make sense to collect each denied witness and use this to reward denylist operators/mappers/others? Something that was mentioned in the meeting was the amount of work required to maintain deny lists. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
As the announcement said if you've got any ideas or feedback please post them here :)
Fantastic news! Thanks for taking this to the next stage 👍
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Sloth
Makes sense. There was always this discussion that mappers should be rewarded for their work(once it's clear how you can securely do mapping). Would it make sense to collect each denied witness and use this to reward denylist operators/mappers/others? Something that was mentioned in the meeting was the amount of work required to maintain deny lists. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 2:44 AM
thats an interesting take for sure, I'd have to understand the technical limitations here a bit further to know if this was possible (edited)
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I had thought of a cool feature if it was decided that the true decentralized path forward would be taken. Instead of simply making the rewards disappear the rewards instead would be collected in a hold account. This would be for the length of the ban or until the party proves a legit setup. If after 30 days, the ban maintains itself then the list operators would get these rewards and then the rewards would than be officially stopped. That way legit setups won’t lose rewards over the appeal process and the operators could get compensation for time and they only get this compensation if the ban is legitimate (edited)
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But in that way you stimulate for list operators to process appeals very, very slowly. Buy 1000 ecc keys, ban them. Maintain the ban and cash out (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 4:01 AM
every-time something new is proposed it takes a lot of thought power to work every angle of attack and limitation lol
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Sloth
But in that way you stimulate for list operators to process appeals very, very slowly. Buy 1000 ecc keys, ban them. Maintain the ban and cash out (edited)
I think it all hinges on the appeal process. Before I comment any more I’ll need to watch the latest video and re read the spec. But the appeal process should be not accepted or denied on the denylist side in my opinion for this. But all work needs some incentive (edited)
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Anthonyra
I had thought of a cool feature if it was decided that the true decentralized path forward would be taken. Instead of simply making the rewards disappear the rewards instead would be collected in a hold account. This would be for the length of the ban or until the party proves a legit setup. If after 30 days, the ban maintains itself then the list operators would get these rewards and then the rewards would than be officially stopped. That way legit setups won’t lose rewards over the appeal process and the operators could get compensation for time and they only get this compensation if the ban is legitimate (edited)
maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 5:56 AM
Nah it should be implemented that you drop the rewards. Tbh, it adds so much complex stuff to the chain that isn't really going to help
05:56
Yes money talks and PoC has all the money
05:57
But i think there needs to consideration on keeping the chain small, and the main thing is data transfers
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If you want people to do the work there needs to be an incentive. We can't expect DeWi to foot the bill forever though.. and if they do isn't that a centralized control over lists? Just saying, incentives for good lists need to exist
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maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 5:58 AM
I work with someone who is trying to put a 1/4 million sensors and using helium. The cost is infinite, and the network is going down way way to offten (edited)
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Anthonyra
If you want people to do the work there needs to be an incentive. We can't expect DeWi to foot the bill forever though.. and if they do isn't that a centralized control over lists? Just saying, incentives for good lists need to exist
maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 5:58 AM
It would be a list like adblock
05:58
Few people pay for it
05:58
And dewi has enough funds imo to keep this up
05:58
A million hnt is enough for anyone
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Well, I'm pretty active in the community and I won't be maintaining any list... we will all see FUD lists though if there's nothing incentivizing it otherwise. Validators could see that and not pick any... (edited)
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Anthonyra
Well, I'm pretty active in the community and I won't be maintaining any list... we will all see FUD lists though if there's nothing incentivizing it otherwise. Validators could see that and not pick any... (edited)
maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 6:00 AM
You won't, but someone will
06:00
How many people mantain an adblock list?
06:00
A few right?
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People rarely write HIPs this will be the same but not my place just a suggestion
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Anthonyra
People rarely write HIPs this will be the same but not my place just a suggestion
maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 6:01 AM
People do write hips, just that ideas are a dime a dozen
06:01
But a good idea is hard
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We will see soon enough I suppose
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maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 6:02 AM
Validators will use the committee list by default which is set in the config file of the validator. Validators can add other lists here or opt out by removing the default list url.
06:02
Direct from the hip
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maco2035 🐮
Validators will use the committee list by default which is set in the config file of the validator. Validators can add other lists here or opt out by removing the default list url.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:02 AM
read the new one
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maco2035 🐮
Validators will use the committee list by default which is set in the config file of the validator. Validators can add other lists here or opt out by removing the default list url.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:02 AM
06:02
its opt in now (edited)
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maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 6:02 AM
Link?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:02 AM
^^
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maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 6:04 AM
Perfect
06:04
I think you should edit the git page too
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:04 AM
yeah next step
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maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 6:04 AM
Throw this at the top to read for people.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:04 AM
i asked to post the video from fridays meeting where it was being discussed
06:05
so its not made it to the hip yet
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maco2035 🐮 01/17/2022 6:05 AM
Cool
06:06
I would love to watch all the videos, and participate more. But I am 8k miles away from my laptop
06:07
The question is if a hotspot is flagged by X% of the Val in a CG how much is X to block those transactions?
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It takes 29 validators to agree to create a block. So I imagine that many
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:13 AM
2f+1
06:14
is the formula they say for consensus it should be denied to pass
06:14
my maths isn't that good but its in the video had to find it (edited)
06:14
lol
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Deleted User 01/17/2022 6:25 AM
do you plan on releasing guidelines describing in detail everything that is considered cheating?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:27 AM
I'm not sure on that, if you define something as cheating it quickly changes the method they use for detection. its up to the list maker to really define what they see as cheating and how their generating the list, then if the community supports that list it'll be used
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great job! when will the hip40 deploy?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:29 AM
there is no set date yet, we also have to have to vote
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'm not sure on that, if you define something as cheating it quickly changes the method they use for detection. its up to the list maker to really define what they see as cheating and how their generating the list, then if the community supports that list it'll be used
Deleted User 01/17/2022 6:34 AM
that was my interpretation. so each list can have different definitions of cheating. im my opinion cheating guidelines should be created at the top level of helium and voted on. once its voted in the list operators are enforcers and reporters of the voted guidelines. new hotspot owners would be required to e-sign the guidelines prior to 12 words generating in the application. so if someone cheats and denied helium has a copy of their e-signed cheating disclosure. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:34 AM
that adds way to much complexity
06:35
its truly up to the community to decide by what lists are used
06:35
would love to hear some alternatives to hip40 is anyone has any ideas
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Deleted User 01/17/2022 6:37 AM
you are going to deny people for "cheating" without defining "cheating"
06:39
list operators will make up any rule they please to label you a cheater without supervision. "you make 1 hnt a day, must be a cheater" but in reality maybe the user purchased a 40ft pole or in a high rise condo building. which would explain the unusually high earning.
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I guess getting on a list is an automated system according to some parameters. Will there be a process for a manual submissions into a list. If so maybe there could be a tax so people don't spam the manual list with say high earners. Getting off a list could also involve a hnt tax. Pay a fine for being bad.?
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Rav
I guess getting on a list is an automated system according to some parameters. Will there be a process for a manual submissions into a list. If so maybe there could be a tax so people don't spam the manual list with say high earners. Getting off a list could also involve a hnt tax. Pay a fine for being bad.?
Deleted User 01/17/2022 6:56 AM
"getting on a list is an automated system according to some parameters" how often can the list operators change parameters? how will hotspot owners be notified of new parameters?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 6:57 AM
its up to the list maker how they generate the list right? if you boil it down to its basic elements a list provider just uploads the list to a public source
06:57
the lists are then polled i think it was said every few hours for changes
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Just listened to the working group call and I share some of the concerns expressed there. One that occurs to me and wasn't discussed is that denied receipts will take one of the 18 slots in the transaction. This leads to legitimate receipts being ignored and not rewarded. Is it possible to move the random selection process to the validators instead of the challenger and ensure that 18 valid receipts are chosen? From my understanding the concern with putting more receipts on chain is bloat. Maybe the challenger sends 25 random receipts to the validator and the validator select 18 from that 25 which are all valid?
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maco2035 🐮
How many people mantain an adblock list?
There are many ad/malware blocklists in the world, and many IP reputation lists. Go search for lists available to folks who use pihole. At least a few of the popular list seem to operate on a shady business model like this: 1) Be really liberal it what you block, if a single IP is reported, maybe block the whole /24 or /16 subnet. 2) On your website offer two ways for an IP to be removed from the list. One way is free, but no guarantees for how long it will take. The other is an expedited service that costs money. Somehow the free option seems to take forever or never happen 3) If you're being really "awesome" offer a monthly subscription to keep an IP range off the blocklist if it ever shows up.
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chandlernic 01/17/2022 7:16 AM
How can I appeal a black list? Have a hotspot installed at my house and got on hotspotty and it’s on black list?
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Deleted User
list operators will make up any rule they please to label you a cheater without supervision. "you make 1 hnt a day, must be a cheater" but in reality maybe the user purchased a 40ft pole or in a high rise condo building. which would explain the unusually high earning.
This is often a tradeoff between centralized and decentralized systems. In decentralized everyone has choices, how to put a thing on a list, what list to use, etc. You can incentive and nudge, but enforcing is hard.
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chandlernic
How can I appeal a black list? Have a hotspot installed at my house and got on hotspotty and it’s on black list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/17/2022 7:17 AM
the current deny list has been removed
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chandlernic
How can I appeal a black list? Have a hotspot installed at my house and got on hotspotty and it’s on black list?
send a selfie with your hotspot to one of the regular guys here 😉
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chandlernic 01/17/2022 7:19 AM
Lol I would if it keeps me off the list @Krassi 🤣 @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io how do I stop it from being on the list in the future don’t wana get shut down when it comes into effect
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chandlernic
Lol I would if it keeps me off the list @Krassi 🤣 @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io how do I stop it from being on the list in the future don’t wana get shut down when it comes into effect
keep your antenna disconnected ? 😭 IDK
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chandlernic
Lol I would if it keeps me off the list @Krassi 🤣 @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io how do I stop it from being on the list in the future don’t wana get shut down when it comes into effect
Deleted User 01/17/2022 7:25 AM
so you were added to the list without any notification or explanation. you just found out by going to hotspotty? now you ask how to be removed and there is no answer? (edited)
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Hi, what's the link to the denylist again please? I have 5 great hotspots offline since today
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timdmd
Hi, what's the link to the denylist again please? I have 5 great hotspots offline since today
Deleted User 01/17/2022 7:26 AM
the list is not active. so your issue is something else
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chandlernic 01/17/2022 7:27 AM
@Deleted User yeah just got on hotspotty and said I was on black list
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Deleted User
the list is not active. so your issue is something else
are you sure? Maybe it's a coincidence, but these are my top 5 from 13 hotspots
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chandlernic 01/17/2022 7:27 AM
Can’t add a photo to this channel but just said needs attention black listed
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rbrtio
Just listened to the working group call and I share some of the concerns expressed there. One that occurs to me and wasn't discussed is that denied receipts will take one of the 18 slots in the transaction. This leads to legitimate receipts being ignored and not rewarded. Is it possible to move the random selection process to the validators instead of the challenger and ensure that 18 valid receipts are chosen? From my understanding the concern with putting more receipts on chain is bloat. Maybe the challenger sends 25 random receipts to the validator and the validator select 18 from that 25 which are all valid?
This is definitely preferable- but likely a lot more feasible with light hotspots. This kind of block could come as an amendment to this hip.
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EdB-charlietango 01/17/2022 7:49 AM
The first part of this stream from last night talks about the denylist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru0mMeZG0u0. I was on the call last Friday so my impressions are included.
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chandlernic
@Deleted User yeah just got on hotspotty and said I was on black list
Deleted User 01/17/2022 7:50 AM
sorry my friend. i hope your situation gets resolved.
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From DNSBL and IP lists I have seen in other products, you end up with two ways to aggregate lists: 1) I set of features in the product itself to merge, regex match, whitelist, etc. This allows the user to take the union of lists, with some slight editing (e.g. never blocking 1.1.1.1 or never blocking *.aws.amazon.com) 2) Accept one or most lists, all editing is done outside of the product. IMO, #2 is the best fit for the validator code. I don't think it makes sense to have a set of rich list editing tools in the validator. So, this will likely lead to lists of lists, or maybe even services that let you do #1 and produce the result as a single list. I see the new proposal talks about JSON-RPC methods to edit the lists, I think this is should not be done. There are plenty of unix-y tools for managing sets of text items into a single set. (edited)
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rbrtio
Just listened to the working group call and I share some of the concerns expressed there. One that occurs to me and wasn't discussed is that denied receipts will take one of the 18 slots in the transaction. This leads to legitimate receipts being ignored and not rewarded. Is it possible to move the random selection process to the validators instead of the challenger and ensure that 18 valid receipts are chosen? From my understanding the concern with putting more receipts on chain is bloat. Maybe the challenger sends 25 random receipts to the validator and the validator select 18 from that 25 which are all valid?
I have tried to start a discussion about this here: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/931249368294637628. I had the same concern and also opted to send more witnesses (all actually) to the validators. You could still leave the random ordering to the challenger, the validators just have to reach consensus for top 18 "valid" witnesses from that randomly ordered list. (edited)
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FailHaze
I have tried to start a discussion about this here: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/931249368294637628. I had the same concern and also opted to send more witnesses (all actually) to the validators. You could still leave the random ordering to the challenger, the validators just have to reach consensus for top 18 "valid" witnesses from that randomly ordered list. (edited)
Is the concern about how much a beaconer would get rewarded due to having an invalid witness? Or maybe HIP-42? Now, I do have a PR that's been sitting for a while that incorporates needing to have witnesses to be considered interactive. If the hotspots are on a denylist it should result in them eventually having a 0 wits list and then after 3600 blocks be considered inactive which they'd be filtered on the challenger side next time they try to "witness". This however, is contingent on my PR going through. (edited)
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can any one send me the link to the deny list but not the github version
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vendetta
can any one send me the link to the deny list but not the github version
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 1:04 PM
There is no list right now.
13:05
And once a new list is active it won't be the same as the old one
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matmanmining 01/17/2022 4:44 PM
Why do you consider these to be cheating?
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matmanmining
Why do you consider these to be cheating?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:58 PM
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matmanmining
Why do you consider these to be cheating?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 4:59 PM
Witnessing to witnesses ratio is wayyyyy off. Same old exploit.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Witnessing to witnesses ratio is wayyyyy off. Same old exploit.
matmanmining 01/17/2022 6:30 PM
I get it....I ran a couple from the wallet that was posted and some were in violation of the witness/beacon ratio, others were not, but many were pushing the limit.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'm not sure on that, if you define something as cheating it quickly changes the method they use for detection. its up to the list maker to really define what they see as cheating and how their generating the list, then if the community supports that list it'll be used
The problem with that last part is that means there is incentive for people to support ban lists whether they are legit or not. Example, I could just support as many lists as I can to hopefully get as many lists activated as possible as long as my hotspot isn't on it. That way I reduce the number of hotspots on the network and theoretically increase my own earnings. Unfortunately I don't know another alternative. A centralized authority for choosing which lists to implement is an obvious problem as well. This is why I am very skeptical of this HIP. No matter what way we go about it there are glaring issues. I want to support it as the goal here is good so I hope we can find a way to implement it properly.
18:50
I think trying to minimize the incentive to cheat might be the best way to reduce it rather than ban lists. Something like HIP 42 where it doesn't necessarily stop the cheating but greatly reduces it by limiting how much you can earn by doing it.
18:50
and makes it more difficult as well
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Parylizer
The problem with that last part is that means there is incentive for people to support ban lists whether they are legit or not. Example, I could just support as many lists as I can to hopefully get as many lists activated as possible as long as my hotspot isn't on it. That way I reduce the number of hotspots on the network and theoretically increase my own earnings. Unfortunately I don't know another alternative. A centralized authority for choosing which lists to implement is an obvious problem as well. This is why I am very skeptical of this HIP. No matter what way we go about it there are glaring issues. I want to support it as the goal here is good so I hope we can find a way to implement it properly.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:50 PM
A validator doing that would be harming themselves though. Also it would require the vast majority of validators to do the same thing to have any effect.
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Parylizer
I think trying to minimize the incentive to cheat might be the best way to reduce it rather than ban lists. Something like HIP 42 where it doesn't necessarily stop the cheating but greatly reduces it by limiting how much you can earn by doing it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:51 PM
42 is great and all, but it only would affect of of the many exploits 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A validator doing that would be harming themselves though. Also it would require the vast majority of validators to do the same thing to have any effect.
I was more referring to BFGNeil's comment about lists being implemented based on community support. Obviously the validators could do what they want regardless of community's support.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:52 PM
44 would be a bit more of a catch-all for those gaming PoC rewards 🙂
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Parylizer
I was more referring to BFGNeil's comment about lists being implemented based on community support. Obviously the validators could do what they want regardless of community's support.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:52 PM
Right. The lists only are effective if the validators all agree for that CG 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
44 would be a bit more of a catch-all for those gaming PoC rewards 🙂
Maybe. The problem though with HIP 44 unless I am misunderstanding, is that they could still earn a lot without a proper setup that properly beacons etc. HIP 42 accomplishes a similar goal of putting a cap on earnings but it also enforces the primary goal of the network which is to provide valuable coverage. If you're not beaconing, then most likely (Not always) your setup isn't proper and not providing the type of coverage the network wants. So it kind of hits two birds with one stone, de-incentivizes the big cheating while incentivizing proper setups that benefit the network. (edited)
18:58
We do need to stabilize the network before HIP 42 can do what its intended though. As even 100% legit setups have issues beaconing sometimes.
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Parylizer
Maybe. The problem though with HIP 44 unless I am misunderstanding, is that they could still earn a lot without a proper setup that properly beacons etc. HIP 42 accomplishes a similar goal of putting a cap on earnings but it also enforces the primary goal of the network which is to provide valuable coverage. If you're not beaconing, then most likely (Not always) your setup isn't proper and not providing the type of coverage the network wants. So it kind of hits two birds with one stone, de-incentivizes the big cheating while incentivizing proper setups that benefit the network. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:58 PM
Yeah, 42 and 44 work well together.
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Parylizer
We do need to stabilize the network before HIP 42 can do what its intended though. As even 100% legit setups have issues beaconing sometimes.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 6:59 PM
Even with current p2p issues, we've been hard pressed to find healthy hotspots that would be limited by 42 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, 42 and 44 work well together.
Yeah maybe implementing both in a way that place nice together could be a good solution. I think as long as we set reasonable limits and we aren't limiting real setups. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Even with current p2p issues, we've been hard pressed to find healthy hotspots that would be limited by 42 🙂
I have seen many that would. That being said it would be a small amount though. Like 10-20% drop
19:01
Which might just mean it needs some fine tuning but it's close
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Parylizer
Yeah maybe implementing both in a way that place nice together could be a good solution. I think as long as we set reasonable limits and we aren't limiting real setups. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 7:01 PM
That the goal 🙂
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Parylizer
I have seen many that would. That being said it would be a small amount though. Like 10-20% drop
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 7:02 PM
Yeah? Please post them in the 42 channel. We're always looking for more data to make sure the HIP does what is intended.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That the goal 🙂
Awesome 👍 I would just feel horrible for those small group of people who put a TON of time and money into setups on towers etc just to be limited to same rewards as someone who just put an antenna in the attic or something. (edited)
19:04
I don't think think we want a situation where there is no incentive to install really great setups
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah? Please post them in the 42 channel. We're always looking for more data to make sure the HIP does what is intended.
Sure, I didn't make note of them but ill post any I see going forward. I know for sure one of my own is affected. I'd rather not post it for privacy though sorry.
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Parylizer
I don't think think we want a situation where there is no incentive to install really great setups
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 7:07 PM
Well... there is the thing that trips up people. "Great setup for me" is not always the same as "great setup for the network" 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well... there is the thing that trips up people. "Great setup for me" is not always the same as "great setup for the network" 😉
True and I did mean great setup for the network. Something that both witness and beacon equally well.
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Parylizer
Sure, I didn't make note of them but ill post any I see going forward. I know for sure one of my own is affected. I'd rather not post it for privacy though sorry.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/17/2022 7:07 PM
Well you could just post it an not claim it was yours... 😉 lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well you could just post it an not claim it was yours... 😉 lol
haha sshh dont say that.....now everyone will know.......😄
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Witnessing to witnesses ratio is wayyyyy off. Same old exploit.
This. A lot of beacons received, while very few witnesses reached. Very specific witnesses list. They could be doing noth location spoofing and packets forwarding
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Parylizer
haha sshh dont say that.....now everyone will know.......😄
gigimasinuta 01/18/2022 12:48 AM
I am just asking for a friend,you know the drill😂
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This crazy! this wallet has 65 hotspot each earns 0.8 - 2 hnt daily and 7 days avg beacons increased 700% for all of them! Man these guys are stealing the rewards while we are struggling to earn 10% what they do
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meazer
This crazy! this wallet has 65 hotspot each earns 0.8 - 2 hnt daily and 7 days avg beacons increased 700% for all of them! Man these guys are stealing the rewards while we are struggling to earn 10% what they do
Kay - Cosmos IoT 01/18/2022 10:42 AM
Yes, we can tackle them bij implenting hip 42. Otherwise give helium asap the denylist en take them down
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Kay - Cosmos IoT
Yes, we can tackle them bij implenting hip 42. Otherwise give helium asap the denylist en take them down
Hear hear! Let's stop the robbery
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Will VPN users be targeted by this HIP?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/18/2022 11:40 AM
Maybe? Depends if someone makes a list and validators choose to use it (I doubt it tho!)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Maybe? Depends if someone makes a list and validators choose to use it (I doubt it tho!)
A list creator won't have to reveal the criteria, so how to tell?
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Testa
A list creator won't have to reveal the criteria, so how to tell?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/18/2022 1:09 PM
I'd hope lists don't make it in that don't show how they are selecting hotspots
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'd hope lists don't make it in that don't show how they are selecting hotspots
I think validators either include all lists or none. You can't expect every validator operator to assess all lists
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/18/2022 1:10 PM
the choice is there for decentralisation, its not a good move to force certain lists
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the choice is there for decentralisation, its not a good move to force certain lists
it's not really a choice because they do not have the means to assess lists.
13:11
and by asking every validator owner to assess the lists you are multiplying the effort
13:12
so my guess is that instead of spending that efforts (days or weeks!) to assess the list, the governance, the implementation, etc, they will take none or all or anything else taht is easy
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Validator operators don't need to assess all lists, they just have the choice to pick a few. In picking those, I would expect that they pick the ones that they think are best aligned with the network.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'd hope lists don't make it in that don't show how they are selecting hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 1:52 PM
I kind of hope they don't. Exposing detection methods/criteria will just have the cheaters switch things up to avoid detection.
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Testa
so my guess is that instead of spending that efforts (days or weeks!) to assess the list, the governance, the implementation, etc, they will take none or all or anything else taht is easy
This problem exists today with IP reputation and DNS block lists. There are SOOOOO MANY. Which ones do I personally use? I did a little bit of searching, found some popular ones and looked at the reasons they are popular, then made my decisions. The set changes over time. As an example, one "good" blocklist had 1.1.1.1 and 8.8.8.8 it off and on for a few weeks. When I noticed, I just stopped using that list.
13:58
It ends up being a bit of a popularity contest, but people will often trust the opinions of others. I expect discussion on #validator-ops or in private chat to help me assess which lists I would apply to my validators. TBH, this will likely be mostly driven by the biggest VaaS providers. They're in a position to evaluate many lists, make an informed decision (or do whatever they want for their own reasons). I suspect as they make their decisions know, others will follow, then you have 50% of the validators all doing the same thing.
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krby
It ends up being a bit of a popularity contest, but people will often trust the opinions of others. I expect discussion on #validator-ops or in private chat to help me assess which lists I would apply to my validators. TBH, this will likely be mostly driven by the biggest VaaS providers. They're in a position to evaluate many lists, make an informed decision (or do whatever they want for their own reasons). I suspect as they make their decisions know, others will follow, then you have 50% of the validators all doing the same thing.
yeah exactly. but in your example you notice when the list is not ok, because you are affected. if a validator uses a list with e.g. 3% innocent HS then they would not notice that.
14:07
That is a good point though. I thought each wallet owner needs to chose the lists, not the validator operators
14:07
otherwise there is not really a decentralisation
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Testa
yeah exactly. but in your example you notice when the list is not ok, because you are affected. if a validator uses a list with e.g. 3% innocent HS then they would not notice that.
Ya, the same feedback isn't there, you're right.
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Is there anywhere to report spoofers for the current denylist yet?
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ScuL
Is there anywhere to report spoofers for the current denylist yet?
No there is no deny list currently active
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Hm, I've seen swarms of Pisces miners being disabled in Europe so somehow something must be denying them
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ScuL
Hm, I've seen swarms of Pisces miners being disabled in Europe so somehow something must be denying them
Well as we have learned, it's certainly possible they are being blocked some how behind the scenes but at the moment we are being told there is no deny list active. (edited)
19:32
Hopefully if they are being blocked, the devs will be honest this time (edited)
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ScuL
Hm, I've seen swarms of Pisces miners being disabled in Europe so somehow something must be denying them
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/18/2022 8:03 PM
The denylist didn't shut them down. The owners turned them off when the denylist stopped them from earning. A lot still haven't turned them back on yet.
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ScuL
Is there anywhere to report spoofers for the current denylist yet?
Suspots.com , so the team can learn from it and develop anti-cheating measurements
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zzeddd
Suspots.com , so the team can learn from it and develop anti-cheating measurements
There is no current list. The past list did not use suspots.com
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captainhindsight 01/19/2022 4:59 AM
How long before we see some positive action on this @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/19/2022 5:01 AM
we have another working group meeting in a month, but the hip mechanism is defined now, I think the updated hip proposal should go in soon, and then we can put it to a full vote
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we have another working group meeting in a month, but the hip mechanism is defined now, I think the updated hip proposal should go in soon, and then we can put it to a full vote
captainhindsight 01/19/2022 6:51 AM
A month seems a long time to allow funds to continue to be siphoned off by scammers who provide no value to the network
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captainhindsight
A month seems a long time to allow funds to continue to be siphoned off by scammers who provide no value to the network
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/19/2022 6:51 AM
The deny list will likely come back in the next firmware release, maybe the one after until hip40 is voted on
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10k 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The deny list will likely come back in the next firmware release, maybe the one after until hip40 is voted on
captainhindsight 01/19/2022 6:52 AM
That is welcome news
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/19/2022 6:53 AM
Helium originally said it would be out for a week or so when they removed it if it was voted on to return
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Helium originally said it would be out for a week or so when they removed it if it was voted on to return
captainhindsight 01/19/2022 6:53 AM
Thanks for the info
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Testa
There is no current list. The past list did not use suspots.com
It's a seperate thing. They can still learn by studying current (suspected) cheating miners
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zzeddd
It's a seperate thing. They can still learn by studying current (suspected) cheating miners
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/19/2022 1:32 PM
Yeah, I'd be surprised if they didn't use some of the data from suspots to help build the ML algorithm.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, I'd be surprised if they didn't use some of the data from suspots to help build the ML algorithm.
You can’t. Imagine I would put your HS there. And for ML you need to have learning data. That has to be accurate.
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Testa
You can’t. Imagine I would put your HS there. And for ML you need to have learning data. That has to be accurate.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 12:46 AM
I'm not saying they used all the data. Just the verified stuff.
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Hi guys, just watched some videos on youtube regarding "spoofing" and "gaming". Can somebody tell me what this exactly means and what's the difference?
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svica
Hi guys, just watched some videos on youtube regarding "spoofing" and "gaming". Can somebody tell me what this exactly means and what's the difference?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/20/2022 1:50 AM
Spoofing - asserting away from where you are by quite a way, gaming - often means stuffing beacons or altering data or replaying beacons to more than one hotspot (edited)
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wait "stuffing beacons or altering data or replaying beacons to more than one miner" could possible? isn't encryption on beacon?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/20/2022 2:16 AM
anyone can witness a beacon in the area
02:16
it'll wind you up on a list trying to game tho and then you'll earn nothing
02:16
the key thing to take away doing that is very noticeable
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Spoofing - asserting away from where you are by quite a way, gaming - often means stuffing beacons or altering data or replaying beacons to more than one hotspot (edited)
Thank you for clarifying.
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stovetop1614 01/20/2022 1:16 PM
suspect that this wallet is spoofing. I think all units are only witnessing each other. Not sure if someone can confirm Wallet: 14JMjPwxfPy65Fntssg5KivNGyVoqtJFpfnRxVaZ3euQEvBPUhT
13:19
same with any miner this hotspot is witnessing: 112bhB2jLnNDW1c5BRoxRjJjD2GSi7QkHg1XvsGeAD6jvtgNE8P2
13:20
and this unit: 11J4ATj51nzdrniGLyEzMpg2CbU7quuFYYVXdPJdZ9JewSiQDcF
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Spoofing - asserting away from where you are by quite a way, gaming - often means stuffing beacons or altering data or replaying beacons to more than one hotspot (edited)
So, spoofing is allowed and gaming is not? 🙂
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Pendraloth
So, spoofing is allowed and gaming is not? 🙂
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/20/2022 2:09 PM
No one's saying that, just it's not currently targeted beyond valid/invalid
14:49
though why they use the worst miners that dont have amplifiers of saw filters in them : cotex helyec pisces ? (edited)
14:49
there should be bounties for reporting scammers
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Parylizer
Maybe. The problem though with HIP 44 unless I am misunderstanding, is that they could still earn a lot without a proper setup that properly beacons etc. HIP 42 accomplishes a similar goal of putting a cap on earnings but it also enforces the primary goal of the network which is to provide valuable coverage. If you're not beaconing, then most likely (Not always) your setup isn't proper and not providing the type of coverage the network wants. So it kind of hits two birds with one stone, de-incentivizes the big cheating while incentivizing proper setups that benefit the network. (edited)
check this account who has 20 hotspots and beacons to witness himself, so how is hip 42 helping ?
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wazneh
there should be bounties for reporting scammers
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 3:02 PM
Where do you suggest that money come from? 🙂
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from the earnings of the gaming account, maybe redirect 1 day earnings to a newly created bounty report pool account (edited)
15:05
then ban the gaming account once confirmed (edited)
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wazneh
from the earnings of the gaming account, maybe redirect 1 day earnings to a newly created bounty report pool account (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 3:08 PM
Unfortunately we've been told that redirection of rewards is not possible. Only blocking.
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then deduct 1% from overall network mined hnt and distribute it as bounties for those who report scammers (edited)
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wazneh
then deduct 1% from overall network mined hnt and distribute it as bounties for those who report scammers (edited)
Deleted User 01/20/2022 3:10 PM
report or mappers?
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Deleted User
report or mappers?
bounty for reporting gamers of the system that connect their miners together in a basement somewhere (edited)
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Deleted User 01/20/2022 3:16 PM
they have to implement something sustainable. what's sustainable is detection based on algorithms/math and data like hip 42 which can be operated by AI so it can support a 1M or 2M hotspot network. the same way virus detection software works without human intervention
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hip 42 is punishing the very good locations yes something like it could help if it takes the many variables in place.
15:19
though what to do regarding hip40 until this ai detection is turned on ? how to incentivize people to report gamers
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wazneh
then deduct 1% from overall network mined hnt and distribute it as bounties for those who report scammers (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 3:20 PM
Sure, write a HIP and tell everyone to vote for lowering their rewards. 😉
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wazneh
hip 42 is punishing the very good locations yes something like it could help if it takes the many variables in place.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 3:21 PM
1. No it's not. 2. This is the HIP40 channel. Please stay on topic. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
1. No it's not. 2. This is the HIP40 channel. Please stay on topic. 🙂
so you just read the hip42 part that was a reply and forgot to continue the sentence and read the remaining part on hip 40 ?
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wazneh
so you just read the hip42 part that was a reply and forgot to continue the sentence and read the remaining part on hip 40 ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/20/2022 3:26 PM
"hip 42 is punishing the very good locations"
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Better empty their wallets and transform them in Dc
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szfangjing1999 01/21/2022 1:57 AM
I bought the second-hand hotspots was still on the blacklist. After the new firmware was updated, the hotspots still doesn’t have any beacon, some one can help me? @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 😣 coolcry
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/21/2022 1:58 AM
The blacklist isn't in place, it won't be related to it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The blacklist isn't in place, it won't be related to it
So in your dev-team, all you support for adding denylist again?
02:52
Can I understand it in that waypsyduck
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Ophelia
So in your dev-team, all you support for adding denylist again?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/21/2022 3:16 AM
Dev team? You know I dont work for helium right?
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when is the revised HIP 40 going to be published and put up for vote? Seems like the community is asking for it, and I certainly support it!
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pl
when is the revised HIP 40 going to be published and put up for vote? Seems like the community is asking for it, and I certainly support it!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/21/2022 6:38 AM
06:38
there are some more changes coming before the full update tho afaik
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Dev team? You know I dont work for helium right?
Sorry for that, but you are moderator, community developer, mentor , patron etc, so i thought you are participating in helium official teammuted muted muted
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It is estimated when the new Denylist scheme will be launched. Will the system automatically detect through ETL, or can we report and whether there are rewards for reporting
01:07
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
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can a hs on deny/blacklist be reversed? or better not for suppliers hotspots?
10:56
and each produced hs is good for x amount for helium inc
10:59
or one could say : No, don't waste materials. Circular is fine. Move hs to 'finale' legit location
11:03
or more chance expert members here as scrap yard?
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I think people are intrinsically motivated to hunt for gamers. Rewards would only add something, if the manual validators of this list have too little work. I think this will not be the case soon. They can start with the output of the ML algo that created the blacklist. And also get input from suspots
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Dalio
It is estimated when the new Denylist scheme will be launched. Will the system automatically detect through ETL, or can we report and whether there are rewards for reporting
Maybe he can't go into this issuepsyduck Why don't we ask CEO directly?
23:10
So who is CEO of helium, can't they don't have a just like decision maker or whatever.What our issue is we don't know whose words we should trust. Just like you had thought you got some idea from official member, but he told you he didn't work for helium😩 😩 😩 So embarrassed~
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Ophelia
So who is CEO of helium, can't they don't have a just like decision maker or whatever.What our issue is we don't know whose words we should trust. Just like you had thought you got some idea from official member, but he told you he didn't work for helium😩 😩 😩 So embarrassed~
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/23/2022 12:05 AM
Capcom is the CEO.
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derek
I think people are intrinsically motivated to hunt for gamers. Rewards would only add something, if the manual validators of this list have too little work. I think this will not be the case soon. They can start with the output of the ML algo that created the blacklist. And also get input from suspots
the problem with suspots is that anyone can report anything, like that noob complaining of two hotspots turned on in hex… (edited)
01:23
that why the list be better made by helium and not average Joe which doesn’t know how helium works
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112dEmxP9BPAH6UqXUUnH7SeB4d6YQY1R17xJYYUA5Nr82jQNtU2 112QunU2bMox9Ts16118pPKQWv4LQxgPCy5xNVmzNufsufQ8TzMb 2 spoofed hotsports here. I went and physically checked the location, not to mention them. I have been following them for several months, I see that no action has been taken against them
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r00t1ng
112dEmxP9BPAH6UqXUUnH7SeB4d6YQY1R17xJYYUA5Nr82jQNtU2 112QunU2bMox9Ts16118pPKQWv4LQxgPCy5xNVmzNufsufQ8TzMb 2 spoofed hotsports here. I went and physically checked the location, not to mention them. I have been following them for several months, I see that no action has been taken against them
Making 31 cents a day for the first one.. (edited)
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Sloth
Making 31 cents a day for the first one.. (edited)
Is New, from 2 days added here
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HIP40 : Appealing When action against a hotspot is decided on by the committee, the information should be made public and a notice period should be given publicly so hotspot owners can appeal. At this point hosts can submit evidence, and a committee will vote (super majority) to accept or deny this evidence.
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When at start notice period, the concerning HS goes offline(=IF) , THEN resolution period consideration. Where the owner(=gamer) e.g. make a transfer ownership + physical shipment with a party to recover hardware on new legit location.
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yea..like 50% of China will get legit location
06:36
when crypto is banned there
06:36
wont work
06:37
it just opens doors for cheating and if caught, sell it
06:38
look at pisces, half are cheating
06:39
dont tell me the vendor is not involved
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CN suspicious malafide hospots owners could exit game in soft way. 868mhz in CN basement could be transffered to EU.
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if caught 🙂
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you mean when caught , better blacklist hardware in perpetuity. Put the miner in the bin ? (edited)
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Many manufacturers have stated that they will no longer sell 470 devices
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because of uncertainty /ban CN crypto mining ?
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I think some manufacturers are reluctant to sell their equipment to cheating players
06:50
This is a good thing
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This means IOT lora by Helium : not very bright future ? or even no future
06:52
in CHINA ! ofc
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I think it takes a process to connect the gateway into a network. Once the wireless signal is continuously covered, the cheating players will be eliminated
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i try to get the picture. Is it correct, some cheaters (=from china) had the hand on 868mhz hotspots and spoofed by asserting them on random eg EU map. If caught, that hardware becomes obsolete?
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This cannot be avoided. This situation is not only for China. I think it is a way to promote network coverage. When there are enough hot spots actually deployed, these hot spots will eventually be out of the game. Coverage is the embodiment of hNT value.
07:12
I hope the price of HNT can rise.
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Can a cheater (originate from 470) in possession of 868 device(s), relocate these physically to EU ? or will this hip have a definitive result without mercy?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/23/2022 7:20 AM
This hip does not define what will and will not be on lists, that's up to the list makers to decide, and validators to decide if it should be used
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Does the P2P mechanism find nearby or good network hot spots to challenge?
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so once on the blacklist, very hard (or even impossible) to reverse the hotspot status, if validators decides to follow the list?
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odlaetet
so once on the blacklist, very hard (or even impossible) to reverse the hotspot status, if validators decides to follow the list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/23/2022 7:46 AM
The idea is the list producer will select a way for appeals to be processed
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thx
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https://www.suspots.com/ it is the blacklist ?
Suspots is a Helium hotspot reporting tool used to report suspected gamers.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/23/2022 8:35 AM
No
08:35
It's an unofficial website of people submitting hotspots they think are gaming
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's an unofficial website of people submitting hotspots they think are gaming
Ok, an ''official'' blacklist exist ?
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JM17
Ok, an ''official'' blacklist exist ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/23/2022 9:26 AM
Not right now, it was taken out
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Ok, how can we ban impossible witness ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/23/2022 9:36 AM
We can't right now
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i have a interesting question. Did they consider about transfer miner process? Because any obstacle would make liquidity of the miner(i mean this machine) slowing down. And people would think about i just put money and when would be break even. If too long, network growing would get slower. And the price... i can't image.
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Anyone have any good ideas for appeals? We do need to think of the legit people who may end up on list. As anything is possible! Would love to hear some ideas
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HitmakerAP
Anyone have any good ideas for appeals? We do need to think of the legit people who may end up on list. As anything is possible! Would love to hear some ideas
But the official said their algorithm is 100% accuracy
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's an unofficial website of people submitting hotspots they think are gaming
So this is the issue i have.. If the deny list are from requests of other users and there is no appeal. How many people will report hotspots that are doing good just to see them fall.
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my area got flooded over night with online spoofed hotspots, about 250 of them went online again. only about 50 are legit ones
22:32
when will the denylist come back active?
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viovio
my area got flooded over night with online spoofed hotspots, about 250 of them went online again. only about 50 are legit ones
How do you know only 50 of them are legit??
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Those 200 spoofed pisces miner came all straight overnight re asserted from china to a small city in germany
02:27
also with a fixed pattern in agrar areas
02:28
then those hotspots went after few weeks all at the same time again offline and now after the denylist got deactivated again, they all came back online again
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viovio
then those hotspots went after few weeks all at the same time again offline and now after the denylist got deactivated again, they all came back online again
those organizations behind the large scale spoofing wont care, they will milk the network until last second.
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YTLin
But the official said their algorithm is 100% accuracy
No one has said this
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
No. when they stay, hoping they feel good with avg. earnings.
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capcom
No one has said this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:07 PM
They're referring to multiple statements like this: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730246424666832947/930765216378138664
i won't explain how it works, other than to say it is 100% accurate
2 is 100% accurate, we just fucked up the implementation
there is something that the middleman software does that is 100% detectable and can't be incorrect
Search: from: hakeem#3987 in: diy-packet-forwarder 100%
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They're referring to multiple statements like this: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730246424666832947/930765216378138664
i won't explain how it works, other than to say it is 100% accurate
2 is 100% accurate, we just fucked up the implementation
there is something that the middleman software does that is 100% detectable and can't be incorrect
Search: from: hakeem#3987 in: diy-packet-forwarder 100%
I mean at least include the context and other side of this which highlights that no one has said some algorithm looking for gamers is 100% accurate. The use of para1 middleman has a signature within it that makes that part 100% accurate. Big difference https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730246424666832947/931150939556036648
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Radrob
I mean at least include the context and other side of this which highlights that no one has said some algorithm looking for gamers is 100% accurate. The use of para1 middleman has a signature within it that makes that part 100% accurate. Big difference https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730246424666832947/931150939556036648
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:17 PM
I did link it...
14:18
Also gave the search parameters so people could look for themselves.
14:20
All in all, just pointing out to Cap where people can easily get the "100% accuracy" impression.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They're referring to multiple statements like this: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730246424666832947/930765216378138664
i won't explain how it works, other than to say it is 100% accurate
2 is 100% accurate, we just fucked up the implementation
there is something that the middleman software does that is 100% detectable and can't be incorrect
Search: from: hakeem#3987 in: diy-packet-forwarder 100%
this applies only to middleman altered packets. they are 100% detectable. everything else, nowhere near 100%
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I did link it...
No you linked to an out of context message and then included 2 more out of context messages. The link I included has context around what part of the deny list was 100% which is not an algorithm but a pure signature
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capcom
this applies only to middleman altered packets. they are 100% detectable. everything else, nowhere near 100%
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:26 PM
I know that. You know that. 🙂 A lot of other people don't. Again, just pointing out where they would have gotten the wrong idea. 🙂
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Radrob
No you linked to an out of context message and then included 2 more out of context messages. The link I included has context around what part of the deny list was 100% which is not an algorithm but a pure signature
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 2:27 PM
The linked message also has the comment cap was replying to. And again, the search parameters so they could look at what i was seeing without me spamming a ton of links. 🙂
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https://github.com/helium/denylist I assumed the add to and remove from list would be all automatic and through algorithms so pretty much no human judgment, in my eyes a judge with no law is definitely not a good solution? Kinda intransparent and weird…
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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trannely
https://github.com/helium/denylist I assumed the add to and remove from list would be all automatic and through algorithms so pretty much no human judgment, in my eyes a judge with no law is definitely not a good solution? Kinda intransparent and weird…
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 11:40 PM
No. Anyone can make a list.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No. Anyone can make a list.
Removal is still through issues and someone has to decide about the opened issues?
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trannely
Removal is still through issues and someone has to decide about the opened issues?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 11:44 PM
Not sure what you mean by "issues".
23:44
Validators chose what lists they subscribe to
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At this time, you may open an issue to request removal of a Hotspot from this denylist. You must use the provided template and requests may be closed without explanation.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Validators chose what lists they subscribe to
This is what I mean, but maybe I‘m misunderstanding smth
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 11:46 PM
Ahhh... You're not talking about hip40
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ahhh... You're not talking about hip40
Nah I‘m talking about the denylist atm and I thought this channel is better than diy packet
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/24/2022 11:49 PM
Well back to your original question, that doc lays out how hotspots can be added manually rather than via algorithm (edited)
23:50
Those submissions would be reviewed to see if they were actually cheating
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those submissions would be reviewed to see if they were actually cheating
Yeah but atm there are not even rules what is allowed. Sometimes capcom or hashcode post stuff on the discord, eg dont use middleman. But if you’re not actively reading the discord you pretty much have no idea what’s happening. Also reviewing by human is always shit. There‘s always going to be human error. And this is pretty much what I mean with a judge with no law. Law enforcement is complex to minimize human error. Here it is just: yeah we‘re reviewing it and if we‘re in a good mood you get removed ( pretty sure it is not like this and there‘s a good intention behind the reviewing process but it feels like it…)
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trannely
Yeah but atm there are not even rules what is allowed. Sometimes capcom or hashcode post stuff on the discord, eg dont use middleman. But if you’re not actively reading the discord you pretty much have no idea what’s happening. Also reviewing by human is always shit. There‘s always going to be human error. And this is pretty much what I mean with a judge with no law. Law enforcement is complex to minimize human error. Here it is just: yeah we‘re reviewing it and if we‘re in a good mood you get removed ( pretty sure it is not like this and there‘s a good intention behind the reviewing process but it feels like it…)
Wrong example: dont alter the rxpk meta data
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Is deny list LIVE?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/25/2022 4:00 AM
Not as far as I'm aware
04:01
It's close to being ready with processes being setup (non hip40)
04:01
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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viovio
then those hotspots went after few weeks all at the same time again offline and now after the denylist got deactivated again, they all came back online again
The same happens near Lisbon, Portugal
06:21
There are beaches "full" of hotspots
06:23
Half, if not more, of the hotspots between Lisbon and Setúbal showed up overnight and rewards are falling for everybody else. TS falling from 0.29 to 0.09 and lower.
06:25
We need some sort of firm action. Apparently all hotspots were moved from a single wallet to 5 to 6 hs/wallet.
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06:26
This can't continue like this. We could map the whole area to verify the real hotspots, but would that make any difference?
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Sup3rT3sla
We need some sort of firm action. Apparently all hotspots were moved from a single wallet to 5 to 6 hs/wallet.
yes, the same happen here right now, they are splitting all by transfer ownerships to new single wallets. always 5-6 per wallet
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
What about mapping the area, confirming that these hotspots aren't where they were asserted? How can many hotspots show up in an already densely covered area and never witness beacons from the hotspots that were asserted months/years before without any reaction from Helium?
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Sup3rT3sla
What about mapping the area, confirming that these hotspots aren't where they were asserted? How can many hotspots show up in an already densely covered area and never witness beacons from the hotspots that were asserted months/years before without any reaction from Helium?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 3:35 PM
A mapper is not a trusted source of info unfortunately.
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I just submitted a wallet with 20 miners, they need to do it easier to report by wallet vs by hotspot
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Rizla6
I just submitted a wallet with 20 miners, they need to do it easier to report by wallet vs by hotspot
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/25/2022 4:51 PM
To suspots? Last I heard to can submit a few of them. They don't need them all. 🙂 (edited)
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They specifically say all hotspot..I pulled the list from the API..but other might not do the effort 😉
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Hi there are a lot of heltecs and Pisces miners in north Greece that are not really there and stealing our helium’s
14:21
Over 120pieces
14:22
0,6 - 0,8 hnt
14:23
For example
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Looks like those made it on the banlist (edited)
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Its a shame that they want to promote their project but they do nothing for spoofing... Investors (buyers of HS) spent their money to improve cover but they allow spoofers to exploit the system and earn rewards without POC ...
facepalm 1
15:03
There are plenty of cases around that I saw NL, FR, Portugal, Greece...HS appear in no time, in rural areas... They earn money from us that we indeed have the right location and we try to find solutions to expand and these guys earn money by putting miners in one room...
15:03
This is sad...
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kathisteri
Its a shame that they want to promote their project but they do nothing for spoofing... Investors (buyers of HS) spent their money to improve cover but they allow spoofers to exploit the system and earn rewards without POC ...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/26/2022 3:08 PM
You're talking in a room detailing plans to do something... And helium have, they're putting in a deny list until hip40 is voted/ready (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You're talking in a room detailing plans to do something... And helium have, they're putting in a deny list until hip40 is voted/ready (edited)
I think it is voted if I am not wrong...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/26/2022 3:11 PM
The helium run deny list is
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These are cases that clearly are a fraud... All these pisces and heltec in Greece they were offline 1 week ago and if I am bot mistaken they were in denylist a week ago...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/26/2022 3:11 PM
But hip40 to replace it hasn't been voted on yet
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How did they come online again?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/26/2022 3:12 PM
The list was removed when it was discovered and then the vote was held
15:12
It's almost ready to come back,
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The list was removed when it was discovered and then the vote was held
So they made a list and then they took it back? Thats what you say?
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kathisteri
So they made a list and then they took it back? Thats what you say?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/26/2022 3:14 PM
They secretly made a list, it was found and removed, voted on and will be returning soon
15:15
Untill hip40 is voted on and ready
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So there was only a vote for hip42( also another spoofing probelm)???
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They secretly made a list, it was found and removed, voted on and will be returning soon
So they made a list of spoofers, and they didnt take their earnings to randomly distribute them to the network, they just gave them a "warning" kind of...
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kathisteri
So there was only a vote for hip42( also another spoofing probelm)???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 4:41 PM
There was a temperature check vote for 42. That is different from 40 or the helium run denylist.
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kathisteri
So they made a list of spoofers, and they didnt take their earnings to randomly distribute them to the network, they just gave them a "warning" kind of...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 4:42 PM
They blocked them from earning, so yes, those rewards went to real hotspots, just not in the way you're thinking. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They blocked them from earning, so yes, those rewards went to real hotspots, just not in the way you're thinking. (edited)
I dont see them blocked...
16:43
They still operate
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kathisteri
I dont see them blocked...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 4:44 PM
As was said before, that list was shut off for a while to fix it.There was a bug in it.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As was said before, that list was shut off for a while to fix it.There was a bug in it.
Lets see...
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kathisteri
Lets see...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 4:46 PM
See what?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
See what?
See if it will work eventually...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 4:47 PM
Yeah, it will be back soon
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, it will be back soon
Why are u so sure of that denylist will be back soon? Is any official plan or just you think it should be ? No offense, just a little confused.
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Ophelia
Why are u so sure of that denylist will be back soon? Is any official plan or just you think it should be ? No offense, just a little confused.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 11:02 PM
Yes, that is the official plan, voted on by the community.
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is there anywhere to report gaming? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112t3TbwXXDgVNwAoXfyweeoK9PbciUWzUCyotsqCRJEq5MSUyUK pretty much all in fields.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 11:05 PM
Suspots.com
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes, that is the official plan, voted on by the community.
Oh get it , where can I read this original information?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/26/2022 11:09 PM
The voting website
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You mean hip 40?
23:12
I just know denylist has been removed and there is a website for community to report suspect-hotspots but never heard about that denylist will come back soonpsyduck psyduck
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Eggtastico
is there anywhere to report gaming? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112t3TbwXXDgVNwAoXfyweeoK9PbciUWzUCyotsqCRJEq5MSUyUK pretty much all in fields.
They are in the banlist
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02:01
check hotspotty with denylist filter (edited)
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Hotspotty is not fully up to date yet with the new filter
02:40
(and this hotspot is not in the new list)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/27/2022 2:52 AM
I just passed it onto them
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yeah, it's been slowly updating already
02:59
There are some interesting -less obvious- bans in the new list and some that hotspotty shows as not-included are included in the new list (edited)
03:02
Like: 11kaZbCiRiHXyLSP6f9CaYQiQaTw3VSSLdyX25SdBZQNSx5VKg9
03:04
Or: 112MwKedDSeoy3obSztpBkrwEppz4rEKwarMQP4Nzho2VCe8cdef Or: 112wAXJ5sCLmnhssamZC6mC9xQo91ZVMkgJnvnLNYN9YY7q52J3j (edited)
03:04
Based in RSSI/SNR it's not too obvious? So they must have been checking something else? (edited)
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These guys seeded 90+ Pisces miners all around the city in the past 24 hrs. This one was asserted in the middle of river 😆 https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11SkK5jbPjHq757kARm1LS7kAHN8yDTJ3Sza8geqUfRxzkfv4ar Last activity was in France 😆 Waiting to see what happens when they get online
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I just passed it onto them
It's already online that ban list?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/27/2022 6:50 AM
not yet
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any expected date?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/27/2022 8:26 AM
nothing confirmed yet, we'll get an announcement to confirm everything when its ready
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What is the mechanism for entering the blacklist? Isn't this to be made public?
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I just bought some second-hand hotspots. I'm worried that it will be in Denylist. What should I do
08:43
Shouldn't helium have a good processing mechanism? These things are always done suddenly. I don't know what will happen, why it will happen, and how to deal with it later. I think this is a very centralized operation mode
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It has been more than 2 weeks since deny list is disabled after voting! so we are allowing to earn again!
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If the code to find the spoofers is fairly solid, would it be possible to have a hotspot cleared from the list when the location is reasserted? It might reduce waste and time for appeals.
10:23
If the spoofers repackage and resell the units as if they were new to unsuspecting parties, that could be a nightmare.
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a banned hotspot should be forever banned
10:32
what’s the point of the ban if the cheaters can sell
10:33
i never trust those excuses, oh… bought few and they are banned
10:35
in extreme cases appeals to be possible. yes
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Dejavu
what’s the point of the ban if the cheaters can sell
Oh I don't know maybe to stop the cheating?
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Parylizer
Oh I don't know maybe to stop the cheating?
to make even more profit?
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I'm just worried that some of these spoofers are going to sell them as new anyways. It doesn't take much to open up a site, sell them all for crypto, and disappear once they're shipped. If it's banned forever you're only hurting the end user.
11:23
I don't think they'd bother trying to spoof anymore if it costs them $10 per unit to get them back up every time they get banned. They shouldn't be able to ROI on that before being re-listed.
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very hard thinking a reassertion of spoofy hotspot can be easy. Every new manufacutered hs is onboarding fee to helium inc (edited)
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I just had the thought and wanted to express my concern is all. I feel like the lesser of two evils is to just let them sell off the units and be done with them for good.
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they will never be done
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DigitalHuevos🥚 01/27/2022 5:27 PM
Don't buy used hotspots online. Problem solved. No need to worry about if it's on the list then. (edited)
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DigitalHuevos🥚
Don't buy used hotspots online. Problem solved. No need to worry about if it's on the list then. (edited)
With all due respect, it's not that simple. A large scale Chinese spoofing operation would definitely have the means and motivation to repackage and resell them on a legitimate looking site. Maybe even a straight up copy of a legitimate site. I doubt most of us that have been around a while would fall for it, but I bet there would be enough that do.
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Burner
With all due respect, it's not that simple. A large scale Chinese spoofing operation would definitely have the means and motivation to repackage and resell them on a legitimate looking site. Maybe even a straight up copy of a legitimate site. I doubt most of us that have been around a while would fall for it, but I bet there would be enough that do.
DigitalHuevos🥚 01/27/2022 6:50 PM
I would recommend only using your credit card for purchasing then. Common sense does come into play when buying anything online. I don't buy if I have no recourse. It's just not a wise decision. Same reason I won't buy from a site that takes crypto only. It's a risk. (edited)
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besides https://www.suspots.com/ is there anywhere else i can report spoofed hotspots? there's a bunch of picses/heltec miners popping up in my area but with china IP's. how can i get these hotspots to be reviewed for the denylist?
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
nice. i'll check it out. thanks man 👍
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zsed
There are 15 more asserted around city this morning and they all came form France:
Yup and some went online and oh what a surprise they witness only hotspots within their own group 😒
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spot checked some of the hotspots in that wallet and the IP's are coming from Hong Kong. i hope these guys get put on the denylist
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I saw the hotspotty denylist was changed
02:32
and lots of hotspots in my area disappeared
02:33
does that mean the new denylist is going live soon?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 5:34 AM
yep
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Does the new denylist already in effect?
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Dalio
Does the new denylist already in effect?
not yet
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Burner
I'm just worried that some of these spoofers are going to sell them as new anyways. It doesn't take much to open up a site, sell them all for crypto, and disappear once they're shipped. If it's banned forever you're only hurting the end user.
The transfer hotspot process will warn the buyer if the hotspot in question is on the banlist. We mentioned this in the announcements. I think HIP40 should work the same way once implemented
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capcom
The transfer hotspot process will warn the buyer if the hotspot in question is on the banlist. We mentioned this in the announcements. I think HIP40 should work the same way once implemented
What happens if a buyer just so happen to purchase?
08:04
Some can get conned into purchasing! What happens then?
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capcom
The transfer hotspot process will warn the buyer if the hotspot in question is on the banlist. We mentioned this in the announcements. I think HIP40 should work the same way once implemented
I know it's not necessarily Heliums responsibility to ensure people do their own research when buying hotspots but the banned ones will end up in the hands of innocent, albeit uneducated people or organizations. It could open up legal repercussions.
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capcom
The transfer hotspot process will warn the buyer if the hotspot in question is on the banlist. We mentioned this in the announcements. I think HIP40 should work the same way once implemented
Sometimes you buy a miner with a wallet password written on paper.
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Hopefully everyone is aware of the risks in doing that, regardless of any banlist
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The majority of people is not that smart ...
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That’s quite a statement
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capcom
Hopefully everyone is aware of the risks in doing that, regardless of any banlist
I agree, and overall agree with the HIP as written. I just am concerned about consequences of a flood of seemingly cheap miners being sold to people that see YouTube videos and ape in.
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It's going to happen for sure. I've said it before, a ban list appears like a good idea at first but I think it's a slippery slope. I'm surprised so many people blindly support it without more questions and concerns.
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im hoping no one is supporting it blindly. it has its issues, but so does the status quo
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capcom
im hoping no one is supporting it blindly. it has its issues, but so does the status quo
For sure. It's hard to say which is worse.
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IMO it's quite easy to say which is worse, but that's just my opinion
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And I understand that view. There are certainly bad actors that shouldn't be on the network.
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we should still work hard to improve any edge cases, and ultimately to improve poc such that a list like this is never needed. but doing nothing because we are worried about various bad potential outcomes is worse IMO
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This is why I suggested the reassert location transaction could trigger a removal from the list. Or at the very least a move to another list of probationary hotspots.
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the process should iterate and improve
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It also brings some capital back into the ecosystem
09:21
$10.55 per transaction
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i dont hate that idea at all. you could also make asserts become more expensive as well, if you're re-asserting for the 40th time something suspicious is probably happening
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09:22
i think someone else suggested that, on some kind of curve
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Exactly.
09:22
It also will reduce waste.
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capcom
i dont hate that idea at all. you could also make asserts become more expensive as well, if you're re-asserting for the 40th time something suspicious is probably happening
I like this idea as well. It gives someone the chance to get off the list without manual intervention and stop whatever they were doing. If they continue they will just end up back on the list and as you mentioned 40 reasserts in a short span is not only expensive but also solidifies they are cheating and not going to change and probably deserve the ban.
09:31
That would also hopefully solve the issue of users unknowingly buying a banned hotspot
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freeze the gamer and increase the charge by level
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
yes, it would be relatively easy to figure out
10:03
sounds like a good HIP for someone 🙂
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capcom
Hopefully everyone is aware of the risks in doing that, regardless of any banlist
hi what if the new buyer place it in the right way will the ban be removed ? or is the ban permanent ?
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io i dont think cap is available could you answer for him ? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 10:42 AM
I believe they have mentioned some decay to bans, looking at the new list there's a number of hotspots missing, I'm assuming because they've been offline a while and decayed off, but that's just my observation
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my friend bought banned hotspots but he placed them right in legit ways but he is telling me they are still banned
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 10:45 AM
Is he on the new list?
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where is the new list ?
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Petzl
The majority of people is not that smart ...
its knowledge, don't think it has anything to do with smartness. sometimes people also trust other people. that sometimes happens 😉
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Anyone the numbers approx. on that denylist?
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Is the new list added or updated?+
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 12:43 PM
its not live yet
12:43
but its here:
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This list is much less than before.
12:45
I remember the previous list was 60k.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 12:59 PM
38k ish (the old list) (edited)
13:00
17,000 have been removed from the current list, that were previously on the old list that got removed
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all my hotspots are removed
13:02
😄
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
38k ish (the old list) (edited)
Where should I report suspicious hotspots? Have about 100 pisces spots that popped up within last day, witnessing only same group of hotspots that are within same three-four wallets all with Hong Kong IP's
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Wolverine
Where should I report suspicious hotspots? Have about 100 pisces spots that popped up within last day, witnessing only same group of hotspots that are within same three-four wallets all with Hong Kong IP's
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 1:08 PM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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13:09
but i fear with issues like this
13:09
Hotspot Name Long Scarlet Buffalo Hotspot b58 Address 112Rn1KgPuvwArVpfnS1uFqewVX2iNfJRNTn3a8tvRH9pm3LmGqL Discord Handle ken340#1015 Hotspot Manufacturer Nebra Removal Reason I bought my Nebra 18 ...
13:09
it wont be long before its unusable 😦
13:10
they are in the new deny list tho
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What does actually happen to denied spots? I mean, I checked some that are on the list currently and they operate normally 😄
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 1:16 PM
the list isnt live right now
13:16
but basically when they submit witnesses receipt the challenger drops it if the hotspot is on the list
13:17
there are some caveats, the manufacturer has to choose to use the list, most will so sometimes you'll see some make it through still
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Thank you for info 👍
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there are some caveats, the manufacturer has to choose to use the list, most will so sometimes you'll see some make it through still
Why does the manufacture have to choose to use list all of a sudden? Has something changed?
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HitmakerAP
Why does the manufacture have to choose to use list all of a sudden? Has something changed?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 1:58 PM
yeah its enabled by the manufacturers on their fleets now afaik
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yeah its enabled by the manufacturers on their fleets now afaik
Yea I’m saying why? I thought validators were the ones who had to use list!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 1:59 PM
thats hip40
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13:59
we were talking helium inc deny (thats going live in the next release)
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guess Pisces won’t implement it 👀 (edited)
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Dejavu
guess Pisces won’t implement it 👀 (edited)
Are you saying they are fishy? (edited)
😂 3
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Hello! Just found my hotspot is blacklisted
15:07
How come?
15:07
And what reason ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:07 PM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Is hotspotty denylist accurate now?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:10 PM
It's been updated yeah
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QQQ
Is hotspotty denylist accurate now?
#deleted-channel can tell you
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:11 PM
We just updated the approved denylist that was released last night! It contains over 35,000 hotspots, down from 42,000, that have been removed from the @helium network due to gaming! Check out New York for example that has 365 hotspots on the list.
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io But i bought my only one hotspot 2 weeks ago, added antenna on roof, never did something bad or cheating and i got banned ??? How come this?
15:13
What criteria?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:13 PM
Did you buy it second hand?
15:13
It was brand new
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:13 PM
Then your likely gaming by the sounds of it, you can appeal on the link above
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ToHuK
It was brand new
what brand?
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@Dejavu Sensecap M1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:14 PM
Have you altered it in any way?
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now that’s weird
15:14
to get a sensecap new and banned
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io "hen your likely gaming by the sounds of it" - what you mean ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:15 PM
Have you altered the hotspot in any way?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:15 PM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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it was with stock antenna, i added new external
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did you buy it from reseller?
15:15
or ebay
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I think so, i bought from guy, who ordered 10 i think
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ToHuK
I think so, i bought from guy, who ordered 10 i think
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:16 PM
Right and he transferred you it?
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ToHuK
I think so, i bought from guy, who ordered 10 i think
yea… you are screwed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:16 PM
He was likely gaming with them
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Pffffffffffffffffffffff
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:17 PM
You can request removal tho :)
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io yes, it is on this list
15:17
I just try to figure how/why i'm there ?\
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:17 PM
The guy who sold you it probably was gaming with them?
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i am sorry for situations like this but hotspots should stay banned
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since i see people lie about location, and i did everything correct
15:18
well... how i could know
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make an appeal, but if you used paypal, request refund
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ToHuK
well... how i could know
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:19 PM
You couldn't, that's why you need to apeal it :)
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no, i bought it here in Bulgaria from guy, who told me he ordered from company. It was brand new, i unboxed it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:20 PM
Did he transfer you ownership?
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the appeal system will be abused pretty soon
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https://www.facebook.com/ntranch - i live here ...i my ranch. i can send location and hotspot address you to see ... and ... this is just insane what haepens to me 😦
HT Ranch, Polyantsi, Sofiya, Bulgaria. 962 likes · 97 talking about this · 142 were here. We are young people who recently like more rural life than big city office rush and life. We work and manage...
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ToHuK
https://www.facebook.com/ntranch - i live here ...i my ranch. i can send location and hotspot address you to see ... and ... this is just insane what haepens to me 😦
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:21 PM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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i just try to addappeal
15:24
what reason to give and to complain, since i dont understand/know why i am in this list ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:25 PM
Submit evidence against gaming, explain the situation
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because someone sold you banned hotspots
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@Dejavu i doubt it, it was not banned week ago .. i think so ?
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ToHuK
i just try to addappeal
Whats the hotspot name and we can help investigate
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ToHuK
@Dejavu i doubt it, it was not banned week ago .. i think so ?
check original ban list
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@waveform Immense Tangerine Albatross is the name of hotspot
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ToHuK
@waveform Immense Tangerine Albatross is the name of hotspot
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:39 PM
When you bought this hotspot
15:39
Did the owner transfer it to your wallet?
15:39
Or did you onboard it fresh like a new hotspot is normally onboarded?
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no, it was brand new and i unboxed it, made wallet in app and added it myself ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:40 PM
Ok then your going to need to appeal
15:40
Something is making it look wrong or there is a fault with the detection method they're using for the deny list, hard to say exactly from here
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ToHuK
no, it was brand new and i unboxed it, made wallet in app and added it myself ?
Where did you see that it is blacklisted?
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there are are a few folks like this: - https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/35 - https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/30 tell others to submit issues like that
15:42
we'll eval it.
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waveform
Where did you see that it is blacklisted?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/28/2022 3:43 PM
It's on the new list
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hashc0de
we'll eval it.
just take it with a grain of salt… people will abuse it in no time
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Dejavu
just take it with a grain of salt… people will abuse it in no time
of course. under no obligation to act on it.
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well, i send appeal
15:55
hope they do something soon 😦
15:55
its really insane and unfair
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ToHuK
its really insane and unfair
you know that the new algorithm is pretty hard to fail … good luck anyway
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hashc0de
there are are a few folks like this: - https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/35 - https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/30 tell others to submit issues like that
I am very curious on this decision.. a friend of mine done it but not me :))
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well, honest to say i'm not that much into algorithm, was IT before, trying to stay away from this... just bought device and wanted to see what is it... what you mean " the new algorithm is pretty hard to fail "?
16:01
May be i will be helium network user soon, since i'm looking for tracker solutions for my cows ...
16:02
so wanted to see and have my own hotspot near pasture ...
16:02
i dont plan to have 10000 devices ... just this one.. and i got banned ... what the ....
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I am not even sure an algorithm is already used for the new list. I think/thought it was just the old list with a lot of hotspots removed from that list to start with.
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ToHuK
i dont plan to have 10000 devices ... just this one.. and i got banned ... what the ....
maybe if you plan for 10000 devices on your cows, then you can get a new one for free?
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@odlaetet Please dont make joke with the situation.. its really insane and unfair. I just bought device, installed it and got banned. What for? I dont cheat, location is correct, everything installed as FAQ of maker describe.. what i eid wrong and how i deserved this???
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i dont joke....i make simply clear. the future is probably 0 revenue from poc. data-drive from hs is coming.....or not coming?
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ToHuK
@odlaetet Please dont make joke with the situation.. its really insane and unfair. I just bought device, installed it and got banned. What for? I dont cheat, location is correct, everything installed as FAQ of maker describe.. what i eid wrong and how i deserved this???
For now, it will not impact you since no hotspot maker has implemented the new miner image yet.
17:06
And you did good to add your case to the github. I am sure they will look at it.
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more......why not in the sales agreement : the seller makes the new location assertion before expedition and that for a unboxed or boxed hotspot. On arrival buyer just fine-tune gain/height.
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so , on a p2p market a transfer of ownership is must. or maybe an escrow service is born
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Well, anyone know when appeals are read from responsible people? And i'm just thinking how people in situation like me getting into that ban list? Someone could report correct people just to take advantage? Do those reports get checked if they say truth? When i wrote my appeal i saw people reporting 'suspicious' hotspots ... Does this mean if i want i can report someone's hotspot just to take his place in hexagon? I'm just wondering how this works, noone give reason or explain how you get in this list and why ?
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molano
For now, it will not impact you since no hotspot maker has implemented the new miner image yet.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 12:59 AM
Just an FYI, the denylist is now active on rak/OG
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Just an FYI, the denylist is now active on rak/OG
sensecap did a firmware update just within the last 2 hours. does that mean any sensecaps that were on the denylist are now blocked?
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604WW
sensecap did a firmware update just within the last 2 hours. does that mean any sensecaps that were on the denylist are now blocked?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 1:36 AM
If sensecap implemented the deny list , it's something manufacturers have to enable now
01:36
But that's not what it blocks or how
01:36
The challenger drops the witness receipt
01:37
So depends what make the challenger is right now
01:37
Rak/og have enabled it, I can't say for any others
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If sensecap implemented the deny list , it's something manufacturers have to enable now
SenseCAP M1 OTA Update January 29, 2022 - We released SenseCAP M1 firmware version 2022.01.27.0, which includes denylist support, adds snapshot polling, and better storage reclamation. Changes: 1. Update helium miner to 2022.01.27.0 i assume from this they enabled the denylist...?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Rak/og have enabled it, I can't say for any others
slowly but surely i guess. we need Picses and Heltec to enable since it seems majority of the spoofers are on those two brands
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604WW
SenseCAP M1 OTA Update January 29, 2022 - We released SenseCAP M1 firmware version 2022.01.27.0, which includes denylist support, adds snapshot polling, and better storage reclamation. Changes: 1. Update helium miner to 2022.01.27.0 i assume from this they enabled the denylist...?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 1:38 AM
Yeah looks like it
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604WW
slowly but surely i guess. we need Picses and Heltec to enable since it seems majority of the spoofers are on those two brands
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 1:39 AM
Your missing how it works
01:39
The challenger drops the witness, so we don't need all to implement it , if the challenger happens to be a rak, and a piscies is on the block list, it'll drop the witness
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The challenger drops the witness, so we don't need all to implement it , if the challenger happens to be a rak, and a piscies is on the block list, it'll drop the witness
ah.. ok got it. i thought the miner brands had to enable
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 1:44 AM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
01:44
Open a new issue, submit as much evidence as you can, the more you can support it the better
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The challenger drops the witness, so we don't need all to implement it , if the challenger happens to be a rak, and a piscies is on the block list, it'll drop the witness
so since RAK/Sensecaps have already completed the firmware upgrade, once Bobcat and their 158k online hotspots completes the upgrade to enable, then that's a good majority of the hotspots, thus we should start to see a difference?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 1:50 AM
Yep
01:51
Last check I did , those on the old deny list, after the list was removed were back to earning around 8.4% of daily rewards (edited)
01:51
So that'll start to decrease
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01:52
There's also some new targets on the new list, and then there's some offline ones that seem to have been removed (some clusters in the UK wernt on it for example)
01:52
They've been offline for a while tho, assuming that's why they havnt been picked up
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They've been offline for a while tho, assuming that's why they havnt been picked up
makes sense now. thanks for the clarification. i thought it was the hotspot manufacturer (heltec/Pisces) that needed to enable to get the heltec/pisces hotspots denied.
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How can i know if my hotspot is affected?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 2:39 AM
Hotspotty.net has a filter
02:39
Or lookup your hotspot manually here
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ToHuK
Well, anyone know when appeals are read from responsible people? And i'm just thinking how people in situation like me getting into that ban list? Someone could report correct people just to take advantage? Do those reports get checked if they say truth? When i wrote my appeal i saw people reporting 'suspicious' hotspots ... Does this mean if i want i can report someone's hotspot just to take his place in hexagon? I'm just wondering how this works, noone give reason or explain how you get in this list and why ?
Just reporting a hotspot/account doesnt put them on the deny list, there is some analysis and approval going on. This analysis will need to be constantly analysed itself
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@waveform I dont know what analysis and who made them, but i am just regular user, who bought just one hotspot, which was brand new, unboxed. I made wallet 2 weeks ago, added my hotspot and put antenna. I even dont earn much, really dont know what analyse found me guilty and what for.
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ToHuK
@waveform I dont know what analysis and who made them, but i am just regular user, who bought just one hotspot, which was brand new, unboxed. I made wallet 2 weeks ago, added my hotspot and put antenna. I even dont earn much, really dont know what analyse found me guilty and what for.
We know, which is why you need to be looked at by Helium to work out why you are on the list
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yes, i understand
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Immense Tangerine Albatross
04:07
helium can tell the issue. Image from perspective of regular viewer looking 'normal'. The wallet is getting 'normal' rewards. If you bought from a friend....your friend acquired batch of hotspots from a friend....??????
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Plenty of 'noraml' hospot activity. Assertion 2 days ago.
04:17
I'm a noob. but looking for attention or farm instagram likes or something
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Anyway this channel is for discussing the validator denylist. These have been flagged up by the Helium denylist which is in place till this HIP is approved and actioned
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@odlaetet My friend ordered from normal store, he have also document. When he was about to order, i asked him to order one for me. thats it
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i submitted an issue with evidences on the github, when does helium team start dealing these issues?
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LOSTGE
i submitted an issue with evidences on the github, when does helium team start dealing these issues?
You're in China?
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I did not know that Bobcat was available and was shipping to China?
05:42
I also see that you have not asserted antenna specs?
05:42
Not that it matters for the blocking, but it's not a best practice anyway
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so if i change the antenna dbi correct, does my hotspot can remove from the list?
👎 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 5:43 AM
Not automatically
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so what should i do now?
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Wait for Helium to assess your submission.
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molano
Wait for Helium to assess your submission.
how long does it take?
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Your witnessing is very weird actually. Very irregular. But even that is no proof for cheating.
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LOSTGE
how long does it take?
No idea... One week max? I do not know how many times the list will be changed.
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molano
No idea... One week max? I do not know how many times the list will be changed.
yup i also curious about this hotspot can witness some others which 20km far away sometimes
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molano
Your witnessing is very weird actually. Very irregular. But even that is no proof for cheating.
what make you think the witness is weird? the snr?
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No, more like number of witnesses per day over the last 90 days is very far from consistent. up and down and up and down. But again, nothing explicitely wrong with that either. https://etl.dewi.org/dashboard/15-challenge-receipt-analysis-dashboard?hotspot_name=cool-mustard-dachshund&days=90
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+120.83 dBm 01/29/2022 6:03 AM
From announcements: "This release includes denylist support" ... "The addition of denylist support allows asynchronous updates to this list independent of miner releases." How can I view the denylist?
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+120.83 dBm 01/29/2022 6:04 AM
Is that the current list? Will the link remain current?
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+120.83 dBm
Is that the current list? Will the link remain current?
Start from here https://github.com/helium/denylist and select denylist.csv
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molano
Start from here https://github.com/helium/denylist and select denylist.csv
+120.83 dBm 01/29/2022 6:07 AM
Thanks.
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LOSTGE
what make you think the witness is weird? the snr?
So, coming back to your Bobcat. i did some investigations. Bobcat does not ship hotspots with frequency in China as seen on https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/docs/lorawan/frequency-plans/
Bobcat Frequencies Bobcat currently support US915, EU868, AU915, AS923, and KR920. You should select your frequencies as follows: US915 - North America EU868 - Europe & UAE AU915 - Australia, Brazil, Peru, and New Zealand AS923 - Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, and Vietnam KR920 - Korea
So for me, all Bobcats not in any of the regions above should be blocked.
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molano
So, coming back to your Bobcat. i did some investigations. Bobcat does not ship hotspots with frequency in China as seen on https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/docs/lorawan/frequency-plans/
Bobcat Frequencies Bobcat currently support US915, EU868, AU915, AS923, and KR920. You should select your frequencies as follows: US915 - North America EU868 - Europe & UAE AU915 - Australia, Brazil, Peru, and New Zealand AS923 - Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, and Vietnam KR920 - Korea
So for me, all Bobcats not in any of the regions above should be blocked.
so u mean all bobcats in China should be blocked?
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yes. My personal opinion
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but they did sell bobcats to us
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Well, IMHO they do not provide any real coverage since they do not work on the good frequency. I can buy whatever I want on Amazon also, if the power outlet is not what I use in my country, I can't use it. Sort of the same.
06:26
DYOR before bying something.
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bobcat just stopped produce cn470 doesnt mean we cannot use them
06:31
so u mean 470 is not good frequency for providing real coverage?
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LOSTGE
bobcat just stopped produce cn470 doesnt mean we cannot use them
According to the above, Bobcat does not have any CN470... Do you now tell me that they sold that in the pasT?
06:31
And that your hotspot is on CN470?
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yes it is CN470, if its not and not approved by helium, how can i join the network and mine hnt?
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I was just going on info from the Bobcat website. I checked some more and indeed, your hotspot is on CN470.
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molano
I was just going on info from the Bobcat website. I checked some more and indeed, your hotspot is on CN470.
Pre-order US915, EU868 and CN470 @helium $HNT miners TODAY at https://t.co/Yz2B6qIS8b - Order is first come first served - Estimated drop shipping begins 8 weeks from ordering - Shipping fee for 10 or more units is the same - More information available at https://t.co/Yz2B6qIS8b
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waveform
We know, which is why you need to be looked at by Helium to work out why you are on the list
do I understand correctly the new list contains obvious errors too?
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Testa
do I understand correctly the new list contains obvious errors too?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 8:09 AM
Not clear at this point
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Submit evidence against gaming, explain the situation
I think that is the wrong way round.. the makers of the list first need to review. If there are really cases on the list that are obviously wrong. In dubio pro reo.
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Testa
I think that is the wrong way round.. the makers of the list first need to review. If there are really cases on the list that are obviously wrong. In dubio pro reo.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 8:12 AM
That's what happened
08:12
The list was signed into existence so it's been reviewed
08:12
But to say everything's 100% right isn't possible
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szfangjing1999 01/29/2022 8:12 AM
I bought a second-hand hotspot last month. At that time, the hotspot existed in the blacklist (Before hip40) At present, there is still in the updated list. Once hotspots are on the blacklist, will they always be on the blacklist? I am an innocent person..coolcry @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io What should I do? HELP!
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szfangjing1999
I bought a second-hand hotspot last month. At that time, the hotspot existed in the blacklist (Before hip40) At present, there is still in the updated list. Once hotspots are on the blacklist, will they always be on the blacklist? I am an innocent person..coolcry @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io What should I do? HELP!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 8:13 AM
You can submit a request with evidence https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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LOSTGE
so u mean all bobcats in China should be blocked?
I'm on the same opinion that all China miners should be blocked due to government mandate on banning mining.
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Rav
I'm on the same opinion that all China miners should be blocked due to government mandate on banning mining.
szfangjing1999 01/29/2022 8:22 AM
You don't know much about China's policy, Banning the mining of obsolete categories such as BTC or increase the electricity charge Helium - This is the people's network, which is low-power network...
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When it banned crypto last year, China did so in different phases. First the country prohibited financial institutions from engaging in any crypto transactions in May. Then it banned all domestic crypto mining in June, and finally outlawed cryptocurrencies outright in September.
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szfangjing1999
You don't know much about China's policy, Banning the mining of obsolete categories such as BTC or increase the electricity charge Helium - This is the people's network, which is low-power network...
I know it's low power but still crypto mining.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That's what happened
maybe HIP40 could include requirements for reviewing removal requests? E.g. an SLA and they would need to provide evidence why the HS was added to the list? (edited)
👍 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/29/2022 9:08 AM
hip40 is just going to outline the method for use of a deny lists for validators
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How nice.... just found out.... those guys who maintain this ban list put my whole town+villages arround in this ban list ....
11:40
I didnt checked other Hs, just mine yesterday ... now 5 hours noone get nothing even 1 signal
11:41
and started to check other devices... ALL of them are in list ...
11:41
helim want people to make network ... they buy devices... and make network to cover ... and helium ban them 🙂
11:42
strange is... they ban small town and villages arround .. where people have 1-2 device ... and leave free hexes with 20+ devices :)))
11:42
its really nice ...
11:43
someone did mistake i think
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
hip40 is just going to outline the method for use of a deny lists for validators
That may be very damaging though. If there are mistakes and there is no way to correct mistakes the community may lose trust in helium
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@Testa Exactly ....
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I believe your whole village/city cheated, and you bought it from the main cheater (edited)
14:01
my city was plagued by a guy with 40 hotspots in the same room, even knew the building where he keept them... we had a long post on the facebook group and the guy just moved them in top of a mountain...at least we know more or less whats real hotspot in my city now
14:01
your situation is worse, he got caught and sold them to naive people
14:01
so dont blame helium
14:02
that's why voted hip40
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@Dejavu pfff.....
14:08
first of all, here is small town. second we know each other
14:09
and we bought/started with different hotspot vendors, different time
14:09
its easy to check this
14:09
this is bad theory ...
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ask the guy which sold it them how he got banned (edited)
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i told you
14:09
i started 14 days ago
14:09
bought sensecap
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i know the story
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other have bobcat and started months ago
14:10
...
14:10
what are you talking about ...
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you bought it second hand
14:10
my friend ordered from store... one of them was for me
14:10
...
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but he transferred it to you
14:11
you didnt asserted as first time
14:11
so is not new
14:11
new means when yu asert factory made hotspot that has the fees free
14:12
not when someone transfers hotspot to you
14:12
i am Romanian, the stories with friends, aunts etc do not impress me
14:13
i seen to many cons living in Balcans
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pfff....... he didnt transffered to me ..... I added it to wallet
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exactly
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helium network admins can see this for sure ..
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i hope they unban you, but man..is fishy
14:14
obviously your area did cheat heavely
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cheat ?????
14:14
hows that
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is hard to explain, many ways, i am not that smart
14:16
that's why heliums alghoritm bans certain hotspots
14:16
cheat patterns are identifiable
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i dont know helium algoritm... but i know i didnt do nothing bad to be in this list ...
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is fine, helium will look into your request
14:18
is not only a person looking on that
14:19
few are, so they will tell you exactly if or what happened
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i hope they do
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btw. I remember when counter was approx. 15000 hotspots. In EU continent the place where many hs popped up was bulgaria. In early days i think there was even a hs warehouse. So from start in EU very dense talk helium in this part. A guy from 50km out of hype centre, now telling he has been fucked together with his friends when buying batch. They haved been under a stone all this time.
15:16
was it for nebra? Was the early discord guy for nebra not from bulgaria ???
15:17
something has even happened , that guy has been kicked out of nebra i think. fishy stuff probably
15:19
who knows : maybe origine foundation gaming practice there
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@odlaetet What are you talking about??? You can't be serious... Are you telling me all people in Bulgaria are cheaters? This is ridiculous. I don't know nothing about Nebra guy or something. This way of talking and thinking is not serious for world wide network like Helium. I cheat and trick with my only one hotspot, which i bought with my last money?? I gave pictures, location, all the info in my appeal. So, please dont tell me i am cheater or so. Mey be there are cheater.. i dont know. But there are everywhere, and i dont have nothing to do with this shit.
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How come distance is +55km but RSSI (~100) and SNR(~+5) just like 5km away, these guys have a lot of witnesses with these very high RSSI they should be cheating! https://www.heliumtracker.io/beacons/63090436 (edited)
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604WW
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues report them here. the more Helium knows the better
Those 100 hotspots are already reported (https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/34, https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/26). I wanted to point out the behavioural pattern that I have noticed. Hope to see them disappear because they don't contribute to people's network.
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 4:02 AM
Hi team, I’ve noticed That i am added to blacklist 😭 i don’t know why…my position, height and antenna Written are right…can someone help me…i am going mad 🤦‍♂️ And absolutely no gaming I noticed that into HeliumGeek (edited)
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LaRisposta4
Hi team, I’ve noticed That i am added to blacklist 😭 i don’t know why…my position, height and antenna Written are right…can someone help me…i am going mad 🤦‍♂️ And absolutely no gaming I noticed that into HeliumGeek (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 01/30/2022 4:04 AM
You can create a Issue for removal from the list: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues (edited)
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You can create a Issue for removal from the list: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues (edited)
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 4:04 AM
Thank you so much i will do asap
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LaRisposta4
Thank you so much i will do asap
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 01/30/2022 4:05 AM
Make sure to use the provided template (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Make sure to use the provided template (edited)
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 4:07 AM
And how takes to be removed from The blacklist?
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LaRisposta4
And how takes to be removed from The blacklist?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 01/30/2022 4:08 AM
I'm not sure, since i don't work on it
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I'm not sure, since i don't work on it
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 4:12 AM
btw thanks for the quick support, I appreciate it
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LaRisposta4
btw thanks for the quick support, I appreciate it
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 01/30/2022 4:12 AM
No problem, good luck with your removal 🤙
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LaRisposta4
Hi team, I’ve noticed That i am added to blacklist 😭 i don’t know why…my position, height and antenna Written are right…can someone help me…i am going mad 🤦‍♂️ And absolutely no gaming I noticed that into HeliumGeek (edited)
TheMangoMiner 01/30/2022 4:30 AM
How did you discover this?
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TheMangoMiner
How did you discover this?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 01/30/2022 4:33 AM
You can either checkout the list or look it up in hotspotty (edited)
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TheMangoMiner
How did you discover this?
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 4:35 AM
i checked HeliumGeek and Hotspotty...i've just opened an issue as suggested by the kind @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 and hope they will fix asap
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LaRisposta4
i checked HeliumGeek and Hotspotty...i've just opened an issue as suggested by the kind @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 and hope they will fix asap
TheMangoMiner 01/30/2022 4:43 AM
can you search by name?
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TheMangoMiner
can you search by name?
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 4:48 AM
no, you can search only by the address of your HS but it is simply to find it
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LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 4:56 AM
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 can you kindly suggest me one member who are looking for this service? I've checked that there are more than 50 issues opened and no one closed by an admin...thanks again (edited)
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i really doubt anything submitted to the denylist whether addition or removal will be handled promptly. they need to do their checks on a case by case basis. I think you'll just have to wait and hope.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/30/2022 5:05 AM
Good question.. Who is the poor soul stuck reviewing all these requests for adds and removes?
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604WW
i really doubt anything submitted to the denylist whether addition or removal will be handled promptly. they need to do their checks on a case by case basis. I think you'll just have to wait and hope.
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:08 AM
Yes but if you aren’t guilty is really frustrating…😭
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Good question.. Who is the poor soul stuck reviewing all these requests for adds and removes?
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:09 AM
Just to know that there are someone Who will look this requests…on github there Are several issues but no one is answered by an admin
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LaRisposta4
Just to know that there are someone Who will look this requests…on github there Are several issues but no one is answered by an admin
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/30/2022 5:11 AM
Might take some time for them to get to your ticket (edited)
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LaRisposta4
Just to know that there are someone Who will look this requests…on github there Are several issues but no one is answered by an admin
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 01/30/2022 5:14 AM
these things aren't instant lol (edited)
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05:14
its only just gone live too
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05:14
add on the fact its a weekend too
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
add on the fact its a weekend too
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:16 AM
Yes I understand and sorry for my multiple messages…i was really disappointed when i noticed that i am blacklisted 😭
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did you buy your miner brand new from the maker or third party?
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604WW
did you buy your miner brand new from the maker or third party?
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:17 AM
Third party but it works for three months after i bought it
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was there any POC/Witness/Beacon activity on the miner before you bought it from the 3rd party?
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604WW
was there any POC/Witness/Beacon activity on the miner before you bought it from the 3rd party?
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:18 AM
Yes sure, The miner worked normal
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LaRisposta4
Third party but it works for three months after i bought it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/30/2022 5:19 AM
Well yeah. There was no denylist back then
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i wonder if whoever you bought it from was doing some shady stuff then got rid of it to you, but whatever it was they were doing got picked up on the denylist
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well yeah. There was no denylist back then
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:20 AM
The things that make me mad is that i don’t understand WHY were added
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what i said above is a possibility
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604WW
i wonder if whoever you bought it from was doing some shady stuff then got rid of it to you, but whatever it was they were doing got picked up on the denylist
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:21 AM
It is a friend…so i honestly don’t think so…
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where did he get it from? direct from the maker?
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LaRisposta4
The things that make me mad is that i don’t understand WHY were added
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 01/30/2022 5:22 AM
Because the hotspot was cheating at some point
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@LaRisposta4 did your friend have lots of hotspots?
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604WW
where did he get it from? direct from the maker?
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:25 AM
Yes from The maker
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then i dunno.. but more inclined to agree with @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because the hotspot was cheating at some point
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:27 AM
So strange…i can’t verify that but i can confirm that all i am doing is right…so I hope they Fix it 🤞 btw Thanks for supporting me during this bad news…make me fell less alone 🤗 (edited)
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Traketal
@LaRisposta4 did your friend have lots of hotspots?
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:27 AM
No
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LaRisposta4
So strange…i can’t verify that but i can confirm that all i am doing is right…so I hope they Fix it 🤞 btw Thanks for supporting me during this bad news…make me fell less alone 🤗 (edited)
sucks if it was truly a false positive but i think you'll just have to wait until helium acts on the list. My guess is they're letting the denylist list grow and analyzing the posts one by one. but i also dunno if they'll comment on each one
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604WW
sucks if it was truly a false positive but i think you'll just have to wait until helium acts on the list. My guess is they're letting the denylist list grow and analyzing the posts one by one. but i also dunno if they'll comment on each one
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 5:30 AM
Thanks for your feedback…i hope only they Fix me or tell me what I have to do… 😅
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LaRisposta4
Thanks for your feedback…i hope only they Fix me or tell me what I have to do… 😅
wouldn't get your hopes up on that. i'm guessing one day in the future maybe weeks or months from now you'll start to see activity out of no where
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How can i check if im not on denylist?
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MrMine
How can i check if im not on denylist?
you can use hotspotty. there's a filter for denylist. if your miner is on the denylist it will show up
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604WW
you can use hotspotty. there's a filter for denylist. if your miner is on the denylist it will show up
i cant see that filter, mind to share a screenshot?
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
LaRisposta4 01/30/2022 7:42 AM
Bobcat said something about it? I am going crazy guys 🤦‍♂️😭
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if no one is looking at the denylist then anyone can abuse it. anyone can submit any hotspot to the list.
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LaRisposta4
The things that make me mad is that i don’t understand WHY were added
possible someone just added you. reading the HIP 40, did they mention how the algorithm works?
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ken340
if no one is looking at the denylist then anyone can abuse it. anyone can submit any hotspot to the list.
Anyone can be added but official will do validate separately~
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It is transparent. There are guys who are not spoofer are on the list too.
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ken340
It is transparent. There are guys who are not spoofer are on the list too.
Yes, me for example…i really don’t understand why and i will do anything to be removed from that list…
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ken340
possible someone just added you. reading the HIP 40, did they mention how the algorithm works?
Mmm no, i didn’t find anything about how it works
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why they should say how the algorithm work? to cheat it?
22:21
that should stay secret
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Dejavu
that should stay secret
Yes I agree with you...I hope they will consider the removal tickets submitted and expalin to end user why and how to fix the problem...remember that not ALL are cheaters...
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LaRisposta4
Yes I agree with you...I hope they will consider the removal tickets submitted and expalin to end user why and how to fix the problem...remember that not ALL are cheaters...
i expect mine to be reported any time soon, i am top 10 in my city with cotx using vpn.. (edited)
23:55
if you give people the option to kill for food, will do it
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Yesterday someone asked me how to report a gamer because it was a impossible location, I checked it on Google maps and there where 4 towers within 200m. It is even more stupid that when you search on address to add a miner, your stuck with the pointer on the place that the app chooses.
00:10
Some people also don't get it that there are many people that just don't want to place the pointer on the right location due to privacy reasons.
00:14
I have even seen some tower lease agreements where it is not allowed to mention the exact location of transmitters on a public website. Instead you need to mention a region.
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honestly I don't know but this thing make me crazy...i don't understand why and don't know how to be removed is so frustrating
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Dejavu
if you give people the option to kill for food, will do it
yes, someone reported me also 😉
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I think people should verify before report someone...unbelievable guys...:(
00:59
is there any admin that take a look of issues opened about the denylist?
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All I can say that it is not done as per what they said. I believe they just blanket everyone. Also how many people like us can afford to be validators? Common guys always the victim
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01:08
To think about it. How many people know what they are doing when they purchase and install it the first time?
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nah, id say like 0.01% are common guys (edited)
01:09
all others cheat deliberately
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When you first inserted the location you realised that it is not working well? You try to move it to in-laws, friends place.
01:11
How many of you have hnt to change the location?
01:12
Deliberate Chesther have similar IP address as they use VPN. You can check those keep witnessing each other. Look at their IP address
01:13
Those are cheaters. They put the miners in a same room with a VPN. So they have similar IP address
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LaRisposta4 01/31/2022 1:17 AM
i agree with you guys...hope they consider this...i would like to talk with an admin about this...i am avaliable to give explaination about everything because i'm feel honest and innocent...
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ken340
Those are cheaters. They put the miners in a same room with a VPN. So they have similar IP address
nothing wrong with hotspots in the same room, is just not a good setup (edited)
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ken340
Those are cheaters. They put the miners in a same room with a VPN. So they have similar IP address
LaRisposta4 01/31/2022 1:18 AM
I think the first main objective is try to kill these kind of cheaters
01:18
they are the evil of the net
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thats not a chat
01:19
he can have 100 hotspots in his house
01:19
as long he does not use other hacks is fine
01:19
they will invalidate eachother anyway
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01:19
if they do not invalidate, they are hacking
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01:20
so average Joe that has two hotspots on the same house IS NOT a spoofer
01:21
he does invalid itself, other than that is fine
01:21
he still gets 13 witnesses on his beacon
01:21
not a perfect setup? so what
01:21
he can have 5 hotspots on his house
01:21
so what?
01:22
even tho that's a really bad setup :)) (edited)
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LaRisposta4 01/31/2022 1:22 AM
so clear your explaination and totally agree with you 🙂
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my biggest problem is with those who set the location km away from the real one
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01:23
i try find locations with good coverage
01:23
and in reality nothing there
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Dejavu
nothing wrong with hotspots in the same room, is just not a good setup (edited)
if you put your miner in the same room but assert location at a different location.
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ken340
if you put your miner in the same room but assert location at a different location.
LaRisposta4 01/31/2022 1:23 AM
this is cheating
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that's why some people are complaining about low rewards in good areas, most might not be even there, in suburbs this happens alot as people from high density hexes move the location for netter scale
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LaRisposta4
this is cheating
within a reasonable limit, privacy is good
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Dejavu
within a reasonable limit, privacy is good
LaRisposta4 01/31/2022 1:25 AM
yes yes
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i have seen issues in those closed community, where council is nasty
01:26
or people being afraid of radiations
01:26
omg..helium will radiate me...lol
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captainhindsight 02/01/2022 4:52 AM
When is this deny list being re-enabled?
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How come Some hotspots witness beacons every minute and far away? They are cheating and never sending out their own beacons. How do they do that????
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Hi. I have several (50-60) Pisces Miner in my area (Jolly Blush Parakeet) which only witness each other. They were all in one wallet weeks ago and now have been transfered to several wallets. Looks pretty much like spoofing. example wallet: 13SPEQ96J8GX9NKgub1L8JZRuoNU5cjUEEsCemmavsdsVVkpZMG can you guys look into that?
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Slevin
Hi. I have several (50-60) Pisces Miner in my area (Jolly Blush Parakeet) which only witness each other. They were all in one wallet weeks ago and now have been transfered to several wallets. Looks pretty much like spoofing. example wallet: 13SPEQ96J8GX9NKgub1L8JZRuoNU5cjUEEsCemmavsdsVVkpZMG can you guys look into that?
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
👍 1
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Slevin
Hi. I have several (50-60) Pisces Miner in my area (Jolly Blush Parakeet) which only witness each other. They were all in one wallet weeks ago and now have been transfered to several wallets. Looks pretty much like spoofing. example wallet: 13SPEQ96J8GX9NKgub1L8JZRuoNU5cjUEEsCemmavsdsVVkpZMG can you guys look into that?
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 5:40 AM
Yep - seeing same here. Couple weeks ago, 60 in one wallet, all spoofing. Now split across multiple wallets. Many were already banned and offline but a few whiners ruined that by kicking up an unholy row until Helium capitulated and disabled the deny list.
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captainhindsight
Yep - seeing same here. Couple weeks ago, 60 in one wallet, all spoofing. Now split across multiple wallets. Many were already banned and offline but a few whiners ruined that by kicking up an unholy row until Helium capitulated and disabled the deny list.
ive reported them now on github
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a whole wack of Pisces and Heltec clusters have been firing up over the last 4-5 days globally. I'm actually surprised how many there are and how much they're earning on a short amount of time.
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Slevin
ive reported them now on github
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 6:54 AM
Good man 🤝
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604WW
a whole wack of Pisces and Heltec clusters have been firing up over the last 4-5 days globally. I'm actually surprised how many there are and how much they're earning on a short amount of time.
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 6:55 AM
The number I heard was forty five thousand hotspots
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captainhindsight
The number I heard was forty five thousand hotspots
45kish was the original number on the denylist but i think a good percentage were removed. I'm more referring to new clusters that are coming up that are not on the denylist. the user submitted requests/additions is growing pretty fast.
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604WW
45kish was the original number on the denylist but i think a good percentage were removed. I'm more referring to new clusters that are coming up that are not on the denylist. the user submitted requests/additions is growing pretty fast.
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 6:58 AM
I think it is growing fast - and the longer we leave it, the more difficult it will become to spot them. They are already diversifying their wallet collection to further obscure their activities
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captainhindsight
I think it is growing fast - and the longer we leave it, the more difficult it will become to spot them. They are already diversifying their wallet collection to further obscure their activities
agree. i just hope Helium is going to act on them quickly. diversifying their wallets leaves a trail to other clusters. Hopefully helium has the tools/scripts to find the paper trail. the cluster in my area i was able to trace it back to a large cluster that is already on the denylist, but these hotspots in my area aren't on the denylist yet.
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captainhindsight 02/01/2022 7:02 AM
I'm looking at getting a mapper and mapping the area around me. Can't help but think it would be in everyone's interest for Helium to contribute toward the cost of user-friendly mappers for community use.
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mapper would help add to the evidence. have you reported any in your area to the denylist?
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captainhindsight 02/01/2022 7:16 AM
I have not - because they are already on the deny list and were offline - until the whiners ruined it. Helium are damned if they do and damned if they don't. For months people complained loudly that Helium weren't doing anything to stop gamers. The moment they do, very successfully, some people completely lose their minds and we're back to square one and gamers are taking thousands in rewards every day that should be going to honest hotspot operators.
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i still believe that behind all those large clusters are the hotspot makers
08:30
if get on the ban, they simply change the chip
08:30
and sell or simply spoof again until caught
08:31
Pisces for sure
08:31
is way to obvious
08:31
i dont know why DEWI does not ask for buyers list as done on with COTX
08:32
is just impossible that 50%+ of Pisces to be sold to scammers (edited)
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Dejavu
is just impossible that 50%+ of Pisces to be sold to scammers (edited)
Pisces and Heltec spoofers are exploding exponentially. almost all the large clusters popping up are one of the two nowadays
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604WW
Pisces and Heltec spoofers are exploding exponentially. almost all the large clusters popping up are one of the two nowadays
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 9:14 AM
Surely it is possible for Helium to investigate and withdraw their license?
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Can someone point me to where the actual rules are when placing a hotspot ? Asking for a friend, lol
10:03
You know don't want to break some arbitrary rule that doesn't exist and be banned
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captainhindsight
Surely it is possible for Helium to investigate and withdraw their license?
Helium doesnt issue "licenses" to withdraw. And DeWI has one "hammer" it can deny future hotspots from onboarding. That was it untill the denylist and all that does is stop hotspots from beaconing and witnessing and it requires vendor impelemtation.
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Baba Looey
Can someone point me to where the actual rules are when placing a hotspot ? Asking for a friend, lol
Place it close to where its located. A few hundred feet doesnt matter in most cases unless you are that dense. It will "snap" to the middlle of the nearest 50ft sized hex. (edited)
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waveform
Helium doesnt issue "licenses" to withdraw. And DeWI has one "hammer" it can deny future hotspots from onboarding. That was it untill the denylist and all that does is stop hotspots from beaconing and witnessing and it requires vendor impelemtation.
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 10:09 AM
So, unless I've misunderstood, I could go out and build thousands of hotspots and spoof them all?
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captainhindsight
So, unless I've misunderstood, I could go out and build thousands of hotspots and spoof them all?
You have
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waveform
You have
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 10:11 AM
Great - care to explain?
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captainhindsight
Great - care to explain?
If you are 10 km from the nearest hotspot, asserting 100m away from your real location wont really matter. But when you are in a dense area that would be un-sporting. Most offgrid locations are not accurately asserted due to posibility of theft. And Ive not asserted mine at hosts exactly at their houses due to lots of reports of people coming round to peoples houses and knocking on doors asking to buy, asking how to copy config or actual threats asking to turn it off.
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captainhindsight
Great - care to explain?
Arh, discord disconnected so I responded to wrong comment.
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captainhindsight
So, unless I've misunderstood, I could go out and build thousands of hotspots and spoof them all?
You can see what happened - Cotx. And look at the threats and hassle DeWI got from Cotx users who had hotspots.
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waveform
You can see what happened - Cotx. And look at the threats and hassle DeWI got from Cotx users who had hotspots.
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 10:25 AM
Forgive me - I'm not quite up to speed on that one. I vaguely recall that Cotx allegedly released hotspots to chosen individuals to the exclusion of the general public - or something like that. I got the impression that their ability to output more hotspots was restricted or withdrawn in some way. Beyond that, I'm completely in the dark
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captainhindsight
Forgive me - I'm not quite up to speed on that one. I vaguely recall that Cotx allegedly released hotspots to chosen individuals to the exclusion of the general public - or something like that. I got the impression that their ability to output more hotspots was restricted or withdrawn in some way. Beyond that, I'm completely in the dark
And those chosen individuals confiigured them in massive spoofing networks. And some of that income went back to cotx. But anyway, that nothing to do with HIP40 validator denylist (edited)
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waveform
And those chosen individuals confiigured them in massive spoofing networks. And some of that income went back to cotx. But anyway, that nothing to do with HIP40 validator denylist (edited)
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 10:32 AM
So what was the outcry from cotx owners about? What form did it take?
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captainhindsight
I have not - because they are already on the deny list and were offline - until the whiners ruined it. Helium are damned if they do and damned if they don't. For months people complained loudly that Helium weren't doing anything to stop gamers. The moment they do, very successfully, some people completely lose their minds and we're back to square one and gamers are taking thousands in rewards every day that should be going to honest hotspot operators.
I've got 7 sensecaps all in different locations and all 7 was gone when that deny list accidentally added mines too... and I lost 10 days of earning because of a "bug" I know people that owns 80/60/etc all gone for weeks. Because of that they removed it and will implement it properly!
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captainhindsight
So what was the outcry from cotx owners about? What form did it take?
Cotx onboading was stopped so lots of complaints that Helium were punishing Cotx owners - read it all in #foundation
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i own 3 cotx...doubt people made threats
10:45
we were worried on refunds from the resellers (edited)
10:46
especially the reseller from Romania, dodgy mafia guy
10:46
meet him in person, i know what i am talking about
10:47
not that was worth the wait, basically a brick if external filters not used
10:49
i still don't give a damn about cotx..i know warranty means 0
10:49
almost everyone broke the usb power port on them (edited)
10:49
only worry is that they push fw updates
10:50
a thing that is a big flaw on helium (edited)
10:50
letting vendors push fw updates, imagine what happens if bobcat wants to sabotage helium... (edited)
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must be, easy to fix if on ban list
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waveform
Cotx onboading was stopped so lots of complaints that Helium were punishing Cotx owners - read it all in #foundation
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:31 AM
So there is another hammer then - cancel their onboarding keys - yes?
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SSMG
I've got 7 sensecaps all in different locations and all 7 was gone when that deny list accidentally added mines too... and I lost 10 days of earning because of a "bug" I know people that owns 80/60/etc all gone for weeks. Because of that they removed it and will implement it properly!
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:33 AM
When? How many thousands of $ will be lost to EVERYONE in the meantime?
11:35
"I'd much rather EVERYONE lose out than my 7 hotspots be temporarily inconvenienced "
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captainhindsight
So there is another hammer then - cancel their onboarding keys - yes?
Thats the only hammer DeWI have against a vendor. Helium have the deny list which is against indivdual hotpsots. Helium dont want to own "the" denylist, they want it to be community created - hence HIP40
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captainhindsight
"I'd much rather EVERYONE lose out than my 7 hotspots be temporarily inconvenienced "
lol... you missed the point!
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waveform
Thats the only hammer DeWI have against a vendor. Helium have the deny list which is against indivdual hotpsots. Helium dont want to own "the" denylist, they want it to be community created - hence HIP40
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:50 AM
So, to be sure I've understood correctly... DeWI can withdraw access to the supply of onboarding keys? And thus stop a given vendor adding more hotspots to the network? Helium, presumably through validators, can operate a ban list, to drop PoC activity by selected hotspots and thus remove their access to PoC rewards? Have I got it right so far?
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SSMG
lol... you missed the point!
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:50 AM
What point do you think I missed?
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captainhindsight
So, to be sure I've understood correctly... DeWI can withdraw access to the supply of onboarding keys? And thus stop a given vendor adding more hotspots to the network? Helium, presumably through validators, can operate a ban list, to drop PoC activity by selected hotspots and thus remove their access to PoC rewards? Have I got it right so far?
DeWI - Yes
11:52
Helium have just published a list and said that hotspots with their firmware will not Challenge or Accept a witness on the denylist (I think I got that right). Validator denylists are what this HIP is about
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captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:53 AM
Ok. Thanks for that clarification 👍
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Other vendors can implement the list in the same way. SenseCAP have I know. Not sure if bobcat have yet
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captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:54 AM
So I'm at liberty to ask Bobcat if they have, or not, and encourage them to do so?
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Obviously ones with modifed firmware wont implement the list, but if everyone else does they can only beacon if another modified one challenges them to beacon.
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captainhindsight
So I'm at liberty to ask Bobcat if they have, or not, and encourage them to do so?
Nothing to stop you
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captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:56 AM
And the validator deny list is an option for democratising the deny list?
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captainhindsight
And the validator deny list is an option for democratising the deny list?
Read the HIP - yes
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captainhindsight 02/01/2022 11:57 AM
So the 'power' will reside with validators? And the only influence hotspot owners might have is by staking with a validator?
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captainhindsight
So the 'power' will reside with validators? And the only influence hotspot owners might have is by staking with a validator?
I think the idea is that people can report a hotspot to a list creator who verifies it, and then validators can subscribe to lists. And if all of the consensus group agree then that hotspot can only earn for data transfer in that epoch. (edited)
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waveform
I think the idea is that people can report a hotspot to a list creator who verifies it, and then validators can subscribe to lists. And if all of the consensus group agree then that hotspot can only earn for data transfer in that epoch. (edited)
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 12:02 PM
I appreciate your patience. I'll go read the HIP - as I should have done in the first place 🙏
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waveform
I think the idea is that people can report a hotspot to a list creator who verifies it, and then validators can subscribe to lists. And if all of the consensus group agree then that hotspot can only earn for data transfer in that epoch. (edited)
Awesome idea but I think that at The Moment there are too much requests in github for adding and removing hotspots…and no information about these requests is given…in case you were added to that list accidentally or you proof that you don’t cheating or gaming…you are losing so much time and Earn to wait an update. Btw i agree that a denylist and a validator list is necessary and a great idea…big up to all developer Who work in this project 💪
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LaRisposta4
Awesome idea but I think that at The Moment there are too much requests in github for adding and removing hotspots…and no information about these requests is given…in case you were added to that list accidentally or you proof that you don’t cheating or gaming…you are losing so much time and Earn to wait an update. Btw i agree that a denylist and a validator list is necessary and a great idea…big up to all developer Who work in this project 💪
This HIP has nothing to do with the github denylist. The github process is a temp measure and its a horrible method. Originally this HIP was only going to look at the most obvious gaming hotspots and the ones suggested were to be evaluated for new methods of gaming. The reporting for this is not "take this hotspot down" but "look and see if this is a gaming technique", there would be no status updates to people reporting. But there would be a method of complaint if you appeared on the list. Too many people think that reporting a hotspot means that they will stop that hotspot earnng. It wont be that simple.
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waveform
This HIP has nothing to do with the github denylist. The github process is a temp measure and its a horrible method. Originally this HIP was only going to look at the most obvious gaming hotspots and the ones suggested were to be evaluated for new methods of gaming. The reporting for this is not "take this hotspot down" but "look and see if this is a gaming technique", there would be no status updates to people reporting. But there would be a method of complaint if you appeared on the list. Too many people think that reporting a hotspot means that they will stop that hotspot earnng. It wont be that simple.
Thanks for The clarification, now i really understand The mission of this HIP…i hope that The reports will be analized and take action (adding or removed from that list) in a time of period not too long ☺
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LaRisposta4
Thanks for The clarification, now i really understand The mission of this HIP…i hope that The reports will be analized and take action (adding or removed from that list) in a time of period not too long ☺
There really shouldnt be at all a way for people to "report" a hotspot and expect it to be "banned". The reporting should be really for someone to look at it, some analysis done based on known cheating, or some AI/Machine Leaning or a combination .... and then all similar hotspots evaluated and some sort of decision made that decides this is undesired behavior. And all similar or worst similar hotspots are stopped from witnessing or beaconing till that behaviour stops. This proposal suggests that hotspots are stopped from earning from POC for as long as they are misbehaving as long as the validators all agree. It does stop them earning from data transfers.
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waveform
There really shouldnt be at all a way for people to "report" a hotspot and expect it to be "banned". The reporting should be really for someone to look at it, some analysis done based on known cheating, or some AI/Machine Leaning or a combination .... and then all similar hotspots evaluated and some sort of decision made that decides this is undesired behavior. And all similar or worst similar hotspots are stopped from witnessing or beaconing till that behaviour stops. This proposal suggests that hotspots are stopped from earning from POC for as long as they are misbehaving as long as the validators all agree. It does stop them earning from data transfers.
LaRisposta4 02/01/2022 1:21 PM
This method sounds Perfect 🙌🙌
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waveform
There really shouldnt be at all a way for people to "report" a hotspot and expect it to be "banned". The reporting should be really for someone to look at it, some analysis done based on known cheating, or some AI/Machine Leaning or a combination .... and then all similar hotspots evaluated and some sort of decision made that decides this is undesired behavior. And all similar or worst similar hotspots are stopped from witnessing or beaconing till that behaviour stops. This proposal suggests that hotspots are stopped from earning from POC for as long as they are misbehaving as long as the validators all agree. It does stop them earning from data transfers.
captainhindsight 02/01/2022 3:44 PM
Sounds logical, and good way to avoid vigilantism - or claims of it. Examine suspect hotspot behaviours, agree classes of behaviour that are considered gaming, restrict earnings of any hotspots which fall into the agreed classes to data transfer only. Good way implement a policy driven approach and reduce friction 👍
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What about the blacklist of second-hand equipment?
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looks like helium are starting to tag some of the denylist entries as reviewed and closed.
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Is the denylist in place yet btw? So are hotspots that are on already affected and punished?
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pdkb
What about the blacklist of second-hand equipment?
and @604WW @Nay Askin Non of these issues are on this HIP which is for the future denylist for validators to use.
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waveform
and @604WW @Nay Askin Non of these issues are on this HIP which is for the future denylist for validators to use.
so where do we discuss it?
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604WW
so where do we discuss it?
#poc-discussion if you are discussing the status of the current denylist and what is happening with it, as it is disabling poc earnings for denied hotspots
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waveform
#poc-discussion if you are discussing the status of the current denylist and what is happening with it, as it is disabling poc earnings for denied hotspots
got it. thanks @waveform
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#poc-discussion
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waveform
Cotx onboading was stopped so lots of complaints that Helium were punishing Cotx owners - read it all in #foundation
so I cant onboard a new device? what about purchasing a used device? anything to consider here?
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pixel01
so I cant onboard a new device? what about purchasing a used device? anything to consider here?
Ask in #questions-and-answers
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waveform
Obviously ones with modifed firmware wont implement the list, but if everyone else does they can only beacon if another modified one challenges them to beacon.
But if the hackers modify the hotspot firmware, doesn't this mean they will still beacon and witness within their own clusters? And earn the same amount of HNT they did before?
07:27
Didn't the hackers used modified firmware already?
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I was just about to ask that same thing. Isn't it just a simple parameter/toggle to allow/deny using the blacklist.
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Or the helium denylist only stops sharing external witnesses between the hackers hotspot fleet?
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Pendraloth
But if the hackers modify the hotspot firmware, doesn't this mean they will still beacon and witness within their own clusters? And earn the same amount of HNT they did before?
They could only beacon if challenged by another hotspot with hacked firmware.
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Nice then 😄
07:28
Makes sense
07:28
🙂
07:29
I noticed an increase in earnings
07:29
is it related to the denylist being implemented?
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Pendraloth
is it related to the denylist being implemented?
Everything is related to changes in earnings
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So even if bobcat doesn't implement the list, the hackers will only get challenges from bobcats and get less earnings still
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Pendraloth
So even if bobcat doesn't implement the list, the hackers will only get challenges from bobcats and get less earnings still
Yes, as SenseCap has implemented the list no SenseCap will challenge them or recieve witnesses receiptsfrom them
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 11:06 AM
So that's SenseCap and Helium OG on board for sure?
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If I buy a second hand device which is on the deny list and I do not cheat, will it automatically be removed from the deny list or do I have to do something about it?
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captainhindsight
So that's SenseCap and Helium OG on board for sure?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/02/2022 12:02 PM
I believe bobcat have as well now
12:02
i think mostly everyone has by now? might be a few small stragglers
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I believe bobcat have as well now
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 12:03 PM
Thanks for the info sir 🙏
12:03
If only we could get Pisces on board 😏
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bluecat
If I buy a second hand device which is on the deny list and I do not cheat, will it automatically be removed from the deny list or do I have to do something about it?
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 12:05 PM
Doesn't seem terribly likely
12:09
Although, I believe that under this HIP, hotspots will be 'judged' from epoch to epoch, so a hotspot could potentially, once it no longer fits the selection criteria for a class of behaviour considered unacceptable, be taken off the deny list fairly quickly. I suspect that's why the HIP takes a classification approach rather than a hotspot-by-hotspot approach (edited)
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removals are manual, already alot of people buy so called banned hotspots (edited)
14:20
they removed some, but as of now there is no excuse
14:21
even my cat knows about the ban list
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14:21
so not a real excuse in the future, that a banned hotspot was bought (edited)
14:22
“by mistake”
14:23
the manual report work/removal will just become unmanageable (edited)
14:25
buy with paypal, get your money back in case of issues
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Dejavu
so not a real excuse in the future, that a banned hotspot was bought (edited)
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 3:34 PM
Excuse for whom?
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captainhindsight
Excuse for whom?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 3:52 PM
For the "buyer"
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captainhindsight
If only we could get Pisces on board 😏
Yeah, can't that manifacturer be kicked of the network? It's garbage
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zzeddd
Yeah, can't that manifacturer be kicked of the network? It's garbage
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 3:56 PM
Then what happens to the users of that hardware?
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zzeddd
Yeah, can't that manifacturer be kicked of the network? It's garbage
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 3:56 PM
They are a huge spoofer - an industry in their own right. The toothpaste is really out of the tube there. Bonafide catastrophe
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I love the toothpaste expression
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then what happens to the users of that hardware?
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 3:57 PM
The honest ones or the spoofers?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then what happens to the users of that hardware?
Good question. Maybe they can try and get their money back from the seller. But I haven't seen much honest earning Pisces miners yet
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captainhindsight
The honest ones or the spoofers?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 3:57 PM
The honest ones. I don't give a damn about the cheaters. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The honest ones. I don't give a damn about the cheaters. 😉
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 3:58 PM
I haven't seen any honest ones. Surely though, the vendor has to take some responsibility?
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captainhindsight
I haven't seen any honest ones. Surely though, the vendor has to take some responsibility?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 3:59 PM
They exists. No, the vendor doesn't, because there is no stick to punish them for bad behavior.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They exists. No, the vendor doesn't, because there is no stick to punish them for bad behavior.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:00 PM
Stop giving them onboarding keys?
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captainhindsight
Stop giving them onboarding keys?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:01 PM
it doesn't work that way. They make the keys.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
it doesn't work that way. They make the keys.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:01 PM
Sounds like a bit of a design flaw
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captainhindsight
Sounds like a bit of a design flaw
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:02 PM
Not really. Otherwise you end up with a centralized system with Helium Inc (or some other group) controlling keys.
16:04
It's the whole point of HIP19
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not really. Otherwise you end up with a centralized system with Helium Inc (or some other group) controlling keys.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:05 PM
I realise that it's a contentious issue. But even a DAO (and I use that term cautiously, as I only think I know what it means) needs governance - otherwise, chaos ensues.
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captainhindsight
I realise that it's a contentious issue. But even a DAO (and I use that term cautiously, as I only think I know what it means) needs governance - otherwise, chaos ensues.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:06 PM
Right. But again, the stick/governance of bad actor vendors was never built. We need a HIP for it. 🙂
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:06 PM
This proposal seeks to lay out requirements for third-party manufacturers to be approved by the community, and a process by which onboarding keys can be issued by Helium, Inc to those manufacturers.
16:06
I'm a community member. I haven't approved a single vendor
16:07
onboarding keys can be issued by Helium Inc
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captainhindsight
This proposal seeks to lay out requirements for third-party manufacturers to be approved by the community, and a process by which onboarding keys can be issued by Helium, Inc to those manufacturers.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:07 PM
The "community" in that case is MOC as I understand it.
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:07 PM
MOC?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:07 PM
Helium Inc does not approve vendors
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:08 PM
MOC?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:08 PM
Manufacturer Onboarding Committee? (something like that)
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:09 PM
And who is that then?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:09 PM
The #foundation channel would know
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:09 PM
Good grief! It's like swimming in treacle!
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captainhindsight
And who is that then?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:10 PM
A separate group to keep things from not being controlled by Helium Inc
16:10
Same as Dewi
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:11 PM
The community, in the fullest sense, doesn't have a chance of having an input. Half of them don't even understand the fundamentals of the network - or even anything beyond plugging in a hotspot near a window.
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captainhindsight
The community, in the fullest sense, doesn't have a chance of having an input. Half of them don't even understand the fundamentals of the network - or even anything beyond plugging in a hotspot near a window.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:12 PM
Would you really want them to? lol If they have no idea... 😉
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:14 PM
To be completely honest - I'm not thick, but I find the whole thing confusing to the point of frustration. Decentralised is fine, unless its impenetrable to the average interested party and then it becomes pointless
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captainhindsight
To be completely honest - I'm not thick, but I find the whole thing confusing to the point of frustration. Decentralised is fine, unless its impenetrable to the average interested party and then it becomes pointless
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:17 PM
no worries. The rabbit hole is very deep. There is a ton on stuff in this system. There are still parts that I have no idea about. Maybe if I didn't have a full time job I could learn it all... maybe.. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
no worries. The rabbit hole is very deep. There is a ton on stuff in this system. There are still parts that I have no idea about. Maybe if I didn't have a full time job I could learn it all... maybe.. 😉
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:21 PM
I feel like I have two full time jobs - one that pays the bills and one that doesn't. I'm more stimulated by the one that doesn't pay the bills - but shouldn't need to wade through a distributed version of war and peace just to have a hope of casting my vote. Even github leaves me cold. Decentralised shouldn't mean not-joined-up and requiring expertise which is typical to niche groups of people.
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captainhindsight
I feel like I have two full time jobs - one that pays the bills and one that doesn't. I'm more stimulated by the one that doesn't pay the bills - but shouldn't need to wade through a distributed version of war and peace just to have a hope of casting my vote. Even github leaves me cold. Decentralised shouldn't mean not-joined-up and requiring expertise which is typical to niche groups of people.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:22 PM
I mean, that's any system. Not all users are going to know a system 100%, and that's ok. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I mean, that's any system. Not all users are going to know a system 100%, and that's ok. 🙂
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:28 PM
I'm talking here about fundamental things. The deny list is a prime example. Helium quietly implemented a deny list which, probably unknown to the bulk of the community, had a positive impact for honest hotspot operators. As far as I can tell, a very small fraction of the community objected to the manner in which the deny list was implemented. So now, a much larger fraction of the community suffers because the list was revoked to satisfy the minority. I thought a fundamental aspect of decentralization was democracy - and what we see here isn't democratic - because the majority have absolutely no idea not only how to vote - but that it's even an option. (edited)
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captainhindsight
I'm talking here about fundamental things. The deny list is a prime example. Helium quietly implemented a deny list which, probably unknown to the bulk of the community, had a positive impact for honest hotspot operators. As far as I can tell, a very small fraction of the community objected to the manner in which the deny list was implemented. So now, a much larger fraction of the community suffers because the list was revoked to satisfy the minority. I thought a fundamental aspect of decentralization was democracy - and what we see here isn't democratic - because the majority have absolutely no idea not only how to vote - but that it's even an option. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:33 PM
The way that denylist was put in place was wrong. It needed fixing anyway.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The way that denylist was put in place was wrong. It needed fixing anyway.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:33 PM
Has no bearing on my point.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:33 PM
Everyone gets notifications about votes.
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Not everyone even knows what they are voting for
16:34
Not everyone is on discord
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Everyone gets notifications about votes.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:34 PM
Do they? How? Where?
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In the app
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16:34
The average joe will just skip# past
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HitmakerAP
In the app
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:34 PM
The Helium app? I almost never use it
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HitmakerAP
The average joe will just skip# past
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:34 PM
same with any voting.
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Depends how you put it
16:35
Not any voting, this voting system is different
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HitmakerAP
Not any voting, this voting system is different
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:36 PM
How so? It's voting. People don't care enough to vote
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
same with any voting.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:36 PM
Sorry - that just sound like apathy, which I find disappointing, coming from a community mentor.
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captainhindsight
Sorry - that just sound like apathy, which I find disappointing, coming from a community mentor.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:36 PM
Being realistic is not apathy. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
How so? It's voting. People don't care enough to vote
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:37 PM
They can't care if it's not on their radar
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I’m saying the average joe sees the alert, and has no clue what it is or what the voting is for. And to top it off . That 60ish year old guy sees he has to pay for it 😆 I mean list goes on (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Being realistic is not apathy. 😉
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:37 PM
Nice dodge.
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captainhindsight
They can't care if it's not on their radar
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:37 PM
People choose for themselves what they care about. They are all told about votes, and have the ability to learn about the subject if they so choose. You can lead a horse to water... 😉
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Yea especially if the water is contaminated 😆
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captainhindsight
Nice dodge.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:38 PM
It's not a dodge. If I was apathetic, do you really think I would spend so much time here? 🙂
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HitmakerAP
Yea especially if the water is contaminated 😆
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:39 PM
Funny... You get my point though. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
People choose for themselves what they care about. They are all told about votes, and have the ability to learn about the subject if they so choose. You can lead a horse to water... 😉
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:39 PM
No. They aren't all told. Go do a straw poll even limited to just people who managed to find discord and I'll bet you'll find most people have no idea what opportunities exist for contribution.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not a dodge. If I was apathetic, do you really think I would spend so much time here? 🙂
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:40 PM
Sometimes I wonder.
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captainhindsight
No. They aren't all told. Go do a straw poll even limited to just people who managed to find discord and I'll bet you'll find most people have no idea what opportunities exist for contribution.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:40 PM
Again, they are told. The app tells them.
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Half the people I told to start mining have never heard of discord. And the older ones have no clue how to work the smart phone they own. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Again, they are told. The app tells them.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:41 PM
Not if they don't use the app. And what happens when vendors release their own apps?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:41 PM
The point is, you can't make people vote, or understand what they are voting for if they don't choose to learn.
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Needs to be a vote committee or something
16:41
A very large panel
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captainhindsight
Not if they don't use the app. And what happens when vendors release their own apps?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:41 PM
Everyone has the app. It's the only way to onboard hotspots.
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They can have the app. But never use the app
16:42
Most only use if they noticed declining rewards
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The point is, you can't make people vote, or understand what they are voting for if they don't choose to learn.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:42 PM
But you can make them aware of their opportunities, and provide mechanisms which make things easy for anybody with the motivation to contribute
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captainhindsight
But you can make them aware of their opportunities, and provide mechanisms which make things easy for anybody with the motivation to contribute
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:42 PM
That is already there.
16:43
Not everything can be easy.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Everyone has the app. It's the only way to onboard hotspots.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:43 PM
Yep - I used it to onboard my two Bobcats. Hardly ever since
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is already there.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:43 PM
Nah.
16:44
The whole thing is obscure
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captainhindsight
The whole thing is obscure
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:44 PM
Only due to lack of knowledge. It's there for the for the taking for anyone that wants it.
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:45 PM
You call this mentoring?
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captainhindsight
You call this mentoring?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:46 PM
This isn't about me
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:46 PM
In my experience this sort of approach is commonly referred to as placing bricks on the pitch
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:47 PM
And we're way off the rails for this channel 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This isn't about me
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:47 PM
You're supposedly a mentor. Instead evasive and apathetic (edited)
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captainhindsight
In my experience this sort of approach is commonly referred to as placing bricks on the pitch
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:47 PM
Hmm... not familiar with that expression.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hmm... not familiar with that expression.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:47 PM
That doesn't surprise me
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captainhindsight
You're supposedly a mentor. Instead evasive and apathetic (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:48 PM
If you choose to be rude, this conversation will be over. There is no reason to be insulting.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you choose to be rude, this conversation will be over. There is no reason to be insulting.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:49 PM
Rude how? We're having an adult conversation
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captainhindsight
Rude how? We're having an adult conversation
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:50 PM
Calling me evasive and apathetic, neither of which are true.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Calling me evasive and apathetic, neither of which are true.
captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:51 PM
That's my perception, based on some of our interactions. There's nothing rude about it.
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16:52
Imagine you wanted to be a carpenter and so became apprenticed to an established craftsman...
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16:53
And when you arrive, full of enthusiasm and ready to learn, he says....
16:53
There's some trees over there and some tools, if you can find them.
16:53
And that's it.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/02/2022 4:55 PM
Not at all. More "There is the woodworking section of the library. Put in the effort to learn the basics, then come back."
16:55
"Teach a man to fish...", if you will. (edited)
16:56
I think you put too much on this "mentor" tag 🙂
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captainhindsight 02/02/2022 4:57 PM
Yeah - I think you said the same thing yesterday. Yes - I agree - I've given far too much credence to that tag on this occasion. I'll bid you good evening and invest my time more productively elsewhere.
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I don't think it's necessary to vote to prevent thieves. Not everything has to have a constitution. theft is a crime and this is a fact known and accepted all over the world. Accounts that are blatantly spoofing should be blocked with a "decentralized self-control mechanism" without consulting or asking anyone, and honest users should be rewarded. I think only spoofers would oppose it.
00:42
I don't see any difference between sticking your hand in my pocket and stealing money or by spoofing from my digital wallet. both the same.
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oas
I don't think it's necessary to vote to prevent thieves. Not everything has to have a constitution. theft is a crime and this is a fact known and accepted all over the world. Accounts that are blatantly spoofing should be blocked with a "decentralized self-control mechanism" without consulting or asking anyone, and honest users should be rewarded. I think only spoofers would oppose it.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/03/2022 12:42 AM
What you are describing is PoC
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Is denylist online now or? Because I see bunch of hotspots that were added to the list but are still running and getting rewards.
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it is, but only some makers implemented it
09:46
so that's why you still see them earning
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Wolverine
Is denylist online now or? Because I see bunch of hotspots that were added to the list but are still running and getting rewards.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/03/2022 10:06 AM
yes it's live
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yes it's live
Thanks. Was just wondering as some of reported hotspots are still running. Thought they would have been flatlining.
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captainhindsight 02/03/2022 11:24 AM
Live but not applicable to the actual spoofers who only ever witness each other and therefore quietly screwing us all
12:40
nice weird cluster in the mountains, but seems legit?
12:42
in the past there was a 40 hotspot cluster in the city, but seems like he splited them and made them look as valid by placing them in the cities around
12:48
if anyone smart enough to have a look 🙂
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I see this solution as unprofessional, it's like a witch hunt, this makes me lose credibility in this project. they are reporting hotspots randomly and without any sense. this is completely absurd. in the end this will be the playground of a high school. It's a shame how this all ended.
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Jose79
I see this solution as unprofessional, it's like a witch hunt, this makes me lose credibility in this project. they are reporting hotspots randomly and without any sense. this is completely absurd. in the end this will be the playground of a high school. It's a shame how this all ended.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 2:29 AM
Not sure what's you're talking about. The submissions to the current denylist are reviewed. They're not just automatically added.
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Jose79
I see this solution as unprofessional, it's like a witch hunt, this makes me lose credibility in this project. they are reporting hotspots randomly and without any sense. this is completely absurd. in the end this will be the playground of a high school. It's a shame how this all ended.
So many will be reporting hotspots they dont understand can be in locations they are or earning more than they think. They dont understand "offgrid" or optimsied setups. Those reported hotspots will not be put on denylists unless they also indicate cheating methods.
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Jose79
I see this solution as unprofessional, it's like a witch hunt, this makes me lose credibility in this project. they are reporting hotspots randomly and without any sense. this is completely absurd. in the end this will be the playground of a high school. It's a shame how this all ended.
Agree. Although the denylist effectively inhibits cheating, but this method is too stupid. Everyone can report others if they want. Helium team needs to spend a lot of time to verify such a denylist. slowing down the progress of the entire project. Might as well let the hip40 through and set up an automatic add and removal mechanism (edited)
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always
Agree. Although the denylist effectively inhibits cheating, but this method is too stupid. Everyone can report others if they want. Helium team needs to spend a lot of time to verify such a denylist. slowing down the progress of the entire project. Might as well let the hip40 through and set up an automatic add and removal mechanism (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 3:45 AM
Hip40 add/remove would still be manual.
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Jose79
I see this solution as unprofessional, it's like a witch hunt, this makes me lose credibility in this project. they are reporting hotspots randomly and without any sense. this is completely absurd. in the end this will be the playground of a high school. It's a shame how this all ended.
somehow true, but already the witches adapted..see my post above
03:48
this hip is good, as all the witches would know that they are hunted and maybe becomes unprofitable
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03:48
agree that some of the requests are stupid
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03:48
but most reported ones are real clusters
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03:49
03:54
the difference between this one and the farms, is that at least provides some coverage, but in a different city tho
03:55
basically screwing that city on poc
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Dejavu
basically screwing that city on poc
They are screwing everybody by claiming a bigger part of the pie than they deserve. I assume there are a few hotspots listening to RF signals at different locations forwarding to majority of hotspots stacked in a warehouse.
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might be, but i am not that smart to analyze them
04:46
thats why asked here
04:47
if anyone has the time
04:47
i know that location, basically mountains with trees
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Guess just looking at the distance of witnesses should get majority of those hotspots blocked.
04:52
but I am not smart enough to analyze it either
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waveform
So many will be reporting hotspots they dont understand can be in locations they are or earning more than they think. They dont understand "offgrid" or optimsied setups. Those reported hotspots will not be put on denylists unless they also indicate cheating methods.
even the current helium implementation discounts any rules for radio waves propagation and just copy&paste some inverse square formula from Wikipedia. I was checking the mappers work in my city, one of them decided to drive on the motorway that circles around, none of the local hotspots heard it, i guess Doppler (70-80 mph average speed) or the sound proofing trees barrier around. But.. few hotspots in a city 30 miles away got all mapper beacons. So on the map it looks completely fake, but IRL is nothing like theoretical formulas. Anyone who studied and experimented with RF can tell crazy stories. When the deny list is on, it is going to be interesting experience watching the drama
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https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/41#issue-1118044154 is there any moderator or team member can look at my issue? i heard helium started review people's issue, but why my issue is still open and not getting reviewed
Hotspot Name cool-mustard-dachshund Hotspot b58 Address 112fWf7QzFXFApCu6G3Aro34VbXA1sB1zZmzds1URUjVi5EUG8Ns Discord Handle LOSTGE#7363 Hotspot Manufacturer Bobcat Removal Reason I bought this Bobc...
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LOSTGE
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/41#issue-1118044154 is there any moderator or team member can look at my issue? i heard helium started review people's issue, but why my issue is still open and not getting reviewed
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/04/2022 5:24 AM
It will get reviewed in order. So don't worry
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
It will get reviewed in order. So don't worry
mine is no.41
05:25
the latest one is already no.247
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LOSTGE
mine is no.41
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/04/2022 5:31 AM
I'm not in charge of reviewing them, but im sure someone is on it (edited)
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He still deserves an answer lol! can’t skip past him and do others and not address it at least.. @cm 🤪
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
What would be the answer to someone with several hotspots on the denylist transferring them arround in an futile attempt to hide what is going on.
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impuls
What would be the answer to someone with several hotspots on the denylist transferring them arround in an futile attempt to hide what is going on.
“further denied” “proof denied” “list of reasons”> move to the next issue!
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gucci 1
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
savage 😆
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impuls
What would be the answer to someone with several hotspots on the denylist transferring them arround in an futile attempt to hide what is going on.
"and requests may be closed without explanation."
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matmanmining 02/04/2022 8:35 AM
Where can the deny list be found?
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matmanmining
Where can the deny list be found?
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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yea....guess someone will come saying that he bought it and didnt know... (edited)
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14:52
will become standard removal comment
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 2:57 PM
Yeah, we know the cheats are in these channels, always trying to derail efforts to fix the exploits.
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Jose79
I see this solution as unprofessional, it's like a witch hunt, this makes me lose credibility in this project. they are reporting hotspots randomly and without any sense. this is completely absurd. in the end this will be the playground of a high school. It's a shame how this all ended.
captainhindsight 02/04/2022 4:07 PM
You clearly have zero understanding of the intended outcome of this HIP. Meanwhile, 45,000 spoofed devices steal thousands of $$$ in HNT every single day. Please don't try to derail this HIP with FUD. Are you perchance a spoofer?
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always
Agree. Although the denylist effectively inhibits cheating, but this method is too stupid. Everyone can report others if they want. Helium team needs to spend a lot of time to verify such a denylist. slowing down the progress of the entire project. Might as well let the hip40 through and set up an automatic add and removal mechanism (edited)
captainhindsight 02/04/2022 4:10 PM
The people who will oversee the operation of this HIP aren't stupid. I think you may have misunderstood how it will actually work in practice. Perhaps another read-through? Are you a spoofer?
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captainhindsight
The people who will oversee the operation of this HIP aren't stupid. I think you may have misunderstood how it will actually work in practice. Perhaps another read-through? Are you a spoofer?
So if someone doesn't 100% support the denylist then they're a spoofer? I used to track a large cluster with more than 100 hotspots a month ago, and now it has been split into many many small wallets, each wallet has 3-8 hotspots, there are many similar clusters, detecting such a huge work how can just by people post issues on github and review one by one by helium team? That's why I suggest to have an automatic mechanism to do that which should run automatically every day or every week.
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always
So if someone doesn't 100% support the denylist then they're a spoofer? I used to track a large cluster with more than 100 hotspots a month ago, and now it has been split into many many small wallets, each wallet has 3-8 hotspots, there are many similar clusters, detecting such a huge work how can just by people post issues on github and review one by one by helium team? That's why I suggest to have an automatic mechanism to do that which should run automatically every day or every week.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 6:54 PM
Don't you think that if there was an easy automatic way, it would have been done already?
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
please stop looking at my legit miner, try investigate this one 14FAca2qnBuqNwTCHtRnQ5kw5qwgoivNXV27ddUYEw1kBjCjjDj
🤨 1
22:42
i just moved the HS's location away 50m to get better transmit scale, is that illegal or what?
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LOSTGE
please stop looking at my legit miner, try investigate this one 14FAca2qnBuqNwTCHtRnQ5kw5qwgoivNXV27ddUYEw1kBjCjjDj
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 10:56 PM
Now we'll just look even closer
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Now we'll just look even closer
i dont mind but its just wasting ur time
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Now we'll just look even closer
there are thousand of HS mining more than 0.7hnt per day per miner, but u guys focusing my HS that only getting 0.3, 0.2 per day what a joke
😆 1
23:00
try to put ur energy in the right place
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14JEBp4esNJfVGykUbyT1U2D9CCBoH5TSBiruNvQ1ctDFiUa789
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always
Agree. Although the denylist effectively inhibits cheating, but this method is too stupid. Everyone can report others if they want. Helium team needs to spend a lot of time to verify such a denylist. slowing down the progress of the entire project. Might as well let the hip40 through and set up an automatic add and removal mechanism (edited)
Many people don't care if it's really a game behavior, but they are jealous of why other people's income is higher than mine. As a result, a large number of malicious blacklists have been generated. I saw a user in the blacklist asking to be removed and complaining that he spent a lot of time researching and improving the reward, but was actually blacklisted because of the high reward. This is really ironic. If human review can't distinguish correctly, and many people are treated unfairly, why does this mechanism exist?
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LOSTGE
there are thousand of HS mining more than 0.7hnt per day per miner, but u guys focusing my HS that only getting 0.3, 0.2 per day what a joke
HIP40 is an absurd decision. The Helium team is fair and just, but they were taken advantage of by a group of people with ulterior motives, making Helium hurt again.
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Ivan.eth
Many people don't care if it's really a game behavior, but they are jealous of why other people's income is higher than mine. As a result, a large number of malicious blacklists have been generated. I saw a user in the blacklist asking to be removed and complaining that he spent a lot of time researching and improving the reward, but was actually blacklisted because of the high reward. This is really ironic. If human review can't distinguish correctly, and many people are treated unfairly, why does this mechanism exist?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 11:14 PM
No one is put on the denylist simply for high rewards. And hip 40 has not passed. The current denylist is something else.
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Ivan.eth
HIP40 is an absurd decision. The Helium team is fair and just, but they were taken advantage of by a group of people with ulterior motives, making Helium hurt again.
everyone like the hurt game helium made, but nobody discuss the team increase the Intervals time of challenge per day from 12 challenges to 3 challenges in the past year that is the main problem of earning drop, and they implemented this without discussing with the community
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👍 1
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LOSTGE
everyone like the hurt game helium made, but nobody discuss the team increase the Intervals time of challenge per day from 12 challenges to 3 challenges in the past year that is the main problem of earning drop, and they implemented this without discussing with the community
It seems that there are many unreasonable places in the mechanism of Helium itself. Then all kinds of chaos are normal. I understand .
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LOSTGE
everyone like the hurt game helium made, but nobody discuss the team increase the Intervals time of challenge per day from 12 challenges to 3 challenges in the past year that is the main problem of earning drop, and they implemented this without discussing with the community
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 11:31 PM
Liking your own post? Lol
👎 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Liking your own post? Lol
cannot?
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coolcry 1
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LOSTGE
cannot?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 11:37 PM
Oh you can... It's just sad.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Oh you can... It's just sad.
Lol
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23:38
be brave
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/04/2022 11:39 PM
Anyway, back to investigating your hotspots...
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clown
😆 1
👍 1
🤡 1
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always
So if someone doesn't 100% support the denylist then they're a spoofer? I used to track a large cluster with more than 100 hotspots a month ago, and now it has been split into many many small wallets, each wallet has 3-8 hotspots, there are many similar clusters, detecting such a huge work how can just by people post issues on github and review one by one by helium team? That's why I suggest to have an automatic mechanism to do that which should run automatically every day or every week.
captainhindsight 02/04/2022 11:55 PM
No. I asked you if you are a spoofer. Are you a spoofer? There's no need to track wallets to identify spoofers. Identifying them is actually trivial - it must be , if I can do so in a few minutes with a few clicks. I don't understand why you feel it would be better to replace intelligent humans who will carefully check and verify each submission as a group, with some computer algorithm with no human oversight for this sensitive and important task. Are you against the entire concept, or just think you know better how it should be implemented? (edited)
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Ivan.eth
Many people don't care if it's really a game behavior, but they are jealous of why other people's income is higher than mine. As a result, a large number of malicious blacklists have been generated. I saw a user in the blacklist asking to be removed and complaining that he spent a lot of time researching and improving the reward, but was actually blacklisted because of the high reward. This is really ironic. If human review can't distinguish correctly, and many people are treated unfairly, why does this mechanism exist?
captainhindsight 02/04/2022 11:58 PM
The selection process has nothing whatsoever to do with the level of earnings - so you needn't worry.
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Ivan.eth
HIP40 is an absurd decision. The Helium team is fair and just, but they were taken advantage of by a group of people with ulterior motives, making Helium hurt again.
captainhindsight 02/04/2022 11:59 PM
Incorrect in every regard.
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Ivan.eth
It seems that there are many unreasonable places in the mechanism of Helium itself. Then all kinds of chaos are normal. I understand .
captainhindsight 02/05/2022 12:00 AM
Are you a sock puppet?
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Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
🤡 1
07:28
Reason(s) Hello, this hotspot is very close to us and our income is decreasing, and we cannot reach its owner. a device that was unconsciously added without research. We request that this device be blocked.
facepalm 3
coolcry 1
07:28
😿
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Pendraloth
Reason(s) Hello, this hotspot is very close to us and our income is decreasing, and we cannot reach its owner. a device that was unconsciously added without research. We request that this device be blocked.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/05/2022 7:39 AM
You already linked the issues of the deny list, this is also the place where you post addition and removal requests
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Pendraloth
Reason(s) Hello, this hotspot is very close to us and our income is decreasing, and we cannot reach its owner. a device that was unconsciously added without research. We request that this device be blocked.
yea, helium wont even look at that
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Dejavu
yea, helium wont even look at that
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/05/2022 8:20 AM
Again, they can't look into things without them being reported on github
👍 1
08:21
We can't just go around and hammer anything that smells fishy (edited)
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captainhindsight
No. I asked you if you are a spoofer. Are you a spoofer? There's no need to track wallets to identify spoofers. Identifying them is actually trivial - it must be , if I can do so in a few minutes with a few clicks. I don't understand why you feel it would be better to replace intelligent humans who will carefully check and verify each submission as a group, with some computer algorithm with no human oversight for this sensitive and important task. Are you against the entire concept, or just think you know better how it should be implemented? (edited)
First, I'm not a spoofer. If you can identify cheater in a few minutes with a few clicks why do you still need intelligent humans check and verify? And if you don't care about labor costs, if you don't care about something more important to be solved such as issue on light hotspot transition being delayed. YES, I agree with you. (edited)
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always
First, I'm not a spoofer. If you can identify cheater in a few minutes with a few clicks why do you still need intelligent humans check and verify? And if you don't care about labor costs, if you don't care about something more important to be solved such as issue on light hotspot transition being delayed. YES, I agree with you. (edited)
captainhindsight 02/05/2022 9:59 AM
I'm very glad to learn that you're not a spoofer. I'm going to assume that you are yet to realise the absurdity of your argument. Being an intelligent human grants me the ability to detect spoofers accurately with ease. Building an algorithm or AI to perform the same task is possible - but the same people here suggesting this HIP is a witch hunt would refuse to accept it. And so we need intelligent humans to collectively verify spoofer identity beyond doubt, so that there's no opportunity for dissatisfied malcontents to demand rejection (probably for their own nefarious purposes). This is not the Herculean task you appear determined to portray it as. (edited)
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captainhindsight
I'm very glad to learn that you're not a spoofer. I'm going to assume that you are yet to realise the absurdity of your argument. Being an intelligent human grants me the ability to detect spoofers accurately with ease. Building an algorithm or AI to perform the same task is possible - but the same people here suggesting this HIP is a witch hunt would refuse to accept it. And so we need intelligent humans to collectively verify spoofer identity beyond doubt, so that there's no opportunity for dissatisfied malcontents to demand rejection (probably for their own nefarious purposes). This is not the Herculean task you appear determined to portray it as. (edited)
Just like with POC we have a SNR for reporting hotspots, there is definite signal of intelligent humans reporting hotspots for obvious cheating, but there is also noise of idiots reporting hotspots too close to them "stealing their coins" (edited)
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waveform
Just like with POC we have a SNR for reporting hotspots, there is definite signal of intelligent humans reporting hotspots for obvious cheating, but there is also noise of idiots reporting hotspots too close to them "stealing their coins" (edited)
captainhindsight 02/05/2022 10:09 AM
Another reason why we need intelligent humans to reject the idiot noise - in all its forms 🙂
👍 1
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xXCHERUBIMXx 02/05/2022 12:27 PM
Can someone link the denylist? Want to make sure my miner didn't get added, it's acting up (edited)
12:29
I found it nvm..
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xXCHERUBIMXx
Can someone link the denylist? Want to make sure my miner didn't get added, it's acting up (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/05/2022 12:38 PM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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xXCHERUBIMXx
Can someone link the denylist? Want to make sure my miner didn't get added, it's acting up (edited)
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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is there any simple way of getting of the denylist?
02:01
im on the deny list for no reason. it makes no sense.
02:01
im not cheating or anything.
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Shaz
im not cheating or anything.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 2:56 AM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
02:56
Add a new issue
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zzeddd
read back just a few posts(or type in the address in the search bar) and then look at his current earnings... (edited)
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zzeddd
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 5:05 AM
It already is, check the earnings
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Ah I see, sorry and thanks
05:26
The denylist works pretty quick then 👍
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zzeddd
Ah I see, sorry and thanks
I did the PR yesterday at 20.00 CET and today it was already approved and deployed. So indeed, fast action
👍 4
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derek
I did the PR yesterday at 20.00 CET and today it was already approved and deployed. So indeed, fast action
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/06/2022 5:38 AM
On a weekend, not to forget (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 6:37 AM
it depends what make the challenger is and if they support the deny list (the beacons challenger)
06:37
so some may slip through
06:37
but as you see a majority is blocked
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it depends what make the challenger is and if they support the deny list (the beacons challenger)
captainhindsight 02/06/2022 7:15 AM
So the Pisces miners that only witness each other remain unaffected? Or are they blocked at validator level?
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captainhindsight
So the Pisces miners that only witness each other remain unaffected? Or are they blocked at validator level?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 7:16 AM
well, it depends if the challenger has a deny list right?
07:16
so the challenger cant be controlled right? so its if the challenger is from a maker that supports the deny list
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Couldn't we make the denylist mandatory until HIP40 is implemented? I hate to see money go to those idiots even if it's just 0,5$ / day / miner.
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derek
I did the PR yesterday at 20.00 CET and today it was already approved and deployed. So indeed, fast action
Appreciated!
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impuls
Couldn't we make the denylist mandatory until HIP40 is implemented? I hate to see money go to those idiots even if it's just 0,5$ / day / miner.
True. Or kick the miners that don't support the denylist off the network
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impuls
Couldn't we make the denylist mandatory until HIP40 is implemented? I hate to see money go to those idiots even if it's just 0,5$ / day / miner.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 8:11 AM
cant force manufacturers to use it, but most have
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/06/2022 8:21 AM
Scary thought, we shouldn't based it on who agrees with the denylist and who does not.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
cant force manufacturers to use it, but most have
Well you can. Make it a (mandatory) network software update
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
This happens already. High number of Pisces, Cotx and others used for cheating
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zzeddd
Well you can. Make it a (mandatory) network software update
You can’t. How do you know what is actually running on your hotspot? There is no way to enforce this
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capcom
You can’t. How do you know what is actually running on your hotspot? There is no way to enforce this
Isn't the deny list support part of the software rolled out by the hardware vendors?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
cant force manufacturers to use it, but most have
Can't force them directly of course, but just put every miner not supporting the denylist on the denylist. Assume that would help those vendirs to make the right decusion.
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capcom
You can’t. How do you know what is actually running on your hotspot? There is no way to enforce this
The running software version can be found via the (local) dashboards / tools provided by the miner vendor
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The miner software isn’t signed though, and vendors often modify pieces of it for their specific hardware (configuration files for example)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
so the challenger cant be controlled right? so its if the challenger is from a maker that supports the deny list
captainhindsight 02/06/2022 9:55 AM
So the denylist does nothing about the thousands of Pisces spoofers?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 9:56 AM
Not saying that
09:56
I'm saying the challenger who challenges the beaconer
09:56
Has to have the deny list
09:56
A rak could be targeting a piscies for example
09:57
The rak would drop any witness receipts from denylist hotspots reporting
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It’s sort of the beauty of the system, the cheater has no way to control it
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captainhindsight 02/06/2022 9:59 AM
When they are all in a shed together and only ever witness each other, they can carry on completely unaffected by the denylist
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 9:59 AM
They can't, the challenger won't be in the shed
09:59
Remember challenges are done over the internet
09:59
The challenger asks a hotspot to beacon
10:00
And the witnesses report to the challenger
10:00
The challenger then checks them again the deny list and drops
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They can't, the challenger won't be in the shed
captainhindsight 02/06/2022 10:00 AM
The ones I've seen are definitely beaconing and witnessing. I'll have to check if they are challenging too
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 10:01 AM
No your still mixing it up lol
10:01
Challenger is say in the UK right
10:01
It then says I'm going to pick this challengee to beacon
10:01
That challenger could be a rak for example
10:01
Who use the deny list
10:01
When the hotspot beacons, the witnesses then report back to the challenger
10:02
At that point the challenger (not the hotspot that beaconed) checks them against the deny list
10:03
They can't control who challenges their hotspots
10:03
And the odd one may get through, as it's from a make that doesn't support the deny list
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captainhindsight
When they are all in a shed together and only ever witness each other, they can carry on completely unaffected by the denylist
The beacons come from the “challenger”. As long as the challenger has the deny list, then the shed full of cheaters can’t do anything
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captainhindsight 02/06/2022 10:05 AM
Ok - I think I get it now. It would have to be a Pisces miner, challenging another Pisces miner - over Internet - for the challenge > beacon > witness > receipt acceptance process to generate rewards, yes?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 10:05 AM
We got there partyparrot
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captainhindsight 02/06/2022 10:06 AM
Thanks for bearing with me guys 🙏
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 10:06 AM
Np lol
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That the cheater has an element they don’t control is key to the whole process
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 10:06 AM
It's a tad confusing but that's why it works, the hackers can't control the challenger
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captainhindsight 02/06/2022 10:06 AM
Whoop! 🤗
10:11
Own and earn royalties from color on the Ethereum blockchain.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 10:22 AM
I will get you the colour lol
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I really think the makers should respect the communities vote and implement the denylist or is there are technical reason they can't do that with reasonable effort?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 10:56 AM
theres no good reason for sure, some have mentioned they fear of legal ramifications from memory (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 12:55 PM
Perhaps a dumb question... Why wasn't the blocking of the transaction put on the validator side of things rather than leaving it up to the manufacturer?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 12:58 PM
yeah thats hip40
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12:58
the current denylist is on the challenger
12:58
hip40 requires the validator code to change, to not penalise validators for rejecting transactions
12:58
so it couldn't be done right now
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
hip40 requires the validator code to change, to not penalise validators for rejecting transactions
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 12:59 PM
Ah right. So the current list being on the manufacturers was just the quickest solution to get it out there sooner.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:00 PM
yeah now its not hidden in releases they have to enable it , was the quickest way
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 1:07 PM
So where are we right now on hip40? What needs to be finished so we can get this to a vote? 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:07 PM
meeting this week to copy over joeys draft into hip40
13:08
then its close to being ready for vote
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captainhindsight 02/06/2022 1:39 PM
Looks well thought through, and transparent 👍
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 1:49 PM
Lol that pic 😆
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 1:51 PM
Looks good. One thing I see missing that I know people are going to ask (again), is how to get off a list. They're going to want very clear steps listed for that process. There is only the concept of a pipeline here without any details.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Looks good. One thing I see missing that I know people are going to ask (again), is how to get off a list. They're going to want very clear steps listed for that process. There is only the concept of a pipeline here without any details.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:51 PM
That isn't and won't be defined, that's totally up to the list maker
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HIP40 is not about a single list but more about the framework right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:52 PM
Would a list get used without a defined removal process? I'd hope not
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I really like the transparency of it, especially compared to the ‘drop and forget’ that is currently done by the denylist.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That isn't and won't be defined, that's totally up to the list maker
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 1:53 PM
That sounds... messy. There needs to be a standardized process.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That sounds... messy. There needs to be a standardized process.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:55 PM
There isn't there's advised methods
13:55
And hopefully tooling
13:55
To make it easier to run / manage a list but that's more guidelines
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There isn't there's advised methods
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 1:57 PM
Hmm... Didn't see that in the doc
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:58 PM
Yeah it's education after
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 1:58 PM
Ah ok
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:58 PM
Hip40 is designing the mechanism
13:58
The idea is if we want this to work well, it's going to need a lot of education and support to keep it on the right track imo
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13:59
There is talk of a list aggregateor to make it easier (grant would be funded by Dewi)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 1:59 PM
Just saying, this is going to be one of the most asked questions, and if there is no solid clear answer, this won't pass. 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/06/2022 1:59 PM
I also would like to see tooling to manage lists and support removal requests, make it easier to use the software than not
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The current denylist passed and that’s basically a ‘do whatever you want’ card… HIP40 is a thousand times better in so many areas, why would it not pass?
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groot
The current denylist passed and that’s basically a ‘do whatever you want’ card… HIP40 is a thousand times better in so many areas, why would it not pass?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 2:04 PM
Because of fear and self-interest. People will fear being put on a list incorrectly with no clear method to get off the lists. It also reads as "guilty until proven innocent".
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because of fear and self-interest. People will fear being put on a list incorrectly with no clear method to get off the lists. It also reads as "guilty until proven innocent".
Or it will pass because people will think "sweet now I can make lists with as many hotspots as possible to hopefully get them off the network legit or not and increase my own rewards". This shouldn't happen..... but it will happen. At the end of the day when rewards are limited it's a competition plain and simple. You win by having an edge over the other guy and people will do whatever they can to sabotage others if it means they can benefit from it.
18:08
It is already beginning if you look at the issues on github. Some of the posts are pretty ridiculous.
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Parylizer
It is already beginning if you look at the issues on github. Some of the posts are pretty ridiculous.
A lot of really good ones though too
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Parylizer
Or it will pass because people will think "sweet now I can make lists with as many hotspots as possible to hopefully get them off the network legit or not and increase my own rewards". This shouldn't happen..... but it will happen. At the end of the day when rewards are limited it's a competition plain and simple. You win by having an edge over the other guy and people will do whatever they can to sabotage others if it means they can benefit from it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 7:14 PM
Self interest wins out over malice. Human nature. There are too many checks to keep that from being a thing.
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Parylizer
It is already beginning if you look at the issues on github. Some of the posts are pretty ridiculous.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 7:15 PM
Those ridiculous addition requests are usually due to simple lack of knowledge.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Self interest wins out over malice. Human nature. There are too many checks to keep that from being a thing.
I think you misunderstood. I was on your side lol. In this case self interest and malice are the same thing. Or play off each other.
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Parylizer
I think you misunderstood. I was on your side lol. In this case self interest and malice are the same thing. Or play off each other.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/06/2022 8:37 PM
oh.. lol Guess i misread your post. 😄
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Parylizer
It is already beginning if you look at the issues on github. Some of the posts are pretty ridiculous.
Exactly, I have also saw many ehh absurd posts.
21:28
Also, any miner that won higher rewards can be seen as a spoofer in someone‘s eyes. What a pity. But we have accepted that every coin has two sides.
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Looking at hotspots in China on Helium Explorer and running some basic SQL analysis... most hotspots I look at seem fake...
01:09
I mean honestly... https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/hex/883091031dfffff zoom out a bit... WTF??
01:13
Sure 99 hotspots, same maker, only talking to each other.
01:17
Detecting those idiot gamers needs o be automated seriously...
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impuls
I mean honestly... https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/hex/883091031dfffff zoom out a bit... WTF??
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 1:20 AM
😂 2
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impuls
Detecting those idiot gamers needs o be automated seriously...
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:33 AM
It absolutely doesn't. Bans need to stick - so should be properly vetted.
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captainhindsight
It absolutely doesn't. Bans need to stick - so should be properly vetted.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 3:36 AM
It's going to end up a mix (as it is now). Some things can be caught by automation, others will need humans. Each method playing to their strengths.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's going to end up a mix (as it is now). Some things can be caught by automation, others will need humans. Each method playing to their strengths.
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:38 AM
Sure. So long as nobody has to waste precious resource arguing the toss every five minutes
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/07/2022 3:38 AM
I fully expect some automatically generated lists
03:39
Its wether they are used tho that's the question
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captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:40 AM
If any kindly person has a mapper to donate I'll get some cast iron data 🙏 I see gaps appearing in Southport and even in Manchester. I hope they are disappearing spoofers and it's not as a result of the blockchain halt
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captainhindsight
If any kindly person has a mapper to donate I'll get some cast iron data 🙏 I see gaps appearing in Southport and even in Manchester. I hope they are disappearing spoofers and it's not as a result of the blockchain halt
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 3:44 AM
Unfortunately, until we have secure mappers, that doesn't really help 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Unfortunately, until we have secure mappers, that doesn't really help 🙂
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:45 AM
Secure = completely trustworthy, somehow?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/07/2022 3:45 AM
Yeah basically
03:45
Some root of trust in the device
03:45
And the data it gives
03:46
Right now mappers is an open endpoint and fake data can be submitted
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captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:46 AM
So there's little point me buying a glamos right now?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/07/2022 3:46 AM
I have one, great for getting data
03:47
And contributing to mappers
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captainhindsight
It absolutely doesn't. Bans need to stick - so should be properly vetted.
There are obvious enough cases (like a perfectly shaped cluster of miners of a single maker observing each other only) that should result in a ban automatically. Requesting removal must be an option of course.
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captainhindsight
So there's little point me buying a glamos right now?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 3:48 AM
I hear they're also good for finding locations that need more installs.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I hear they're also good for finding locations that need more installs.
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:50 AM
I can do that with my eyes alone. Doesn't help with actually being able to fund or deal with location occupants. I'm not quite ready to turn up on doorsteps out of the blue 😄
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captainhindsight
I can do that with my eyes alone. Doesn't help with actually being able to fund or deal with location occupants. I'm not quite ready to turn up on doorsteps out of the blue 😄
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/07/2022 3:50 AM
You could totally map them
03:50
Submit a addition request to the denylist (edited)
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captainhindsight
I can do that with my eyes alone. Doesn't help with actually being able to fund or deal with location occupants. I'm not quite ready to turn up on doorsteps out of the blue 😄
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 3:51 AM
Your eyes can see RF coverage? Sweet! 😄
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your eyes can see RF coverage? Sweet! 😄
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:53 AM
My school physics teacher used to tell the story of his mother in law being able to see the IR beams from remote controls after having the lenses in her eyes replaced with manmade ones
🤣 1
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captainhindsight
My school physics teacher used to tell the story of his mother in law being able to see the IR beams from remote controls after having the lenses in her eyes replaced with manmade ones
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 3:58 AM
But the receptors...
03:58
03:58
lol
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captainhindsight 02/07/2022 3:59 AM
Phase shift?
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captainhindsight
Phase shift?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 4:07 AM
If the lens could shift the frequency of light from IR to visible wavelengths, what would it do to visible light? 😉 She'd be basically blind. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If the lens could shift the frequency of light from IR to visible wavelengths, what would it do to visible light? 😉 She'd be basically blind. 🙂
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 4:29 AM
Aw - you're just spoiling the story now 😭
04:30
Maybe it was a test - see if the class had any child genii?
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captainhindsight
Aw - you're just spoiling the story now 😭
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 4:30 AM
Sorry 😄
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My thermal camera can see a lot still
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 4:32 AM
ok ok , so she'd have Predator vision. lol
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Or maybe, just maybe, in remote wasn't IR, but near-IR and it was there all along but she didn' notice it before? Just maybe...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If the lens could shift the frequency of light from IR to visible wavelengths, what would it do to visible light? 😉 She'd be basically blind. 🙂
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 10:24 AM
Bees can see UV. They aren't blind to 'visible' light
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captainhindsight
Bees can see UV. They aren't blind to 'visible' light
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 11:06 AM
Because they see both
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because they see both
captainhindsight 02/07/2022 11:34 AM
From spotting galaxies millions of light years away to perceiving invisible colours, Adam Hadhazy explains why your eyes can do incredible things.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/07/2022 12:41 PM
Anyway, moot point. Eye lens don't shift frequencies like that anyway. 🙂
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
thank u for reminding me
20:50
we can't discuss miner's rewards here?
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coolcry okay I'll close my month and be a silent listener~~
21:00
wish all lucky
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can't agree more 😈 right , just in a respect and reasonable way
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I bought 9 Panther x2 devices and 10 hNT tokens offline. I actually deployed them next to the windows of my friends' homes according to the official requirements. I even extended the antennas of some machines outside the windows. As a result, I found that they were on the rejection list. I don't know what to do. I can't contact the seller and ask for official help. Thank you
22:51
Can the official tell me the specific solutions? I'm optimistic about the future development of hNT, but I don't know how to solve this problem
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Request removal here https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues and provide convinxing evidence each hotspot is deployed at a real location. To be honest I am unsure if a request to unblock a hotspot that has been used for "gaming" by the previous owner will be unblocked.
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Then the second-hand hot spot I bought won't work
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AKA
Then the second-hand hot spot I bought won't work
Not sure, maybe it will be removed if you proof it's not gaming anymore... but considering the list is super swamped I think it will take time to be reviewed.
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Can the official set up a reminder that the machine I just bought doesn't show a blacklist, so I still need to check the form myself
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Hi, I am a person who own more than 100 hotspots. Firstly, I admit that clustering with attenuators is not a good thing. Different regions have different views on the same thing. Just like in Islamic areas, alcohol is generally not allowed. Using attenuators is similar to locating more than 50 hotspots in a one-kilometer hexagon at the Los Angeles area ------ hurting the good hotspots (the one who location first). Helium is the People-Powered Networks, and I think it should unite all the People it could be united. This is a great company. Avoid generating too much e-waste. Just like a thief, you can't kill him for just stealing things. And it’s great that he became a good man. So, it will be great that helium set up a rule ——turning the machines in denylist into the good machine, and uniting all the power it could be united.
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funny, like 85% turn back in prison
02:26
only difference here is that hotspots change hands
02:27
a good example was here few days back, someone complaining of being on the list, that he bought form someone else..bla bla... he got caught laying and then he started transferring the hotspot few hours later (edited)
02:27
really good this thing with e-waste, do we get the animal lovers here too? (edited)
02:28
a dead hotspot can be reused as something else
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You are right, that is not easy! Easy thing is not a great thing!
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berton
Hi, I am a person who own more than 100 hotspots. Firstly, I admit that clustering with attenuators is not a good thing. Different regions have different views on the same thing. Just like in Islamic areas, alcohol is generally not allowed. Using attenuators is similar to locating more than 50 hotspots in a one-kilometer hexagon at the Los Angeles area ------ hurting the good hotspots (the one who location first). Helium is the People-Powered Networks, and I think it should unite all the People it could be united. This is a great company. Avoid generating too much e-waste. Just like a thief, you can't kill him for just stealing things. And it’s great that he became a good man. So, it will be great that helium set up a rule ——turning the machines in denylist into the good machine, and uniting all the power it could be united.
Using attenuators means faking coverage / redundancy and by doing so claiming a bigger piece of the pie than you deserve. That's stealing from the whole community and it should be penalized accordingly. Adding too many hotspots to a hex will at least provide redundancy. Benefit for the network is minimal, but rewards will match that (hopefully).
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04:09
Guess clear rules would be great: Can a proven gaming hotspot be removed from the denylist after transfer if there is proof it has been installed a a real location?
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If there are no rules, there is no circle, and if you enter the blacklist, you can't kill it with one stick. Why are the first batch of blacklist machines released? There must be a standard. https://github.com/helium/denylist Deleted and rejected will not be dealt with, no one to deal with the problem? Skilled people are still earning HNT! Xiaobai died on the beach? How to get more people's consensus?
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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impuls
Guess clear rules would be great: Can a proven gaming hotspot be removed from the denylist after transfer if there is proof it has been installed a a real location?
davidzc "the Gentleman" 02/08/2022 4:35 AM
there you go. let's triple sell the item. and then it's not stolen.. like they do in real life. don't buy fake dollars and expect the bank to give you real dollars because you bought fake ones
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04:38
alway's check second hand miners, there's also a scam where the pre-install cheating software and resell the miner.. so be carefull buying second hand miners !
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Does the rapid growth of devices have nothing to do with cheating? I have to be logical, I would rather kill 1000 by mistake and don't let 1 go
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 5:17 AM
That's why we have the denylist
05:17
And hip40 to replace it
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Already in real deployment, rent fee, internet fee, a bit too fast to support the investment in helium
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/08/2022 5:20 AM
Even with the denylist, there will always be cheaters
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 5:21 AM
We have a meeting Wednesday to update the hip, hopefully the vote can go up after that
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The devil is one foot tall and the Tao is one zhang tall. How to resolve it in a better way, to correct the evil and return to the righteous, all kinds of oil can't afford it, isn't it forcing people to go the wrong way?
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If the miner in the denylist get changed and have set up for real, how can those miners be removed from the denylist? Is there a mechanism to do so?
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It's just my opinion, the equipment bought by others is also bought with money, and it is also a contribution
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OnionBro
If the miner in the denylist get changed and have set up for real, how can those miners be removed from the denylist? Is there a mechanism to do so?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 6:02 AM
They can put in a removal request
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They can put in a removal request
Then I can buy some miners in black list with very low price and set them up in real and make a fortune!
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@cm Your thinking is that you want the horse to run, and you want the horse not to eat grass
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To the moon!
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OnionBro
Then I can buy some miners in black list with very low price and set them up in real and make a fortune!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 6:06 AM
I know a guy trying to do just that
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Thanks bro!coolcry
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Hello, With the help of the miner owners in Greece, we have created lists of the two biggest fake clusters. https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/348 https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/392 The question is what is happening after this? Will these be reviewed? Thank you! /Michail
Hotspot b58 Addresses 114tiFyh3zgDmQX66DXFdddRTPFVxVadyLTb4VqcTSiLuDJZVDu 112gydiCiiZfJ1XkP3xCtpyHUCss7by8Qt5tC2MzG9XGp13GU7Dm 11qKNtCG2DmGPjJCMSR6z2Uaw5ev5YPYg9JMEf1ri9pDLHFfsJv 112AWADukptNvbiDbb...
Hotspot b58 Addresses 112im7HWPuxJjSdyWiJekkBUmpPDCdy3G9iE7pEB1xrVE2CQssSH 11DUcNSSH154L9BoEzBkFSYKNAAeVbQdDHNNMtzFkUQKA9zu6fB 116xS2H5Tfndied8Hhot7LbJZALosjsu9pd3PRKPx1A2uqH8gJC 112MS1nUMRjyAPbp3G...
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matmanmining 02/08/2022 6:12 AM
Where should suspicious hotspot clusters be reported?
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matmanmining
Where should suspicious hotspot clusters be reported?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/08/2022 6:14 AM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
matmanmining 02/08/2022 6:14 AM
Need to get a github account, then add issue?
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matmanmining
Need to get a github account, then add issue?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/08/2022 6:15 AM
Ayup
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I know a guy trying to do just that
Only works because some makers refuse to implement the denylist. Not sure why we accept that, but HIP-40 will demonetize them more or less completely I guess.
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impuls
Only works because some makers refuse to implement the denylist. Not sure why we accept that, but HIP-40 will demonetize them more or less completely I guess.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 9:06 AM
yep, puts the denylist on validators
09:06
doesn't matter what makers do then
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DigitalHuevos🥚 02/08/2022 9:42 AM
Let's get this vote going!
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There are many spoofing Pisces miners in my area in the deny list so they are blocked but still still earning a bit and they are online which effect the rewards scale. I believe that blocked hotspots should go offline somehow
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impuls
Only works because some makers refuse to implement the denylist. Not sure why we accept that, but HIP-40 will demonetize them more or less completely I guess.
Which makers did not yet implement the deny list?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 11:47 AM
panther x, nebra, deepr (edited)
11:47
might be a few smaller ones too
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meazer
There are many spoofing Pisces miners in my area in the deny list so they are blocked but still still earning a bit and they are online which effect the rewards scale. I believe that blocked hotspots should go offline somehow
Exactly same problem in my hex. If those miners would not be receiving any beacons they would be considered not interactive and not considered in reward scaling, unfortunately there are still a few beacons per day.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
panther x, nebra, deepr (edited)
I hope there will be a penalty mechanism for those miner producers. They should support all network updates
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
panther x, nebra, deepr (edited)
Heltec did include the list since the start: ~/miner_data# ls blockchain.db blockchain_swarm denylist heltec-snap ledger.db log miner_poc_statem.state saved-snaps snap state_channels.db Where does this silly myth come from... 🙂 (edited)
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zzeddd
I hope there will be a penalty mechanism for those miner producers. They should support all network updates
With a decentralized network, that is tough to enforce, and makes it not-decentralized.
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zzeddd
I hope there will be a penalty mechanism for those miner producers. They should support all network updates
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 12:38 PM
as cap said previously in here
12:38
theres no way to force usage of it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 12:49 PM
and this one
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
theres no way to force usage of it
Announce miners challenging others on the denylist will be added to the denylust automatically. I bet every maker will add support immediately. (edited)
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impuls
Announce miners challenging others on the denylist will be added to the denylust automatically. I bet every maker will add support immediately. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:01 PM
Again, there is no way to tell if they use it or not
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Had to edit.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:02 PM
Yeah that won't happen
14:02
Can't control who you challenge
14:02
That could wipe out half the network
14:02
Or all of it lol
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Ok, but what us the denylist blocking then?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:03 PM
Hotspots?
14:03
It drops witness receipts
14:03
From denied users
14:03
If the maker of the challenger uses the deny list
14:03
Right now a few don't
14:03
So some gets through
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Ok great. So if a hotspot is not dropping witness receipts from denied hotspots => Autoban.
14:05
Evidence is on the blockchain...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:05 PM
Again that's not a good thing to do
14:05
You could end up banning the whole network
14:05
You can't control who you challenge
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You said the deny list controls which witness receipts are dropped. So isn't recording a witness receipt for a denied hotspot evidence the challenger is not using the denylist? (edited)
14:12
All that being said: I would prefer HIP40 every time...
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impuls
You said the deny list controls which witness receipts are dropped. So isn't recording a witness receipt for a denied hotspot evidence the challenger is not using the denylist? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:13 PM
The hotspot owner doesn't have a choice in the software the miner gets from the manufacturer
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The hotspot owner doesn't have a choice in the software the miner gets from the manufacturer
Any manufacturer planning to stay in business would comply and adjust the software.
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impuls
You said the deny list controls which witness receipts are dropped. So isn't recording a witness receipt for a denied hotspot evidence the challenger is not using the denylist? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:17 PM
It doesn't record it
14:17
It just drops it silently
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It just drops it silently
Yeah, but it doesn't record it silently if there is no deny list... (edited)
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impuls
Any manufacturer planning to stay in business would comply and adjust the software.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:19 PM
So screw the 90% to stop the 10%?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:19 PM
If they havnt implemented it yeah it just let's it through
14:20
There's no reporting of denied witnesses
14:20
It checks the address against the deny list and just ignores it basically
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So screw the 90% to stop the 10%?
I assumed 100% of manufacturers in fact want to stay in business, I could be wrong...
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impuls
I assumed 100% of manufacturers in fact want to stay in business, I could be wrong...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:21 PM
What about the honest end users? Just tell them "too bad"?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What about the honest end users? Just tell them "too bad"?
As said before: I assume All manufacturers would comply because they want to stay in business.
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impuls
As said before: I assume All manufacturers would comply because they want to stay in business.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:23 PM
You're not addressing the question. What about the end users that already have the hardware?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If they havnt implemented it yeah it just let's it through
but isn't letting it through the evidence the denylist us not used?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're not addressing the question. What about the end users that already have the hardware?
Supporting the denylist does not require a hardware change.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:25 PM
But adding them to the deny list for letting it through is banning innocent users
14:25
You can't control who you challenge
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impuls
Supporting the denylist does not require a hardware change.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:26 PM
It requires a software update. The end user has no control over that. So you're saying to those users "Sorry, the manufacturer didn't update yet, so your miner is a brick". You're holding the end user hostage. Not ok.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You can't control who you challenge
Threatening to demonetization users of all manufacturers that not comply will ensure those manufacturers comply.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:27 PM
And ban most of the network
14:27
As they randomly challenge hotspots near by
14:27
They might only do it once
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impuls
Threatening to demonetization users of all manufacturers that not comply will ensure those manufacturers comply.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:27 PM
You can't use people as hostages.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:27 PM
And your saying ban them
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
And ban most of the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:28 PM
Well... the part of the network that isn't using the denylist yet.
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14:28
Granted, not a small amount based on that list of makers
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So if some manufacturer does build in some cheating mechanism we have to be cool with thsg too as there could be innocent users?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:29 PM
That's different
14:29
If a manufacturer did add code
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impuls
So if some manufacturer does build in some cheating mechanism we have to be cool with thsg too as there could be innocent users?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:29 PM
No, you stop the manufacturer from onboarding more hotspots. It's been done before.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:30 PM
They should all be added
14:30
Again, a hotspot in the us 99.99% of the time could challenge non denylist hotspots
14:30
Then once
14:30
Hit one near by and a denylist hotspot sends a witness receipt (edited)
14:30
And your saying ban them
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Again, a hotspot in the us 99.99% of the time could challenge non denylist hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:31 PM
i don't think that's what they're saying. They're saying ban any hotspot that is not using the denylist until the manufacturer updates the software.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
And your saying ban them
No, I am saying ban them when they record a witness for a denied hotspots proofing the denylist is not used.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:32 PM
Still not ok though
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:32 PM
Yeah that won't be a thing ever lol
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impuls
No, I am saying ban them when they record a witness for a denied hotspots proofing the denylist is not used.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 2:33 PM
You can't ban innocent users.
👆 2
14:33
Helium/Dewi/Moc/etc will never do that, and the community will never pass that vote.
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There might be ways to make this acceptable, e.g. not permanently banning, having a long enough grace period... Anyways let's forget about it and focus on HIP40.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 2:54 PM
Nebra will likely start using it soon
14:54
Then it's just a few of the smaller ones
14:55
And we had a meeting today re hip40
14:55
New update to the hip really soon
14:55
And we can get the vote going piratepartyparrot
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io any idea if there is a new ban list ?
15:30
afraid all my hs died 2-3 hours ago 20 of them at the moment
😮 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 3:31 PM
Havnt checked it but it's on git
15:31
Not sure if any additions were done
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could u link me please ?
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nope not on the list
15:32
could i pm u
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 3:32 PM
I'm not support bud
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but ur more experienced maybe u know something or see something i dont 😄
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/08/2022 3:33 PM
It's late here
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sorry sir
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's late here
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/08/2022 4:22 PM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
New update to the hip really soon
i can't wait.
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Is there a way to check the denylist? Maybe I just can’t find it
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apps like hotspotty use the current helium denylist in their visualization (edited)
19:42
but a hip 40 denylist would be something that's validator specific.
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@AyeRonichttps://github.com/helium/denylist blacklist is displayed here
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Gracias!
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Wow~~ Spanish
🤨 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
cant force manufacturers to use it, but most have
If you can’t force manufacturers to use list, why was the list forced apon everyone when it was done secretly? I’m confused!
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HitmakerAP
If you can’t force manufacturers to use list, why was the list forced apon everyone when it was done secretly? I’m confused!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 3:41 AM
They pulled from a docker image that had it in (that they didn't know had it)
03:41
Now , they have to enable it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 4:03 AM
nebra have put the deny list in
04:03
i think we only have the really small makers now not using it (edited)
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But did Pisces implement it?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 6:57 AM
not sure, that i dont know
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They pulled from a docker image that had it in (that they didn't know had it)
cant they do it again ?
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cryptoz
cant they do it again ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:33 AM
no
07:33
fyi nebra now have the denylist/its coming any moment when the update goes out
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
fyi nebra now have the denylist/its coming any moment when the update goes out
it doesnt matter to be honest since its done by manufacturers and not validators which still leaves space for others not to add it. and with validators its also another problem where if not all validators add the list or add list from wherever they like with innocent people in it. the only good system i guess is forcing the validators to pick only from 2 sources and if they dont upgrade they get penalized.
07:41
what do u think ?
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cryptoz
it doesnt matter to be honest since its done by manufacturers and not validators which still leaves space for others not to add it. and with validators its also another problem where if not all validators add the list or add list from wherever they like with innocent people in it. the only good system i guess is forcing the validators to pick only from 2 sources and if they dont upgrade they get penalized.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:42 AM
You only need the CG members to have it
07:42
Not all validators
07:42
And even then I think it's only 30/43
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well anyone can enter CG 😄
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:42 AM
Yeah
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so its a must for them all to have it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:42 AM
But the chances of having a few that don't won't really effect it
07:42
As long as the majority support it
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we are 4k almost
07:44
and what if they dont add them
07:44
the validators ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:44 AM
Again it's only when they're called to CG that it matters
07:44
43 are picked, 30 would need to agree for a ban to go through
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we agree on this but if they dont add it
07:45
is this discussed with them
07:45
do they have a choice at the moment
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:45 AM
There's no penalty for using or not using a list with hip40
07:45
It's how the dencentalisation works, you can't force it or that's centralised
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so they can just not implement it or not update it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:45 AM
Also remember
07:46
Right now the stake pools have the majority
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neil you do know that some dont have the time to update it
07:46
yeah
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:46 AM
So it's one switch for them to enable it, and most will use it
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ow ok
07:46
will you have a Q&A live ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 7:49 AM
Sure , a big part of this hip is education
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can you arrange it after the latest update that you will have
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 8:10 AM
Yep great idea, I think a ama would be good on discord stages, I personally think many hips could benefit from this kind of education/feedback (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yep great idea, I think a ama would be good on discord stages, I personally think many hips could benefit from this kind of education/feedback (edited)
i think that a hip without a call or a live presentation shouldnt even pass. and no not in community call since those are short. some people dont understand or dont have the time to read all the details, but in a call it would be better short and strong. and people would come and listen or we can refer them to that video.
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cryptoz
i think that a hip without a call or a live presentation shouldnt even pass. and no not in community call since those are short. some people dont understand or dont have the time to read all the details, but in a call it would be better short and strong. and people would come and listen or we can refer them to that video.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/09/2022 8:13 AM
Yeah I agree the community calls to announce at a basic level
08:14
But education and questions totally would suit a ama style stage
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i can imagine you answering a lot of questions and giving a lot of info in a video call even if people type and you talk or people also able to talk in the call
08:15
just a suggestion.
08:15
this is hip is definitely one on of the top 5 hips so it needs more attention and time
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If I read the HIP correctly all validation in the consensus group need to agree to deny? I am to lazy to do the math now, but wouldn't that mean controlling let's say 2% of validators means you have > 50% probability to prevent your rewards are denied?
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Dejavu
But did Pisces implement it?
Alex(pisces miner) 02/09/2022 11:19 PM
We have used the blacklist mechanism in the last firmware update. February 2th.https://discord.com/channels/836238477057720350/871654901162336256/938402016307314710 (edited)
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Would be also great to clarify this >When action against a hotspot is decided on by the committee, the information should be made public and a notice period should be given publicly so hotspot owners can appeal.
23:33
I hope you are not implying that the community denylist will give evident cheaters a grace period during which they will continue earning.
23:35
I mean that approach would be completely useless for cases like the one hotspot in NL making 15 HNT / day.
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Also there are many (not very smart) cheaters that could be accurately tracked down automatically - evidence is on the blockchain. Example: Recording 1000 witnesses in 5 days and reporting only 4 different RSSI values. Don't think a committee would want to vote on each of them but instead agree on the algorithm being reliable (enough) to automatically ban.
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impuls
If I read the HIP correctly all validation in the consensus group need to agree to deny? I am to lazy to do the math now, but wouldn't that mean controlling let's say 2% of validators means you have > 50% probability to prevent your rewards are denied?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/10/2022 12:08 AM
No, just the majority of the CG has to agree (which I believe is 30 of the 43 in the CG), so someone would would have to have a lot more than 2% of validators to pull that off. Plus 2% of validators would be in excess of 400,000HNT for the staking. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, just the majority of the CG has to agree (which I believe is 30 of the 43 in the CG), so someone would would have to have a lot more than 2% of validators to pull that off. Plus 2% of validators would be in excess of 400,000HNT for the staking. 😉
Seems I misread the HIP then, was under the assumption consensus - 100% agreement is requried.
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Auto-ban needed ASAP... seriously... look at https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/511' I don't think those guys don't know what they are doing is 100% obvious. They rely on being able to make enough money before getting banned. If they were not to stupid to fix the RSSI values they would have already made enough money no need to worry about a single miner getting banned.
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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impuls
Seems I misread the HIP then, was under the assumption consensus - 100% agreement is requried.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/10/2022 12:38 AM
I don't think you misread. The hip still might have old incorrect info on it. We used to think all the cg had to agree.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/10/2022 4:00 AM
it does, new versions almost ready
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04:00
just missing some of the security stuff around list signing and it'll be published (edited)
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/10/2022 6:24 AM
If it fails to proof him not guilty, yes
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Alex(pisces miner)
We have used the blacklist mechanism in the last firmware update. February 2th.https://discord.com/channels/836238477057720350/871654901162336256/938402016307314710 (edited)
captainhindsight 02/10/2022 6:37 AM
Excellent news - thank you so much 🤝
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/10/2022 8:11 AM
I think that's most makers onboard now
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
If it fails to proof him not guilty, yes
He kind of admits the hotspot was cheating quote "It has become a real layout hotspot". Should proven cheat hotspots be allowed to return ever? I don't think so even if that sucks for whoever is buying a used hotspot which is on the denylist. Is there some agreement on that?
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impuls
He kind of admits the hotspot was cheating quote "It has become a real layout hotspot". Should proven cheat hotspots be allowed to return ever? I don't think so even if that sucks for whoever is buying a used hotspot which is on the denylist. Is there some agreement on that?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/10/2022 8:22 AM
They can request a removal, we would check their current and past rewards up until when the hotspot was transferred
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
They can request a removal, we would check their current and past rewards up until when the hotspot was transferred
So you basically can add back the hotspots if you not made a profit cheating and all it will cost you is the transfer fee and some lying? Hope I am wrong...
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impuls
So you basically can add back the hotspots if you not made a profit cheating and all it will cost you is the transfer fee and some lying? Hope I am wrong...
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/10/2022 9:56 AM
I mean, it would take maybe 1 day until it lands back here.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I mean, it would take maybe 1 day until it lands back here.
They can learn from their mistakes more or less for free. So I am pretty sure most would stay under the radar long enough to make profit.
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impuls
They can learn from their mistakes more or less for free. So I am pretty sure most would stay under the radar long enough to make profit.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/10/2022 11:03 AM
Well thats the downside of a decentralized network
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I am pretty sure we are only detecting the stupid and the greedy cheaters.
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impuls
I am pretty sure we are only detecting the stupid and the greedy cheaters.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/10/2022 11:03 AM
I'm not so sure about that, faking rssi ist not a feat to be taken lightly (edited)
11:03
If cheating was so easy, everyone would do it (edited)
💯 1
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Most don't even try... but calculating reasonable looking values should be doable, shouldn't it?
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impuls
Most don't even try... but calculating reasonable looking values should be doable, shouldn't it?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/10/2022 11:06 AM
Welp, if you figured it out, feel free to report yourself 😉
🤣 2
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Welp, if you figured it out, feel free to report yourself 😉
No way I am reporting my cash cow. Lambo in only 100 years assuming constant earnings 🥳
😆 1
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
If cheating was so easy, everyone would do it (edited)
Sure it's difficult if you don't know Linux, Docker, Coding, RF, ...
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So has hip-40 approved or just on the way?
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Ophelia
So has hip-40 approved or just on the way?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/10/2022 8:16 PM
BFGNeil should have an update very soon and then we'll be able to have a vote. The current denylist is a similar, but different thing that's in place until hip40 gets a vote.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
BFGNeil should have an update very soon and then we'll be able to have a vote. The current denylist is a similar, but different thing that's in place until hip40 gets a vote.
Thank so much, so if it means after hip-voting, denylist will remove from network ??
10k 1
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Ophelia
Thank so much, so if it means after hip-voting, denylist will remove from network ??
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/10/2022 8:23 PM
The current denylist would likely be incorporated into the HIP40 framework. The community voted to keep the denylist, so I don't see it going away.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The current denylist would likely be incorporated into the HIP40 framework. The community voted to keep the denylist, so I don't see it going away.
Appreciating for your patient and clear explanations.
👍 1
20:36
@Jun311 Maybe you should see this info
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newbie here, hotspot on denylist, no idea why and I think it might be some error from my side. how do I get in touch with helium and ask for assistance?
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ukfab
newbie here, hotspot on denylist, no idea why and I think it might be some error from my side. how do I get in touch with helium and ask for assistance?
Request removal at https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/new/choose providing proof it is a real deployment and you are not faking coverage.
GitHub is where people build software. More than 73 million people use GitHub to discover, fork, and contribute to over 200 million projects.
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impuls
Request removal at https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/new/choose providing proof it is a real deployment and you are not faking coverage.
thank you
02:28
i
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impuls
Request removal at https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/new/choose providing proof it is a real deployment and you are not faking coverage.
so if hotspot on denylist but still online and earning then what does that mean?
03:29
can one still do appeal?
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ukfab
can one still do appeal?
Yes, denylist does not stops rewards completely.
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impuls
Yes, denylist does not stops rewards completely.
so is it better to leave or appeal?
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ukfab
so is it better to leave or appeal?
Are you sure you are on the denylist? The denied hotspots in my are make around 0.03 HNT / day. As you considering to leave it I assume you are making more...
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But what about the Tricky Lava hotspot? It's on the deny list for about a week but still earning almost continuous 1HNT every 24h... https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11RRL4bJtV2JiHshjLw1mST7W9Git7mJ7pQsj2Vzj5YZHfcQqXA Will HIP40 deal with this better than the current deny list?
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It will
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Chris12
But what about the Tricky Lava hotspot? It's on the deny list for about a week but still earning almost continuous 1HNT every 24h... https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11RRL4bJtV2JiHshjLw1mST7W9Git7mJ7pQsj2Vzj5YZHfcQqXA Will HIP40 deal with this better than the current deny list?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 1:08 PM
The current denylist only works when the challenger is using the denylist. Not all makers have updated their hotspots with it.
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Chris12
But what about the Tricky Lava hotspot? It's on the deny list for about a week but still earning almost continuous 1HNT every 24h... https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11RRL4bJtV2JiHshjLw1mST7W9Git7mJ7pQsj2Vzj5YZHfcQqXA Will HIP40 deal with this better than the current deny list?
The average cheaters are in fact earning next to nothing, but Tricky Lava is collecting beacons from a lot of different locations so even the few challengers that do not use the denylist add up.
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impuls
The average cheaters are in fact earning next to nothing, but Tricky Lava is collecting beacons from a lot of different locations so even the few challengers that do not use the denylist add up.
some may even think there's a reason not all vendors are applying the denylist
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Lnz
some may even think there's a reason not all vendors are applying the denylist
Agree, unfortunately it seems forcing the makers to implement the denylist would always also impact honest customers of that maker. HIP-40 will fix this.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
As written before request removal at https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues and provide proof those hotspots are properly deployed and no longer used for cheating. Transferring a hotspot is will and should not automatically remove it from the denylist.
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Looking at the GitHub issues there are a lot of removal requests from users that bought cheating hotspots... @Pesho you mentioned they might be reactivated based on past and current earning, but is there some documentation or even agreement on what that means? Just an idea: Maybe a cheating hotspot should not be allowed back into the network until it's lifetime earnings do match earnings calculated based on the Current average HNT / day x Days since hotspot was added to the network. Doing the calculation based on current HNT / day will ensure that there is some penalty for cheating (lifetime earning will be below average) and it will ensure the calculation is very simple.
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impuls
Looking at the GitHub issues there are a lot of removal requests from users that bought cheating hotspots... @Pesho you mentioned they might be reactivated based on past and current earning, but is there some documentation or even agreement on what that means? Just an idea: Maybe a cheating hotspot should not be allowed back into the network until it's lifetime earnings do match earnings calculated based on the Current average HNT / day x Days since hotspot was added to the network. Doing the calculation based on current HNT / day will ensure that there is some penalty for cheating (lifetime earning will be below average) and it will ensure the calculation is very simple.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:12 PM
Unfortunately that still puts the penalty on the alleged new buyer. And based on the current reward rates and the amount these cheat hotspots made, it would likely be a very long time until the hotspot was not a brick.
23:14
Most buyers of 2nd hand hotspots have means in which they can get their money back from fraudulent sales. (CC chargeback, paypal refund, ebay, etc) It may sound a bit harsh, but it is not our responsibility to make every scammed user whole again.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:16 PM
If your machine has not cheated, then it should be easy to appeal, right? 🙂
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:31 PM
The people voted overwhelmingly for this.
23:32
97.25% Yes vote. Wow.. I forgot it was that high. 😮 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Unfortunately that still puts the penalty on the alleged new buyer. And based on the current reward rates and the amount these cheat hotspots made, it would likely be a very long time until the hotspot was not a brick.
Why do buyers that bought a denied hotspot deserve more protection than the ones losing money to scammers not sending anything (or other kinds of bricks)? (edited)
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:33 PM
Did you appeal in the github?
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impuls
Why do buyers that bought a denied hotspot deserve more protection than the ones losing money to scammers not sending anything (or other kinds of bricks)? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:34 PM
Sorry, some typos are making that hard to read. Could you edit please? 🙂
23:35
I'm not understanding what you were trying to say 🙂
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Indeed did not make sense before 😄
😄 1
23:35
Still doesn't 😄 (edited)
23:36
Now it does. (edited)
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23:39
Anyways: Maybe it would be better to just calculate accurate average earning and apply some well defined penalty. Doing the calculation based on the current average is just adding a random penalty which kind of does not make much sense I have to admit.
👍 1
23:39
Jesus... more typos than correct letters. Need a second coffee it seems.
❤️ 1
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impuls
Why do buyers that bought a denied hotspot deserve more protection than the ones losing money to scammers not sending anything (or other kinds of bricks)? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:40 PM
I'm saying they have the same protections as with any other purchase. They can get their money back.
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impuls
Anyways: Maybe it would be better to just calculate accurate average earning and apply some well defined penalty. Doing the calculation based on the current average is just adding a random penalty which kind of does not make much sense I have to admit.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:41 PM
Yeah, the penalty doesn't seem to work in my head. Best to either return the miner or be able to prove it's not with the original cheater.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm saying they have the same protections as with any other purchase. They can get their money back.
So you would argue to not let them get back? I honestly would prefer that to allowing them back without any kind of penalty and undefined rules...
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impuls
So you would argue to not let them get back? I honestly would prefer that to allowing them back without any kind of penalty and undefined rules...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:44 PM
Yeah, I don't have a good bar for "what is proof", but I could see a 2 strikes, you're out policy. If a "new buyer" get off the list and then the hotspot starts cheating again, perm denylist on that hotspot. (edited)
23:45
Seems fair since right now we don't have the "this hotspot is denylisted" on the app yet.
23:45
But people should also do their dang homework. So some sort of middle ground... 🙂
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I would also set the bar that the hotspot can't be reactivated before it's earnings reached network average (calculated accurately).
23:47
Without penalty you basically´could cheat once without any consequences.
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impuls
I would also set the bar that the hotspot can't be reactivated before it's earnings reached network average (calculated accurately).
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:49 PM
That would be far too harsh a penalty for an innocent new buyer.
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impuls
Without penalty you basically´could cheat once without any consequences.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/11/2022 11:49 PM
Only if you could prove the hotspot was not with the original cheater 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Only if you could prove the hotspot was not with the original cheater 😉
Problem is you can't unless the seller is some trusted 3rd party...
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impuls
Problem is you can't unless the seller is some trusted 3rd party...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:00 AM
I can only assume the reviewers have their ways. I'm not fully up on what methods/benchmarks they use. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I can only assume the reviewers have their ways. I'm not fully up on what methods/benchmarks they use. 🙂
I don't think you can distinguish a cheater that stopped cheating and transferred and eventually relocated the hotspot and a honest new buyer based on any kind of benchmarks.
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impuls
I don't think you can distinguish a cheater that stopped cheating and transferred and eventually relocated the hotspot and a honest new buyer based on any kind of benchmarks.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:04 AM
Maybe, maybe not. I don't know 🙂
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Probably a too harsh penalty would not be fair to establish now without making it easier for buyers to see / understand, but that does not mean this should not be fixed.
👍 1
00:06
If we can ensure visibility of a hotspot being denied and also indicate under which conditions (e.g. when) it can be unbricked this seems like a good approach to protect the innocent and not encourage cheaters.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:06 AM
Once everything is in place, just block denylist hotspots from being transferred (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Once everything is in place, just block denylist hotspots from being transferred (edited)
Not sure... let's assume you are a honest seller trying to sell a hotspot with buyer protection...
00:08
Would you transfer it before receiving payment and sending it to the buyer? (edited)
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impuls
Would you transfer it before receiving payment and sending it to the buyer? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:09 AM
Of course not.Why?
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Not sure if you saw the edit, but if the buyer doesn't pay you end up with a brick.
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impuls
Not sure if you saw the edit, but if the buyer doesn't pay you end up with a brick.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:12 AM
Again, why would you transfer ownership of a hotspot that wasn't paid for?
00:14
And why would an honest seller be selling a denylisted hotspot?
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Not sure how your suggestion is supposed to protect the honest buyer accidentally buying a hotspot on the denylist.
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impuls
Not sure how your suggestion is supposed to protect the honest buyer accidentally buying a hotspot on the denylist.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:26 AM
The buyer can't end up with a bricked hotspot in their wallet since the seller can't transfer it.
00:27
The seller will know they can never transfer it, so most won't try. Any that do will be hit with the same buyer protections as any other purchase.
00:28
Would be no different than if they shipped a bag of sand instead of a functional miner. 🙂
00:28
Buyer protections kick in
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Buyer protections kick in
Based on my past experience with PayPal I doubt they would honor the fact that the virtual transfer is not possible as long as the physical transfer happened.
00:30
Could be wrong.
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impuls
Based on my past experience with PayPal I doubt they would honor the fact that the virtual transfer is not possible as long as the physical transfer happened.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:32 AM
If the product arrives in a state where it doesn't work, they would issue a refund. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If the product arrives in a state where it doesn't work, they would issue a refund. 🙂
Looking at their rules you could be right. Only risk is that they could deem the transfer as "cash equivalent" at least according to the German rules.
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impuls
Looking at their rules you could be right. Only risk is that they could deem the transfer as "cash equivalent" at least according to the German rules.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 12:49 AM
Yeah, I'm only familiar with US rules. I hear EU has much better buyer protections 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, I'm only familiar with US rules. I hear EU has much better buyer protections 🙂 (edited)
Guess even in US 😆 there is a law that would enable you to sue whoever is selling you a non functional hotspot. Problem is you most likely will not be able to find that person.
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Most miners I buy 2nd hand come with the 12 words written on paper. So no transfer needed from the seller side. (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 02/12/2022 4:18 AM
Your 12 words are your private key to your wallet. Do not EVER give out your 12 words to anyone. Giving anyone or typing your 12 words in to any site will cause all of your HNT and Hotspots to be stolen. https://docs.helium.com/wallets/app-wallet/twelve-words/
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Petzl
Most miners I buy 2nd hand come with the 12 words written on paper. So no transfer needed from the seller side. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 5:31 AM
So they're giving you the wallet along with the miner.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So they're giving you the wallet along with the miner.
Yes, then you can move it yourself
👍 1
05:39
They only problem is sometimes decoding the writing to usefull words
😅 1
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Hi, not sure if I'm asking on the correct place, but I see that https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/684 was reviewed and closed. Should all the hotspots on the issues linked then be added to the deny list or am I understanding it wrong?
The following Issues were reviewed for this denylist update. Merging this branch will close all the linked issues. Closes #171, Closes #181, Closes #182, Closes #204, Closes #397, Closes #436, Clos...
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hi. I have a hs on the ban list, how can I get out?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/12/2022 11:24 AM
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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matmanmining 02/12/2022 12:23 PM
Where is the denylist, so that it can be searched
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matmanmining
Where is the denylist, so that it can be searched
Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 02/12/2022 1:10 PM
The link above your comment 👆And then go to the main page. And there you click on the denylist.csv. It takes you the page. (edited)
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rudiwol
Hi, not sure if I'm asking on the correct place, but I see that https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/684 was reviewed and closed. Should all the hotspots on the issues linked then be added to the deny list or am I understanding it wrong?
It could be a subset of the reported hotspots. If you’re still seeing more that need to be addressed, feel free to open more issues as long as they’re not duplicates of other open issues. The sheer number of open issues are difficult to manage so lots of mass closings are the easiest way. (edited)
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Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams
The link above your comment 👆And then go to the main page. And there you click on the denylist.csv. It takes you the page. (edited)
matmanmining 02/12/2022 4:04 PM
🙏
👍 1
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1. It violates the original intention of decentralization. 2. Lies investors to buy hotspot equipment, and then blocks the equipment, which directly makes you lose money. 3. Discrimination against Asian countries, no human rights, and no fairness. This is not the original intention of the project. 4. It is bound to happen. resisted by the people.
facepalm 2
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19:43
There should be a more rational plan
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If we can’t see the interests of miners, then what else do we need to do, just report every day, let this project enter a disgusting cycle
21:04
Now they are attacking each other
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hashc0de
It could be a subset of the reported hotspots. If you’re still seeing more that need to be addressed, feel free to open more issues as long as they’re not duplicates of other open issues. The sheer number of open issues are difficult to manage so lots of mass closings are the easiest way. (edited)
Thanks for the reply, but I check the ones I reported and a few of the others that was part of pull 684 and they are not on the deny list.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/12/2022 10:56 PM
Because 97% of the voting community voted for this.
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Yes, that was a well-planned vote, where is the going center please?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:28 AM
Going center?
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Where is the decentralization?
😴 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:29 AM
There isn't any with the current deny list
02:29
That's why hip40 aims to replace it
02:29
Validators opt in to support a deny list with 40
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It's just some people's idea
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:31 AM
Hip40? Yep
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Where is the original intention?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:32 AM
?
02:33
The intention of hip40 was born out of a year+ of discussions on what to do with the gaming problem and was community developed (edited)
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It's hard not to fight each other now
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:33 AM
Updated versions here, merging it soon
02:34
And then we can vote
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vote? It's just an excuse. The vision of the project is to build a global network. Haha, I laughed. From being optimistic about the project to being disappointed, I will see how many Asians are participating. European countries can play by themselves. I am angry, there should be more Good way, instead of doing it this way
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:38 AM
Please suggest a way
02:38
We would love hip40 alternatives
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Why do we insist on going our own way until there is no mature plan out? Damage the interests of miners, I can say this, I still care about the project, if it is not dealt with as soon as possible, I believe there will be more and more resistance
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:40 AM
It only damages gamers
02:41
Don't game and your not effected
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Where is the decentralization, it can be operated manually, and it is also called decentralization?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:44 AM
The current deny isn't decentralised
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heliumlmt
Where is the decentralization, it can be operated manually, and it is also called decentralization?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/13/2022 2:44 AM
Because the validators choose. No one person can deny a hotspot. There has to be consensus. That is decentralized. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:44 AM
Hip40 is, it's opt in
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Take a look at BTC
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heliumlmt
Take a look at BTC
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/13/2022 2:45 AM
Helium is not a crypto project. Comparing to crypto like BTC is incorrect.
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Yes, we don't even have enough electricity every day, maybe you're right, so stick with it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The current deny isn't decentralised
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:48 AM
And for this reason, we should replace the current denylist with hip40 (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:52 AM
We have one bit to replace around signing of lists and the security method used and then I'll call for the vote
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/13/2022 2:53 AM
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Bad Doctrine, the first time I heard about the project driving away miners
facepalm 1
02:55
I noticed that many Twitter big Vs have started to criticize our project, I sincerely hope the project can have a better way
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heliumlmt
Bad Doctrine, the first time I heard about the project driving away miners
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:55 AM
You mean driving away gamers
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02:55
As it only effects them
02:56
And the fact gamers got away with it, was driving more away
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02:56
That's the biggest complaint about helium, the gaming wasn't dealt with
02:56
Hip40, whilst not perfect (code should catch them) it is a step forward (edited)
02:57
It's not the perfect solution, but miles better than what was being done
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benefit? The principal has not been recovered, the income is pitifully low, what is the benefit
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heliumlmt
benefit? The principal has not been recovered, the income is pitifully low, what is the benefit
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 2:58 AM
I suggest you pick another project :)
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02:58
There are many benefits for me and many (edited)
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I would love if the manufacturer recycles my hotspot device
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How would validators chose the denylists? In their wallet, or is this a configuration option in the validator software?
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Testa
How would validators chose the denylists? In their wallet, or is this a configuration option in the validator software?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 3:51 AM
It's a config file change, they just input what lists they want to use, if any
03:51
On the validator software itself
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
On the validator software itself
Thanks. That means it is actually a choice of the valdator operators, which contradicts the staking principle and makes it a ver centralised mechanism, doesn't it?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 3:54 AM
there are 3k validators
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Shouldn't it rather be the choice of the validator wallet owner?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there are 3k validators
And the majority is operated by a few
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 3:54 AM
it cant be done from the wallet side
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Who do not necessarily have a stake..
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 3:56 AM
sure, dont use a validator operator who uses lists you don't agree with
03:56
or if they dont use one and you think they should, choose another provider
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So if I e.g. offer a really cheap validator service validator owners would transfer their validator to me. Then I can chose the denylist and remkve hotspots i dont like
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
sure, dont use a validator operator who uses lists you don't agree with
Do you think validator owners will know? Hiw can they check? How frequently should they check?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 3:57 AM
i think they should sure, i think validator operators will need to be clear with what lists they use
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I don't think you can verify it though?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 4:00 AM
again, don't use a operator who doesn't show what they use
04:00
remember , 30? (number may be slightly wrong) validators in consensus have to agree for a ban to go through
04:00
no one provider can control it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
no one provider can control it
I don't recall the precise number but around 30% of validators are operated by the same operator - aren't they? so as soon as they have the majority in the CG they can deny hotspots
04:02
they actually could do a lot more if they wanted to..
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 4:03 AM
You can't control who's in concensus tho
👆 1
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no but if you operate 30% it is just a matter of time
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 4:03 AM
30% isn't enough to control concensus
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no but eventually your 30% will have the majority
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 4:03 AM
And you need 30/43 to agree
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still can happen
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 6:10 AM
Sorry but I'm just a community member
06:10
And I proposed this hip
06:10
So that statements wrong :)
06:10
The community also would have to vote hip40 in
06:10
So it's not helium controlling anything
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The blacklist must be cancelled. Most of Asia is deployed on the ground! So it's easy to kill by mistake!
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07:33
The blacklist must be cancelled. Most of Asia is deployed on the ground! So it's easy to kill by mistake!
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07:36
Asians are also human. Please don't have regional discrimination. Let's do something for decentralization. The blacklist must be cancelled!
facepalm 1
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioI agree with the blacklist mechanism, but if the real-targeted players are blocked, how does Helium officially explain and compensate? The blockage for half a month or even a month will cause heavy losses to the real-targeted players. Are there any official compensation measures, or is this a truly centralized project?
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I just want the official to have a better solution, instead of blindly implementing it like this
07:38
Looks like I'm not the only one reporting the problem
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Blacklisting is a stupid way, which will cause panic among miners and harm the project in the long run.
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Hart
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioI agree with the blacklist mechanism, but if the real-targeted players are blocked, how does Helium officially explain and compensate? The blockage for half a month or even a month will cause heavy losses to the real-targeted players. Are there any official compensation measures, or is this a truly centralized project?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:42 AM
They don't, gamers don't get rewarded
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If you don't block hotspots, how to sell new hotspot devices, it's time to wake up
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:43 AM
There's is no promise of earning
07:43
And there is no compensation
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Is this intentional?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:43 AM
?
07:43
They're blocked for gaming, yes not earning is by intention
07:44
There is no blanket ban
07:44
They are banned for clear signs of gaming
07:44
And even then, they can appeal
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There have been rumors lately that this is an official act, otherwise new manufacturers will not be able to enter
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The purpose of blocking hot spots is to sell new hot spots? Isn't this a poison to quench your thirst?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:46 AM
No?
07:47
The purpose of the blocklist is to ban hotspots that have been caught cheating
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So what does poc version 11 do? Just get rid of poc version 11 and just use HIP40.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:47 AM
Pocv11 has nothing to do with 40, pocv11 is regional adjustments to make helium legal in every country
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Why is it not indicated before purchasing a hotspot device? Banned after purchase
07:49
07:50
Why not give advance notice?
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In fact, many real deployments have also been blacklisted. The sequelae caused by such manslaughter is a psychological blow to miners. In the long run, it will be a major disaster for the project. Please stop the blacklist. Everyone hates it!
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07:50
In fact, many real deployments have also been blacklisted. The sequelae caused by such manslaughter is a psychological blow to miners. In the long run, it will be a major disaster for the project. Please stop the blacklist. Everyone hates it!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:51 AM
They don't
07:52
Users voted the denylist to stay (edited)
07:52
Users voted for it
07:52
That's why it's in
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They are already deceived by doing this, because they do not tell investors before buying, and they are blocked after buying, resulting in direct losses.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:53 AM
There is no contract here
07:53
Helium also doesn't authorise 3rd party manufacturers
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Why not give advance notice?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:53 AM
And the blockchain is open source
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Helium's official website does not have any blacklist mechanism, only POC mechanism, why not put the blacklist mechanism on the official website, in order to deceive more people to buy equipment, then block the equipment, and then sell more equipment.
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heliumlmt
Why not give advance notice?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:54 AM
Because as amir said, the problem got so big they decided they had to do something
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Hart
Helium's official website does not have any blacklist mechanism, only POC mechanism, why not put the blacklist mechanism on the official website, in order to deceive more people to buy equipment, then block the equipment, and then sell more equipment.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:54 AM
Because it's being replaced with hip40
07:55
And that will be shown, everywhere
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I just want to know how to compensate the miners that are actually located after being blocked.
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Hart
Helium's official website does not have any blacklist mechanism, only POC mechanism, why not put the blacklist mechanism on the official website, in order to deceive more people to buy equipment, then block the equipment, and then sell more equipment.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:55 AM
They block gamers from stealing rewards , and 3rd parties, which are seperate , sell more remember
07:55
Helium doesn't earn a penny from selling hotspots in any way
07:55
The fees to onboard are burnt
07:56
They make 0% from hardware
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Hart
I just want to know how to compensate the miners that are actually located after being blocked.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:56 AM
There will never be compensation for potential earnings
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So helium started this project and they didn't make any money does that mean?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:57 AM
They don't from hardware sales
07:57
They earn the same if not another one was onboarded
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I feel cheated, please refund my money
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:57 AM
Yes , and new sales don't effect that
07:57
:)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 7:58 AM
Helium doesn't own lorawan, semtech does
07:58
There is no license here or contract (edited)
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didn't tell me before I bought it
07:59
You guys are liars, I'm so sad, I won't just accept it
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heliumlmt
You guys are liars, I'm so sad, I won't just accept it
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:00 AM
we could help you get off it 😉
08:00
and yeah, I don't work for helium just to be clear
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You are not the project party, I am not looking for you, we will see you on Twitter, let everyone see how you blocked miners in order to sell mining machines
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heliumlmt
You are not the project party, I am not looking for you, we will see you on Twitter, let everyone see how you blocked miners in order to sell mining machines
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:02 AM
why would blocking hotspots effect new sales?
08:02
im very lost by this statement
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I will tell my friends around me that this project drives away miners
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:03 AM
yeah helium didnt sell you any thing
08:04
so not sure what contract you have with them thats been broken
08:04
but take it up with a lawyer 🙂
08:04
there is no license for the helium software
08:04
its open source
08:04
helium doesnt own the lorawan patent either, semtech does
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Is the blacklist rule open source?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:05 AM
remember the denylist was voted to be kept, by the community, not by helium
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No one has been fooled by you like this, do you think you can rule everything?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:07 AM
I think its great cheaters have been stopped
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Are you the project owner? ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:07 AM
and many more will be in the future 🙂
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heliumlmt
Are you the project owner? ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:07 AM
the community own this project
08:07
its open source
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Excuse me? Who is executing blacklisting?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:07 AM
the community sign every hotspot added
08:07
not helium
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its open source
Excuse me? Who is executing blacklisting?
facepalm 1
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heliumlmt
No one has been fooled by you like this, do you think you can rule everything?
Instead of attacking community volunteer BFGNeil, who puts a lot of time in this hip, maybe you can just share the name of your impacted hotspot or stop cheating if that's the case?
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lop
Excuse me? Who is executing blacklisting?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:08 AM
community memebers hotspots drop witness receipts when the hotspots on the deny list
08:08
additions to the list are SIGNED by community members
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Whether each hot spot blacklist is added or not should also be voted by the community! Instead of someone can add a blacklist
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:09 AM
heliums technology is open source (edited)
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08:09
the manufacturer makes whatever they like
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:10 AM
I'll give you a warning for that last line, please be respectful
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There are several community members. How can community members ensure the fairness of the blacklist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:11 AM
they are asked to check any additions and sign if they agree it should be on the list
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 8:11 AM
So if a government banned all helium miner, government should compensate people miners? Is that what you are saying? 🤔 Cause people have a "contract"? 🤣
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
additions to the list are SIGNED by community members
Is there a special person to verify on site? Why can you arbitrarily think that a hot spot is false?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:12 AM
@zhendangbo please share your hotspot names
08:12
@heliumlmt you too
08:12
we would gladly help if you are on there falsely
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:12 AM
yep
08:13
we voted it in so its "allowed"
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Why not open to everyone, but just community members?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:14 AM
it is
08:14
to non gamers
08:14
if you game the system unfairly, you will be blocked
08:14
99% (maybe more) of that list is made up of farms with attenuators
08:15
not providing any coverage
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we voted it in so its "allowed"
Is that ridiculous? You can vote without going to the scene to investigate and collect evidence?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:15 AM
not true
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Why are some reports, and then not accepted, no reason given?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:15 AM
i do respect them if they dont game
08:15
otherwise they deserve to be on the list
08:16
and if they dont want to play by the rules everyone else is, for the good of the project, then there is no respect due
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Is it because of tampering with project server data?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:18 AM
it is tampering with RF data
08:18
yes
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I wonder if the report fails, why is there no reason?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:19 AM
there are no laws being broken here
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The environment of each region is very complex, and you said it is possible. Just guess, vote with the result of guess? This is crazy. Everything is about evidence, not possibility? You have to do 100% field research before you decide to make a judgment. Not speculation
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@TheJWayswhat are you saying? I mean I reported someone else and it wasn't accepted, why not give me a reason?
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The law also pays attention to evidence, which is judged on the spot and in kind, rather than by data on the Internet. Otherwise, the blacklist is a tool used by some people to crack down on real miners
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Then I would like to know, is the blacklist mechanism simply checking the entire network by yourself or just relying on reporting?
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Hart
Then I would like to know, is the blacklist mechanism simply checking the entire network by yourself or just relying on reporting?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:23 AM
it is both automated, and community reported at the moment
08:24
but no list additions or removals are done without the community members signing it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:24 AM
there is no intellectual property rights here
08:24
stop saying that please
08:24
lol
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There is evidence.
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Why does the automatic scanning algorithm still block some machines by reporting them? Is there some problem with the algorithm itself?
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 8:24 AM
So what are you guys gonna say the names of your banned miners or what?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:25 AM
we'd gladly help you get off it
08:25
within hours
08:25
if your hotspots are legitimate
08:25
but clearly not
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we'd gladly help you get off it
It is up to each member of the community to add and delete hotspots.
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lop
It is up to each member of the community to add and delete hotspots.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:26 AM
sure, you can request removals/additions
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 8:27 AM
Are you a lawyer? An american lawyer?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:27 AM
going round in circles now (edited)
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Well now that we are getting into legality, might be best to move your concerns to legal@helium.com ; and not this channel. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:28 AM
silence lol
08:29
i think we have our answer
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I have sold my equipment and I have no machines on the blacklist.
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Great, then whats the problem here?
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I just found out that those reports were not accepted and no reason was given.
08:31
It is the version updated yesterday, which was closed, but not added to the blacklist.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:32 AM
there is no intellectual property rights
08:32
stop saying that
08:32
the code is open source
08:32
anyone can use it free of license lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:33 AM
and please stop targeting me in comments about my ability, last chance
08:33
there is no need to get personal, i am not
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ok
08:36
I would like to ask, some were reported and entered the blacklist, and some were reported not to be in the blacklist. Are you implementing your automatic scanning algorithm for these machines, or manually reviewing them, and then voting in the community? Still no moderation for direct community votes?
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Hart
I would like to ask, some were reported and entered the blacklist, and some were reported not to be in the blacklist. Are you implementing your automatic scanning algorithm for these machines, or manually reviewing them, and then voting in the community? Still no moderation for direct community votes?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:36 AM
manually reviewed and then the signers are asked to confirm
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 8:36 AM
Have u heard of amazon sidewalk? Lol
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.iook,thx
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Is there any profit from the current production capacity and field deployment of this project? Rent, electricity, Internet!
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lop
Is there any profit from the current production capacity and field deployment of this project? Rent, electricity, Internet!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:37 AM
I think that comment got lost in translation, it doesnt make sense
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:40 AM
hey i havnt done anything but propose hip40 lol
😆 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I think that comment got lost in translation, it doesnt make sense
The blacklist will eventually kill the project with a sigh
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lop
The blacklist will eventually kill the project with a sigh
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:40 AM
far from it 🙂
08:40
its actually helping the project succeed
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lop
The blacklist will eventually kill the project with a sigh
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:40 AM
and you could get off it
08:40
if you gave us hotspot names, put an appeal in
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and you could get off it
wait and see
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:41 AM
i could help that happen in hours, but you clearly don't want to
08:41
I wonder why..
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I wonder why..
Thousands of hot wallets in the United States? Are they all real deployment without deception? Can you believe it?
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lop
Thousands of hot wallets in the United States? Are they all real deployment without deception? Can you believe it?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:43 AM
Any gaming is targeted by the denylist
08:43
There is no discrimination of where here
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There are 1000 hotspots in a wallet
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I would like to ask, does manual review mean that every member of the community reviews it? Or after using the algorithm to scan, will the community members vote only after the algorithm thinks the machine is cheating? Or will the algorithm ask community members to vote even if it doesn't think the machine is cheating?
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Hart
I would like to ask, does manual review mean that every member of the community reviews it? Or after using the algorithm to scan, will the community members vote only after the algorithm thinks the machine is cheating? Or will the algorithm ask community members to vote even if it doesn't think the machine is cheating?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:44 AM
They submit an update, the signers are then asked to confirm and sign it
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lop
There are 1000 hotspots in a wallet
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:44 AM
That's not a sign of gaming
08:44
Altering RF meta data is
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lop
There are 1000 hotspots in a wallet
Right, those are most likely hosting company's that bought 1000s, they own them, but ship them out to locations that can host them. There is alot more of this ecosystem than just this denylist channel. (edited)
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Fizzy
Right, those are most likely hosting company's that bought 1000s, they own them, but ship them out to locations that can host them. There is alot more of this ecosystem than just this denylist channel. (edited)
Don't be silly, don't pretend to be confused? The whole city is wrapped up by him?
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Will the algorithm still scan after the community submits the report? Or direct manual review? Is manual review based on subjective judgment or algorithmic data judgment?
08:47
@TheJWaysthanks
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:48 AM
And basic legal knowledge says you have no contract with helium, no guarantee s on earning at all
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Don't pretend to be confused. It's true or not. You know it!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:48 AM
There are no laws being broken here
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I think it is time for the next question that isn't from these 3.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:50 AM
They were just saying an example :)
08:50
No threats :)
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I can say with certainty that most of the deployment of this project are fraudsters. What the project side needs to do is not blacklist, but think about how to raise the price of hnt (edited)
🤣 3
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lop
I can say with certainty that most of the deployment of this project are fraudsters. What the project side needs to do is not blacklist, but think about how to raise the price of hnt (edited)
Ok, put it into a YouTube video. Bye
🤣 1
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lop
I can say with certainty that most of the deployment of this project are fraudsters. What the project side needs to do is not blacklist, but think about how to raise the price of hnt (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:51 AM
Please back that up with evidence in any way lol would love to see it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:51 AM
There are no intellectual property rights here stop repeating it lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There are no intellectual property rights here stop repeating it lol
I'm just a little boy who made "the emperor's new clothes" and told the truth. Everyone knows!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:54 AM
Open source = without license
08:54
Helium Inc doesn't make hotspots either
08:55
You think this ones gaming?
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 8:56 AM
Do u really think helium owns lora transmit technology??
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I can say with certainty that most of the deployment of this project are fraudsters. What the project side needs to do is not blacklist, but think about how to raise the price of hnt
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:59 AM
Because we can, without breaking any laws, to secure the future of the network existing, that's why the denylist is there
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I'm not angry anymore, I think admin you're right, I'll see if it's fair now
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 8:59 AM
Just a quick fyi we call it a denylist not the other one
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Stop pretending. You know it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:00 AM
You can replace all the code and do what you like with it
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ha-ha
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lop
I can say with certainty that most of the deployment of this project are fraudsters. What the project side needs to do is not blacklist, but think about how to raise the price of hnt
Question, why would Helium want to raise price if you "can say with certainty that most of the deployment of this project are fraudsters". So you want to make fraudsters to have success with Helium? Very interesting. lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:02 AM
That's.open.source.
09:02
Feel free to fork it
09:02
And use it yourself
09:02
Take the deny out
09:02
You are free to do that, without licence and run your own
09:02
You don't even need to ask helium to do that
09:02
Just go on GitHub and fork it
09:02
Run your own
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I would like to ask if a machine is not online for a month, but he is cheating, and I report him, will it succeed?
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 9:02 AM
He should consult his american lawyer first 🤣
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The current production capacity, the real layout, is really a loss
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:02 AM
License free
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:04 AM
Huge news
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Can it be nautical too?
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If the real layout requires network and rent, at the current hnt price, there is only a loss
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:06 AM
Your free to use the hardware as you like but on the helium network to earn hnt you must use the open source software
09:06
And that comes with a deny list
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It has no location set. Thats where it shows up if the owner does not setup the device properly.
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@TheJWaysI would like to ask, if a miner has not been online for a month, but I am sure that he cheated before, and I report it, will it be successful?
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So many people make fake positions as a last resort,
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 9:07 AM
Can you consult your american lawyer before talking?
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Hart
@TheJWaysI would like to ask, if a miner has not been online for a month, but I am sure that he cheated before, and I report it, will it be successful?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:08 AM
No, it needs recent activity to be considered
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ok, disappointed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:08 AM
If it's not earning and hasn't been, then there is nothing to judge it on, and it's technically not gaming
09:09
As it's off
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If the real layout needs network and rent, according to the current hNT price, there is only a loss
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I'm stating objective facts
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:11 AM
anways
09:11
im stopping the circle here
09:11
same 2 not understanding it
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If you want to "use" the network with no restrictions, then deploy data only hotspots. If you want your gateway deployments to be confirmed and paid to prove their existance then you can deploy a miner. Which comes with a set of rules you should stay within to get paid for providing this service. This has nothing todo with technology or IP, its a ruleset in a blockchain.
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 9:12 AM
Please talk to your american lawyer first.
🤣 1
09:12
Ya and my brother is also works for helium /s
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There is no need to get rich quickly, but this is a loss. This is the people's network, not a money losing game.
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lop
There is no need to get rich quickly, but this is a loss. This is the people's network, not a money losing game.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:13 AM
i play by the rules, there is no loss here
09:14
there are no admins here
09:14
I'm just a community member myself
09:14
this is just the community talking
09:15
if you look, my names on the hip as the community make the rules
09:15
this hip will be voted on
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there are no admins here
The rent is free, maybe your network is free
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:15 AM
it has to have a super majority 66%+ of the vote to pass
09:15
thats the decentralisation in work
09:16
we submit hips, its voted on
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But I know most people can't
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Can community members unify their will privately? Whether others can join this community member.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:16 AM
anyone can submit a hip
09:16
I submitted this one (edited)
09:16
if you have a better method at stopping gaming than a deny list
09:17
I'd love to help you write a hip
09:17
choices are always good
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Most votes, which is 66%, but if there are only a few community members, the so-called 66% is meaningless
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:17 AM
that wasnt sold by helium
09:18
your missing the basics here, come on 😉
09:18
the hardware comes loaded with open source software, you're free to replace it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:18 AM
bitcoin and eth dont have proof of coverage, which comes with a set of rules
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
if you have a better method at stopping gaming than a deny list
Raising the price of hnt is the most important thing. After all, money is the most intuitive feeling
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:19 AM
very different things
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lop
Raising the price of hnt is the most important thing. After all, money is the most intuitive feeling
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:19 AM
and to do that, we need to stop gaming
09:19
which is what deny lists do
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You are not prevented from deploying or earning from sensors - which is the use of the network.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:19 AM
otherwise people loose confidence
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 9:19 AM
I dont know much about helium honestly but this is some great entertainment 🤣 🍿
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:19 AM
yep
09:20
and i've only had 1 coffee today, not even a beer
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Ask your brother about suing the manufacturer then.
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Thanks for your hard work.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:20 AM
the rules are decided by the community
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
otherwise people loose confidence
The disadvantages of the blacklist outweigh the advantages. Cancel it as soon as possible, and then raise the price of hnt,I believe the project will be better and better
facepalm 2
🍩 2
🤦‍♀️ 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:20 AM
full steam ahead
09:21
lets get the vote in
09:21
i want to add more to the denylist
09:21
and have more deny lists
09:21
its obviously working 😉
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You have my vote
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Probably understand, basically the fate of miners is decided by the administrator
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:22 AM
by the community
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Did I miss the hotspot names? Or are they still not have given those... 🍿 🍺
🤣 2
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Chris12
Did I miss the hotspot names? Or are they still not have given those... 🍿 🍺
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:23 AM
not yet
😂 2
09:23
its a shame
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I want to know, how to join the community, how to remove community members.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:24 AM
i'd write and submit the pr to get them removed
09:24
if it was found to be a false positive
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Hart
I want to know, how to join the community, how to remove community members.
Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 9:24 AM
Lool what
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:24 AM
instead of wasting hours here
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Will community members always be those people?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:25 AM
it will be anyone who wants to contribute (edited)
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What a joke... All these post complaining about everything, but not give the hotspot names.
💯 1
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The community is actually you, you have the final say, I will keep a low profile in the future
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Hart
Will community members always be those people?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:25 AM
is a word lost in translation?
09:25
community just means anyone who is interested
09:25
it is open, no restrictions
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it will be anyone who wants to contribute (edited)
The disadvantages of the blacklist outweigh the advantages. Cancel it as soon as possible, and then raise the price of hnt,I believe the project will be better and better
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lop
The disadvantages of the blacklist outweigh the advantages. Cancel it as soon as possible, and then raise the price of hnt,I believe the project will be better and better
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:25 AM
sorry, no
09:25
please feel free to vote no
09:25
watch everyone else vote yes 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:26 AM
show me your contract
09:26
im really eager to see it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
show me your contract
You are the gravedigger of the project
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Just some local language I use and I think it fails to translate, sorry.
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lop
You are the gravedigger of the project
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:26 AM
far from it 😉
09:27
gamers are the "grave diggers" (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
gamers are the "grave diggers" (edited)
Do you know what each community member really thinks?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:29 AM
apparently you do
09:29
I talk to them a lot tho
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:29 AM
and exactly that we vote on things to make sure everyone feels the same
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
apparently you do
Hehe, I don't agree with you
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:30 AM
and they voted for the deny list to continue
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FYI, Any discussion of legal issues between anyone and Helium or class actions is only allowed in the dedicated area. And the dedicated area is anywhere but this discord.
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 9:30 AM
Aite, thank you everyone for the entertainment, made my morning. A hour passed by so quick. 🤗
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:30 AM
lol
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It looks like everyone is enjoying this discussion😆 ...... but I know I asked this already, is there someone on this group that can advise why all the hotspots linked to Pull request 684 was not added to the deny list?
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioI would like to ask, how big is the range scanned by the algorithm? Scan an area every day, or a country, or a continent, or the entire world? Or not every day, but every week, every month?
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Hart
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioI would like to ask, how big is the range scanned by the algorithm? Scan an area every day, or a country, or a continent, or the entire world? Or not every day, but every week, every month?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:31 AM
entire world, and I'm not sure how often
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Laughingbutt 02/13/2022 9:31 AM
Yeah looking forward too! And thank you @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io and other authors for hip40 🤗 (edited)
👍 3
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:31 AM
please keep it english here 🙂
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioWhy are some particularly obvious cheating machines missed by the algorithm and need to be reported by users?
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Hart
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioWhy are some particularly obvious cheating machines missed by the algorithm and need to be reported by users?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:33 AM
I dont make the list, I also don't run the system that detects it, I couldn't say (edited)
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Can he represent the idea of every miner? One person, one vote, not hnt quantity
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lop
The disadvantages of the blacklist outweigh the advantages. Cancel it as soon as possible, and then raise the price of hnt,I believe the project will be better and better
Brrr, strange things to read here on a Sunday. Stop the blacklist and price will go up? Please explain that correlation to me.... And while you're at it, also interested in your view of what disadvantages a blacklist has. It's only aim is to make sure that people who don't play by the rules have no chance to play at all.
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Hart
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioWhy are some particularly obvious cheating machines missed by the algorithm and need to be reported by users?
Indeed, please report on Github with some explanation on why you think it's cheating. Maybe the algorithm does not detect that type of gaming yet (thinking out loud here).
👍 1
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Get up, people who don't want to be slaves, we can't be manipulated by the blacklist
🤣 2
Denylist 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:38 AM
or
09:38
and hear me out
09:38
dont game?
09:38
and you'll be fine?
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The blacklist is a violation of the rights of our machines
Denylist 2
😂 1
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has not read all the way back.... Is lop affected by the blacklist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:39 AM
we think so
09:39
they wont share their hotspot names
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lop
The blacklist is a violation of the rights of our machines
So, assuming you are a nice person and you are obviously not gaming in any way. Consequently, assuming you are not on the blocklist either. Can you please tell me how this blocklist affects you negatively?
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If you don't appeal, the hotspots will remain on the blacklist forever?
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Ivan684
If you don't appeal, the hotspots will remain on the blacklist forever?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:40 AM
there is decay to it from what i understand
09:40
and then hip40 will be replacing it
09:41
(if its voted on)
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Don't play dumb
Denylist 2
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lop
Don't play dumb
Was that to me? Meaning you are on the list?
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molano
So, assuming you are a nice person and you are obviously not gaming in any way. Consequently, assuming you are not on the blocklist either. Can you please tell me how this blocklist affects you negatively?
OK! Since you are the real layout, tell me your hot name
Denylist 1
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In China, many people trust the hotspots to a third party. Many investors don't know what happened, which is a great loss for investors。
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Ivan684
In China, many people trust the hotspots to a third party. Many investors don't know what happened, which is a great loss for investors。
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:43 AM
dont work with bad people then
09:43
thats not the fault of helium
09:43
but yours for trusting them
09:44
and you for not checking the setups correctly
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lop
OK! Since you are the real layout, tell me your hot name
I don't understand the question.
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molano
I don't understand the question.
Tell everyone your hot spot name
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I think they're victims
09:45
The person who provided cheating (a third party) did not suffer any loss
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lop
Tell everyone your hot spot name
I miss the reason to do that
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molano
I don't understand the question.
Since you are the real layout, tell everyone, don't be afraid
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lop
Tell everyone your hot spot name
We are still waiting for yours.
🤣 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:46 AM
#questions-and-answers
09:46
this is for hip40 really but deny list is close i suppose
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molano
I miss the reason to do that
Hehe, I'm afraid you're also a liar
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
#questions-and-answers
#hip-17-hex-based-density-rewards
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there is decay to it from what i understand
When will hip40 be implemented?
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Ivan684
When will hip40 be implemented?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:47 AM
it needs to go to vote first
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Last vote was interim management or HIP40
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:48 AM
last vote was for the old deny list way
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Fizzy
We are still waiting for yours.
I object to the blacklist. Why should I publish it
Denylist 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:48 AM
hip40 vote is to replace it
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How long will it take to vote?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:49 AM
we're waiting on 1 last change to the hip
09:49
and then it will be up for vote
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I would like to ask you, chat, how many real layout?
09:50
For the real layout, raise your hand and tell everyone your hot spot name
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I don't want to attack anyone. I just want to cancel the blacklist
👎 6
👍 1
💯 1
Denylist 3
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Before hip40 is implemented or voted, the members of the consensus group are still maintaining the blacklist. Can I understand that? Is there any clear mechanism for this blacklist to tell people why hotspots enter the blacklist, because it will also kill some real hotspots by mistake.
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lop
I don't want to attack anyone. I just want to cancel the blacklist
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:54 AM
please, refer to it as a denylist, we don't call it that anymore
👆 1
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Ivan684
Before hip40 is implemented or voted, the members of the consensus group are still maintaining the blacklist. Can I understand that? Is there any clear mechanism for this blacklist to tell people why hotspots enter the blacklist, because it will also kill some real hotspots by mistake.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:54 AM
the current deny list lives on the hotspots
09:55
the list itself is maintained by helium inc, and the community signs any changes, those that chose to have the signing role
09:55
the aim is to get hip40 in asap
09:55
to replace it
09:55
so we have a decentralised way of running a denylist(s) and many of them that validators choose to use (edited)
👍 1
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lop
Hehe, I'm afraid you're also a liar
Where, how, why do i lie?
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Will these lists be released after HIP40 goes into effect, or will they still be on denylist?
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Hart
Will these lists be released after HIP40 goes into effect, or will they still be on denylist?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:56 AM
the deny lists of hip40 are run by the community
09:56
validators can select to use any deny list
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molano
Where, how, why do i lie?
I don't want to talk to you
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:58 AM
@Dalio , gaming is happening world wide
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lop
I don't want to talk to you
Cool. Do you want to give me some reasons why you are against the denylist?
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Exactly those who pose
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For denylist, I still feel that it is not the investors who buy hotspots at high prices that should be punished, but the third-party custodian, because they are cheaters.
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Ivan684
For denylist, I still feel that it is not the investors who buy hotspots at high prices that should be punished, but the third-party custodian, because they are cheaters.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 9:59 AM
dont use the third party then?
09:59
helium doesnt make you use them
09:59
you chose to use them
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After HIP40 takes effect, denylist is currently only one of the lists, and there will be more lists that will be applied to HIP40, right?
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Hart
After HIP40 takes effect, denylist is currently only one of the lists, and there will be more lists that will be applied to HIP40, right?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:00 AM
there will be many lists
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there will be many lists
What will be the process to create those lists?
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molano
What will be the process to create those lists?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:01 AM
10:01
but its really up to the list maker
10:03
part of the hip40 education/setup i would like to create open source ( @zhendangbo that means without license) software to support list generation and removal requests
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I'm logged in, but I still don't have access
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:03 AM
so its easier to use the open source stuff than just do something custom and not have features
10:04
but its their choice to use it
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Hart
I'm logged in, but I still don't have access
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:04 AM
I just saw, sorry you'll need to wait a few days for the hip to be updated with the new changes (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:07 AM
Wauw, that was a intersting read😂 😂 😂
👍 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:07 AM
can i have my 3 hours back?
😂 2
10:07
ktnx
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Chris12
Did I miss the hotspot names? Or are they still not have given those... 🍿 🍺
Good question
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:08 AM
Chapeau to you guys, i would have stopped responding to them a long time ago if i where in your shoes
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I like salty cheaters on a Sunday
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Chapeau to you guys, i would have stopped responding to them a long time ago if i where in your shoes
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:09 AM
lol i have time for everyone
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zzeddd
Good question
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:09 AM
Nope, they havent given any hotspot name
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:09 AM
even if they dont like the answers lol
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:09 AM
But repeating the same answers over and over again, that just a waste of your time
10:10
Not sure if they really didnt understand because of translations or they where just trolling
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Nope, they havent given any hotspot name
What a surprise. Chinese names. Maybe they know who created all those mining farms and spoofing setups 🙃
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Chapeau to you guys, i would have stopped responding to them a long time ago if i where in your shoes
And this. Doing a great job @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io !
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Not sure if they really didnt understand because of translations or they where just trolling
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:10 AM
i wonder what was lost in translation myself
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zzeddd
What a surprise. Chinese names. Maybe they know who created all those mining farms and spoofing setups 🙃
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:11 AM
One of them started to say they dont have the miner themselfs but a 3th party manages the hw. Interesting theorie wich does sound plausibel as i have heard rumors of HNT gaming hosting companys
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NL_Miniterror_NL
One of them started to say they dont have the miner themselfs but a 3th party manages the hw. Interesting theorie wich does sound plausibel as i have heard rumors of HNT gaming hosting companys
Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised. Then it's more like an investment fund, that manages the mining and revenues
10:14
And ofc, cheating revenues are dropping hard thanks to the denylist. What a surprise they want to cancel it
10:15
They would still know the hotspot names. They don't want to share them 😄
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:20 AM
Without a actual name of the miners its hard to say if they are actually gaming. Would say innocent until proven guilty, although i have to admit that if one has a valid miner or multiple one would not be against the denylist.
10:21
I do have to read more into this hip though, i understand validators can choose wich lists they want but still not clear who will manage the lists. Everyone can make a list, but how will a validator owner know if a list is trustworthy or not
10:21
And make the decision if they want to use that list or not
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I do have to read more into this hip though, i understand validators can choose wich lists they want but still not clear who will manage the lists. Everyone can make a list, but how will a validator owner know if a list is trustworthy or not
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:31 AM
They don't, they have to do their on research on the list
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:31 AM
Is there a incentive for them to do that research?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:31 AM
No
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:32 AM
Jikes
10:32
If i where a validator, why would i do the research
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NL_Miniterror_NL
And make the decision if they want to use that list or not
that is the biggest issue in my opinion. every validator operator would need to assess the lists and decide whether to use them or not
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:32 AM
Validators have there fixed portion of hnt
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:32 AM
To secure their future earnings
10:32
And any hnt they have staked
10:33
It's in their interest to help secure the network
10:33
And see it succeed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
To secure their future earnings
if the error rate is low enough they may not care. and even if it starts to hurt the network, how would a validator owner now? You would need to follow discord and co..
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:33 AM
Im not really into the validator stuff, they need to stake 10k hnt, after x period they can unstake it. If they unstake it can they still get into CG?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's in their interest to help secure the network
it is easier to think: "there are 2000 validators out there, I am sure they do their job, no need for me to do more work.."
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Im not really into the validator stuff, they need to stake 10k hnt, after x period they can unstake it. If they unstake it can they still get into CG?
no
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:34 AM
And the current denylist will stop, will helium inc keep there ML running and also make a list available for the validators?
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NL_Miniterror_NL
And the current denylist will stop, will helium inc keep there ML running and also make a list available for the validators?
undefined... anyone can make a list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:35 AM
Helium will still make a list as far as I know
10:35
They may sunset it but nothing confirmed
10:35
So validators can choose to use it
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:36 AM
Ok, so worst case scenario ( i like to think in worst cases) is that the current denylist will be pulled from the firmware and validators will not add external lists from commmunity members, yielding gamers free game again
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:36 AM
Yep
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:37 AM
If the community vote for this hip ends up as no, will the current denylist be maintained?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:37 AM
That is not clear
10:38
I assume so? I will ask!
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Why on earth will validators willingly and knowingly make it easy to game? They have an incentive to make it work, for starters the 10k they have staked.
👍 2
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:39 AM
Im not sure about that, the validators have the most interest in the price of HNT. As that makes up what they earn and makes sure there investment wont vanish into nothing.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
If the community vote for this hip ends up as no, will the current denylist be maintained?
“until such time that a HIP-40 implementation is approved or if HIP-40 is rejected by the community?” The wording leaves it open for interpretation…
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groot
Why on earth will validators willingly and knowingly make it easy to game? They have an incentive to make it work, for starters the 10k they have staked.
the incentive is not challenged. it just does not help just to move work to the validators when nobody knows what needs to be done. if you are a validator operator, which list to take? All of them and accept collateral damage, or none? review each list and every update? impossible!
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NL_Miniterror_NL
If the community vote for this hip ends up as no, will the current denylist be maintained?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:40 AM
I have asked, I'll get back to you
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I have asked, I'll get back to you
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:40 AM
Thx👍
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Thx👍
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:41 AM
If hip40 fails, the current deny list would be removed
😬 1
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I think you should give the validator community a little more credit here. They will probably take the lists that are created using a methodology they deem correct and comes from a trustworthy party.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If hip40 fails, the current deny list would be removed
if it fails, it will be removed. if it passes, it will be maintained. isn't that blackmailing or similar?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If hip40 fails, the current deny list would be removed
As it should, it was meant as a ‘until hip40’
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:42 AM
Yeah
10:42
The vote language says as much
10:42
Maintain it untill the hip40 vote passes (if it does)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If hip40 fails, the current deny list would be removed
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:43 AM
Interesting, the community voted for the current denylist, it was done secretly as gaming became a big problem (wich i agree and still think it is). If this hip fails the problem will return in full size again and possibly even bigger.
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Testa
if it fails, it will be removed. if it passes, it will be maintained. isn't that blackmailing or similar?
If HIP40 fails the network democratically decided that a denylist should not exist, so no that wont be blackmail
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:44 AM
I dont agree there, it could be one votes no on the way this will be handled by validators but still think a denylist is needed
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groot
I think you should give the validator community a little more credit here. They will probably take the lists that are created using a methodology they deem correct and comes from a trustworthy party.
I have seen it in too many companies. people with a lot of accountability because it is easy to assign accountability but no means to enforce controls and do what would actually be required. A validator owner gets like 5% of interest, a year? soon you will get that much on a bank account, with no risk and no work..
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groot
If HIP40 fails the network democratically decided that a denylist should not exist, so no that wont be blackmail
with that logic no vote for HIP40 would be needed, because there was already a vote on the denylist..
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That must be clearly stated in the HIP vote to prevent any miscommunications: denylist is gone nonetheless, will we do HIP40.
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Testa
with that logic no vote for HIP40 would be needed, because there was already a vote on the denylist..
There was a vote to temporarily use the helium (very centralized) denylist.
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groot
That must be clearly stated in the HIP vote to prevent any miscommunications: denylist is gone nonetheless, will we do HIP40.
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:45 AM
Thats like a blackmail, vote this hip otherwhise no denylist anymore
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Thats like a blackmail, vote this hip otherwhise no denylist anymore
Why is it blackmail? Please explain.
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groot
There was a vote to temporarily use the helium (very centralized) denylist.
you are right, it was actually stated in the vote. the denylist will stop if HIP40 fails
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:46 AM
Say i dont like the way this HIP wants to do it but i am in favor for a denylist. Voting no would remove the denylist although i agree there has to be something against the gamers
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There was a vote to temporarily keep the helium denylist until the HIP40 vote. After the vote it’s gone, as agreed.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:47 AM
Keep in mind, this is theoretic, i havent full read the hip yet but i can imagine some people think like that
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groot
Why is it blackmail? Please explain.
it is to some extent. but it is definitely proof for the centralisation. The central team stops maintaining the list if the community does not vote in their favour
10:47
feels a bit odd
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Say i dont like the way this HIP wants to do it but i am in favor for a denylist. Voting no would remove the denylist although i agree there has to be something against the gamers
Then create another HIP. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean we should just unilaterally extend the mandate of the temporary helium denylist right?
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:48 AM
Initial thoughts for me with the current info that i have is also to vote no (dont take this personallly Neil, i really appriciate the work you put in)
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That’s fine, then come up with another solution against gaming, knowing that the helium thing won’t be there.
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groot
Then create another HIP. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean we should just unilaterally extend the mandate of the temporary helium denylist right?
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:49 AM
Well, before the demylist became public Helium already did it secretly as they found the gaming problem to become to big. Taking out the current denylist would bring back that problem for Helium
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Your HIP could be to put Helium’s denylist back in of course (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 10:50 AM
Im not saying i have the holy grail, just trying to find out the negatives for this HIP as voting is coming close as i understand
10:51
And some things sound 'tegenstrijdig' (sorry dont know the proper english word and i know you speak dutch too)
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If this hip fails, i think another vote needs to come to just keep the current method and denylist. Until some other method is worked out
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 10:51 AM
Based on the last it shouldn't tho
10:51
Or the temperature check vote
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no way this hip wont pass like all others 😄
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Im not saying i have the holy grail, just trying to find out the negatives for this HIP as voting is coming close as i understand
The current denylist goes against everything that the network supposedly stands for. The HIP40 at least maintains decentralisation as far as possible.
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if big guys jump in no one can vote against them or at least not enough HNT 😄
11:09
only if all the cheating people combine their hnt 😄
11:10
even than wont be enough cap slaps them with his wallet 😄
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molano
Doesn't work. Oops, there was an error.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 11:12 AM
yeah its been removed, the new one will be in place soon
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groot
The current denylist goes against everything that the network supposedly stands for. The HIP40 at least maintains decentralisation as far as possible.
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 11:34 AM
Do you have a idea how big of a percentage of gaming groupd have validatirs too? I dont but i know gaming is way bigger then whats being told and it wouldnt surprise me at all that there are multiple validators owned by gamers. I am aware of the x percentage needs to agree and not all but if a hard list means a bit less dectenrelised im fine with that untill poc disappears for data
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Do you have a idea how big of a percentage of gaming groupd have validatirs too? I dont but i know gaming is way bigger then whats being told and it wouldnt surprise me at all that there are multiple validators owned by gamers. I am aware of the x percentage needs to agree and not all but if a hard list means a bit less dectenrelised im fine with that untill poc disappears for data
I don't think gamers have validators. Validators invest in the network, gamers harm the network
11:46
so why invest in something you do not support?
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Do you have a idea how big of a percentage of gaming groupd have validatirs too? I dont but i know gaming is way bigger then whats being told and it wouldnt surprise me at all that there are multiple validators owned by gamers. I am aware of the x percentage needs to agree and not all but if a hard list means a bit less dectenrelised im fine with that untill poc disappears for data
Certainly not enough to disrupt HIP40 in a meaningful way. And your ‘a little less decentralized’ is closer to ‘completely centralized’. There are 3500 validators, of which a lot are operated by either StakeJoy or one of the large Validator-as-a-Service providers.
11:47
Have you done the math on how much HNT you have to stake to consistently beat HIP40?
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groot
Have you done the math on how much HNT you have to stake to consistently beat HIP40?
you just need to operate the validators, not be the staker.
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Testa
you just need to operate the validators, not be the staker.
Are you implying that the vaas operators are in bed with the gamers?
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groot
Are you implying that the vaas operators are in bed with the gamers?
no I replied to your question. no need to calculate the probability that stakers would beat HIP40. if you wanted to do that it would be much easier as a validator operator
11:50
+ you do not lose money
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11:50
no that much risk
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Do you have a idea how big of a percentage of gaming groupd have validatirs too? I dont but i know gaming is way bigger then whats being told and it wouldnt surprise me at all that there are multiple validators owned by gamers. I am aware of the x percentage needs to agree and not all but if a hard list means a bit less dectenrelised im fine with that untill poc disappears for data
Remember a cheater owned validator has to be in the consensus group to stop an earnings deny happening. When its not in the consensus group it cant enable its cheating earnings. It could in its best case allow a denied hotspot to earn for 30 mins every 1 day and 15 hours.
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So either the vaas operators are in bed with the gamers, or you have to stake your own validators to beat hip40, since the vaas operators being in bed with the gamers is very unlikely, what remains is that you have to stake yourself and thus calculate the stake required.
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groot
So either the vaas operators are in bed with the gamers, or you have to stake your own validators to beat hip40, since the vaas operators being in bed with the gamers is very unlikely, what remains is that you have to stake yourself and thus calculate the stake required.
think a bit further.. if you wanted to make money as a validator operator, you could just deny all hotspots except your own. you would get all the HNT until you get stopped, which may take days
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Testa
think a bit further.. if you wanted to make money as a validator operator, you could just deny all hotspots except your own. you would get all the HNT until you get stopped, which may take days
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 11:53 AM
thats not possible
11:53
they cant control who is in the consensus
11:53
and who would pick you as an operator?
11:53
they're fairly established now
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well all this assumes that you have the required majority in CG
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Do you know how much validators (and by that staked hnt) is required for this to work?
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that is why I say the operators have a lot of power. At the moment it is not decentralised at all. the majority of validators are operated by a handful of operators
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Testa
that is why I say the operators have a lot of power. At the moment it is not decentralised at all. the majority of validators are operated by a handful of operators
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 11:55 AM
no one single provider holds enough validators to sway the vote
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Decentralisation problems of validators is not an argument for allowing even more centralisation now is it?
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groot
Decentralisation problems of validators is not an argument for allowing even more centralisation now is it?
if you want to imply that not voting for HIP40 means voting for centralisation I have to object
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You would need, and Neil please correct me if I’m wrong, at least F validators in CG, which at the moment is 14.
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Testa
if you want to imply that not voting for HIP40 means voting for centralisation I have to object
I’m not, I’m saying that ‘validators are centralized so hip40 is no better than helium denylist’ is a bad argument.
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groot
You would need, and Neil please correct me if I’m wrong, at least F validators in CG, which at the moment is 14.
as I said, this assumes you get the required majority in the CG. if you operate enough validators this will happen eventually
11:58
or rather, much sooner than if you try it by owning the validators, which was your point
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I don't follow how you think you will be operating validators without staking. Is this assuming that other people will stake with you? If so those people will probably not be happy with you and just unstake immediately.
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Testa
as I said, this assumes you get the required majority in the CG. if you operate enough validators this will happen eventually
As far as I can remember from previous discussions the required majority is 43, all 43 need to agree to deny or it is not denied.
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groot
I don't follow how you think you will be operating validators without staking. Is this assuming that other people will stake with you? If so those people will probably not be happy with you and just unstake immediately.
yeah likely. but not really an issue if it works out. Then you have plenty of HNTs
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waveform
As far as I can remember from previous discussions the required majority is 43, all 43 need to agree to deny or it is not denied.
You just need consensus to deny a txn right, so 2f + 1. To block a denylist you will need f.
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Testa
yeah likely. but not really an issue if it works out. Then you have plenty of HNTs
Let's do the math on that; to consistently get 2F + 1 validators in CG you will need to operate at least 2/3 of the validators. There are currently 3422 validators, 2/3 of which is 2259 validators. That will require 22.5M HNT. With approximately 56K HNT a day for hotspots you will need to pull this off for a 400 days in order to cover your initial investment. I don't think we're talking about a feasible attack vector here.
12:07
Obviously if you manage to get a majority in the CG you can just award yourself all existing HST and be done with it.
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groot
Let's do the math on that; to consistently get 2F + 1 validators in CG you will need to operate at least 2/3 of the validators. There are currently 3422 validators, 2/3 of which is 2259 validators. That will require 22.5M HNT. With approximately 56K HNT a day for hotspots you will need to pull this off for a 400 days in order to cover your initial investment. I don't think we're talking about a feasible attack vector here.
only if you try to own the majority. but again: you don't have to own the validators, just operate them
facepalm 1
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You keep saying that but you are not going to operate validators without staking them. If you are using other peoples stakes and operate a vaas they will move away from you almost immediately. Let's leave it at this, I don't think your idea will work and I don't see how HIP40 will contribute to it.
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groot
You keep saying that but you are not going to operate validators without staking them. If you are using other peoples stakes and operate a vaas they will move away from you almost immediately. Let's leave it at this, I don't think your idea will work and I don't see how HIP40 will contribute to it.
yeah this goes in circles. I have answered this before. yes, you may lose all your customers. so what? if you managed to run it for a day that's more than 1M$ reward.
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Do validators have to agree unanimously or just 2f + 1?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 12:13 PM
2f+1 we thought it was all but it's not (edited)
💯 1
12:13
new hip updates will reflect this
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Great, currently it states all and that will be a lot less effective and therefore might steer people the wrong way.
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does the membership in the " Proof of Coverage Committee" come with some form of reward?
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Check to see if your hotspot is on the denylist. Contribute to joecryptotoo/denylist_checker development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Testa
does the membership in the " Proof of Coverage Committee" come with some form of reward?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 12:32 PM
no, none
12:32
we volunteer for this
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nice. are the hotspot addresses automatically submitted to the " Proof of Coverage Committee"?
12:33
😉
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This just scans the issues in the https://github.com/helium/denylist for the address you put in the hotspots.txt file
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
12:34
So you can go comment if your hotspot shows up there
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JoeCrypto
This just scans the issues in the https://github.com/helium/denylist for the address you put in the hotspots.txt file
I know was just joking. because it will mostly (just mostly, I know it has a legitimate purpose which hopefully will not be needed because the committee does a good job) be used by gamers I think
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It's to alert you when Karen starts running her mouth.
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amazing who short python code can be
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Right?
12:38
It could probably use some error checking, but the only errors I encountered was from hitting the API too often and that was easily fixed by adding a sleep.
12:39
It could also be further improved by adding some kind of state tracking so it doesn't alert you about the same issues over and over again as well as some method to actually notify you via email, chat, or whatever.
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Testa
I don't think gamers have validators. Validators invest in the network, gamers harm the network
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 12:58 PM
I actually think there are. In my opinion gaming is way bigger then we see on the top. My assumption is that there are entire groups who actually game with poc to get into validators for the 'easy' money then. Looking at previous halts and updates for validators its clear that there are quite some validator owners who are not verry active in the channel, maybe some of them have set and forget as they only look at the gaming part and then make it a safe heaven on validator??? Keep in mind, this is all just assumption from my side and i have 0 proof for this
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groot
Certainly not enough to disrupt HIP40 in a meaningful way. And your ‘a little less decentralized’ is closer to ‘completely centralized’. There are 3500 validators, of which a lot are operated by either StakeJoy or one of the large Validator-as-a-Service providers.
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:00 PM
Im quite sure you know the size of the poc gaming, you are a smart guy and clearly see it too. If needed then no centralisation but hopefully get all the gamers out.
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waveform
Remember a cheater owned validator has to be in the consensus group to stop an earnings deny happening. When its not in the consensus group it cant enable its cheating earnings. It could in its best case allow a denied hotspot to earn for 30 mins every 1 day and 15 hours.
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:00 PM
Thats actually a lot less then i thought, interesting that its so short to be in CG.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Thats actually a lot less then i thought, interesting that its so short to be in CG.
What I said is now invalid as it was based on all consensus not 2f+1
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I have some ideas about the size of gaming, similar to everyone. I do not think that 'the gamers' in general have the capacity to consistently get 14 validators into the CG if they work as a group let alone a subset of the gamers.
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waveform
What I said is now invalid as it was based on all consensus not 2f+1
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:02 PM
I am aware they need tbe 2f+1 in CG to vote yes/no on potential lists
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I am aware they need tbe 2f+1 in CG to vote yes/no on potential lists
No, they need 2F + 1 in CG to vote on a potential transaction to deny. That is every single transaction, not once to enable a list that stays on until a new consensus drops the list. (edited)
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groot
No, they need 2F + 1 in CG to vote on a potential transaction to deny. That is every single transaction, not once to enable a list that stays on until a new consensus drops the list. (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:04 PM
I wamt to say 'you are kidding, right' but i assume you arent. Put more load on them to come to a agreement on every transaction sounds like a major workload increase for them, combined with the upcoming workload of light hotspots. Are validators even up for that😅
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After all the validators do to validate a transaction it isn't a burden to check it against a list. For example, your hotspot checks every incoming witness against a list and that's on a raspberry pi.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I wamt to say 'you are kidding, right' but i assume you arent. Put more load on them to come to a agreement on every transaction sounds like a major workload increase for them, combined with the upcoming workload of light hotspots. Are validators even up for that😅
Dont forget they are doing challenges as well alwaysthinking
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They need to come to consensus on the transaction anyway, whether that is 'invalid' vs 'valid' or with three options, 'denied'... It might even decrease the workload for them as they can early exit the validation if they find it on the denylist. (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:12 PM
Interesting facts, damn i hate english isnt my native language😅 So if the hip passes vote (wich sounds like it will become a battle of the big wallets since validators are involved) we as community need to hope validators will use lists from community members (i still fail to see the incentive for them as return for the big workload they get) and that CG always agrees on using the proper lists. Current denylist will be removed no matter what the outcome is. Validators who have some problems already will get extra load (agreeying on every transaction in the world is something else then local list on PI for only closeby signals) Side question, if community members manage there own lists and say the validators use like 5 different lists. If one list has a false positive on my miner for example, how would i know wich of the 5 lists has flagged me?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 1:14 PM
it grabs all the denylists and merges them into 1 list
13:14
to check again
13:14
(from its config)
13:15
so it just says is it on the list (validator side) not that it has to check each one for it
13:16
and then the list your on will be shown in explorer
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You seriously overestimate the workload it is to check a transaction to a list. "every transaction in the world" is exactly the same as they do today so that's not an argument. The incentive they have is that they want a healthy network, exactly the same as today.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 1:16 PM
wish the hip updates were out now (edited)
13:16
it explains all this 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
so it just says is it on the list (validator side) not that it has to check each one for it
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:16 PM
Yeah but if my 'legit' spot is false positive on one of those lists, how would i know where to try and get it removed.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 1:16 PM
you would see what lists your on via explorer/app
13:16
and go request removal with that list
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:16 PM
Ahh, that makes sense
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 1:17 PM
there will also be a lookup service too
13:17
the new changes describe a new aggregator service
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HIP40 is so much more transparent than the atrocity that is in use today. Since denied txns still end up on chain you can also verify as a list creator that a hotspot stopped doing bad things and remove them from your list for example. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the new changes describe a new aggregator service
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:21 PM
Will you release a vid about it when the new documents are up?
13:21
I rather have a video to listen too then read documents😅
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 1:22 PM
Haha we can try and get an ama sorted
13:22
We need more of those
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:23 PM
Think im gonna let it rest for now and wait for the new style to be fully done.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/13/2022 1:23 PM
yep, days away now lol
13:23
90% of its done, just one last section due this week 🙂
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Maybe add a section (or 2 lines) about the sheer amount of HNT that is required if gamers wished to use validators to break hip40 as that seems to be a common thought. Or mention it somewhere in your vid. (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 1:26 PM
To be fair that isnt my main concern about the hip.
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Wasn’t specifically aimed at you I have heard it several times.
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I miss some parts here also actually. But I'll wait for whatever BFGNeil will release. Mostly how validators work now (never really digged into it) and how the denylist process will work once moved to validators. I am indeed not worried about the additional load for this. More worried about the extra work they have once light hotspot (FW) comes around. But thats's another discussion.
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molano
I miss some parts here also actually. But I'll wait for whatever BFGNeil will release. Mostly how validators work now (never really digged into it) and how the denylist process will work once moved to validators. I am indeed not worried about the additional load for this. More worried about the extra work they have once light hotspot (FW) comes around. But thats's another discussion.
The way validators will work, we think, should be fairly simple. We don’t want to be too prescriptive on validator operators. Given a xor filter binary (as we have today for the challenger based filter) a consensus group validator can mark an individual witness receipt as “not to be rewarded” in block metadata. If sufficient (2f+1) cg members agree, the block metadata will reflect all these “votes”. Later, during rewards time, this block metadata is evaluated and those that have a consensus on votes will not be rewarded. They will still appear in the receipt as “valid” since the challenger still thought they were valid from a PoC perspective. How the filter.bin file exists on the validator is out of scope of the implementation. If the community generates tools to create, merge, manage, etc these, that’s awesome. The advantage of this is that validator operators can decide on their own list management and all votes are public. So they have an incentive not to be “mean” (edited)
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Says the gamer... sounds like this HIP is on the right track 🤔
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Just give us your denied HS names, the mods can take a look at those and cleary state why they were banned. Otherwise stop whining, you're caught, you've gambled and lost.. next! (edited)
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Well seeing how this is all fake, no need for you to be in here anymore.
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herbie thenetherlands 02/13/2022 11:30 PM
oké good morning maby u can help me just was on that helium telegram but bo help only 2000 scammers in my pm with helium names and stuff so I have some hs that I think need to look at
23:31
I am good here then
23:31
got 1 bobcat with I app 3 dbi antenne getting signals up tp 200 km plus
23:31
and a sensecap alsow
23:31
3 like thise
23:31
I have the screens were can I send those to please
23:33
would love to talk to some from helium
23:33
here in pm I don't care I just want a fair network
23:40
like this
23:41
I hs is 108 km a way rsssi 91 dbm nsr 5.8 invalled
23:41
105 km 103 rssi 12 dbi snr invalled
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/13/2022 11:42 PM
If you suspect someone from gaming you can create a issue at https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues Add proof why you think he is gaming and the miner/miners will be reviewed
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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herbie thenetherlands 02/13/2022 11:42 PM
106 km 103rssi 5dbi snr
23:43
of I can show then a screen lol that dude has 3dbi and getting over 200 km
23:43
lol
23:43
al the 3 hs there
23:43
2 bobcat 1 sensecap
23:45
maar dankje man miniterror
23:45
leuke naam trouwens
23:45
zal even daad heen gaan man
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Fizzy
Well seeing how this is all fake, no need for you to be in here anymore.
i actually have a question do u mean that cheater or gamers have no right to stay in community?
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GOTYABITCH
i actually have a question do u mean that cheater or gamers have no right to stay in community?
I mean, he has no business here because to him, it is all fake. so no need for him to argue and waste his and everyone else time here.
💯 2
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Fizzy
I mean, he has no business here because to him, it is all fake. so no need for him to argue and waste his and everyone else time here.
if u mean that then all good.
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captainhindsight 02/14/2022 12:57 AM
O lordy - are you still ranting pointlessly?
01:07
hmmzzzz
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Theory is that someone is just re-transmitting tokens...
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
define "people" and why u hate cheater so much? even they dont cheat u earning also wont go up
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do u really care about coverage? people join in here because of the high return of this project
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
i am not saying that i want to become a billionaire in this project, i just want to clear that people invest in this project have right to stay in this community even they r cheater, ban them r not the final solution, they should start thinking of why they cheat then improve the system
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GOTYABITCH
i am not saying that i want to become a billionaire in this project, i just want to clear that people invest in this project have right to stay in this community even they r cheater, ban them r not the final solution, they should start thinking of why they cheat then improve the system
They cheat because they want more. How do you solve greed? You can not, it is human nature to want more than your other fellow man. (edited)
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Fizzy
They cheat because they want more. How do you solve greed? You can not, it is human nature to want more than your other fellow man. (edited)
true and they invest more, if helium wants the real coverage, they should make the system right rather than banning all and making HS totally rubbish
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GOTYABITCH
true and they invest more, if helium wants the real coverage, they should make the system right rather than banning all and making HS totally rubbish
Ok so 2 things. 1. Already have real coverage in places that will want to use the technology. China is NOT one of those places it seems, I can go into more detail on this if need be, 2. Like many people, talking about what is perceived as a problem is easy. But offering a solution that is not just saying "They should do this" almost never happens. With that said, what is your solution to "make the system right"? (edited)
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gps, banning wallet rather than machines
06:48
either one
06:51
tbh i dont care about denylist or any improvement, back to my original question, it seems that cheat guy not talking anymore i guess he got kicked.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/14/2022 6:52 AM
You'd rather centralised control of funds? (Banning wallets?)
06:52
And GPS was tried, it doesn't work well
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no wonder there is not much negative comments because the community kicks them out
🤔 1
facepalm 1
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06:54
its better than making thousands of miner useless and lost
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/14/2022 6:54 AM
They're only useless if they cheat
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is it good for ESG
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GOTYABITCH
its better than making thousands of miner useless and lost
And hundreds-of-thousands that still have yet to be born/manufactured that will be cheaper to produce at cost over the next few years.
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i think the best way is leading people to do the right thing
07:02
maybe u guys should open an new hip i really think banning cheater's reward would be a better choice
07:05
people complained about cheaters steal their money, than we take the money from cheaters then give it back to legit miners
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/14/2022 7:05 AM
we cant control wallets/funds
07:06
that would be centralised control over funds
07:06
not going to happen lol
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make a smart contract
🤡 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/14/2022 7:11 AM
Just make a smart contract, cool, where? Remember helium doesn't have smart contracts
07:14
never
07:14
they need to be created via the hip19 process
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
vs paying for a new hotspot? I know I am not that cheap, guy would be better off just getting a new hotspot.
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If you have more hotspots in one location, can they get banned by helium?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/14/2022 11:49 AM
its possible
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They make invalid witness with each other
11:49
and hex rating is reduced
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QQQ
They make invalid witness with each other
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/14/2022 11:49 AM
GitHub is where people build software. More than 73 million people use GitHub to discover, fork, and contribute to over 200 million projects.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
its possible
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 12:07 PM
Yeah, but not for the reason of "too many in one location". (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/14/2022 12:08 PM
ah i thought he meant all in the same house type deal
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
ah i thought he meant all in the same house type deal
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 12:09 PM
Even still. Placing hotspots in a dumb manner is not bannable. 😉
12:10
Now all in the same house, but altered metadata/attenuated/spoofed/etc would be something else altogether
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but how do you define spoofing?
12:37
there should be some clear rules for everyone to see
12:37
If you do this and this and this, your hotspot will get banned
12:37
and some guides on how to place your hotspot and what you shouldn't do
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
they already do. but rules are needed. have a look at the denylist repo. HS are added because of an incorrect location. So if you can't update the location immediately you might get added. seriously? It's not like the app works all the time to update the location
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QQQ
but how do you define spoofing?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 12:46 PM
Location spoofing: The miner is in a different location than the asserted location. Simple.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Location spoofing: The miner is in a different location than the asserted location. Simple.
I think most of the miners are in a different location
12:52
you can't select the exact location in the app
12:52
at some point it was asserting the hotspot 50-200 meters away
12:52
not sure
12:52
but it was a huge error margin
12:53
other times the gps doesn't show the exact location
12:53
is this considered spoofing?
12:53
Most people just click next , next next without double checking
12:53
🙂
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QQQ
you can't select the exact location in the app
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 12:54 PM
You can actually. (outside of some bugs of course lol )
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QQQ
other times the gps doesn't show the exact location
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 12:55 PM
You don't need GPS. You can place manually.
12:55
And there is a difference between a few meters off and kilometers off. 😉
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yes but what difference is considered acceptable?
13:03
where are the rules?
13:03
if a hotspot is providing coverage, does it matter if it's location is wrong? (edited)
13:05
I think spoofing shouldn't be banned and only be punished with invalid witnesses, until there are some clear rules about it
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QQQ
where are the rules?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 1:20 PM
There are no rules. There is just probability. Larger distance = large chance of invalid.
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QQQ
I think spoofing shouldn't be banned and only be punished with invalid witnesses, until there are some clear rules about it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 1:22 PM
Why would we not ban hotspots when it is clear that they are location spoofing in an effort to game the system and falsify coverage areas. That is a direct threat to the legitimacy of the network.
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captainhindsight 02/14/2022 3:53 PM
Imagine for a moment you are a cheater, and you realise your cheating days are coming to an end. You've invested a great deal of money in hardware, banking on the assumption that when you couldn't use that hardware to steal rewards from the network, you could at least sell the hardware, or even carry on using it legitimately. And then you discover that isn't the case and you'll be left with a mass of useless equipment and poorer than when you started. Would you be brazen enough to rage against this HIP with nonsensical arguments in a bid to cut your losses?
💯 1
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captainhindsight
Imagine for a moment you are a cheater, and you realise your cheating days are coming to an end. You've invested a great deal of money in hardware, banking on the assumption that when you couldn't use that hardware to steal rewards from the network, you could at least sell the hardware, or even carry on using it legitimately. And then you discover that isn't the case and you'll be left with a mass of useless equipment and poorer than when you started. Would you be brazen enough to rage against this HIP with nonsensical arguments in a bid to cut your losses?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 3:57 PM
Hell yes. I would carefully sow doubt, add conspiracy theories, and delay action as long as possible to reap as many rewards as I could, all while modifying tactics to obfuscate my cheating.
👍 2
💯 1
15:57
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hell yes. I would carefully sow doubt, add conspiracy theories, and delay action as long as possible to reap as many rewards as I could, all while modifying tactics to obfuscate my cheating.
captainhindsight 02/14/2022 3:58 PM
Nah - nobody would ever be dumb enough to imagine anybody would ever believe them 😏 (edited)
😄 1
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captainhindsight
Nah - nobody would ever be dumb enough to imagine anybody would ever believe them 😏 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 3:59 PM
Have you met the average human? 😉 lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Have you met the average human? 😉 lol
captainhindsight 02/14/2022 4:00 PM
I've met quite a few below average 😏
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captainhindsight
I've met quite a few below average 😏
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 4:00 PM
oof... same. lol
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captainhindsight 02/14/2022 4:02 PM
I mean, people do realise, don't they, that the Jedi mind trick isn't real? 😄
16:02
These are not the hotspots you're looking for?
😄 1
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captainhindsight
I mean, people do realise, don't they, that the Jedi mind trick isn't real? 😄
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 4:04 PM
Oh it's real... it works on the weak minded, remember? 😉
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captainhindsight 02/14/2022 4:06 PM
Oh! These are not the hotspots we are looking for - wibble 🥴 What day is it? Are we at your house? Are those my feet?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 4:10 PM
"You may ask yourself, "What is that beautiful house?" You may ask yourself, "Where does that highway go to?" And you may ask yourself, "Am I right? Am I wrong?" And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"
🎈 4
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captainhindsight 02/14/2022 4:11 PM
Choon!
16:12
Same as it ever was...
❤️ 2
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 4:13 PM
partyparrot 1
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What is TNT?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/15/2022 3:48 AM
testnet token
03:48
it has no value
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oh
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If several devices are connected to one wallet, will it be subject to spoofing rules and will the device be in denylist ??
👎 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Does anyone have the link to poc and denylist rules ??
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RG
Does anyone have the link to poc and denylist rules ??
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/15/2022 9:13 AM
That isn't published anywhere at this time
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RG
If several devices are connected to one wallet, will it be subject to spoofing rules and will the device be in denylist ??
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/15/2022 9:13 AM
There isn't any rules around wallets
09:13
Just don't edit meta data and you're fine basically
09:14
Don't fake results or stuff beacons with fake witnesses and you're good
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Don't fake results or stuff beacons with fake witnesses and you're good
Ok.no I don't setuped my device by fake parameters
👍 1
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Has entered the blacklist, how to do?
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elsa
Has entered the blacklist, how to do?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/16/2022 12:14 AM
Info Author(s): @BFGNeil, @anthonyra, @elontusk Start Date: 2021-09-27 Category: Technical, Economic Original HIP PR: #284 Tracking Issue: #285 (this) Status: In Discussion Rendered view https://gi...
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This one looks peculiar but yes they can. A very good setup can reach 200+km in the right circumstances. (edited)
👆 1
06:26
related, and stranger IMHO
06:33
all the HS in this area seem sus to me
06:34
it's like multiple clusters spread out on fake locations within the same bigger area? (edited)
06:40
This one is similar to the one @GOTYABITCH reported first. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11gae77RHVdH2cPozxstNzNHXHMT42DcEv2aPqAaj1qwZNKVbzU
06:43
It would be nice to use a tool to map out all the clusters here....
07:28
All the suspects are Cal-Chip
07:33
Seems like they are all linked to this account as well? 51 HS. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/149UDS6cHwDjqGCdohuoPkxf6YDfUoRb637koy1gcWwkegAvvaV (edited)
07:35
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11McuXZV6ooMc6YcCX4T8ZcXaNvy9mnz4tJob3WNwt5WrdKBbYJ/activity witnessed beacon from 12km distance with -96dBm RSSI and 10dB SNR with a 1.2dBi antenna. Is that possible?
07:44
oh... and their Listen addresses seem to be all /ip4/38.108.105.1...tcp/44158 which according to Maxmind belongs in Queens, NY (where some of them randomly witnessed a single HS) (edited)
07:48
Does anyone have a tool to export all these b58 addresses of the wallet in one go?
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Another similar account with 61 (Cal-Chip only/mostly?) hotspots and clusters of them in the same mountain area: https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/149ZQqKT5i3F5tKGDKULPV9jv17PR1pWBTrQudc4eVqtGDuMKmC/hotspots (edited)
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another IP associated with one of these accounts; 24.193.31.15...cp/44167 which is located in Brooklyn, NY
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I figured out how to extract the data from API with python, so have submitted addition request now: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1057
Hotspot b58 Addresses 112PPJBAb4XYrqmwgS7zGpeSqRBqjZazUGsk4ns9F2YMeY4tADoR 11znfUrjfAwY8ZGwZAcdzMkgvjy9geH2sbS2JNvEkSLNDFZCL6r 112izLD9UkcQSYbx9ozP1Tjzc4XGuX1WUmonRG9Xp1wzWd7mQuJg 11odMDe4eW53k5dXZ...
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Actually I have an SQL query for https://etl.dewi.org/ to analyse such clusters... unfortunately it is still down.
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any new list or still the second one active
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cryptoz
any new list or still the second one active
Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 02/16/2022 1:25 PM
Latest version is from 12 Feb
21:34
So many clusters popped up about 3-4 weeks ago in this region....
21:36
All PanterX
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/16/2022 9:38 PM
GitHub is where people build software. More than 73 million people use GitHub to discover, fork, and contribute to over 200 million projects.
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人呢
22:46
能把我的机子移出黑名单吗 多多少少有点问题
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HI MEN I haven't had a meal for several days since my hot spot was blacklisted
🤨 1
coolcry 1
🤣 4
🍰 1
22:54
吃不饱 肚子饿
22:57
群里的老弟呢
22:58
出来聊天啊 群里中文说的挺溜的 那个点球点 你给这里的老外直接说中文让他们去翻译下
22:59
👀
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HI administrator My brother said you blocked his account
23:13
To be honest HNT made me money but I didn't want to quit like this
23:14
This is a decentralized project of block connection
23:18
After all, we are not the Communist Party
coolstory 4
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What is/are the hotspot names we are talking about?
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Is this account suspicious? 14rwvCMHvUrk3yFdLzRjqpsU2FzAzpPQwZ24cpWJuodHuTkAfww Looks like an account With only signal sniffers. Take a look at “puny ebony pig” which was checked with mappers it seems the hotspot is not even there
01:37
A lot of the hotspots already on deny list, other ones have 1000 or more 7d average beacons what seems to be not quite right
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yes, I don't see how this one can be possible, witnessing beacons 305km away: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112TypaABowBEhACo9iM4fJ3FyPiEdGgRQ71Ya71RJ3tDm99QZ3y
01:46
All hotspots on that account are relayed
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Kuleramme
yes, I don't see how this one can be possible, witnessing beacons 305km away: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112TypaABowBEhACo9iM4fJ3FyPiEdGgRQ71Ya71RJ3tDm99QZ3y
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 1:47 AM
It's the Netherlands, they are particularly flat.
01:48
The hotspots in their wallet are earning average too
01:48
except for Haddock
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This Puny ebony pig is suspisious from day 1
01:51
It was nr 1 in hotspot earnings of the world when it just came online
01:51
Its being mapped and no signal picked up
01:51
Looks like signal sniffer
01:53
Even knowing the first batch of the cotx miners came without a bandpass filter in why they are overall so bad in listening, but those ones do the opposite
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Then it’s in NL and not Brussels
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Is there any way you can convince me that one is OK? @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 😂 (edited)
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I cannot
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Kuleramme
Is there any way you can convince me that one is OK? @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 😂 (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 2:07 AM
Position can be 200-300m of without risking invalids
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Position can be 200-300m of without risking invalids
You didn't look at the transaction before typing that, did you?
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Kuleramme
You didn't look at the transaction before typing that, did you?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 2:08 AM
I thought you were referring to Haddock
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well.. he witnessed that transaction... the transaction (participants) was in question (edited)
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Kuleramme
well.. he witnessed that transaction... the transaction (participants) was in question (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 2:08 AM
Not only he, a bunch of others close to him too
02:09
And they are from different wallets too
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none of that explains those few within a limited area witnessing this very remote beacon like that. wallets has nothing to do with that. anyone can have multiple wallets (edited)
💯 1
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Kuleramme
none of that explains those few within a limited area witnessing this very remote beacon like that. wallets has nothing to do with that. anyone can have multiple wallets (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 3:20 AM
Neither does it prove that they are spoofing too (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Neither does it prove that they are spoofing too (edited)
No, I simply wonder how this can be explained?
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Kuleramme
No, I simply wonder how this can be explained?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 4:01 AM
Not sure, again could be height. If you are still concerned, feel free to report them
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hangjghnv
HI MEN I haven't had a meal for several days since my hot spot was blacklisted
Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 02/17/2022 5:01 AM
Please don't overexaggerate. You can at least eat rice and veggies.
🤣 1
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
It's the Netherlands, they are particularly flat.
Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 02/17/2022 5:02 AM
Yup, biggest mountain we have, is a speed bump compared to the mountains in the Alps 😂 😂
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My hotspots are on denylist . How can i solve it?
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janahi
My hotspots are on denylist . How can i solve it?
👆 1
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:08 PM
can we go ahead and get this to a vote to, clean the whole system up a little at one shot.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 5:11 PM
Haha
😆 1
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
can we go ahead and get this to a vote to, clean the whole system up a little at one shot.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:11 PM
Last I heard we're still waiting on @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io to get some last changes in the HIP?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 5:11 PM
Yeah soon
17:11
Still waiting on that security bit
👍 4
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:11 PM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yeah soon
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:13 PM
TY for all you do dude, love the YT channel. 😉
partyparrot 3
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Still waiting on that security bit
OptimusPrime 02/17/2022 5:36 PM
get rid of those cheating farms ASAP
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 6:15 PM
On it partyparrot
🎉 3
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Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
02:07
I wonder if GitHub has an issues limit. Lol
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I bought a few of the hotspots on the list and repositioned them. Will this remove the denylist?if it post on the github
02:10
Is the process automatic or not?
👎 1
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JoeCrypto
Did you expect anything else? 😂
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what do we have here.... (edited)
04:06
Decent Aegean Swift
04:07
Great Felt Sheep
04:07
Wobbly Beige Sidewinder
04:07
all from Zhangzhou Changtai County
04:07
all deeper connect
04:07
this smells fishy
04:09
6 witnesses, almost 1.8hnt each /day (edited)
04:09
alot of beaconing
04:09
like 10-20 per day
04:09
ill add to deny list
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any moderator here?
04:24
should helium stop them
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What's hummingbird?
04:38
OK, too many makers around these days. 😉
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molano
OK, too many makers around these days. 😉
OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 4:51 AM
Do you think if it is possible that there is no record of miner transfer on the chain?
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Should not be possible in my opinion...
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OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 5:06 AM
weird. saw a miner in a different wallet previously but no transfer info in the explorer.
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OptimusPrime
weird. saw a miner in a different wallet previously but no transfer info in the explorer.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:06 AM
whats the hotspot address?
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:09 AM
No transfers
05:09
and the blockchain doesn't lie
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OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 5:11 AM
Ty.
👍 1
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GOTYABITCH
should helium stop them
Where did your message go to?
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Sloth
Did you expect anything else? 😂
I knew the denylist was a bad idea the second I heard of it.
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👍 2
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Not expecting this to be different with validators using random lists. Except for that guy that managed to find 100 locations in his house to photograph his panther(every time with the same disconnected utp cable..) I wonder about all those other removal requests. Are these really legit users? If so, then damn.. (edited)
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JoeCrypto
I knew the denylist was a bad idea the second I heard of it.
captainhindsight 02/18/2022 11:03 AM
It's a brilliant idea
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Sloth
Not expecting this to be different with validators using random lists. Except for that guy that managed to find 100 locations in his house to photograph his panther(every time with the same disconnected utp cable..) I wonder about all those other removal requests. Are these really legit users? If so, then damn.. (edited)
100 locations in his house to photograph his panther(every time with the same disconnected utp cable..)
Is that in GitHub as an issue? I'd love to see that!
11:46
under different nicknames
🤣 1
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@molano Here a good place to ask about appeals
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molano
Sure
What's about the current processing times for removal request? Individual is asking, claims him and his friends bought 7 that then showed on the app after the update. I'm not making any guarantee's I can help. He noted they posted about 7 days ago. (edited)
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DMan
What's about the current processing times for removal request? Individual is asking, claims him and his friends bought 7 that then showed on the app after the update. I'm not making any guarantee's I can help. He noted they posted about 7 days ago. (edited)
To start with, I just sign of course whatever has been decided to add/remove by the Helium team and if 'I can live with the list'. As you have noticed, the list gets (under normal circumstances - Lava Lempur was an exception) updated approximately once a week. While all issues will stay open during that period, it does not mean that nobody is looking at them and presumably taking action on those items. So the best you they can do is indeed wait until the list is updated and verify if 1. they are removed from the list, and 2. if not removed, that the issue is still open. If the issue is still open, they will have to wait another round unfortunately sinc probably people are still looking into it. If it's closed and they are not removed from the list: for now all they can do is open another issue with stronger evidence. The process is not perfect right now, I know. Hence this HIP40 of course...
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molano
To start with, I just sign of course whatever has been decided to add/remove by the Helium team and if 'I can live with the list'. As you have noticed, the list gets (under normal circumstances - Lava Lempur was an exception) updated approximately once a week. While all issues will stay open during that period, it does not mean that nobody is looking at them and presumably taking action on those items. So the best you they can do is indeed wait until the list is updated and verify if 1. they are removed from the list, and 2. if not removed, that the issue is still open. If the issue is still open, they will have to wait another round unfortunately sinc probably people are still looking into it. If it's closed and they are not removed from the list: for now all they can do is open another issue with stronger evidence. The process is not perfect right now, I know. Hence this HIP40 of course...
Thank you, I’ll let him know.
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Has there been any considerations for using mappers.helium for either an additional validation data source, or prehaps in the future as the source of truth for banlist ?
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von
Has there been any considerations for using mappers.helium for either an additional validation data source, or prehaps in the future as the source of truth for banlist ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 4:45 AM
The problem is that mappers are also not trustable
04:46
We would need #hip-22-diy-concentrators to pass, before we consider using "golden mappers"
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@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I'm not familiar with hip 22 (more reading to do!)
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😂 . I see what you guys mean about somone posting pictures at different places in their home now.... taking photos with same camera but creating different github accounts per issue. https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1277 & https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1278 & https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1279 (edited)
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von
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 I'm not familiar with hip 22 (more reading to do!)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 5:36 AM
It's a hip for secure concentrators, this would help immensely to make hotspots and mappers secure
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Kuleramme
😂 . I see what you guys mean about somone posting pictures at different places in their home now.... taking photos with same camera but creating different github accounts per issue. https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1277 & https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1278 & https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1279 (edited)
Rofl... the photo's still have the GPS meta data in there... fail!
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von
Rofl... the photo's still have the GPS meta data in there... fail!
Make sure to leave a message for them with evidence
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can you leave private info for them.. otherwise I'm kind of telling the gamer how to avoid it.
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They have 24 hotspots
05:49
Least the denylist people won't let them off so easy with some proof
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image time stamps between the two are 2 minutes as well..
05:51
must travel fast!
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Does anyone know why they are currently not processing any open removal/addition requests? Last issue they closed was like 9 days ago
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I think they have kind of messed up.... banning too much in some situations and not banning others that should have been banned. Result is a ton of issues being submitted for both removals and additions now that people are suddenly aware of this denylist.
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Yeah i think so too, the reason why some people are submitting addition request are sometimes incredible, i looked through some of them and was able to immediately identify that this are legitimate hotspots. I just think that giving this power to a few people, especially a company which represents themselves as “decentralized” is not ok
06:20
And its unfair for this legitimate hotspots, that the dewi is not even looking through the removal request
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I would interpret most addition-requests as suspect submissions that should be looked into and not guaranteed gaming.... same way as removal requests can be rather stupid like those I mentioned above.
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Absolutely yeah
06:21
But it currently seems like they ban every addition they receive
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Well, yes. I am convinced they did so for the first batch. Copy-paste whatever they got. Mine is perfect example of it. The response I got from a couple of guys on the Helium team did nothing to disprove that.... and the signers from community don't do their own checks either. They just sign the denylist trusting Helium guys did a proper review. (edited)
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Ours too, only reason was they got installed in such a short time. They didn’t even think about that maybe there is a company behind these hotspots which planned for months to have them deployed in this short time
06:25
I just hope they start reviewing removal request again soon
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MLK
I just hope they start reviewing removal request again soon
Anything on the list? Not between minutes? (edited)
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MLK
What?
Just kidding 🤪
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Don’t play with my feelings 😂
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Is anyone from the committee on here? And can maybe explain what they are currently doing? And why they suddenly stopped working?
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Their response is they do it in batches or so... ~weekly
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I hope so
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MLK
Is anyone from the committee on here? And can maybe explain what they are currently doing? And why they suddenly stopped working?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:43 AM
It's not a committee thing , the current list isn't run by one
06:43
It's helium Inc that run the current deny list
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.... and from helium there is 1 guy processing the issues.
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*”not processing” but yeah (edited)
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Kuleramme
.... and from helium there is 1 guy processing the issues.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:49 AM
1 team member to approve the pr/make it yes
06:49
but then its signed and approved (edited)
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the others just sign. don't review
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:50 AM
they should review
06:50
do you just sign documents?
06:50
I would be very much against signee's not checking them
06:50
even more reason to get 40 in if thats the case
06:50
because anyone can PR
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malone said he'd just sign pretty mch (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:50 AM
we saw that the other day
06:51
a community member raised a pr
06:51
helium approved it
06:51
and then it was signed
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Not talking about the PRs that had well-explained reasons. The issues prior to that had no reasoning attached. Not on github - and I would bet they (he) have no documented reasoning or review material in any internal records for why they (he) accepted addition-issues into the denylist a week ago (edited)
06:53
multisign signers/reviewers just got a csv with thousands of addresses and no data to determine why they are on the list or not. they just sign (edited)
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Kuleramme
multisign signers/reviewers just got a csv with thousands of addresses and no data to determine why they are on the list or not. they just sign (edited)
Is there a solution?
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Fizzy
Is there a solution?
Sure. More reviewers doing thorough reviews with documented findings that signers can check before signing. Suspots.com has a number of behaviours you check for, and additions to denylist should at the very least also be categorized like that. It would be useful when the removal request is submitted for another review.
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Kuleramme
Sure. More reviewers doing thorough reviews with documented findings that signers can check before signing. Suspots.com has a number of behaviours you check for, and additions to denylist should at the very least also be categorized like that. It would be useful when the removal request is submitted for another review.
What's the incentive? Why would a volunteer start from scratch and spend, 10, 20, 30 mins of their life deep diving a single hotspot. It only take a few mins for anyone to cry wolf, and there could be many many little boys crying wolf (edited)
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You don't want to provide too much information on how you determined it is cheating because that would make circumvention simple. I think categories would certainly be possible without giving away too much. (edited)
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groot
You don't want to provide too much information on how you determined it is cheating because that would make circumvention simple. I think categories would certainly be possible without giving away too much. (edited)
From what I've learned this past week looking into this, it's not all that difficult already since packet forwarders are permitted.
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Kuleramme
From what I've learned this past week looking into this, it's not all that difficult already since packet forwarders are permitted.
What about dedicating 1% of all hotspot rewards to a pool that pays those reviewers?
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Has it been discussed about having hotspots that are on the deny list to have them not count towards the transmit scale in their area? I’m getting hammered by a dozen hotspots in my area that I’ve reported and have been added to the denylist but they still count towards my res5 transmit scale.
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Fizzy
What about dedicating 1% of all hotspot rewards to a pool that pays those reviewers?
Sure, if they would be doing the reviews properly for a change
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Kuleramme
Sure, if they would be doing the reviews properly for a change
Well, if only 80% of the network agrees. There was major backlash and misinformation from the 0.9% challenges moving to validators. (edited)
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Fizzy
Well, if only 80% of the network agrees. There was major backlash and misinformation from the 0.9% challenges moving to validators. (edited)
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groot
You don't want to provide too much information on how you determined it is cheating because that would make circumvention simple. I think categories would certainly be possible without giving away too much. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 8:39 AM
I like this, what something like spoofing,farm,stuffing,other
08:40
Although any changes now are futile if 40 takes over
08:40
What's the benefit
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Although any changes now are futile if 40 takes over
I suppose HIP40 is actually great for this, assuming that the lists that people are going to create are seperated by type. So one (or more) list for spoofers, one for stuffers, etc.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 8:43 AM
I'd hope the list provider details a not too revealing summary of how they're selecting hotspots on the same site they have a lookup tool, like how email reputation is done currently
08:43
I also like the idea of backing this hip up with software, an open source list management project they can download and use
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Just add a limit to how many witnesses give rewards and you limit a good deal of gaming + incentivize rural deployments
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In my opinion we shouldn't focus to much on the current denylist implementation but instead focus the effort on getting HIP40 out there. It's better in every way.
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groot
In my opinion we shouldn't focus to much on the current denylist implementation but instead focus the effort on getting HIP40 out there. It's better in every way.
For those wrongfully on the list, the current implementation is quite important....
08:46
I get where you're coming from though. As long as you're not on the list, you're fine
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On a case by case basis, of course, but it's not worth it to spend much energy on getting the governance of the current list changed.
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Kuleramme
I get where you're coming from though. As long as you're not on the list, you're fine
If you're on the list and do a sufficiently supported pull request (versus one of 9000 issues), I'm sure you're taken of within a reasonable timeframe.
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groot
If you're on the list and do a sufficiently supported pull request (versus one of 9000 issues), I'm sure you're taken of within a reasonable timeframe.
The problem is we don't know what could possibly warrant a ban on a legitimately deployed HS, so don't know what info to provide to refute it other than taking a couple of pictures of its deployment.
08:50
what is "sufficiently supported"?
08:50
the process for getting on the list is totally bogus
08:50
and the process for getting off it is vague
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If it was me I would map it (using a mapper), take some pictures and submit it as a PR.
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Dude! 99.99% of the owners don't have a mapper
08:52
i didn't know what a mapper was until i got on the denylist and did research
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Neither do I but you asked me what sufficiently supported meant, if it was my hotspot this is what I would do.
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you can't possibly require everyone to purchase a mapper to get off the list
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Kuleramme
you can't possibly require everyone to purchase a mapper to get off the list
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 8:52 AM
its not required
08:53
just an idea suggested
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Kuleramme
Just add a limit to how many witnesses give rewards and you limit a good deal of gaming + incentivize rural deployments
Soooo, #hip-42-beacon-witness-ratio-witness-reward-limit ?
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You seem to misunderstand me, it is not a requirement just something I suggested as a possibility.
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let me rephrase then: what is "sufficiently supported" without having to buy extra gear to document it? (edited)
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In my opinion, if you want to get to get it off the list fast, it is easiest to go out of your way with data to prove your point. Often in life even though you're right you still have to go out of your way to get it.
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Well. all my data is already on the blockchain.
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Since the ETL is down I don't know how to help you determine what might've gotten you on it, sorry.
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So getting on the list just requires your mother to raise a github issue but getting off the list you'd need to write a book and wait a few weeks? 😋
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Sloth
So getting on the list just requires your mother to raise a github issue but getting off the list you'd need to write a book and wait a few weeks? 😋
Not sure my mother will know how to use GitHub, but ideally the bar for additions would be just as high.
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With 700 issues in a week you need software to check all the cases, otherwise there is no feasible way to check each hotspot. And if you need software then you shouldn't need to raise an issue (edited)
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groot
Not sure my mother will know how to use GitHub, but ideally the bar for additions would be just as high.
Some work needed there. "I think this hotspot is mislocated and offline, ban him" (edited)
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Kuleramme
let me rephrase then: what is "sufficiently supported" without having to buy extra gear to document it? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 9:19 AM
Drop us your hotspot name, maybe one of us can work it out
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Drop us your hotspot name, maybe one of us can work it out
Thanks. https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/283 It's not like I've been hiding my dismay in the past week 😄 https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/728 (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 9:21 AM
Bah didn't think hiker used the Dewi etl (edited)
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groot
If it was me I would map it (using a mapper), take some pictures and submit it as a PR.
a mapper is not proof at all. that can be spoofed too.
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Testa
a mapper is not proof at all. that can be spoofed too.
It is at least a little more effort than than above example
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 9:25 AM
If I had the sql queries the Dewi etl metabase used I could run it against a private etl I have access to
09:25
But right now I'd need to write a query
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groot
In my opinion, if you want to get to get it off the list fast, it is easiest to go out of your way with data to prove your point. Often in life even though you're right you still have to go out of your way to get it.
can you specify what "data" you mean? This is in my opinion the wrong approach. The people of the list have to provide undefined "data" to get off the list, but no data is required to get on the list..
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 9:25 AM
(and it's 8 days behind syncing)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If I had the sql queries the Dewi etl metabase used I could run it against a private etl I have access to
They're in a public repo from jamie (edited)
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Sloth
It is at least a little more effort than than above example
you can do a lot of damage though. a gamer could spoof a mapper, then only his/her HS would show up.. all legitimate ones not. would those then go on the denylist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
(and it's 8 days behind syncing)
my HS was proposed to be banned 15 days ago and added to the list 11 days ago
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I understand the fear of some hear of losing profits to gamers, but we should not sacrifice fairness..
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Hot spot is new, I haven't stated position is added to the blacklist, it's too ridiculous
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groot
They're in a public repo from jamie (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 9:27 AM
I thought they were just some of the additional tables they added to Dewi
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Testa
can you specify what "data" you mean? This is in my opinion the wrong approach. The people of the list have to provide undefined "data" to get off the list, but no data is required to get on the list..
You guys sure like to take my example for a specific case as a broad mandate on what the protocol should be. That wasn't the issue at hand, nor what I was saying at all. I gave a concrete example of what I would do in this case. And I know mappers aren't fool proof, but they do show effort.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I thought they were just some of the additional tables they added to Dewi
Oh yes, sorry I thought you meant those. If you mean the rssi vs distance I think that was shared in #data-analysis a while back.
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New hot spots, no positioning, into the blacklist, what is the meaning of this?
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The burden of effort should really be on the accuser side
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groot
You guys sure like to take my example for a specific case as a broad mandate on what the protocol should be. That wasn't the issue at hand, nor what I was saying at all. I gave a concrete example of what I would do in this case. And I know mappers aren't fool proof, but they do show effort.
I may have missed that - have you specified what data you would provide?
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Kuleramme
The burden of effort should really be on the accuser side
that is such a fundamental thing. It is scary how such a fundamental principle of our justice system is thrown over board without hesitation for the sake of profits.
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Your work is really bad!
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Testa
I may have missed that - have you specified what data you would provide?
I said that, if it were my hotspots, in this specific case, make a PR with pictures and some mapper data. (edited)
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The next thing will be that they require only "onboarded" mappers to be used as proof to get off the denylist... licensed mappers.
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Why don't you check, you put the machine to join blacklist?
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Kuleramme
The next thing will be that they require only "onboarded" mappers to be used as proof to get off the denylist... licensed mappers.
Again, nothing I said is required, you asked I answered what I would do.
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioNew hot spots, no positioning, into the blacklist, what is the meaning of this?
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groot
Again, nothing I said is required, you asked I answered what I would do.
That one wasn't for you. I get that a mapper adds a certain degree of proof. As I said before though; few have them.
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005
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioNew hot spots, no positioning, into the blacklist, what is the meaning of this?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 9:34 AM
I don't run the list bud , I couldn't say
09:34
Helium Inc does
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Kuleramme
The next thing will be that they require only "onboarded" mappers to be used as proof to get off the denylist... licensed mappers.
If such a thing would exist it would solve the problem. But then also verified hotspots would exist, which also would solve the problem
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioAbsolutely terrible, and the new hot spot just registered into the blacklist
facepalm 1
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005
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioAbsolutely terrible, and the new hot spot just registered into the blacklist
You bought a NEW hotspot that was already on blacklist? address?
09:42
Do not connect to the Internet, no position
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It must have a 3-word name / b58 address? (edited)
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I have been issued in the github.com/helium/denylist/issues, but no one processing
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005
I have been issued in the github.com/helium/denylist/issues, but no one processing
can you past the link to the issue?
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weekly processing they claim. guess they will need a week to process once they decide to start 😄
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005
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.ioNew hot spots, no positioning, into the blacklist, what is the meaning of this?
Are you sure the new HS has entered the blacklist without positioning?
09:48
It's true
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WOW...MY GOD
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005
It's true
can you please just provide the issue # or direct link to it so we can maybe help check for you?
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Here can't send pictures?
10:02
coolcry
10:05
Hotspot Name short-mandarin-sidewinder jolly-brown-mandrill helpful-tiger-fly mythical-vermilion-bull savory-wool-anteater blunt-carob-salmon stable-vermilion-sardine rich-canvas-grasshopper refine...
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You added them on January 3rd and haven't yet asserted a location?
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Why haven't you asserted a location but kept them running?
10:10
there was no denylist back then
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No running, has been offline
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your miner is on this addition-request: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/333
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NO location set
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yep. there's no activity for it
10:14
just another proof that additions back then ended up directly on the denylist... copy-paste... with zero review @hashc0de
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This is hot, which I bought in others that he transferred to me, I also do not claim
10:16
You should review, no any activity hot spot, should not join the blacklist
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that is crazy. can that be?
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10 days, no one to deal with the problem
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
they should review
so much to your point @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io that all signers should review the list..
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It's what I have been saying for 6 days now ever since I found it happened to me.
10:19
copy-paste. no review by anyone
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Testa
so much to your point @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io that all signers should review the list..
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:19 AM
The current deny list we have no say over
10:19
There's nothing anyone can do
10:20
Hip40 aims to replace it
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The blacklist should not be abused
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Hip40 aims to replace it
but the problem stays the same. you expect people to review a list of 30k+ hotspots
10:20
and no governance around it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:20 AM
Indeed
10:20
That's why hip40 aims to replace it
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its not "abused". the problem is the guy doing the processing of issues is just copy-pasting instead of reviewing. I guess you can say it is not malicious. He just does a bad job (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That's why hip40 aims to replace it
also without defiend governance
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Who invited the HS without positioning into the blacklist? What is the mechanism?
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how would HIP40 avoid this?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:21 AM
Yep it's the only decentalised way
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Yes! I think the staff should check carefully!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:21 AM
Guidelines
10:21
Not governance
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Kuleramme
its not "abused". the problem is the guy doing the processing of issues is just copy-pasting instead of reviewing. I guess you can say it is not malicious. He just does a bad job (edited)
If so, it's bad
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it does not tackle the underlying problem: maintaining a list is a lot of effort. and without inventive to maintain a correct list but a lot of inventive to maintain a large list the result will be the same..
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Testa
it does not tackle the underlying problem: maintaining a list is a lot of effort. and without inventive to maintain a correct list but a lot of inventive to maintain a large list the result will be the same..
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:23 AM
Don't vote for it then
10:23
I'm tired of repeating the same things over re this hip
10:23
And will be looking forward to the vote
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My problem can be solved?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
And will be looking forward to the vote
when does it start?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'm tired of repeating the same things over re this hip
no need to repeat. Just please don't state the expectation is that the list maintainers/signers review the list.. that is just not feasible
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Ivan684
when does it start?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:25 AM
Soon
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Testa
no need to repeat. Just please don't state the expectation is that the list maintainers/signers review the list.. that is just not feasible
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:25 AM
Hip40 proposes no governance
10:25
I invite you to write a hip40 alternative
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005
My problem can be solved?
You are really an unfortunate man.
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005
Yes! I think the staff should check carefully!
were your hotspots in a wallet with gaming hotspots?
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Now I don't know should shouldn't trust helium network, my investment is failure!
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005
Now I don't know should shouldn't trust helium network, my investment is failure!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:27 AM
No one's forcing you to be here, looks like they transferred ownership recently
10:27
I assume maybe the old wallet was denied in a batch
10:27
But it's unclear as no one here runs the list
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No, this is I have no positioning of the hot spots in the amazon to buy someone else's, I was confirmed that this is new, not positioning
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
No one's forcing you to be here, looks like they transferred ownership recently
If that will be the answer every time someone complains who is for no reason on the list we risk that the project loses the support of the community..
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I don't think it is positioning of the hot spots, won't appear in the blacklist
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Testa
If that will be the answer every time someone complains who is for no reason on the list we risk that the project loses the support of the community..
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:29 AM
Ok, write an alternative
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Ok, write an alternative
what does that have to do with your answer?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:29 AM
You don't like hip40
10:29
So write an alternative
👍 1
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Real governance should be technically, not blindly to join blacklist.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So write an alternative
you clearly have not understood democracy.
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:30 AM
You clearly don't understand the hip process
10:30
If you don't like a hip, your welcome to suggest an alternative
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You clearly don't understand the hip process
yeah I am out of this discussion.. that is not a constructive discussion
👎 1
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Testa
yeah I am out of this discussion.. that is not a constructive discussion
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:31 AM
Bingo
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When democracy be abused?
🤦‍♂️ 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:31 AM
You want to complain, but won't suggest better methods or help
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You want to complain, but won't suggest better methods or help
I did not complain. I just highlighted that your assumption that the list maintainers review the list is not correct. and pointed out why HIP40 is flawed. you are taking this to serious, this is not against you.
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Testa
I did not complain. I just highlighted that your assumption that the list maintainers review the list is not correct. and pointed out why HIP40 is flawed. you are taking this to serious, this is not against you.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:33 AM
suggest alternatives then
10:33
write a hip
10:34
I cant stress enough how much better hip40 is for decentralisation over the current deny
10:34
im not saying its perfect
10:34
but its better
10:34
the hip will not have governance, if you dont like it, vote no , or suggest alternatives , i'd love alternatives to be put up for vote, nearly everyones said that for months now (to please suggest alternatives) (edited)
10:35
and yet, we still only have hip40
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
suggest alternatives then
so nobody is allowed to point out flaws in your HIP unless they write another HIP? You have a very interesting understanding of the HIP process.
👎 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:37 AM
i wrote the hip
10:37
as you will know it was written with governance in mind
10:37
that had to be removed
10:37
this is the only way for hip 40 to exist
10:37
if you dont like it, suggest an alternative
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this is going in circles. If everyone would write a new HIP if they don't like a proposed HIP we would have 1000s of HIP. anyway, I am done here, have a nice evening
partyparrot 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 10:46 AM
We don't tho, no one ever has an alternative and the rooms just repeat over and over
10:46
They just want to complain
💯 2
10:48
and ignore the months of chat going over why we cant do what they're suggesting
💯 2
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We don't tho, no one ever has an alternative and the rooms just repeat over and over
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io Maybe have the proof come from the addition side and then notify the hotspot owner after you've decided to put it in and give the hotspot owner a 7 day time frame to submit evidence against it/to fix the reported issues. I think that way A. The reports will be less but of more quality and B. The owners get the option beforehand to appeal or fix what is wrong.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 11:19 AM
We have no control over the lists under this hip
11:19
This hip only controls the mechanism
11:19
We can't force them to notify owners
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Well. I obviously support this HIP because it includes proper review of hotspots before inclusion in denylist..... as opposed to the current copy-paste crap job a certain person is doing
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Kuleramme
Well. I obviously support this HIP because it includes proper review of hotspots before inclusion in denylist..... as opposed to the current copy-paste crap job a certain person is doing
No it does not. Afaik this hip only facilitates the possibility to submit lists and validators to subscribe to a list. It is still possible that validators subscribe to an equally reviewed list (edited)
👍 1
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Sloth
No it does not. Afaik this hip only facilitates the possibility to submit lists and validators to subscribe to a list. It is still possible that validators subscribe to an equally reviewed list (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 11:32 AM
Yep, just the mechanism for using deny lists and changes to validators that are needed
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so this text is misleading?
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Kuleramme
so this text is misleading?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 11:32 AM
It's old
11:32
There's a new one coming
11:32
It's the above basically without any of the governance stuff
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hm. governance is pretty much the only thing we need? It was the only part of the text I cared for (edited)
11:34
can't have it like it is now that someone takes anything proposed into the list because it's a boring job to review it all to the extent that it should
11:35
... and then signers sign off on it without checking because they trust he does a good job (edited)
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Perhaps it's an idea to create a new channel for the current denylist. People seem to resort to the HIP40 channel as they see no other place to discuss it(and this creates confusion to what HIP40 is). (edited)
👍 4
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current denylist and everything around it is the most sloppy rush job I've seen in years. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There's a new one coming
captainhindsight 02/19/2022 11:39 AM
So what is this HIP actually proposing now? Just that deny lists will be an optional function of validators? Nothing to do with where the lists come from or how they are compiled or managed?
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yep. Anyone can create a list, describe how they made the list and validators can decide to use it. If it proves not to be reliable, validators can decide to not use it (edited)
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captainhindsight
So what is this HIP actually proposing now? Just that deny lists will be an optional function of validators? Nothing to do with where the lists come from or how they are compiled or managed?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 11:40 AM
The method for validators to use lists
11:41
And how it's shown on explorer etc
11:41
And how lists are secured and updated etc
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
And how lists are secured and updated etc
so there won't be any list defined by default? all lists will require opt-in by validators?
👍 1
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005
Real governance should be technically, not blindly to join blacklist.
Well. Turns out the activity on this account and the hotspots involved (which I guess must be yours) must have been deemed bad by Helium https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/14D4xSEEvv74jR5VLTQwcXvCnkCv4tA81ZBGmpUtN6sBiu22BEB/activity so they decided to ban all hotspots on the account whether they were active or not.... (in other words they simply copy-pasted the suggested hotspots which were listed in the issue based on their wallet - independent of the HS actually gaming or not) (edited)
👍 1
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Testa
so there won't be any list defined by default? all lists will require opt-in by validators?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 1:08 PM
opt in yes, no list as default
13:08
from what i understand, helium will continue to publish one they can choose to use, if it stays forever I don't know
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Kuleramme
Well. I obviously support this HIP because it includes proper review of hotspots before inclusion in denylist..... as opposed to the current copy-paste crap job a certain person is doing
You do not seem to be happy with the current implementation of the denylist. I understand that. There is also not much I can tell you about the processes used in the backend to fill this list. So I am in serious doubt if it's even worth writing this here, since I have not much ammo to counter well (well, maybe I have but I can't use it). It's clear that this denylist is rather new (I think we only had 2-3 updates?) and that the processes needs to be finetuned more. I also can't and won't comment on any individual github issues here. All I can say is that this list is needed, that we do our best to add gamers on large scale, that the community is open to add issues themselves, that it is indeed a lot of work to review them all and that there is certainly a possibility that some are missed. On the other hand, there is a lot of gaming going on. Look at what has happened near Brussels this week (you even commented on a Github issue about this yourself I think?). That issue in Brussels is not happening anymore by the way.
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molano
You do not seem to be happy with the current implementation of the denylist. I understand that. There is also not much I can tell you about the processes used in the backend to fill this list. So I am in serious doubt if it's even worth writing this here, since I have not much ammo to counter well (well, maybe I have but I can't use it). It's clear that this denylist is rather new (I think we only had 2-3 updates?) and that the processes needs to be finetuned more. I also can't and won't comment on any individual github issues here. All I can say is that this list is needed, that we do our best to add gamers on large scale, that the community is open to add issues themselves, that it is indeed a lot of work to review them all and that there is certainly a possibility that some are missed. On the other hand, there is a lot of gaming going on. Look at what has happened near Brussels this week (you even commented on a Github issue about this yourself I think?). That issue in Brussels is not happening anymore by the way.
Thanks for commenting though... without providing a lot more confidence in the current list. I know it takes time to review. I guess Helium has won by making me spend a lot of time digging into cheaters myself. See my latest additions from last hour. I wish they could simply return the favor and answer my concern (via DM if need be) and talk to me honestly and frankly about what exactly triggered them by my legitimately deployed HS. I would want to help them improve whatever flaw they have in their review. (edited)
17:42
I don't think thats too much to ask at this point
17:44
And I definitely agree the list is needed. I'm appalled by what I see in China. There's obviously too much room to cheat from the beginning. (edited)
👍 1
17:48
Then again, I suspect they don't have any recorded reasons for what triggered them about my HS (except for the addition-request someone put in)...
17:49
... and that's my biggest concern with current denylist. There seem to be no records or anything. Additions gets marked as reviewed and end up in denylist
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Kuleramme
... and that's my biggest concern with current denylist. There seem to be no records or anything. Additions gets marked as reviewed and end up in denylist
OptimusPrime 02/19/2022 8:17 PM
I know some hotspots that were requested to be added to the list ended up new wallets without in the list and keep earning well. (edited)
20:17
By the way, saw your impressive work @Kuleramme 👍
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I think if the official can detect cheating, why not directly invalidate the direct income in poc version 11, the machine that does not cheat will naturally pass poc v11, and the cheating machine cannot pass poc v11. At present, the official implementation of denylist takes more time to review, and it becomes extremely confusing whether it is removed or added. Clearly cheating signals should not pass proof of poc v11 coverage.
03:56
I have another question: why are many cheating machines not added to the denylist until players report it, why can’t the official detect cheating? If it is detected, why wait until the player reports it?
03:59
If no cheating machine is detected, after players report the machine, add it to denylist or leave it alone, is there any subjective personal judgment of community members?
04:00
There are too many unknowns at the moment whether to add to denylist or remove from denylist.
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When will an updated version of the denylist be ready? Is there a schedule for that? Like every 7/10/14 days ?
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@Chris12nothing, please wait
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Denylist has not been reviewed for 12 days
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Iron man
Denylist has not been reviewed for 12 days
OptimusPrime 02/20/2022 11:06 AM
As mod said, it is in the process in the backend, just hasn’t been committed yet.
💯 1
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@OptimusPrimewhat the backend process handles? Program processing should be fast.
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Iron man
@OptimusPrimewhat the backend process handles? Program processing should be fast.
OptimusPrime 02/20/2022 5:48 PM
Scroll up to see molano’s comments 👆 (edited)
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吃不饱
Troll 1
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SiamParagon 02/21/2022 4:31 AM
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11bkMgWVDYSteuq1fLvowC9z4BVReQrXNGCq4FhKXytzTmWBG9b why this HS on denylist but still can ear almost 2HNT daily? is there any bug?😔
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
04:31
*earn
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SiamParagon
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11bkMgWVDYSteuq1fLvowC9z4BVReQrXNGCq4FhKXytzTmWBG9b why this HS on denylist but still can ear almost 2HNT daily? is there any bug?😔
Report it on the denylist by adding new issue
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SiamParagon
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11bkMgWVDYSteuq1fLvowC9z4BVReQrXNGCq4FhKXytzTmWBG9b why this HS on denylist but still can ear almost 2HNT daily? is there any bug?😔
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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SiamParagon 02/21/2022 4:33 AM
already in github. but already on denylist, what else can do?
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Dont know, it seems they found a workaround to bypass denylist restrictions
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there is a bug in the denylist code
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Did someone look into the deeper miner ? I notice they are just witnessing only there own brand and not other brand device in the area
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Sloth
there is a bug in the denylist code
captainhindsight 02/21/2022 8:05 AM
That's actually astounding 😄😄😄
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jarv1s
Did someone look into the deeper miner ? I notice they are just witnessing only there own brand and not other brand device in the area
OptimusPrime 02/21/2022 8:37 AM
A number of them earn more than 1 hnt/day, with only one in each wallet. New pattern starts to emerge.
08:38
Panthers down, Deepers up.
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indeed, deepers seem mass cheating
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captainhindsight
That's actually astounding 😄😄😄
@SiamParagon The bug is already long fixed. There was a small timeslot that the denylist did not work optimally. The pull @Sloth is referring too, is an extra measure for the future. As you can see, it stopped earning already at 6AMUTC today.
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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748 meter height. Seems legit haha (edited)
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He sent multiple beacons per day. I dont say witnesse
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Sloth
748 meter height. Seems legit haha (edited)
OptimusPrime 02/21/2022 1:00 PM
There must be an error. Should be 7480 meters 😂
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Sloth
there is a bug in the denylist code
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:20 PM
It's not a bug. The denylist as it stands only works if the challenger is using the list.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not a bug. The denylist as it stands only works if the challenger is using the list.
Read #1446 pull on github. There was a bug. Even if challenger used the list. (edited)
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Sloth
Read #1446 pull on github. There was a bug. Even if challenger used the list. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:21 PM
There is that too
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Sloth
748 meter height. Seems legit haha (edited)
captainhindsight 02/21/2022 4:10 PM
Helicopter deployment 👍
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captainhindsight
Helicopter deployment 👍
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 4:15 PM
😜 1
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748 MASL?
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No one checking my request on denylist removal😐
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This is a decentralized project, denyList is making Helium more and more centralized
🤡 2
😂 1
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Hart
I think if the official can detect cheating, why not directly invalidate the direct income in poc version 11, the machine that does not cheat will naturally pass poc v11, and the cheating machine cannot pass poc v11. At present, the official implementation of denylist takes more time to review, and it becomes extremely confusing whether it is removed or added. Clearly cheating signals should not pass proof of poc v11 coverage.
The denylist works fine. Can you please share the names of your hotspots?
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janahi
No one checking my request on denylist removal😐
What's your hotspot name?
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zzeddd
What's your hotspot name?
Beautiful brick salamander
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zzeddd
What's your hotspot name?
Daring ginger crane
03:24
Brief peanut moose
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how to remove my hotspot from the denylist i have post the picture of my hotspot for about a week. but still no one process my issus. The denylist is so stupid, hurt the honet miner but still have no affect of those cheat miner.
03:42
my miner name is Zealous Scarlet Kestrel
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hangjghnv
This is a decentralized project, denyList is making Helium more and more centralized
Everyone is agreed with list except the gamer. Somebody questions the issue means who is side by gamers.
💯 1
05:41
Helium can do what they want. They own the project not u or me or people.
💯 1
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hangjghnv
This is a decentralized project, denyList is making Helium more and more centralized
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 6:30 AM
Every other day, someone will come to talk about how centralized or racist the people’s network is because of the denylist. Why not talk about how to address the cheating, help protect the people’s network from cheaters, and the possible collapse of the network if everyone is cheating? (edited)
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Why is denyList still not audited? Is there no people work?
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hangjghnv
This is a decentralized project, denyList is making Helium more and more centralized
its totally centralized chain now, helium project is a joke.
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OptimusPrime
Every other day, someone will come to talk about how centralized or racist the people’s network is because of the denylist. Why not talk about how to address the cheating, help protect the people’s network from cheaters, and the possible collapse of the network if everyone is cheating? (edited)
if without procedural justice, elite who is few can do anything. today they say punish the cheater, so they call the majority of people "let's build the list to punish them". Why should we can't image they can change the profit model. Why not just buy the stock kind of atnt or which is supervised by law and government
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YTLin
if without procedural justice, elite who is few can do anything. today they say punish the cheater, so they call the majority of people "let's build the list to punish them". Why should we can't image they can change the profit model. Why not just buy the stock kind of atnt or which is supervised by law and government
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 6:55 AM
Do not deviate from my point. I am talking about the cheaters, not profit models, not elites, not anything else. If you want talk about that, should propose another HIP.
06:57
You equal cheaters to people in the People’s Network. Cheaters cheat then get punished. I don’t see cheaters as people, otherwise people’s network will become cheaters’s network.
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if procedural justice is there, why people come here to complain there is no update of list. The whole methods for list is not fully considered
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Is everyone on the denylist a cheater? Are the ones not on the denylist real deployments? Is this judgment fair?
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 6:59 AM
I guess most “people” complaining here are gamers. I used “most”.
06:59
Remember I did not use “everyone”.
07:00
Why not think about why so many others not get banned?
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every viewpoint to question the list would be tag as gaming supporter. tired of it. helium should give the rule to update the list.
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YTLin
every viewpoint to question the list would be tag as gaming supporter. tired of it. helium should give the rule to update the list.
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 7:02 AM
Not every point. You can criticize what so ever. How about providing some suggestion? How to improve? Not just centralized, racist, etc, those useless points.
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i mean give the rule i don't mean support the gaming
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Can deal with the problem on the Denylist asap?
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 7:05 AM
If rules or methods are COMPLETELY revealed, who will benefit the most? I say cheaters. They will find another way. (edited)
💯 2
07:06
Even you have law enforcement in the real world, scammers are everywhere. (edited)
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OptimusPrime
Not every point. You can criticize what so ever. How about providing some suggestion? How to improve? Not just centralized, racist, etc, those useless points.
what you said is the problem. helium should give the rule first not list any suspicious and do nothing. now, list is there but no update. don't know how to do. and some says okay let discuss what should we do now? that's not fully considered
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Iron man
Can deal with the problem on the Denylist asap?
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 7:07 AM
Scroll up to see molano’s comments. (edited)
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YTLin
what you said is the problem. helium should give the rule first not list any suspicious and do nothing. now, list is there but no update. don't know how to do. and some says okay let discuss what should we do now? that's not fully considered
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 7:12 AM
I am not saying there is no problem. However, in the short period time, there is no better solution as onboarding miners increase drastically everyday. So do cheating ones. In my view, sometimes you use extraordinary measures to prevent catastrophes even everyone fights against you. (edited)
07:13
By the way, everything has problems. Nothing can be FULLY considered. (edited)
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low tech, stupid list, no solution to the cheater, helium is a joke project
👋 1
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tom_tom
low tech, stupid list, no solution to the cheater, helium is a joke project
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 7:19 AM
It would be a joke if everyone cheats.
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that is why before doing denylist so many ideas are thrown, like giving fine for re-assert those on list or something . i know helium explained the reason not to reveal the algorithm for anti-cheating and i agreed with it. but i mean they should keep going to review or something for the list 'we' decided. That's the reason those people come here to complain. The time they decide to maintain the list, they should aware some resource would be using on it. everyone is happy to see the network growing.😀
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My only request is to review denyList as soon as possible.
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 7:52 AM
Scroll up to take a look at molano's comments, then you will know the process is running behind the scene.
👍 1
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New denylist is being signed as we speak?
👋 1
12:14
👌
12:14
Would have been great to have ETL back, then we could see an interactive map on the locations 🙂
❤️ 1
12:16
1060 additions, no removals. Lot of hotspots
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OptimusPrime
I guess most “people” complaining here are gamers. I used “most”.
Im not gamer yet im on denylist
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abrahamcolombia 02/22/2022 12:43 PM
Hello Helium Team. apologies in advance if i didn't know the process. But i just report a gaming scheme of 27 Hotspots. Can someone explain to me , how the process works to validate and block this hotspots? Thanks in advance.
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Sloth
1060 additions, no removals. Lot of hotspots
less than 200 issues closed.. only 700 more to go 😉
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Testa
less than 200 issues closed.. only 700 more to go 😉
They probably scanned for the ones with reasonable proof?
👋 1
👍 1
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Sloth
They probably scanned for the ones with reasonable proof?
no idea. I don't think there are that many that really have sufficient proof (at least in my opinion). And technically speakign you should do an independent verification anyway.. so it will be time consuming if done properly
12:50
people signed the list less than one hour after creation.. that does not really leave much time for a review
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I'll rather have it slow and confirmed, so to minimize as much as possible the collateral damage.
💯 2
12:53
Maybe those signers already know what will be added on the list and have reviewed upfront.
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you tell us, you signed it 🙂
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janahi
Im not gamer yet im on denylist
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 2:20 PM
Based on your setups, I’m not sure that is the case. Just my personal opinion 😉 (edited)
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JAMIEGLEAVE 02/22/2022 2:32 PM
Joyous Coral Pheasant - get this on the deny list please. Nobody gets that many beacons in 24 hrs.
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JAMIEGLEAVE
Joyous Coral Pheasant - get this on the deny list please. Nobody gets that many beacons in 24 hrs.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 2:35 PM
Except anyone affected by the #hip-54-h3dex-poc-targeting issue...
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OptimusPrime
Every other day, someone will come to talk about how centralized or racist the people’s network is because of the denylist. Why not talk about how to address the cheating, help protect the people’s network from cheaters, and the possible collapse of the network if everyone is cheating? (edited)
captainhindsight 02/22/2022 4:08 PM
I expect those people are the very gamers we don't want on the network.
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Iron man
Is everyone on the denylist a cheater? Are the ones not on the denylist real deployments? Is this judgment fair?
captainhindsight 02/22/2022 4:10 PM
You tell us.
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tom_tom
low tech, stupid list, no solution to the cheater, helium is a joke project
captainhindsight 02/22/2022 4:11 PM
You're so wrong.
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Im not gamer yet im on denylist
17:19
I was wronged
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Iron man
Im not gamer yet im on denylist
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 5:26 PM
What is your hotspot name?
👆 1
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OptimusPrime
What is your hotspot name?
I'll text you separately.
😏 1
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Iron man
I'll text you separately.
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 5:52 PM
Please don't dm me. All of us here can help you. Thx. (edited)
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Hotspot b58 Addresses 11rSVFFdbUeNfgB3KiLxnrLomQg1c8jhLnGMS7RSUAusvi3gz5L 11URX5dKGeeLGEA3sbpGbyBtk2LFJAgKxYECq259nocB79nk9DE 11c25JXVrbXiCoPNdonnX3D9VnmDdR6YTAyjYwRU6jZfX35BGMx 11mgigoSL2uSou47yE6...
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18:20
most miners rewards 1 hnt per day,it must be a gamer.
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 6:25 PM
Seems a jackpot. 9 days ago transferred so many hotspots to a number of wallets. Hopefully helium team can look into it thoroughly. 😉
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Iron man
Im not gamer yet im on denylist
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 6:31 PM
Still curious as to the denylisted hotspot. I wonder is there is an easy search feature in github where we can look for the hotspots address and see where it was added (if it was a user submission)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 6:34 PM
Wallet owner's defense post "I got 99 hotspots, but a spoof ain't one!" 😎
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They have stolen many HNT in this period of time.Hopefully helium team can look into it thoroughly.
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 6:57 PM
The wallet activities look like an alleged suspect on the run 🏃‍♀️. ✌️ (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but i fear with issues like this
hey this is me
18:59
the miner is in a actual asserted location.
19:05
some how Im in the denylist again for reporting at the correct location without any modification. not a spoofer or faker.
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yo why my removed hotspot has added into denylist Again!!
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ken340
some how Im in the denylist again for reporting at the correct location without any modification. not a spoofer or faker.
we have same issue
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GOTYABITCH
yo why my removed hotspot has added into denylist Again!!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:32 PM
Probably because of your name. 😉
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The latest list say updated from community list
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i checked no one report my hotspot
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GOTYABITCH
i checked no one report my hotspot
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:33 PM
hmm... what's the hotspot name?
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Same. I search on the GitHub filter no one reported
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:33 PM
You running anything unusual?
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all good real location real setup
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Nothing unusual.
19:34
The location is exactly where it is.
19:34
Using Nebra indoor with RAK 5.8dbi
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:34 PM
so miner, cable, antenna. Nothing else? No mods? SD card swaps, etc?
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ken340
Using Nebra indoor with RAK 5.8dbi
ha i am also using 5.8dbi rak
19:35
maybe thats the problem
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GOTYABITCH
ha i am also using 5.8dbi rak
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:35 PM
we all use those 😉
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The new denylist says added from community list
19:36
Which community list ?
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ken340
Which community list ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:36 PM
there is only the github
19:36
What are the hotspot names?
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Long scarlet buffalo
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did they make the mistake updating list from the first one
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GOTYABITCH
did they make the mistake updating list from the first one
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:37 PM
it's possible. There was another bug earlier that screwed up the list just the other day.
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like they should update from the list on 12 feb but used the list from Jan.
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I’m my first request I even mentioned that I’ll be moving my hotspot which I did and location assertion done
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ken340
Long scarlet buffalo
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:38 PM
there are two "Long scarlet buffalo". Brazil or Hong Kong?
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Hong Kong
👍 1
19:39
My earning are below average even I found a location at my in-laws which has a few legit users
19:39
So I move it there and all done properly and accordingly
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so what we can do is opening another issue?
19:40
and wait half month?lolsob (edited)
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I open another issue.
19:41
And by that time HIP 55 will come in place. We all transferred to light hotspot
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ken340
My earning are below average even I found a location at my in-laws which has a few legit users
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:43 PM
Nothing so far jumps out at me as to why you would be on the list. Maybe @molano can shed some light on this.
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they probably modify from more earlier list.
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ken340
I open another issue.
[Removal]: #30 <---- you are the first
19:47
And I’m a sample where the community use for other to report
19:48
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
19:48
20220222 (#1474) Updates from the community Co-authored-by: Joe <6339738+jcronyn@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Anthony Anderson <fnanderson93@gmail.com> Co-authored-by: molano999 <98391235+molano999@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Heimdall <98121869+h3imdal1@users.noreply.github.com>
19:49
Updates from the community?
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ken340
I open another issue.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:50 PM
wait... your report says a modded SD card. I asked about that...
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I swap the SD card
19:50
Nothing changed inside
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ken340
Nothing changed inside
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:51 PM
Maybe the SD card is messing something up?
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It’s a clone
19:51
Nothing else
19:52
Nebra is having some issues and over the period of 1 month nebra support have factory reset my device 2-3 times
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ken340
Nebra is having some issues and over the period of 1 month nebra support have factory reset my device 2-3 times
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:53 PM
Why have you transferred ownership of the hotspot multiple times?
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Only once
19:54
I bought it if someone
19:54
Like I mentioned on the 1st removal request
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:54 PM
That hotspot has been through multiple wallets
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And I think the previous owner bought it from someone else
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Updates from the community Closes #160, Closes #266, Closes #398, Closes #408, Closes #432, Closes #434, Closes #478, Closes #479, Closes #488, Closes #496, Closes #497, Closes #513, Closes #515...
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@YTLin my removal was earlier
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really weird
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Not this. This update added me in again
19:57
I search the github and not nothing hit my HS address except the one I requested removal from day 1
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if they add you back, they should open [Addition] case and text there.
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Yes but nothing
19:57
I search see who added me back. You can try searching my HS address on github filter
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ken340
@YTLin my removal was earlier
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 7:58 PM
Where does it say you were removed? I only see the issue closed.
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GOTYABITCH
yo why my removed hotspot has added into denylist Again!!
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 7:58 PM
What is your hotspot’s name?
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* Add and remove Hotspots * Add signatures Co-authored-by: Anthony Anderson &lt;fnanderson93@gmail.com&gt; Co-authored-by: Joe &lt;joseph.cronyn@gmail.com&gt; Co-authored-by: ...
20:01
they removed your from there (edited)
20:01
5771
20:02
try to mail them i think
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Mail who?
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no idea
20:03
Co-authored-by: Anthony Anderson <fnanderson93@gmail.com> Co-authored-by: Joe <joseph.cronyn@gmail.com> Co-authored-by: Daniel Andrade <daniel@danielandrade.net> Co-authored-by: molano999 <98391235+molano999@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Heimdall <98121869+h3imdal1@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: molano999 <98391235+molano999@users.noreply.github.com>
20:03
maybe guys
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Hope @MaLano can help. I saw he is one of the signer.
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appeal rule is not clear enough at least by now
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YTLin
5771
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:04 PM
5771? What is that?
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line number
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:05 PM
Ah, had to open the csv
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search the 112Rn1KgPuvwArVpfnS1uFqewVX2iNfJRNTn3a8tvRH9pm3LmGqL. you can see the record
20:05
😄
20:09
Still on the list
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their device was removed from 2022 02 02 version. but don't know why to add it back this version (edited)
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YTLin
their device was removed from 2022 02 02 version. but don't know why to add it back this version (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:11 PM
I'm looking at the 2022 02 02 version. It's still there. 🤷‍♂️
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this is 2022 02 22 not 2022 02 02
20:11
okay
20:11
maybe
20:12
20220222 vs 20220202
20:12
is key point
20:12
😆
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:12 PM
too many 2's lol
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i bet they make this mistake.
20:13
🤣 (edited)
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Hopefully they change it
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too many 2's
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:14 PM
So this is the change list for this latest release, right? https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/1474/files
20:15
(still learning github 😉 )
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it just shows the different
20:15
where deleted or where added
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:16 PM
Wait.. here it is in the cvs. Looks like it was added
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github shows the green
20:17
and "+"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:17 PM
Green line and + means it was added, right?
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means added in this version
20:17
yes
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:17 PM
Then yeah, it was added 🙂
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 8:17 PM
yeah, it is updated already.
20:18
but still a lot in the queue. (edited)
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what queue?
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 8:18 PM
the queue of issues (edited)
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if they really want to add the closed and removed back, they should comment it. but there is no message.
20:20
The following Issues were reviewed for this denylist update. Merging this branch will close all the linked issues. Please note, some submissions were reviewed and closed without action. The team is...
20:20
The following Issues were reviewed for this denylist update. Merging this branch will close all the linked issues. Please note, some submissions were reviewed and closed without action. The team is still processing removals in a systematic way as we've found that several removals are being submitted fraudulently as well. Closes #160, Closes #266, Closes #398, Closes #408, Closes #432, Closes #434, Closes #478, Closes #479, Closes #488, Closes #496, Closes #497, Closes #513, Closes #515, Closes #527, Closes #530, Closes #533, Closes #555, Closes #561, Closes #563, Closes #564, Closes #565, Closes #566, Closes #567, Closes #569, Closes #570, Closes #571, Closes #572, Closes #573, Closes #574, Closes #580, Closes #585, Closes #587, Closes #590, Closes #591, Closes #592, Closes #594, Closes #627, Closes #628, Closes #629, Closes #642, Closes #644, Closes #648, Closes #657, Closes #659, Closes #681, Closes #715, Closes #719, Closes #720, Closes #725, Closes #735, Closes #756, Closes #762, Closes #763, Closes #792, Closes #847, Closes #851, Closes #853, Closes #858, Closes #860, Closes #862, Closes #865, Closes #867, Closes #891, Closes #899, Closes #925, Closes #928, Closes #932, Closes #935, Closes #939, Closes #940, Closes #943, Closes #949, Closes #956, Closes #957, Closes #960, Closes #1022, Closes #1023, Closes #1025, Closes #1026, Closes #1028, Closes #1029, Closes #1031, Closes #1034, Closes #1057, Closes #1062, Closes #1063, Closes #1067, Closes #1068, Closes #1071, Closes #1072, Closes #1073, Closes #1081, Closes #1109, Closes #1125, Closes #1219, Closes #1249, Closes #1252, Closes #1253, Closes #1263, Closes #1291, Closes #1293, Closes #1295, Closes #1307, Closes #1374, Closes #1377, Closes #1403, Closes #1404, Closes #1426, Closes #1428, Closes #1432, Closes #1433, Closes #1436, Closes #1454, Closes #1459, Closes #1460, Closes #1468, Closes #1469
20:20
i mean here
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 8:21 PM
"Please note, some submissions were reviewed and closed without action. The team is still processing removals in a systematic way as we've found that several removals are being submitted fraudulently as well."
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YTLin
The following Issues were reviewed for this denylist update. Merging this branch will close all the linked issues. Please note, some submissions were reviewed and closed without action. The team is still processing removals in a systematic way as we've found that several removals are being submitted fraudulently as well. Closes #160, Closes #266, Closes #398, Closes #408, Closes #432, Closes #434, Closes #478, Closes #479, Closes #488, Closes #496, Closes #497, Closes #513, Closes #515, Closes #527, Closes #530, Closes #533, Closes #555, Closes #561, Closes #563, Closes #564, Closes #565, Closes #566, Closes #567, Closes #569, Closes #570, Closes #571, Closes #572, Closes #573, Closes #574, Closes #580, Closes #585, Closes #587, Closes #590, Closes #591, Closes #592, Closes #594, Closes #627, Closes #628, Closes #629, Closes #642, Closes #644, Closes #648, Closes #657, Closes #659, Closes #681, Closes #715, Closes #719, Closes #720, Closes #725, Closes #735, Closes #756, Closes #762, Closes #763, Closes #792, Closes #847, Closes #851, Closes #853, Closes #858, Closes #860, Closes #862, Closes #865, Closes #867, Closes #891, Closes #899, Closes #925, Closes #928, Closes #932, Closes #935, Closes #939, Closes #940, Closes #943, Closes #949, Closes #956, Closes #957, Closes #960, Closes #1022, Closes #1023, Closes #1025, Closes #1026, Closes #1028, Closes #1029, Closes #1031, Closes #1034, Closes #1057, Closes #1062, Closes #1063, Closes #1067, Closes #1068, Closes #1071, Closes #1072, Closes #1073, Closes #1081, Closes #1109, Closes #1125, Closes #1219, Closes #1249, Closes #1252, Closes #1253, Closes #1263, Closes #1291, Closes #1293, Closes #1295, Closes #1307, Closes #1374, Closes #1377, Closes #1403, Closes #1404, Closes #1426, Closes #1428, Closes #1432, Closes #1433, Closes #1436, Closes #1454, Closes #1459, Closes #1460, Closes #1468, Closes #1469
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:23 PM
Is there a way to search submissions for a hotspot address?
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we are talking about reviewed, closed and removed case. okay, maybe it could add if any question, please appeal it again.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Is there a way to search submissions for a hotspot address?
don't get it sorry
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YTLin
don't get it sorry
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:25 PM
All those closed submissions listed above. Is there an easy way to search what is in them without having to open every one?
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no idea😅
20:26
use the filter?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:31 PM
Found a search
20:31
no mention of 112Rn1KgPuvwArVpfnS1uFqewVX2iNfJRNTn3a8tvRH9pm3LmGqL other than his two removal requests.
20:31
No idea why it was added again
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YTLin
20220222 vs 20220202
i believe
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YTLin
use the filter?
Not filter
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:34 PM
Pulled off the list 2022 02 02 Put back on the list 2022 02 22
20:34
112Rn1KgPuvwArVpfnS1uFqewVX2iNfJRNTn3a8tvRH9pm3LmGqL
20:34
Far as I can see, not due to a user report
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how many 2s are there
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YTLin
how many 2s are there
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:35 PM
2 many 2 count lol
20:36
I mean, it's tuesday, right? 😉 lol
20:36
😅
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
no mention of 112Rn1KgPuvwArVpfnS1uFqewVX2iNfJRNTn3a8tvRH9pm3LmGqL other than his two removal requests.
OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 8:40 PM
you can change the label tab to select addition or removal
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OptimusPrime
you can change the label tab to select addition or removal
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:41 PM
Sorry, total git noob. 😉 Not seeing anything like that.
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 8:41 PM
couldn't post a picture
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i am looking at each closed item related to the 20220222
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 8:42 PM
just screenshot one for you 😂
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OptimusPrime
just screenshot one for you 😂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:42 PM
you can DM me 🙂
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OptimusPrime 02/22/2022 8:43 PM
ok
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OptimusPrime
you can change the label tab to select addition or removal
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 8:47 PM
So that search shows the same. Just the 2 removal requests. None to add to the list.
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I am searching each individual closed case associated with 20220222
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ken340
I am searching each individual closed case associated with 20220222
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 9:10 PM
If it was there, my search should have found it.
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what can i do? nothing except waiting for them to check my request again?
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ken340
what can i do? nothing except waiting for them to check my request again?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 9:17 PM
Seems like it.
21:18
i had my miner for around 2 months. i hardly earn 1.5 HNT the entire duration
21:18
and i am on the denylist.
21:19
not knowing why
21:20
i guess there are no perfect systems. (edited)
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ken340
i had my miner for around 2 months. i hardly earn 1.5 HNT the entire duration
R u getting any witnesses. I have 3 of them in 3 different location all of them in denylist and not getting any witnesses also hasn't mine even half hnt😐
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janahi
R u getting any witnesses. I have 3 of them in 3 different location all of them in denylist and not getting any witnesses also hasn't mine even half hnt😐
I have not valid witnesses as yet. Never had a good experience with helium. My miner have a few problems which the tech support had to do factory reset 2 times.
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ken340
I have not valid witnesses as yet. Never had a good experience with helium. My miner have a few problems which the tech support had to do factory reset 2 times.
Same in here. Every day a new problem shows up after fixing the last one
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Maybe I commented on helium where the HIP55 is actually going against the principle of expending coverage. Miners at rural area could not get any witnesses and witness any others. They only can earn from PoC challengers. If they can’t even get that who will place the miner at rural areas while waiting for others to join (edited)
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ken340
Maybe I commented on helium where the HIP55 is actually going against the principle of expending coverage. Miners at rural area could not get any witnesses and witness any others. They only can earn from PoC challengers. If they can’t even get that who will place the miner at rural areas while waiting for others to join (edited)
Thats very bad. Im in rural area too
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Yes,if you buy many miners in order to let them witness to each other at rural area,mabye your miner will be in the denylist.😜
👎 1
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yup, that is the issue with HIP55
23:31
HIP55 is going to have more miners places where there are many miners. that is why i moved my miner to my in-laws place.
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yo many people have the same problem. the removed hotspots get blocked again
👍 1
23:31
Hotspot Name Immense Tangerine Albatross Hotspot b58 Address 11R2JKSQZbTFJC9awEekX24QHuhtScYX5LaCGJoNqiiRPV9MaAx Discord Handle ToHuK#6331 Hotspot Manufacturer Sensecap Removal Reason Hello! Me and...
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DVA798
Yes,if you buy many miners in order to let them witness to each other at rural area,mabye your miner will be in the denylist.😜
What's wrong with installing it in the countryside? The water meter in the countryside can be connected to lora.
00:06
The rural network is not developed, and the use of the lora network is very suitable.
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Iron man
What's wrong with installing it in the countryside? The water meter in the countryside can be connected to lora.
Nothing wrong. It was sarcasm, but quite spot on to what seems to happen.
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Iron man
The rural network is not developed, and the use of the lora network is very suitable.
OptimusPrime 02/23/2022 12:47 AM
Still it depends where you are. Many countries like China won’t allow to truly implement decentralized projects to destabilize their state-sponsored business models as seeing it cracking down the crypto mining and high techs. Others like El Salvador might do opposite. (edited)
00:53
And legit excuses cannot cover the cheating patterns detected by other signs besides witnessing only each other.
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LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 1:34 AM
hi Team, can you kindly check if the version of the denylist used is the latest? because i noticed that were re-added some hs (included mine 😦 ) that were removed in previous version and there are no reports that request to re-add these hs...thanks for the work 🙂
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YTLin
The following Issues were reviewed for this denylist update. Merging this branch will close all the linked issues. Please note, some submissions were reviewed and closed without action. The team is still processing removals in a systematic way as we've found that several removals are being submitted fraudulently as well. Closes #160, Closes #266, Closes #398, Closes #408, Closes #432, Closes #434, Closes #478, Closes #479, Closes #488, Closes #496, Closes #497, Closes #513, Closes #515, Closes #527, Closes #530, Closes #533, Closes #555, Closes #561, Closes #563, Closes #564, Closes #565, Closes #566, Closes #567, Closes #569, Closes #570, Closes #571, Closes #572, Closes #573, Closes #574, Closes #580, Closes #585, Closes #587, Closes #590, Closes #591, Closes #592, Closes #594, Closes #627, Closes #628, Closes #629, Closes #642, Closes #644, Closes #648, Closes #657, Closes #659, Closes #681, Closes #715, Closes #719, Closes #720, Closes #725, Closes #735, Closes #756, Closes #762, Closes #763, Closes #792, Closes #847, Closes #851, Closes #853, Closes #858, Closes #860, Closes #862, Closes #865, Closes #867, Closes #891, Closes #899, Closes #925, Closes #928, Closes #932, Closes #935, Closes #939, Closes #940, Closes #943, Closes #949, Closes #956, Closes #957, Closes #960, Closes #1022, Closes #1023, Closes #1025, Closes #1026, Closes #1028, Closes #1029, Closes #1031, Closes #1034, Closes #1057, Closes #1062, Closes #1063, Closes #1067, Closes #1068, Closes #1071, Closes #1072, Closes #1073, Closes #1081, Closes #1109, Closes #1125, Closes #1219, Closes #1249, Closes #1252, Closes #1253, Closes #1263, Closes #1291, Closes #1293, Closes #1295, Closes #1307, Closes #1374, Closes #1377, Closes #1403, Closes #1404, Closes #1426, Closes #1428, Closes #1432, Closes #1433, Closes #1436, Closes #1454, Closes #1459, Closes #1460, Closes #1468, Closes #1469
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 1:40 AM
I think they merged with the WRONG version of denylist 😦 some hs that were removed are now included again 😦
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If the miners from denylist get a hwid ban? What happens if i accideltly buy a miner from ebay that was on denylist or from alibaba
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radiance
If the miners from denylist get a hwid ban? What happens if i accideltly buy a miner from ebay that was on denylist or from alibaba
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 1:44 AM
you must provide evidence that cheating has not been your concern since hs has been in your possession
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Ok. And this cheap miner from alibaba are miners that were on denylist right(
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Pulled off the list 2022 02 02 Put back on the list 2022 02 22
key point 😆
👍 2
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LaRisposta4
I think they merged with the WRONG version of denylist 😦 some hs that were removed are now included again 😦
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 1:58 AM
There was an issue with tagging that saw the deny list regress, it was re tagged and fixed
01:58
Want to drop a hotspot name?
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try mine long scarlet buffalo
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There was an issue with tagging that saw the deny list regress, it was re tagged and fixed
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:08 AM
Generous Metal Tiger and thanks for the help @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There was an issue with tagging that saw the deny list regress, it was re tagged and fixed
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:09 AM
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/75 this is the request closed and after that i was removed from denylist
Hotspot Name Generous Metal Tiger Hotspot b58 Address 1121Y5ZAAc7bPacoQTtv33sHJTuSTyVJ8TVbbbGaJCdiGXwgbm14 Discord Handle LaRisposta4#3182 Hotspot Manufacturer Bobcat Removal Reason I think there w...
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LaRisposta4
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/75 this is the request closed and after that i was removed from denylist
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 2:38 AM
it's still in the latest deny
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it's still in the latest deny
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:39 AM
Yes in the released list of 8 hours ago..but in the previous it wasn't inserted...i didn't change or modify anything....so why i have been removed and after readded...i saw a lot of posts of other users with the same "issue"...IMHO I think there is a mistake 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 2:40 AM
I cant see any pr's mentioning removing 75
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LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:40 AM
yes wait and i'll give you the one
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I cant see any pr's mentioning removing 75
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:44 AM
i was added into release 2022012601 and removed into release 2022020201 as my request https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/75
Hotspot Name Generous Metal Tiger Hotspot b58 Address 1121Y5ZAAc7bPacoQTtv33sHJTuSTyVJ8TVbbbGaJCdiGXwgbm14 Discord Handle LaRisposta4#3182 Hotspot Manufacturer Bobcat Removal Reason I think there w...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 2:44 AM
one sec
👍 1
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LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:44 AM
i also explained to @molano everything
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 2:46 AM
yep
💯 1
02:46
i see you were removed in 2022020201
💯 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i see you were removed in 2022020201
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:47 AM
do you agree with me there is probably a mistake of the selected denylist?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 2:47 AM
hard to say
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LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:47 AM
feel free to ask me if you need further information or if I can help with something
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 2:47 AM
but yeah
02:47
your back in the latest
coolcry 1
02:48
you have an issue in, thats the only thing you can do
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you have an issue in, thats the only thing you can do
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:49 AM
done, what I try to do is to raise a "message" to people who are looking for denylist that probably something went wrong because i noticed too much users that were removed from denylist and after the last updated are reinserted...hope that helps (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 2:49 AM
there was some weirdness with latest tags
02:49
i wonder if it caused issues with entries
02:50
it built off a earlier list (the new pr)
02:50
rather than the true "latest"
02:50
so you've snuck back in
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LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 2:50 AM
yeah maybe is that...hope the other people of the teams "fix" this as soon as they can 🙂
02:50
and thanks for the support @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
02:52
I also wrote directly on GitHub under denylist section my doubts, hope they see my message 🙂
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LaRisposta4
yeah maybe is that...hope the other people of the teams "fix" this as soon as they can 🙂
me too
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Sloth
1060 additions, no removals. Lot of hotspots
Brilliant. Removals need weeks to be reviewed and none end up being accepted, while additions without proof are merged and signed without a second thought
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🤡 1
06:01
Seems falsely adding people to the list has never been more profitable
🙄 1
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FezzFest
Brilliant. Removals need weeks to be reviewed and none end up being accepted, while additions without proof are merged and signed without a second thought
As I read it is too much work to go through them so they leave it be until they find a good method?
06:02
"as some removals were fraudulent"
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Some additions were fraudulent as well, but apparently those don't need to be verified before being accepted (edited)
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FezzFest
Brilliant. Removals need weeks to be reviewed and none end up being accepted, while additions without proof are merged and signed without a second thought
OptimusPrime 02/23/2022 6:24 AM
If this is true, then all additions should be accepted already. Stop spreading out misinformation.
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Can we see where someone submitted my miner for the denylist?
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OptimusPrime
If this is true, then all additions should be accepted already. Stop spreading out misinformation.
I said 'additions without proof are merged and signed without a second thought', not 'all additions are merged and signed without a second thought'.
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OptimusPrime 02/23/2022 6:36 AM
There are so many ways to detect the fraudulent removal request. For example, some people here are whining about no changes of denylist. So asked for their hotspot’s names, they will disappear and come back later whining again. To me a good sign for right detections. (edited)
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I submitted a GitHub issue for my miner. When can I expect a resolution? Thanks!
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Mijobar
I submitted a GitHub issue for my miner. When can I expect a resolution? Thanks!
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 6:49 AM
who knows 🙂 the most important thing is that you provide evidence of there is a mistake of including your hs into denylist...
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LaRisposta4
who knows 🙂 the most important thing is that you provide evidence of there is a mistake of including your hs into denylist...
What kind of evidence are they looking for? that the miner actually exists?
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OptimusPrime
There are so many ways to detect the fraudulent removal request. For example, some people here are whining about no changes of denylist. So asked for their hotspot’s names, they will disappear and come back later whining again. To me a good sign for right detections. (edited)
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 6:50 AM
what do you mean?
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Mijobar
What kind of evidence are they looking for? that the miner actually exists?
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 6:51 AM
if you are in the list probably you or the previous owner were doing cheating like spoofing for example...if you aren't guilty you should show evidence
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LaRisposta4
if you are in the list probably you or the previous owner were doing cheating like spoofing for example...if you aren't guilty you should show evidence
I am the only owner of the miner. What kind of evidence?
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Yeah it's very funny when people post removal requests, and their evidence is a picture of their hotspot sitting on their desk
🤣 1
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Mijobar
I am the only owner of the miner. What kind of evidence?
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 6:52 AM
think what are you doing wrong...(spoofing, wrong antenna declared, wrong height declared, multiple miners in the same room)
06:53
if no one of these is your case post a logfile or everything you have to show that you are not guilty
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LaRisposta4
if no one of these is your case post a logfile or everything you have to show that you are not guilty
Thank god the RAKs have a great dashboard that you can use to show logfiles! /s
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LaRisposta4
what do you mean?
OptimusPrime 02/23/2022 6:54 AM
There are a couple of ids here whining about no actions of their removal requests. When people ask about the hotspot’s name and offer help, the ids stopped chatting or never replied the question. Later they come back whining again. (edited)
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Seth.nova
Yeah it's very funny when people post removal requests, and their evidence is a picture of their hotspot sitting on their desk
If it's a desk on the 10th floor of a highrise, it could very well be providing decent coverage
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LaRisposta4
if no one of these is your case post a logfile or everything you have to show that you are not guilty
Where can I get the logfile from sensecap miner?
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The problem is, again, complete lack of transparency in the addition/removal process
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FezzFest
If it's a desk on the 10th floor of a highrise, it could very well be providing decent coverage
OptimusPrime 02/23/2022 6:58 AM
Not necessarily if you are surrounded by concrete walls.
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People create issues accusing hotspots of cheating 'because they can't see the antenna'.
07:01
Others create issues because 'the hotspot is in the middle of a field' and/or 'it earns more than I do and therefor must be cheating'
07:03
I've seen people argue that hotspots on top of towers must be banned because "it's the people's network" and "normal people don't have access to towers"
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OptimusPrime 02/23/2022 7:05 AM
Are those arguments accepted by the denylist? If not yet, it indicates there is a process, not just blindly accept whatever requests are. (edited)
07:06
Guess same for both addition and removal. (edited)
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OptimusPrime
Are those arguments accepted by the denylist? If not yet, it indicates there is a process, not just blindly accept whatever requests are. (edited)
Since there's no explanation when a hotspot gets banned, it is impossible to say it is banned because of those arguments
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with HIP 55 and HIP40 must be done fairly. not without verification. HIP40 denylist and HIP 55 will render the device useless. innocent users have no way to know why they are on denylist
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:26 AM
55 has nothing to do with gaming/40
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I don't know what HIP-55 got to do with this?
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HIP55 challenge are by validator. HIP40 denylist = no withness
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:26 AM
And 40 is not related to the current deny list
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when a HS in denylist = no withness (edited)
07:27
only POC challenge
07:28
HIP 40 denylist = no POC challenge
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ken340
when a HS in denylist = no withness (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:28 AM
No
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if the HS is rightly faking and spoofing then put all of them in denylist
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:28 AM
Hip40 is no witness/beacon/anything
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buy first define a wrongdoing
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:28 AM
55 is moving challenge creation
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Hip40 is no witness/beacon/anything
Your witness/beacon/whatever txn is still recorded on chain right? It's just invalidated with denied or something?
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groot
Your witness/beacon/whatever txn is still recorded on chain right? It's just invalidated with denied or something?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:30 AM
Exactly, still goes through
07:30
Just is marked invalid with reason denylist
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= no earnings
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Ok great, the transparency of that system is one of the things I really like so was worried it might be changed.
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its like law. you must define the law.
07:31
you must proof guilty
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:31 AM
We can't tell the gamers how they were caught
👍 2
07:31
That would cause more to try and game
07:31
Or , fix the fault in their code that exposed them (edited)
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what if. the gamer is your neighbour. and you have you HS about 300m away from him.
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ken340
what if. the gamer is your neighbour. and you have you HS about 300m away from him.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:32 AM
Nothing happens?
07:32
Only the gamer would be denied
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you wont get witness and withnesess?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That would cause more to try and game
OptimusPrime 02/23/2022 7:32 AM
There are already more getting ready for this 😂
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and I look at your HS and reported it to denylist
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ken340
you wont get witness and withnesess?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:33 AM
The gaming hotspot won't beacon, and won't earn from witnessing yours
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and you get in the denylist
07:33
go look at taiwan map
07:34
look at the heltec HS there
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:34 AM
Hotspots are checked before additions or removals are made currently, as you can see it's not a quick process for a reason
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good look at images of people put HS all in one place
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:35 AM
Are they still on the denylist?
07:35
they are not
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:35 AM
Please show me a hotspot , I'll check it
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they are still making lots of HNT daily
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:35 AM
Name/address
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Just is marked invalid with reason denylist
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 7:37 AM
unfortunately i'm experimenting this situation and the results is no activity not INVALID...
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Curved Myrtle Condor
07:37
go check
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LaRisposta4
unfortunately i'm experimenting this situation and the results is no activity not INVALID...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:37 AM
The current list is not hip40
07:37
Hip40 is to replace what's there currently
👍 1
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they move from Hong Kong to Taiwan
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ken340
Curved Myrtle Condor
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:39 AM
Any chance you can link the removal request?
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so the current is not working
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Any chance you can link the removal request?
what i am saying is those real spoofer are getting away. legit users get busted
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LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 7:40 AM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io can you kindly report what we discussed a few hours ago to people who are looking to denylist? i think that your message is more efficient than mine 😄
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ken340
what i am saying is those real spoofer are getting away. legit users get busted
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:40 AM
....
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LaRisposta4
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io can you kindly report what we discussed a few hours ago to people who are looking to denylist? i think that your message is more efficient than mine 😄
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:40 AM
I can't push that process on any, the lists are looked at
07:40
It's not hip40
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ken340
what i am saying is those real spoofer are getting away. legit users get busted
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:41 AM
Put in an addition request then
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so its the community job to report?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:41 AM
They can, but it's not the only way to get on the list
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to get in the list. i personally think. 1. must establish a rule.
07:43
2. make the rule known
07:43
3. a fair method. not add without checking,
07:43
maybe make community at large to verify (edited)
07:44
not just include without really checking
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ken340
to get in the list. i personally think. 1. must establish a rule.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:46 AM
1) don't game
07:47
3) results are checked , it's why the process is so slow
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i dont game
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
1) don't game
It's still not established what is considered gaming and what is not
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:47 AM
Altering meta data
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Damn ..AGAIN. Whole small twn got banned. After appaels they were removed... i think someone just cppied old denylist 😦
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:47 AM
Or stuffing witnesses / multi packet forwarders
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i use your app to check where is the best place to put my HS
07:48
i don't alter meta data - i dont even know how
07:49
i don't stuffing witness /multi packet forwarders - i don't even know how
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Or stuffing witnesses / multi packet forwarders
See this is exactly the problem
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when my HS not working i ask support for help
07:50
support remotely factory reset
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Helium teammembers with a green name already mentioned that multiple packet forwarders (to one and only one hotspot) can have legitimate use cases (edited)
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FezzFest
Helium teammembers with a green name already mentioned that multiple packet forwarders (to one and only one hotspot) can have legitimate use cases (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:50 AM
They can't without changes to the code
07:50
Which could be done with a hip to support multi
07:50
But right now there are issues doing it for devices (sensors)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They can't without changes to the code
Actually, if you put some intelligence in the middle (that doesn't alter metadata), it should work fine
07:53
But that was not my point
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Current consensus of the powers that be say multiple pf’s to single miner is fine. (Helium team and at least one list signer)
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The point is, there should be a clear list of rules
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FezzFest
But that was not my point
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:53 AM
Well
07:54
Hip40 is about leaving it to the community to decide really
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Because there isn't any right now and everyone is constantly arguing about what's allowed and what is not
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:54 AM
Many lists of different detection methods could exist
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Even highly respected community members and Helium mods don't agree
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FezzFest
Even highly respected community members and Helium mods don't agree
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:54 AM
Yeah it's what hip40 helps with
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Regardless of what the rules are, the framework (HIP40) is a must. (edited)
👍 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:55 AM
Hip40 makes it a consensus method of what gaming is by choice of what lists are used
💯 1
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groot
Regardless of what the rules are, the framework (HIP40) is a must. (edited)
But the framework can at least specify there must be a clear set of rules, regardless of what those rules entail
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:55 AM
A decentralised way of deciding what gaming is
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FezzFest
But the framework can at least specify there must be a clear set of rules, regardless of what those rules entail
The framework is about technology not governance.
👍 3
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The framework by itself is part of governance
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FezzFest
The framework by itself is part of governance
As far as I know the HIP is specifically worded not to be.
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there are so many things which are unclear. for example. antenna height. it is above your ground level, above mean sea level, GPS ALT. pressure altitude. no one know. i am sure 80% just put roughly
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noun: governance the action or manner of governing a state, organization, etc. archaic: rule; control
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:59 AM
Yeah there are changes coming, hip40 will only layout the framework for the system
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What are HIPs other than a set of rules to manage the Helium network?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 7:59 AM
The decentralised nature of the network leaves governance up to consensus of validator operators
08:00
Rather than one centralised entity
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if then should follow blockchain method. zero knowledge proof.
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FezzFest
What are HIPs other than a set of rules to manage the Helium network?
Some HIP may provide a set of rules, this one provides a framework to be used in a decentralised way. (edited)
👍 1
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But the framework is a set of rules, just a set of rules that validators can choose to follow or not to follow
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FezzFest
But the framework is a set of rules, just a set of rules that validators can choose to follow or not to follow
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 8:03 AM
Yes but what gaming is comes from whatever the list makers decide is gaming
08:03
And then if the community supports it those lists are used
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yes but what gaming is comes from whatever the list makers decide is gaming
I agree
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FezzFest
I agree
at least there is a list
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I'm just arguing that it's in the interest of both the network and the HIP that those lists aren't completely arbitrary
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these are spoofing to the next level
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 8:21 AM
But none have antennas attached
08:21
Lol
08:22
The first one has the antenna jack removed too
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The first one has the antenna jack removed too
May I ask how to remove the blacklist list?
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OG999
May I ask how to remove the blacklist list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 8:26 AM
You can request removal here
08:26
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
You can request removal here
I just bought a batch of second-hand ones, which are blacklisted. There is basically no response to the application. Is it automatically released after a period of time?
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OG999
I just bought a batch of second-hand ones, which are blacklisted. There is basically no response to the application. Is it automatically released after a period of time?
You should have checked the deny list and/or helium explorer or hotspotty before buying... Thats's step1 when buying used hotspots. (edited)
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OG999
I just bought a batch of second-hand ones, which are blacklisted. There is basically no response to the application. Is it automatically released after a period of time?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 8:31 AM
Not automatically, it does take time
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Chris12
You should have checked the deny list and/or helium explorer or hotspotty before buying... Thats's step1 when buying used hotspots. (edited)
Does the app give a warning already when trying to transfer a banned hotspot?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Not automatically, it does take time
Then how to deploy it if you don't delete the list? Will it become a brick and be abandoned? Has helium officially published some clear provisions on the disposal of the rejection list?
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OG999
Then how to deploy it if you don't delete the list? Will it become a brick and be abandoned? Has helium officially published some clear provisions on the disposal of the rejection list?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 8:37 AM
I wouldn't recommend buying denylist hotspots to start but you have to wait for the deny list removal to be done
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I wouldn't recommend buying denylist hotspots to start but you have to wait for the deny list removal to be done
Did you say how long it will take to delete it? The merchant I bought won't give me a refund. Now I'm helpless and don't know what to do!
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OG999
Did you say how long it will take to delete it? The merchant I bought won't give me a refund. Now I'm helpless and don't know what to do!
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 8:40 AM
There is no defined time
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There is no defined time
Has China's 470 market been abandoned by helium? There is a list of rejections everywhere.
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OG999
Has China's 470 market been abandoned by helium? There is a list of rejections everywhere.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/23/2022 8:44 AM
They don't favour any one region, same rules for everyone
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470 market?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They don't favour any one region, same rules for everyone
OK, thank you for your patient answer!
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janahi
R u getting any witnesses. I have 3 of them in 3 different location all of them in denylist and not getting any witnesses also hasn't mine even half hnt😐
What is the denylist?
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Fizzy
470 market?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/23/2022 10:21 AM
That's their frequency
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FezzFest
Does the app give a warning already when trying to transfer a banned hotspot?
I don't know... Never dealt with second hand hotspots.
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@ken340 did they response your problem?
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YTLin
@ken340 did they response your problem?
no respose
19:50
i saw @LaRisposta4 posted on poc-discussion and on github. same result
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ken340
i saw @LaRisposta4 posted on poc-discussion and on github. same result
LaRisposta4 02/23/2022 9:53 PM
We can only hope and wait dude 🤞
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can I do more then 1 HS removal request on 1 'new issue' from denylist thru github option? or i have to fill in 1 request for each HS?
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ukfab
can I do more then 1 HS removal request on 1 'new issue' from denylist thru github option? or i have to fill in 1 request for each HS?
one request for all
00:32
but doubt that anyone will unban large numbers of hotspots
00:33
when they ban large numbers, definitely a issue there..in some cases some innocent hotspot gets banned too...
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Whoo is gonna remove my hotspots from denylist☹
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janahi
Whoo is gonna remove my hotspots from denylist☹
I guess your best chance is to ask the reviewers why your HS has been added. You can find the reviewers on github
03:27
Updates from the community Co-authored-by: Joe &lt;6339738+jcronyn@users.noreply.github.com&gt; Co-authored-by: Anthony Anderson &lt;fnanderson93@gmail.com&gt; Co-authored-by: ...
03:28
@molano is on discord, I don't know about the other though
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Testa
I guess your best chance is to ask the reviewers why your HS has been added. You can find the reviewers on github
I have tested everything so i test this one as welll. Thank you
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see. people are calling help for this issue. they wouldn't show up. however, if someone points out the vagueness of the list, others would jump out to say we shouldn't support cheater or maybe u r the cheater. they did the good job.
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LaRisposta4 02/24/2022 4:29 AM
I think the latest release of denylist was the most controversial ... countless hs removal requests that had already been removed in previous releases...btw I think the only thing we can do is wait a new version in the following days (I hope)
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LaRisposta4
I think the latest release of denylist was the most controversial ... countless hs removal requests that had already been removed in previous releases...btw I think the only thing we can do is wait a new version in the following days (I hope)
OptimusPrime 02/24/2022 6:15 AM
Previous removals don’t mean the removed ones are not cheating. There might be some flaws in the review process of the first round. With gamers/cheaters getting better, the detection methods/algos might get better too. (edited)
06:15
If I remember correctly, in the first round there were only one or two people from the helium team for the entire review process. (edited)
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OptimusPrime
Previous removals don’t mean the removed ones are not cheating. There might be some flaws in the review process of the first round. With gamers/cheaters getting better, the detection methods/algos might get better too. (edited)
LaRisposta4 02/24/2022 6:46 AM
Or detection methods/algos are wrong or do mistakes..it depends on your point of view...trust me, if you are legit and without any reason you are re-added into this list is really frustrating...
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LaRisposta4
Or detection methods/algos are wrong or do mistakes..it depends on your point of view...trust me, if you are legit and without any reason you are re-added into this list is really frustrating...
OptimusPrime 02/24/2022 6:47 AM
I agree with legit ones. (edited)
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LaRisposta4 02/24/2022 6:48 AM
I put my face into this because I am 100% sure that I am honest...I am here for explain everything if Helium Team need it
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LaRisposta4
I put my face into this because I am 100% sure that I am honest...I am here for explain everything if Helium Team need it
Same here
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LaRisposta4
I put my face into this because I am 100% sure that I am honest...I am here for explain everything if Helium Team need it
it's never end, the best way is sold it and get new one. if you are not a gamer.
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OptimusPrime
Previous removals don’t mean the removed ones are not cheating. There might be some flaws in the review process of the first round. With gamers/cheaters getting better, the detection methods/algos might get better too. (edited)
Seriously? the case has been appeal, reviewed, removed and closed. and you said u r still on suspicious list. even no need to info them your hotspot will back to list. please give them more torture.
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OptimusPrime
If I remember correctly, in the first round there were only one or two people from the helium team for the entire review process. (edited)
maybe next month would said there were only "few people" from the helium team for the entire review process. how many is enough? people want to know or can't make rule again because cheater would know the secrets. (edited)
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YTLin
Seriously? the case has been appeal, reviewed, removed and closed. and you said u r still on suspicious list. even no need to info them your hotspot will back to list. please give them more torture.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 9:18 AM
Look at the poc channel. They were not actually removed. An older list was grabbed. This latest list corrected that error.
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YTLin
Seriously? the case has been appeal, reviewed, removed and closed. and you said u r still on suspicious list. even no need to info them your hotspot will back to list. please give them more torture.
OptimusPrime 02/24/2022 9:25 AM
Any case can be re-opened; take a look at the cold police cases. Just chill a little bit as I stated 'If I remember correctly, ...'. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong.
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ya you are always right. i just want to give words to those people who are still trying to proof themself. don't waste time. real life is more better. sold it and get life back.
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YTLin
maybe next month would said there were only "few people" from the helium team for the entire review process. how many is enough? people want to know or can't make rule again because cheater would know the secrets. (edited)
OptimusPrime 02/24/2022 9:32 AM
You can see how many people are working on the denylist in the github. I remember only two were on it before/after the first commit and was wondering if it is enough 😂. Correct me if I am wrong. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Look at the poc channel. They were not actually removed. An older list was grabbed. This latest list corrected that error.
Which list were wrong?
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LaRisposta4
Which list were wrong?
Just to be clear, was there a denylist release, as in a tag, on which you did not appear?
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LaRisposta4
Which list were wrong?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:15 AM
It's not so much the list was wrong.. A older list was grabbed and sent out.
11:16
Those hotspots were not on that list, so they looked like they were removed. When the latest list went out, it had the up to date list of hotspots, making it look like some hotspots were added back.
11:17
Make sense? 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Make sense? 🙂
It makes sense but it is not true in his case, he was actually removed in 2022020201 and absent in multiple list releases up until the latest one 2022022201.
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groot
It makes sense but it is not true in his case, he was actually removed in 2022020201 and absent in multiple list releases up until the latest one 2022022201.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:21 AM
Hmm.... Capcom indicated otherwise.
11:22
Got the link to the case where they were removed?
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As I explained before, there was no wrong denylist release. The miner picked an older tag to download instead of the latest one, but the contents of each tag were correct.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Got the link to the case where they were removed?
I just searched each csv for the address.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Got the link to the case where they were removed?
Multiple examples have been posted in chat and re-added with 2nd removal on git
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Kuleramme
Multiple examples have been posted in chat and re-added with 2nd removal on git
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:37 AM
Those examples were just closed. Nothing said they were removed.
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No explanation is given on closes whether it's addition or removal. Look at the csv files and you'll see the resolution.
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groot
No explanation is given on closes whether it's addition or removal. Look at the csv files and you'll see the resolution.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:41 AM
Isn't the csv the result of the wrong version of the list being sent out?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/24/2022 11:42 AM
each csv was right, but the latest tag regressed to an older version
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11:42
so for a brief time the wrong one went out to hotspots
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There is no wrong version... I've explained a few times now how it went wrong, not doing it again.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/24/2022 11:43 AM
hotspots check for the latest tag every 6 hours
11:43
for a brief time latest was tagged on the wrong release
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groot
There is no wrong version... I've explained a few times now how it went wrong, not doing it again.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:43 AM
You didn't explain. You just keep saying the same thing.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
each csv was right, but the latest tag regressed to an older version
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:44 AM
Then what was capcom talking about?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/24/2022 11:44 AM
the same thing
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1) miner asks for latest tag: gets tag B 2) miner uses tag B 3) miner aks for latest tag: suddenly gets tag A (an older one) 4) miner thinks it's newer and uses tag A
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groot
1) miner asks for latest tag: gets tag B 2) miner uses tag B 3) miner aks for latest tag: suddenly gets tag A (an older one) 4) miner thinks it's newer and uses tag A
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:46 AM
I guess I don't understand these "tags". Aren't the hotspots just checking against a csv file?
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A tag is a attached to a specific git commit in order to provide context. The 2022020201 is the name of the tag that is attached to the specific commit which is a (long) hash. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/24/2022 11:47 AM
they ask git for /latest
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:47 AM
hmm... so it's not a local updated copy, but instead checking a remote list every time.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/24/2022 11:47 AM
every 6 hours it fetches it (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
hmm... so it's not a local updated copy, but instead checking a remote list every time.
No, every 6 hours it downloads (if newer) the list associated with the latest tag and it uses that for 6 hours. The "if newer" part messed up due to something going wrong with the tags that github reported as being the latest. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those hotspots were not on that list, so they looked like they were removed. When the latest list went out, it had the up to date list of hotspots, making it look like some hotspots were added back.
Yes, but i don’t understand which list…i was included in The first (26 of january) and removed with The second (2 of February) and re added in The last
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groot
It makes sense but it is not true in his case, he was actually removed in 2022020201 and absent in multiple list releases up until the latest one 2022022201.
Exact
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LaRisposta4
Exact
How does your setup look like (technically, not visually)? Anything non-standard? (edited)
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groot
How does your setup look like (technically, not visually)? Anything non-standard? (edited)
No, Bobcat with standard antenna, i was added because The previous owner did spoofing but i attached all The log of The miner included The transfer transaction and give the evidence that since te hs is mine no cheating or gaming is done
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 12:13 PM
Sorry, was away in a work meeting. 🙂
12:16
So... The hotspots were actually re-added to the list. So either the removed hotspots started cheating again, or new info came to light that they shouldn't have been removed in the first place?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So... The hotspots were actually re-added to the list. So either the removed hotspots started cheating again, or new info came to light that they shouldn't have been removed in the first place?
No dude…trust me…i am total transparent, as wrote today i am available to answer to all questions or give everything information…i put My face in this because i am legit…no evidence that i am cheating or gaming…i provider evidence that i am legit…i am sure that during The latest release there were some mistakes
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LaRisposta4
No dude…trust me…i am total transparent, as wrote today i am available to answer to all questions or give everything information…i put My face in this because i am legit…no evidence that i am cheating or gaming…i provider evidence that i am legit…i am sure that during The latest release there were some mistakes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 12:28 PM
It was a question. Not saying you're not legit. 🙂
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12:30
The reviewers need to just come out and say either "Yes, there was a screw up. We're making a fix a priority", or "These hotspots were re-added for a good reason". Simple.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The reviewers need to just come out and say either "Yes, there was a screw up. We're making a fix a priority", or "These hotspots were re-added for a good reason". Simple.
Right, totale agree with you…more tranparent means less complain and less stress 😅 honestly these two days were frustrating…trying to talk with someone Who can help you to understand or explain again The same things…hope they say something as soon as they can…thanks for your feedback 🤙 (edited)
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LaRisposta4
Right, totale agree with you…more tranparent means less complain and less stress 😅 honestly these two days were frustrating…trying to talk with someone Who can help you to understand or explain again The same things…hope they say something as soon as they can…thanks for your feedback 🤙 (edited)
How long ago did you get it again?
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groot
How long ago did you get it again?
I was added First time into release 26 january 2022, removed into release 02 February 2022 and re added into release 22 February 2022 (The lates)
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LaRisposta4
I was added First time into release 26 january 2022, removed into release 02 February 2022 and re added into release 22 February 2022 (The lates)
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/24/2022 12:53 PM
I think @groot is asking when you received the hotspot from the seller
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I think @groot is asking when you received the hotspot from the seller
Ah sorry, i received it at The end of november as showed to The transaction log
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/24/2022 12:56 PM
If it has been legit since November, why where you even added on the 26 jan list then😕
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NL_Miniterror_NL
If it has been legit since November, why where you even added on the 26 jan list then😕
🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ i think spoofing isn’t legit but not punished…btw i think an algorythm select hs like mine but it is my opinion…i don’t know what give more to give evidence that i am legit 😅
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/24/2022 1:00 PM
You dont have to show me anything, im just a end user and have 0 influence. I understand the situation you have been added, then got removed in a later list and the got added again. Just thinking out loud why you got added in the first place on the Januari list if the miner itself is yours since November, something in the algorithm is flagging your miner
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I think you're miner has just been false flagged, but they might have more information than I do.
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groot
I think you're miner has just been false flagged, but they might have more information than I do.
LaRisposta4 02/24/2022 1:05 PM
Hope they remove me in The next release 🤞
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Neil, should there be an alternative channel for this stuff so this channel can be dedicated to HIP40?
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groot
Neil, should there be an alternative channel for this stuff so this channel can be dedicated to HIP40?
LaRisposta4 02/24/2022 1:12 PM
Yes sorry for The offtopic
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So... The hotspots were actually re-added to the list. So either the removed hotspots started cheating again, or new info came to light that they shouldn't have been removed in the first place?
think maybe we are still misunderstanding the logic of what Capcom said? I understood that the removals were correct. and the list was accurate for a few tags. then for some reason an older version of list was tagged as latest from before the legit removals were done and that is why they were inadvertently re-added. I do not believe they were purposely supposed to be re-added. it was some tag issue with which list was the most current (edited)
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stranqe
think maybe we are still misunderstanding the logic of what Capcom said? I understood that the removals were correct. and the list was accurate for a few tags. then for some reason an older version of list was tagged as latest from before the legit removals were done and that is why they were inadvertently re-added. I do not believe they were purposely supposed to be re-added. it was some tag issue with which list was the most current (edited)
it is not a tag issue. the HS is in the latest list
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there was an issue as addressed by Capcom and others previously. for some reason GitHub started using a not up to date version of list as most current and the HSs all downloaded this regressed version without all the latest updates
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stranqe
there was an issue as addressed by Capcom and others previously. for some reason GitHub started using a not up to date version of list as most current and the HSs all downloaded this regressed version without all the latest updates
we know. but his HS (I beileve it was his) was actually removed and re-added
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13:17
the lists are all on github
13:17
you can check
13:17
issue # 75
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I don't know the specific hotspot you are referencing here. I'm just clarifying what capcom was referring to when he said there was an issue with "regressed" version of list (edited)
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stranqe
think maybe we are still misunderstanding the logic of what Capcom said? I understood that the removals were correct. and the list was accurate for a few tags. then for some reason an older version of list was tagged as latest from before the legit removals were done and that is why they were inadvertently re-added. I do not believe they were purposely supposed to be re-added. it was some tag issue with which list was the most current (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 1:27 PM
cap said the current list is accurate.
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that wasn't my understanding of it but I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. I read it as the current list will fix the issues but rereading it now I can see your pov too. (edited)
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stranqe
that wasn't my understanding of it but I can see how it can be interpreted both ways. I read it as the current list will fix the issues but rereading it now I can see your pov too. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 1:42 PM
I mean, that's literally what he said. lol
capcom — Today at 8:58 AM there was some kind of regression where the denylist tag (the release version) rolled back. the current list is accurate and up to date
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13:43
hmm.. I see what you're saying..
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yes I see your pov and I'm assuming yours is more correct😝
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 1:43 PM
I guess what he should have said to clear things up is "the current tag being used is correct"
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yes exactly
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Let's be clear here: For HS: 11Yx9JyaimtjHNsAXuaSyriBFR6erpcsWR2NkSVU3ygqt3vs8q4 This PR: https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/409 Closes this Removal request: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/337 ... by NOT including it in the Feb 9 released denylist: https://github.com/helium/denylist/commit/18a64b8969432ee615bc834b6a316a2d9b42881b (The DIFF shows it being removed) Then in the PR from Feb 22, the diff shows it being re-added: https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/1474/files Similar goes for several other hotspots. (edited)
15:17
@capcom apparently didn't understand the issue so commented on something else... and by not understanding the issue he actually seem to have made a false statement (edited)
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stranqe
yes exactly
LaRisposta4 02/24/2022 3:18 PM
Understand your thoughts but in my case, if they don’t explain me WHY i will continue to consider me legit because The evidence that i send to them are clear. It will be interesting what you think, try to read The requests 75 and The file attached and The multiple explanationi give to other admin..thanks guys ☺
15:19
@capcom i hope you can help me to understand what happened in my case, thanks so much ☺
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those examples were just closed. Nothing said they were removed.
The commit shows them being removed. For example 11Yx9JyaimtjHNsAXuaSyriBFR6erpcsWR2NkSVU3ygqt3vs8q4 is removed in the DIFF for this commit: https://github.com/helium/denylist/commit/18a64b8969432ee615bc834b6a316a2d9b42881b
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Kuleramme
The commit shows them being removed. For example 11Yx9JyaimtjHNsAXuaSyriBFR6erpcsWR2NkSVU3ygqt3vs8q4 is removed in the DIFF for this commit: https://github.com/helium/denylist/commit/18a64b8969432ee615bc834b6a316a2d9b42881b
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 3:39 PM
There has been a lot of information between that comment and now. Please read the full thread first.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There has been a lot of information between that comment and now. Please read the full thread first.
Well, I guess you understand and agree now then 🙂
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Hi, my device has been added to denylist just because some random user gave a theory of something he clearly has no idea of. What’s the quickest way to get the device off the list. As I have not got a reply back for appeal case.
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akil.evlat
Hi, my device has been added to denylist just because some random user gave a theory of something he clearly has no idea of. What’s the quickest way to get the device off the list. As I have not got a reply back for appeal case.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 5:16 AM
Please don't spam channels with the same message, I've replied to you in #general
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Please don't spam channels with the same message, I've replied to you in #general
agian very sorry 🙂
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Can anyone tell me how those algorithms pick a hs to place it on deny list. I hear alot of people got placed without any legit reason. What is being considered cheating besides spoofing and packet forwarding
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_K8_
Can anyone tell me how those algorithms pick a hs to place it on deny list. I hear alot of people got placed without any legit reason. What is being considered cheating besides spoofing and packet forwarding
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 6:59 AM
The information about how hotspots are selected isn't made public
07:00
I can say (and you can watch the video soon) that all entries are checked, including removal requests , this process is done in batches
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I can say (and you can watch the video soon) that all entries are checked, including removal requests , this process is done in batches
Why are there that many false positives then recently? Do you have any evidence of the checks? The current list has been signed less than 3h after it was published. How do you review 10000 HS in 3h?
07:15
If every entry has been revuewed ut should be fairly quick to explain people here, at least broadly, why they are on the list..
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facepalm 1
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Testa
Why are there that many false positives then recently? Do you have any evidence of the checks? The current list has been signed less than 3h after it was published. How do you review 10000 HS in 3h?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:20 AM
like i said, video coming soon from the poc security working group meeting
07:20
there is confirmation in the video of what happens
07:20
and remember, helium run the deny list
07:21
I'm just a community member
07:21
so i cant explain anything
07:21
lol
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I know, but you said the list is reviewed, therefore the question for evidence. The list is public, why not make the review output public?
07:22
Or at least answer the people here that believe they are for no reason on the list?
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Testa
I know, but you said the list is reviewed, therefore the question for evidence. The list is public, why not make the review output public?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:24 AM
because that would reveal methods of detection
07:24
which hackers would just work to avoid
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
because that would reveal methods of detection
Not if it is generic. E.g. modification of metadata has been detected
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
which hackers would just work to avoid
They already avoid detection. Hence the ton of addition-requests. Poor statistical analysis of RF signals alone is the most likely reason for the current situation. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:27 AM
thats why we need to replace it with hip40 😉
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I'm not sure that's going to fix anything. If I understand HIP40 correctly, you'll end up with a bunch of denylists which will get voted on... and everyone will pass because most here do want to get rid of cheaters... and the denylist won't contain sufficient information for voters to decide on HS-basis why they are on a certain list.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats why we need to replace it with hip40 😉
Nothing jn the current proposal of HIP40 fixes this..
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:29 AM
it makes the lists public
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current denylist is also public
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:29 AM
it also means list makers need to show how the list is generated
07:29
or they wont get support
07:29
and have a removal process
07:30
and its not just a few team memebers doing it, its a much larger pool of people validating hotspots
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it makes the lists public
The list is public.. This reads like all of it is based on hope. Nothing is mandated in HIP40. Why not hope that gamers stop?
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Testa
The list is public.. This reads like all of it is based on hope. Nothing is mandated in HIP40. Why not hope that gamers stop?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:30 AM
say i have a list of 50k hotspots (edited)
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current denylist is supported by the ones signing it... and it was voted on by community the way it is now.... i think any denylist will pass... and again... Helium's list will not contain any evidence, right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:30 AM
would you use it if i told you no info about it?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and its not just a few team memebers doing it, its a much larger pool of people validating hotspots
A central team with paid employees can't manage a single list but validators should review multiple lists constantly?
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Helium will continue publish a list that they generate based on hidden process, right? Do you honestly believe it will not pass a vote?
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Validators dont earn for reviewing lists. And validator earnings are already low
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Testa
A central team with paid employees can't manage a single list but validators should review multiple lists constantly?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:32 AM
nope
07:32
i dont expect validators to, i expect there will likely be an agregator of lists that will manage one main list, run by the community
07:32
its too much work for validators
07:33
but we cant define that or force that, because this is decentralised
07:33
(my personal view)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i dont expect validators to, i expect there will likely be an agregator of lists that will manage one main list, run by the community
Why not add financial compensation to the HIP for that list maintainer and reviewer?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:33 AM
I did suggest that
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but we cant define that or force that, because this is decentralised
Yeah thats where you rely on hope. Unfortunately that is bound to fail in my experience ;)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:34 AM
cool, dont vote for hip40 then
07:34
😉
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HIP40 is OKish... it just doesn't solve the problem. You were forced to remove the only thing that could help with the real problem; governance (edited)
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I wont.just wrote here because you said the list is reviewed. We have yet to see evidence for that
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Testa
I wont.just wrote here because you said the list is reviewed. We have yet to see evidence for that
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:35 AM
again, video coming to confirm this
07:35
I'm not just making it up
07:35
lol
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looking forward to the video for sure
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
again, video coming to confirm this
Im sure it answers why there are that many false positives recently?
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Testa
Im sure it answers why there are that many false positives recently?
Alleged false positives, many removal requests are less than convincing (edited)
💯 1
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but again... crappy RF signal analysis gives crappy denylists regardless of someone calling that analysis a "review" (edited)
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Kuleramme
but again... crappy RF signal analysis gives crappy denylists regardless of someone calling that analysis a "review" (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:37 AM
care to recommend a better way?
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Kuleramme
but again... crappy RF signal analysis gives crappy denylists regardless of someone calling that analysis a "review" (edited)
To be fair we dont know why HS end up there. Not just RF analysis, there are HS that have never beaconed or witnessed on that list. Every RF analysis would fail
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
care to recommend a better way?
How about including the basic requirements for a fair trial in the HIP?
07:38
Based on human rights?
facepalm 1
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:39 AM
thats not a better way
07:39
that is a centralised way
👆 1
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That should not be too controversial
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
care to recommend a better way?
Sure. Do better analysis and include more parameters before using the banhammer.... and reach out to those that are possibly falsely caught to learn how to do a better analysis. Right now its useless to put in discord handles on the removal requests becaues nobody cares.
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Kuleramme
Sure. Do better analysis and include more parameters before using the banhammer.... and reach out to those that are possibly falsely caught to learn how to do a better analysis. Right now its useless to put in discord handles on the removal requests becaues nobody cares.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:39 AM
please write a hip
💯 1
07:39
detail how to do it
07:39
"better analysis" is what exactly
07:39
lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
thats not a better way
Haha so you would accept the violation of human rights for the sake of your HIP?
facepalm 1
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Testa
Haha so you would accept the violation of human rights for the sake of your HIP?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:39 AM
there are no rights being broken here
07:40
no one is guaranteed to earn
👆 1
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I dont know what they do now and know nothing about RF analysis. Me getting denylisted for running a legit hotspot just means they did a crap job.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:40 AM
there is no contract
07:40
lol
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Kuleramme
I dont know what they do now and know nothing about RF analysis. Me getting denylisted for running a legit hotspot just means they did a crap job.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:40 AM
then understand we've thought about every angle here
07:40
its why hip40 has no governance
07:40
its the only way it can exist
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there is no contract
You dont need a contract. Really not! You introduce a mechanism that may lead to financial losses to innocent participants
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Testa
You dont need a contract. Really not! You introduce a mechanism that may lead to financial losses to innocent participants
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:41 AM
allegedly innocent (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
allegedly innocent (edited)
No. Innocent. It creates the option, you can't deny that. That is excatly the point.
👎 1
07:42
There is nothing to ensure at least a basic level of fairness
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What I have concluded so far though; they use RF analysis and don't take into account enough parameters in the analysis. What parameters they use I have no idea... but it's flawed
07:44
maybe signals running accross various topographies affect the signal in a way they don't account for
07:45
without us knowing anything about the analysis we can't even help them sharpen it
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Kuleramme
without us knowing anything about the analysis we can't even help them sharpen it
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:45 AM
or
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Kuleramme
What I have concluded so far though; they use RF analysis and don't take into account enough parameters in the analysis. What parameters they use I have no idea... but it's flawed
It is often mire trivial. The last update relies on community reports. Which is a good thing, the problem is that there are many entries that are clearly false positives like "my neighbour earns much more, add him".
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:45 AM
we write our own detection methods
07:45
seek support from validators
07:45
and then we do know 😉
07:45
exactly what hip40 is proposing
👆 1
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well.. is that going to remove the Helium denylist with the crap analysis they do?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:46 AM
yep
07:46
hip40 is a replacement for it
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so Helium won't publish a denylist anymore?
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They're free to publish a list but it won't be the list.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:47 AM
I believe there may be a period where they run it untill hip40 is in fully with other lists
07:47
but its opt in from validators
07:47
and i dont believe the aim is for helium to run one forever
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When to use hip40?
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All i'm saying is... i believe they will continue run one... and validators will include it by default because it's from Helium
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 7:47 AM
when we vote on it
07:48
it was confirmed in the call when its voted its top priority for them to replace the current system
💯 3
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LaRisposta4 02/25/2022 7:48 AM
can't wait! 😄 😉
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Testa
It is often mire trivial. The last update relies on community reports. Which is a good thing, the problem is that there are many entries that are clearly false positives like "my neighbour earns much more, add him".
I will have to assume they do their own RF analysis / review of every hotspot the community suggested. Anything else would be stupid.
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I hope the analysis will take into account. High rise apartment where there will be some HS in the same building but different floor.
07:59
Not every one stay in a landed property.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
when we vote on it
Do we know when the next batch is, for appeal for denylist? As playmo2 has closed some cases after reading our explanation on GitHub but my device as I previously stated is already on the denylist 😢
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/25/2022 9:57 AM
there is no defined time
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
there is no defined time
😢😭 Thanks mate..
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
LaRisposta4 02/25/2022 8:41 PM
Good work Team 💪
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/25/2022 10:41 PM
Will this also be on YT? Vimeo needs to login as its a 'not rated' video
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Hello, administrator, I bought 4 devices on a second-hand website. They are blacklisted. I am currently deploying them. What supporting materials do I need? Live photos? Rental contract?
22:56
What materials need to be uploaded?
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I bought two, too. I don't know if that's a good idea
23:37
If this does not work, it is not known whether the list of devices will be banned from trading
23:38
I see a lot doing business in this
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Will this also be on YT? Vimeo needs to login as its a 'not rated' video
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/26/2022 1:34 AM
nope they just go on vimeo
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
nope they just go on vimeo
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/26/2022 1:47 AM
How can the video be rated so we dont need a account. Not looking for another account on some service i will not/bearly use..
01:47
But i am interested in watching the video
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Will this also be on YT? Vimeo needs to login as its a 'not rated' video
You can download without account
01:55
And watch local.
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molano
You can download without account
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/26/2022 2:02 AM
This is all i see https://ibb.co/fnjrMHq
02:02
No downloadbutton
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NL_Miniterror_NL
No downloadbutton
Under description? I did it on pc and had button to download. Could even choose resolution.
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molano
Under description? I did it on pc and had button to download. Could even choose resolution.
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/26/2022 2:05 AM
Nope, https://ibb.co/DYP56bP. Gonna check on pc
02:08
Able to download on PC indeed, but sure is a "way" to watch a video😅
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/26/2022 2:15 AM
sign up an account?
02:15
if you want to watch future videos there looks like you need to anyways
02:15
dewi videos always go there
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Long_Live_Trust 02/26/2022 9:18 PM
I feel pain seeing everday cheaters are earning and enrolling the network wildly and our incomes decreasing above half. This cant be explaining by pieces from the pie. Thieves are stealing the pie. Then this will be the jingle of the year 2023 for helium from me and many other honest owners: I've set up my hotspots by a designed pole, Also found the best places and put them all, Too many efforts and energy i've spent, Now i'm desperately raping by some as* hole. Will you take an action effectively now? And ban all the gamers playing all around? Otherwise the network will turn to trash, Too many hopes will die, omg what a big crash. (edited)
👍 1
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Long_Live_Trust 02/26/2022 9:29 PM
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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That’s interesting. The pattern of cases you posted is very similar with those in china. But! Helium told us they used some kind of secret algorithm for all network. I mean there must have something human can't tell. You can't trust yourself, we should trust the secret algorithm.
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And we single users with low earning are placed in ban list.
23:21
Without any hope except just wait
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ken340
Without any hope except just wait
my bro u should sell it and get new one or u can't go sleep well every night.
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YTLin
my bro u should sell it and get new one or u can't go sleep well every night.
this is not fair if you are legit...especially if you were added into the list several times without any explanation...hope they review the requests, analize and take a right decision for each users...I invested my money because i believed in the project...I can't spend again money for another hs.
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Hotspots that are not games can be removed from the denylist.
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Iron man
Hotspots that are not games can be removed from the denylist.
hopefully yes 😄 i am waiting the new release of the denylist with the reviewed cases
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this is unfair that not cheating but still be putting in the denylist, I have 2 of my device get listed last time, released soon but get listed again, not know what can I do
00:17
it is kicking honest player to quit
00:20
I gave all materials that proved my devices is at real location, and out of the list few days later, but now go again, do you guys know how hard to run between two place that over 2km, and take photo ,take notes, also need wait a few day that not sure if it can pass?
00:22
not only wait my time to prove that I am clear, also caused my miner stop for a long time with no income,why?
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DeadHead(SUI) 02/28/2022 12:41 AM
I think it is a bit unprofessional to ban that many hotspots and then not resolving the cases for such a long time
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yes, a responsible action should be make thing very carefully,not taking suspect to jail with no solid confidence
00:51
this is not like a professional should be
00:52
it is not the case that we share and enjoy our power,the people power
00:54
now it look like the whole network is conquer by dictator
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My two hotspots are in denylist, name low silver buffalo and another cheesy rainbow pangolin, both are from cloudpi , I talk about it to them with no help , they say location spoofing, but both are at same location as it’s shown.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 1:20 AM
Put an issue in
01:20
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
01:21
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io all ready done
👍 1
01:21
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io anything else can be done
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 1:21 AM
Nope , that's the only thing you can do
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io thanks
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No one handled it
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Using a VPN service may or may not be considered gaming
04:35
my telecom dial ip will change in every two days
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Will they be checking to also "exclude" the deny list one from the transmit scale algo? Cause that is also issue, the fact that they earn less helps but still effecting transmit scale.
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I started to think that the report of cheating is very stupid after reading a lot of post from the adding, someone pointing out that the height is not the same as declare, what is that?We join the blockchain with the stupid initial height of 0m, I think there will be so many miner would not take it seriously. and also some of the reason I think is not good enough to blacklist a device, like changing of ip, using vpn,it is nonsense from my point of view
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No one has reviewed the deletion request for a long time.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 5:33 AM
they review them in batches
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With 1143 open issues, one could say it might be useful to extend the review team with one or two extra people
06:01
Or make the review process more community-oriented so the community can help out
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 6:01 AM
thats what hip40 is for
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What's still missing from HIP-40 to get it implemented?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 6:08 AM
we had a poc security working group call the other day to finalise some of the stuff for it, just need to get the last bits written up and then it'll be up for vote (edited)
💯 1
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Right, that was the vimeo link linked above right? Need to check that out
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 6:19 AM
yes
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 7:02 AM
try saying that again without all the disrespectful comments
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Nope , that's the only thing you can do
Any news or udpates when the removal from denylist will be checked? As lots of unhappy people all loosing faith 😦
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/28/2022 7:15 AM
I am not part of that process, helium inc run that
07:15
I have no idea sorry
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rudiwol
Will they be checking to also "exclude" the deny list one from the transmit scale algo? Cause that is also issue, the fact that they earn less helps but still effecting transmit scale.
No, a hotspot being on the denylist won't remove it for purposes of transmit scale
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@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io : Can we have a different channel for the current denylist additions/deletions/support/discussion, then this channel for just HIP-40? Maybe even rename this channel to be "hip-40" and put "validator denylist" in the description and not the title. Also, sorry for the early (for me) at mention, I did it after checking if your were online. (edited)
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so quiet
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Iron man
so quiet
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/02/2022 1:48 PM
😻 1
😆 1
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krby
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io : Can we have a different channel for the current denylist additions/deletions/support/discussion, then this channel for just HIP-40? Maybe even rename this channel to be "hip-40" and put "validator denylist" in the description and not the title. Also, sorry for the early (for me) at mention, I did it after checking if your were online. (edited)
I agree with this, as people on the denylist have nowhere to make themselves heard, and there are hardly no replies on GitHub Appeal cases
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akil.evlat
I agree with this, as people on the denylist have nowhere to make themselves heard, and there are hardly no replies on GitHub Appeal cases
I'm not sure a different channel will help them, but it will at least not distract from this channel's discussion from the HIP
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In fact,the portion hotspots on Denylist are not game hotspots, and some are former game hotspots,After they appear on the Denylist, they find that they are wrong, and those who are willing to correct them can give them a chance.
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Now some helium fans will be so sad and so negative that they won't recommend hnt to others.
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Iron man
In fact,the portion hotspots on Denylist are not game hotspots, and some are former game hotspots,After they appear on the Denylist, they find that they are wrong, and those who are willing to correct them can give them a chance.
OptimusPrime 03/03/2022 9:40 AM
How about gamers returning hnts they cheated first? Honest miners bear the loss then forgive cheaters? That’s so easy and everyone should cheat first, then get forgiven, and continue earning. Great business plan 🤔 (edited)
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Iron man
Now some helium fans will be so sad and so negative that they won't recommend hnt to others.
OptimusPrime 03/03/2022 9:50 AM
Many will be much happier since some cheaters are gone for now 😉 (edited)
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i set my hotspot on 30th floor about 100 meters height https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1798
Hotspot Name Curly Cerulean Horse Hotspot b58 Address 1128gD8SWBkcd4G89bF8tnm2Ve58cSicvHFe9hoXD1S4EKVQeQxh Discord Handle richardxiao#9397 Hotspot Manufacturer panther X2 Removal Reason i love heli...
10:58
and i made two videos to prove i didnt cheating
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richardxiao
i set my hotspot on 30th floor about 100 meters height https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/1798
OptimusPrime 03/03/2022 12:09 PM
Feel sorry for you. But probably shouldn’t buy it without research at the first place. Ask the seller for refund and report him/her.
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OptimusPrime
How about gamers returning hnts they cheated first? Honest miners bear the loss then forgive cheaters? That’s so easy and everyone should cheat first, then get forgiven, and continue earning. Great business plan 🤔 (edited)
LaRisposta4 03/03/2022 1:40 PM
I think is more complex than this…i think every single case should be analized…what i mean is that is difficult choose a way to not do mistake and probably The only one is The one i wrote before…and it takes a lot of time because reviewers have to check in deep…so we have to wait and hope ☺☺ (edited)
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LaRisposta4
I think is more complex than this…i think every single case should be analized…what i mean is that is difficult choose a way to not do mistake and probably The only one is The one i wrote before…and it takes a lot of time because reviewers have to check in deep…so we have to wait and hope ☺☺ (edited)
OptimusPrime 03/03/2022 1:53 PM
I agree it is more complex. However, cheating farms are using removal requests to try to get their denied hotspots off the list. With more and more requests and sophisticated new methods, I am not sure the helium team + community members can handle it in a timely fashion. (edited)
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OptimusPrime
How about gamers returning hnts they cheated first? Honest miners bear the loss then forgive cheaters? That’s so easy and everyone should cheat first, then get forgiven, and continue earning. Great business plan 🤔 (edited)
maybe you're right, I hate gaming hotspots too. Let helium decide.
18:59
As you said, non-gamer hotspots are blacklisted, is there a subsidy?
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OptimusPrime
Feel sorry for you. But probably shouldn’t buy it without research at the first place. Ask the seller for refund and report him/her.
richardxiao 03/03/2022 9:59 PM
i did research and the seller says field deployment can be removed from the blacklist, some people did, that's why I bought it
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OptimusPrime
Feel sorry for you. But probably shouldn’t buy it without research at the first place. Ask the seller for refund and report him/her.
And you can't buy a new machine with the frequency band CN470 on the official website
22:03
i really like helium ,please consider about our situation
22:05
i can make more videos and pictures to prove the real location thats not easy to set the antenna on the top of building which is 30th floor and 100meters height
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/03/2022 10:06 PM
The seller... that was the cheater. And you believed them? 🤨
👍 2
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i saw some one did it successfully
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richardxiao
i can make more videos and pictures to prove the real location thats not easy to set the antenna on the top of building which is 30th floor and 100meters height
Do you already opened a request on github?
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LaRisposta4
Do you already opened a request on github?
Hotspot Name Curly Cerulean Horse Hotspot b58 Address 1128gD8SWBkcd4G89bF8tnm2Ve58cSicvHFe9hoXD1S4EKVQeQxh Discord Handle richardxiao#9397 Hotspot Manufacturer panther X2 Removal Reason i love heli...
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22:10
you mean this ?
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richardxiao
you mean this ?
Ok so we have to wait The work of The reviewers, try to give all The evidence you can to prove you aren’t a Cheater
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thank you I will add more pictures and videos to prove I am not cheating
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Im on the list for no reason at all (curly snowy piranha). Same with my dad (clever mango pelican). Ive posted requests to github to no avail. Im being completely ignored. I didnt wait 30 weeks for my unit to be treated like this. Does anyone know if helium plans to fix this? Honest hotspot owners being punished because helium doesnt take the time to verify is total BS. Im a Bitcoiner first, and as Bitcoiners say "Dont trust, VERIFY"!
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CryptoMike
Im on the list for no reason at all (curly snowy piranha). Same with my dad (clever mango pelican). Ive posted requests to github to no avail. Im being completely ignored. I didnt wait 30 weeks for my unit to be treated like this. Does anyone know if helium plans to fix this? Honest hotspot owners being punished because helium doesnt take the time to verify is total BS. Im a Bitcoiner first, and as Bitcoiners say "Dont trust, VERIFY"!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/03/2022 10:30 PM
So just straight setup? No mods? Where did you buy the miners?
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I’m sure you bought it for a good, below market price because it was on the denylist… (edited)
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I believe that as long as helium is given time, there must be a fair outcome.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 12:59 AM
Calling out a country's bad behavior does not make someone a nazi. And coming in here and calling someone a nazi multiple times is a violation of the #rules
⭐️ be kind, courteous, and respectful (racism, violence, sexism, harassment, and name calling is not tolerated and you will be banned)
💯 1
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sorry for my language,but i think we should fouce on this person first
01:16
he's also violate the rules,isn't it?
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longlong
he's also violate the rules,isn't it?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:16 AM
No, they did not violate any discord rules. (edited)
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wow,"the evil brother that is china"sounds like not polite
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longlong
wow,"the evil brother that is china"sounds like not polite
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:19 AM
That is not discord. And your nazi comments are still here on this board...
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wow,if you say so,i have nothing to say
01:21
still,it's "not properly"
01:21
no language game,just common sense
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:22 AM
我在hip40板块向管理员举报了,本以为都是搞互联网的大家素质都蛮高的,没想到还有这种纳粹
01:22
Your comments are still up...
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longlong
sorry for my language,but i think we should fouce on this person first
yes,and i apologize my words
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longlong
yes,and i apologize my words
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:23 AM
If you were actually sorry, you would take down the posts.
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i'm sorry for not think twice and speak it without consideration
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you were actually sorry, you would take down the posts.
ok i will
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:24 AM
Thank you
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i'm done,should we focus on this things now?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:26 AM
Not sure what there is to focus on. They called out a country's actions and requested sanctions. What is the issue?
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you can check out removeal request,he is cheering for the chinese miner get banned,i'm not sure if cheer for some's suffering is a good idea
01:28
and country's action,yes,i dont agree the goverment behavior as well
01:28
but no need to all chiese citizens
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longlong
you can check out removeal request,he is cheering for the chinese miner get banned,i'm not sure if cheer for some's suffering is a good idea
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:28 AM
I have read the request. Would it be any different that any other sanctions against a country?
01:30
Let's be very clear here. This sort of thing is not what the denylist is for and this request will never be granted. So this is all academic at best. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Let's be very clear here. This sort of thing is not what the denylist is for and this request will never be granted. So this is all academic at best. 🙂
Hotspot Name Striped Corduroy Finch Hotspot b58 Address 13E5WwAE6cDbdXZzdv1rjU3HfghdkeRX4BnYtNYw5bJnEwNGR5g Discord Handle tao_gardner#1273 Hotspot Manufacturer PantherX2 Removal Reason I set my ma...
01:30
check this out
01:31
Hotspot Name Round Mauve Pheasant Hotspot b58 Address 11fmj1eSeHrH353dRJJFXGgkWF4JqRTpFdRbNNcnqxzoNSJBFyV Discord Handle R-Demon Hotspot Manufacturer PantherX Removal Reason I&#39;m sorry for t...
01:31
and this one
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:33 AM
Is it not true that a very large population of cheating hotspots is in or from China? There was a reason the original denylist was first targeted there.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Let's be very clear here. This sort of thing is not what the denylist is for and this request will never be granted. So this is all academic at best. 🙂
i trust our admin will not grant his request,but just want everybody to watch out this one's behavior,and it will may cause some unexpected confilcts
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Is it not true that a very large population of cheating hotspots is in or from China? There was a reason the original denylist was first targeted there.
if you kindly consider 1.3billion population into facts,it will make sense
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:35 AM
China's banking and insurance regulator said on Wednesday that the country opposes and will not join financial sanctions against Russia.
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longlong
i trust our admin will not grant his request,but just want everybody to watch out this one's behavior,and it will may cause some unexpected confilcts
So now you're threatening everyone here or am I missing some important cues here due to the language barrier?
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groot
So now you're threatening everyone here or am I missing some important cues here due to the language barrier?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:36 AM
I don't think they're threatening. Just saying that this person commenting might stir the pot a bit 🙂
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groot
So now you're threatening everyone here or am I missing some important cues here due to the language barrier?
i mean he is considering all chinese the devil,and ban all the chinese inversetment,and i think is not properly
01:37
this is rude,i'll be straight
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true,and we also not support this announcement as well.if we keep talk about this,this will become political,also violate rules
01:39
in short,just know not all chinese is support russia,that's enough
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longlong
true,and we also not support this announcement as well.if we keep talk about this,this will become political,also violate rules
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:40 AM
You might want to read them again. That rule is not in there.
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ok,i'll go recheck rules again,sorry about that
01:42
yes,there is no regulation in politics
01:43
back in this,may i request delete this user's offence comments?thanks
01:43
that's all
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:46 AM
People are dying, your country is supporting the attackers, and your concern is about something that you are viewing as rude? I think the priorities might need to be re-examined. Also, Uyghurs...
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let's ask your question one by one,shall we?
01:48
first,i would sorry for those victims during the conflicts,but the china is not like democracy country,it's more like weimar germany
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longlong
first,i would sorry for those victims during the conflicts,but the china is not like democracy country,it's more like weimar germany
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:49 AM
And the people allow it to be that way.
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(all the opinion is my personal,just in case)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And the people allow it to be that way.
please,let me finished
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longlong
(all the opinion is my personal,just in case)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:49 AM
(of course)
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in china,we have all political opinion in all political map,and we both not agress in each other,we may more divide than USA
01:51
the goverment is beyond the public opinion,we can do nothing about it
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01:51
the blood in tank track is still not dry
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01:52
so,what the goverment's decision is not ours.may we come some agreement in this concept?
01:52
if there is no problem,we can move to the next
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:53 AM
The military is made up of people. If they refuse to fight, what can your government do? Nothing.
01:53
But they do fight. They do support the government.
01:54
Government has no power if no one will follow their orders
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you are right,let me explain this would you
01:55
our military,is "mercenary",what goverment told them to do,they will obey without doubt
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:55 AM
They have a choice
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we dont have the Enlightenment movement,the people's thought not liberal than western citizen may think
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They have a choice
yes,it does,so the beijing military generail refused to obey
01:57
and it get dimissed
01:57
the 1989 was sichuan militray
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:57 AM
It takes far more than 1 general
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not the local military
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It takes far more than 1 general
no,general,not the politics
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:58 AM
(yes, I know we are way off the rails here Neil 😉 )
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/04/2022 1:58 AM
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped @longlong this rooms about hip40 not general politics, can we try to get it back on target here
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:58 AM
Sorry 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped @longlong this rooms about hip40 not general politics, can we try to get it back on target here
sorry for that
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 1:59 AM
Anyway, it's 2am here. I should get some sleep. 'night. 🙂
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good night
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped @longlong this rooms about hip40 not general politics, can we try to get it back on target here
ok,would you kindly check the post in github?appreciate
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/04/2022 2:01 AM
The current deny list is managed by helium Inc
02:01
I'm just a community member
02:01
That type of request will be deleted/closed
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many thanks!
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Tusk. Both factory Rak V2's from calchip.
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Who can provide a channel to purchase key, can remove the denyList
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Is there an issue with Rak V2's that would prompt an addition to the Denylist? My hotspot and the one I ordered for my pops are both on there for no reason at all. Both came straight from Calchip. Im not getting anywhere on github. Please help!
07:01
I have two other hot spots, one bobcat and one Freedomfi. Neither is having any issues. I am now debating on if I should even bother with adding a CBRS to my Freedomfi because of this random banning issue.
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Well, any news/notice about denylist review? Our hotspots dont work since 10 days+ already ... is someone taking care to review issues?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped @longlong this rooms about hip40 not general politics, can we try to get it back on target here
I'll repeat my suggestion that a new room is created for the current Helium denylist and this room remain for HIP40 only. Maybe even rename this room to just hip-40 to reduce the folks accidentally finding this one instead of the new #helium-denylist-issues (or whatever it would be called) channel
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My appologies. I thought HIP 40 pertained to the Denylist
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CryptoMike
My appologies. I thought HIP 40 pertained to the Denylist
Angry Pickle Bear 03/04/2022 9:43 AM
it only pertains to the approval of a community-run denylist
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Ahhh. I see. So who is running the current list? Manufacturers or Helium?
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CryptoMike
Ahhh. I see. So who is running the current list? Manufacturers or Helium?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/04/2022 10:08 AM
Helium
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Thanks for the info! Wish I had joined Discord earlier! Ive been going crazy trying to get some answers.
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1400 open issues and counting
10:58
With a bit of luck we're over 1500 after the weekend
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i mean the # of issues is going to keep going, no surprises there
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capcom
i mean the # of issues is going to keep going, no surprises there
OptimusPrime 03/04/2022 11:11 AM
Wish new methods developed to deal with new farms going online recently
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wishing doesn't tend to lead to many good outcomes unfortunately 🙂
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capcom
i mean the # of issues is going to keep going, no surprises there
The number of issues, sure
11:22
But I'd expect the number of open issues to go down once in a while as well?
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it will happen in batches, the user reports are not our priority at all
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capcom
it will happen in batches, the user reports are not our priority at all
What do you mean batches? Every 2 weeks? IMHO isn’t kind said that users reports aren’t a priority, this means that The value of The users here is 0…trust me…if a legit hs is in The list is really frustrating
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users are one source of input to how the list is generated. they aren't the only or primary one, as it's obviously easy to abuse a reporting process as we're seeing already happen (there are 'report as a service' companies already)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 12:28 PM
@capcom Would it be possible to give a bit more info without giving away too much? Something like "Denied via ML", "Denied via User report", etc. These conspiracy theories thrive in this info vacuum. Perhaps we can stop at least some of it?
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capcom
users are one source of input to how the list is generated. they aren't the only or primary one, as it's obviously easy to abuse a reporting process as we're seeing already happen (there are 'report as a service' companies already)
Thanks for The clarification 😉👌
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
@capcom Would it be possible to give a bit more info without giving away too much? Something like "Denied via ML", "Denied via User report", etc. These conspiracy theories thrive in this info vacuum. Perhaps we can stop at least some of it?
More info would certainly help. "Denied via user report" is visible already though, it would be documented in one of the issues.
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Testa
More info would certainly help. "Denied via user report" is visible already though, it would be documented in one of the issues.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/05/2022 4:41 AM
I've only seen then closed. Never a note saying it was added or not.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I've only seen then closed. Never a note saying it was added or not.
the issues are not updated. some comment there would be nice (but I think that would require decisions with regards to what is ok and what not, what form of evidence is required, etc. - and nobody wants to make such decisions it seems). you can see which HS have been added though in the diff of the pull request. and you can find the issue the hotspots is reported in
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Will the appeal on denylist be reviewed today?
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Iron man
Will the appeal on denylist be reviewed today?
There is no publicly stated date/time for review batches. Best to lower your expectations and assume most reviews will take weeks
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Thank you for your answer
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Any link to the list
13:30
My HS dropped from 5 hunt daily to 3 want to see if there's anything wrong
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Nope none banned
13:43
Strange
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rawrmaan
There is no publicly stated date/time for review batches. Best to lower your expectations and assume most reviews will take weeks
You spelled months wrong.
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Can be treated in batches, everyone hates the game hotspot, suggested to deal with a batch of non-game hotspot appeals first
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@rawrmaan @tteagueI understand it takes time to investigate and check for proof etc. Just It would be fair to be as hard adding to denylist as it is for removal. For adding must be investigated also as it is for removal. Otherwise it will become tool for vendetta, everyone can report good hs to be added... and then takes ages for owner to explain hi is innocent and someone reported him to make him troubles.... (edited)
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ToHuK
@rawrmaan @tteagueI understand it takes time to investigate and check for proof etc. Just It would be fair to be as hard adding to denylist as it is for removal. For adding must be investigated also as it is for removal. Otherwise it will become tool for vendetta, everyone can report good hs to be added... and then takes ages for owner to explain hi is innocent and someone reported him to make him troubles.... (edited)
we hope Denylist is fair.
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There should be some kind of validate mapper or survey device that can report with evident.
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@Iron man "we hope" ??? Seems you are lucky not to be in denylist without reason....
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ToHuK
@Iron man "we hope" ??? Seems you are lucky not to be in denylist without reason....
my hotspot is not a gaming hotspot,It's been on the DenyList for a month now. Very afflictive....
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ToHuK
@rawrmaan @tteagueI understand it takes time to investigate and check for proof etc. Just It would be fair to be as hard adding to denylist as it is for removal. For adding must be investigated also as it is for removal. Otherwise it will become tool for vendetta, everyone can report good hs to be added... and then takes ages for owner to explain hi is innocent and someone reported him to make him troubles.... (edited)
What you mean is that the current review mechanism, the official does not seriously check, as long as you report this machine, this machine will be added to the denylist. So whether or not to join denylist is entirely a subjective judgment of community members and is completely centralized, right?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/07/2022 3:00 AM
I invite you to watch the latest security working group video
03:00
where they talk how the denylist and how every request is reviewed (edited)
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03:01
just because people can report, its also not the main source of information or what they're targeting
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Trust that HIP40 will make the project better
16:26
It's gonna need some time, but it's gonna be good
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abrahamcolombia 03/08/2022 8:09 AM
Hi, Good Morning. Can Someone on the Helium Team give us a hand to investigate a huge Gaming Scheme that we identified many days a go? We already reported on suspots.com but the owners is growing and growing. right now has 104 Hotspots all with the same altitude 2890 mts (impossible) and same witnesses. Can someone please help us? the owner address is: 136VeVFCCXNTupsHywygSf2JTkC1NA3FBWKRWpk1k7kdZT4CSgi Explorer Address : https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/136VeVFCCXNTupsHywygSf2JTkC1NA3FBWKRWpk1k7kdZT4CSgi
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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abrahamcolombia
Hi, Good Morning. Can Someone on the Helium Team give us a hand to investigate a huge Gaming Scheme that we identified many days a go? We already reported on suspots.com but the owners is growing and growing. right now has 104 Hotspots all with the same altitude 2890 mts (impossible) and same witnesses. Can someone please help us? the owner address is: 136VeVFCCXNTupsHywygSf2JTkC1NA3FBWKRWpk1k7kdZT4CSgi Explorer Address : https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/136VeVFCCXNTupsHywygSf2JTkC1NA3FBWKRWpk1k7kdZT4CSgi
I'm not Helium but I had a quick look and it looks legitimate to me. The altitude is above sea level rather than above ground level. Most of the hotspots in that wallet are yet to be deployed. The ones that are deployed are witnessing and being witnessed by other legitimate hotspots in the area. And if they are gaming - they have to be the lowest earning gamer in the network!
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abrahamcolombia
Hi, Good Morning. Can Someone on the Helium Team give us a hand to investigate a huge Gaming Scheme that we identified many days a go? We already reported on suspots.com but the owners is growing and growing. right now has 104 Hotspots all with the same altitude 2890 mts (impossible) and same witnesses. Can someone please help us? the owner address is: 136VeVFCCXNTupsHywygSf2JTkC1NA3FBWKRWpk1k7kdZT4CSgi Explorer Address : https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/136VeVFCCXNTupsHywygSf2JTkC1NA3FBWKRWpk1k7kdZT4CSgi
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/08/2022 3:09 PM
The height listed doesn't mean anything. No part of the system uses that.
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people really need to stop thinking locs are 100% correct or automatic denylist. most my miners I never setup height since it's meaningless (they are all 0 or 100. whichever I feel like atm) and most of them are 150ish meters away from actual loc to protect my hosts real address. so yes sometimes the miner looks like it's in a park. this does not mean it's not there in the area and not a legit reason for denylist reports
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stranqe
people really need to stop thinking locs are 100% correct or automatic denylist. most my miners I never setup height since it's meaningless (they are all 0 or 100. whichever I feel like atm) and most of them are 150ish meters away from actual loc to protect my hosts real address. so yes sometimes the miner looks like it's in a park. this does not mean it's not there in the area and not a legit reason for denylist reports
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/08/2022 4:00 PM
I'm very tempted to set all my locations to something silly like 10,000m. lol (edited)
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Preventing hot spots from being stolen is something I'm thinking about
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900+ Denylist issued were closed this afternoon.. Wow
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Kenny_PDY
900+ Denylist issued were closed this afternoon.. Wow
so if the Denylist issue is closed, what does that mean? They will take off the denylist or request again to take off?
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ukfab
so if the Denylist issue is closed, what does that mean? They will take off the denylist or request again to take off?
LaRisposta4 03/09/2022 2:48 AM
I think it means the request closed will be reviewed into the next release.
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OptimusPrime 03/09/2022 11:02 AM
It seems only 3236 addresses left on the list 🤔
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OptimusPrime
It seems only 3236 addresses left on the list 🤔
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/09/2022 11:09 AM
As stated by the last list, they have removed every miner from the list that hasnt done PoC activity in the last month from today. As some vendors dont use the denylist every online miner on the denylist still did a little PoC, hence they are assuming every miner that didnt do PoC in that timeframe is either offline or broken. (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL
As stated by the last list, they have removed every miner from the list that hasnt done PoC activity in the last month from today. As some vendors dont use the denylist every online miner on the denylist still did a little PoC, hence they are assuming every miner that didnt do PoC in that timeframe is either offline or broken. (edited)
OptimusPrime 03/09/2022 11:28 AM
Such a naive assumption if you know the operation. Pretty sure many of them will be back online soon. Disappointed 😤
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OptimusPrime
Such a naive assumption if you know the operation. Pretty sure many of them will be back online soon. Disappointed 😤
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/09/2022 11:29 AM
Im not saying thats my stance about this situation
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I don't think that is what they assumed at all, but hotspots with insufficient poc activity could not be accurately re-evaluated since there is no data available on them, hence the removal. They also stated a removal may be reversed quickly as they intend to do much more updates on the list. (edited)
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groot
I don't think that is what they assumed at all, but hotspots with insufficient poc activity could not be accurately re-evaluated since there is no data available on them, hence the removal. They also stated a removal may be reversed quickly as they intend to do much more updates on the list. (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/09/2022 11:32 AM
3th paragraph, first sentence. For the rest, they are either completely offline, sold, or have been recycled
11:33
To me it reads like what i said, could be language barrier though
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NL_Miniterror_NL
3th paragraph, first sentence. For the rest, they are either completely offline, sold, or have been recycled
"The rest" being the removals not included in the categories mentioned in the paragraph before, where it is mentioned that they removed all that had no activity or had sufficient activity for data analysis. At least that's how I read it. Regardless, cheat again and they will be added again. (edited)
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groot
"The rest" being the removals not included in the categories mentioned in the paragraph before, where it is mentioned that they removed all that had no activity or had sufficient activity for data analysis. At least that's how I read it. Regardless, cheat again and they will be added again. (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/09/2022 11:40 AM
The team decided to review all existing members of the denylist and remove any that have had no witness activity in the last month
11:40
Second paragraph
11:41
No activity in the last month
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"Since there are still some manufacturers that ignore the denylist, some active but listed hotspots are still able to participate and are providing useful data for analysis."
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/09/2022 11:43 AM
And they are atill on there
11:44
I read it as the 32xx that are still on there are online and did some PoC last month and are used for that named analysis. All that got removed did not do poc last month so no clear evidence anymore for them and have the offline/recycled thing
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HIP40 is better in so many ways, one of which that witnesses still make it to chain but are invalid with reason denied or something similar. That way there will always be enough data to re-evaluate previously listed hotspots. Transparency is built in with HIP40.
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groot
HIP40 is better in so many ways, one of which that witnesses still make it to chain but are invalid with reason denied or something similar. That way there will always be enough data to re-evaluate previously listed hotspots. Transparency is built in with HIP40.
You still won't know why you are on the list. Or how long it takes to get off it. And how. If the lists work like the list now innocent HS could be on multiple lists. E.g. if they use the ssme community reports..
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/09/2022 1:28 PM
Worth watching. Answers a lot of questions: https://vimeo.com/682037845
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Worth watching. Answers a lot of questions: https://vimeo.com/682037845
none of mine though, in case you posted it as answer..
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Testa
none of mine though, in case you posted it as answer..
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/09/2022 1:43 PM
Guess you didn't watch it. 🤷‍♂️
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Guess you didn't watch it. 🤷‍♂️
now that is a mature answer!
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Not sure if I missed something, but why was so many hotspots removed from the deny list? All the fake hotspots in my are are now again participating in POC activity. Should a new issue now be opened again?
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They decided to remove any hotspots which have had no activity for the past month. The idea being that they have been abandoned or retooled or something. In any case, there is no recent information to prove they are still gaming. Unfortunately this just gives most cheaters a second chance. So yes, you have to open a new issue again. And again in another month. Until this HIP implements something better, or we all get sick of it and just join them in cheating.
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Thanks for the update. So unfair at the moment, real hotspots do almost no POC activity the last couple of days but the fake ones are sending double the beacons. As you said cheating might be the way to go.
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And yet my hotspot was still not removed from the list. No cheating or whatever... I putted a ticket but seems that no body care. Someone else in the same situation ?
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new raw list and 23K hs will be re-added...unbelievable...IMHO some automatism doesn't work well
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malder
They decided to remove any hotspots which have had no activity for the past month. The idea being that they have been abandoned or retooled or something. In any case, there is no recent information to prove they are still gaming. Unfortunately this just gives most cheaters a second chance. So yes, you have to open a new issue again. And again in another month. Until this HIP implements something better, or we all get sick of it and just join them in cheating.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/09/2022 11:35 PM
That is not what the announcement said...
For the rest, they are either completely offline, sold, or have been recycled. As a reminder, any hotspot that has been removed in this change can quickly be re-added to the denylist and we plan on doing more frequent updates.
https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2225
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If i understand it correctly , just because my hotspot was online and made 1 witness in the last month it is still in the deny list ? coolcry
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Kibichev
If i understand it correctly , just because my hotspot was online and made 1 witness in the last month it is still in the deny list ? coolcry
I think yes...this time i'll put mine offline...i am desperate about this situation...
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Actually some of the hotspots around me ,did have a witness the last 30 days. like that one Digital Hazelnut Shark and yet they are out of the list.https://prnt.sc/BSoFTOC2kqrK
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"We're still working on our community based tool to replace Github Issues as it's not scalable for this use case." (https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2257) looks like HIP40 is dead in its current form. How could list operators without funding cover their effort + affort the development and maintenance of tools? Why not address this in HIP40?
Another major update. This time returning a significant number of hotspots that indeed did have a lot of activity over the last month and fit some of the characteristics described in #2225. Reminde...
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Why did all the machines remove denylist last time, there is a voting channel to decide whether to remove it, why there is no vote this time, all the machines are released, very interesting.
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Hart
Why did all the machines remove denylist last time, there is a voting channel to decide whether to remove it, why there is no vote this time, all the machines are released, very interesting.
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/10/2022 1:20 AM
Read the additional info in the PR's
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ok,thinks
01:25
Some machines will also be added to denylist in the next few days, be informed from PR.
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Hart
Some machines will also be added to denylist in the next few days, be informed from PR.
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/10/2022 1:30 AM
Yes, there already is a new PR to add 23K+ miners
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Not so great if you're this guy
02:42
Hotspot Name Able Grape Dove Hotspot b58 Address 115HfAsMBcD2E7hhNB6EXUhgCSxk49fRDDMnm3sWqV2VofTyJAR Discord Handle Nay Askin#6350 Hotspot Manufacturer Bobcat/Sensecap/Controllino Removal Reason Fo...
02:44
He posted 457 pages of proof including contracts, bills, order info and setup pictures yet he'll be on the denylist again with the next pull request
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FezzFest
He posted 457 pages of proof including contracts, bills, order info and setup pictures yet he'll be on the denylist again with the next pull request
I guess he needs to include more prooffacepalm /s (edited)
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Wow. And all he/she gets is an automated standard answer? There can't be a better example why the HIP40 approach won't work..
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02:50
I mean if the documented setup is true that would be a huge loss for the network
02:50
And it would scare away investors and thus create massive long term damage
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Testa
Wow. And all he/she gets is an automated standard answer? There can't be a better example why the HIP40 approach won't work..
So just no denylist whatsoever then? The choices are pretty simple; HIP40 or propose something else. As it currently stands the Helium list will be removed whether HIP40 passes or not.
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That's not really the issue with this guy
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I'm not sure the HIP-40 approach won't work
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he put actual effort in it to document proof. It seems no one has read his issue at all(..or he is a gamer of course because he complained)
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groot
So just no denylist whatsoever then? The choices are pretty simple; HIP40 or propose something else. As it currently stands the Helium list will be removed whether HIP40 passes or not.
A bad option (it is not a solution) is not bettet than no solution. Yes, there is work to be done to find a solution.
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But it seems pretty clear the current (Helium Inc managed) denylist is suboptimal at best
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Sloth
he put actual effort in it to document proof. It seems no one has read his issue at all(..or he is a gamer of course because he complained)
Yes. Because a central paid team cant keep up with the effort. How can many decentralised teams do that with no funding?
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Testa
A bad option (it is not a solution) is not bettet than no solution. Yes, there is work to be done to find a solution.
People keep saying this, yet nobody is doing the work. I'm willing to counter your argument with 'perfection should not get in the way of progress'
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groot
People keep saying this, yet nobody is doing the work. I'm willing to counter your argument with 'perfection should not get in the way of progress'
That is obvious but I did not say the contrary. If the proposed solution creates more harm than solving the issue it is not a solution and should not be an option
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Testa
Yes. Because a central paid team cant keep up with the effort. How can many decentralised teams do that with no funding?
That team is not paid, the Helium team members in the team are paid but def not to babysit the denylist.
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groot
That team is not paid, the Helium team members in the team are paid but def not to babysit the denylist.
That is a contradiction.
facepalm 1
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Testa
That is obvious but I did not say the contrary. If the proposed solution creates more harm than solving the issue it is not a solution and should not be an option
Provide some good documentation that it does more harm than good, so far all I've seen is anecdotal evidence.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/10/2022 2:55 AM
Has anyone actually seen or know community members who are going to make/maintain a list for the validators to use?
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groot
Provide some good documentation that it does more harm than good, so far all I've seen is anecdotal evidence.
The example above. The many people here claiming their HS is innocent.
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Testa
That is a contradiction.
It's not, there are community members in your so called team, they are not paid. The Helium guys are not paid to do denylist stuff, they are paid to make the network beter.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Has anyone actually seen or know community members who are going to make/maintain a list for the validators to use?
No that is all wishfull thinking. No rules or minimal standards either
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Testa
The example above. The many people here claiming their HS is innocent.
Many being defined as what, 100 out of 42000?
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Has anyone actually seen or know community members who are going to make/maintain a list for the validators to use?
I'm sure there will be plenty of volunteers
02:56
Whether that's a good or a bad thing is yet to be defined
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Well.. if you're not reading the issues people generate on github, then why allow submission of it? How many issues would be left if they filtered for issues with half decent proof and only check those?
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groot
It's not, there are community members in your so called team, they are not paid. The Helium guys are not paid to do denylist stuff, they are paid to make the network beter.
Which includes protecting the network against gamers. But even if your point was true it would not be valid. It is not working now why should it start working magically with hip40?
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FezzFest
Whether that's a good or a bad thing is yet to be defined
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/10/2022 2:57 AM
To be fair, if the person/s that will make/create/maintain it arent good friends with validators i do not see them using/checking it, it will cost them alot of time to verify and they arent rewarded for there time in a easy to see way
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If more volunteers equals an improvement in the speed and quality of the review of issues, then it's a good thing (edited)
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groot
Many being defined as what, 100 out of 42000?
Enough to harm the network. See the example above. In order to attract investors you need stability.
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Testa
Enough to harm the network. See the example above. In order to attract investors you need stability.
Propose something better, I suspect many will be interested in helping you.
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groot
Many being defined as what, 100 out of 42000?
Have a look at the example please. There is no point in discussion if it is not based on facts. The example above alone contains more than the 100 HS you claim
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groot
Propose something better, I suspect many will be interested in helping you.
That behavior is not helpful. If there is no solution yet is has to be found. And it is obviously more complex than writing a hip. (edited)
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Testa
That behavior is not helpful. If there is no solution yet is has to be found. And it is obviously more complex than writing a hip. (edited)
Neither is complaining for days on end without doing anything to benefit the situation. If you think you have a better solution, HIP it. If you think you have some novel way to filter the false positives, describe/code it. If you have a way to find all the cheaters with conclusive proof, describe/code it. It is, in my opinion, unfair to expect others to move mountains because you are unhappy with the status quo.
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groot
Neither is complaining for days on end without doing anything to benefit the situation. If you think you have a better solution, HIP it. If you think you have some novel way to filter the false positives, describe/code it. If you have a way to find all the cheaters with conclusive proof, describe/code it. It is, in my opinion, unfair to expect others to move mountains because you are unhappy with the status quo.
This channel is to discuss HIP40. This includes opinions you do not like
03:14
You cant expect me to fix something for free eithers while others make millions a month.
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03:16
This channel is specifically for HIP40. Not for finding other solutions. And i made proposals how to enhance hip40.
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Testa
This channel is specifically for HIP40. Not for finding other solutions. And i made proposals how to enhance hip40.
I searched for your contribution but I can't find it, can you describe your proposed enhancement of HIP40 again?
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groot
I searched for your contribution but I can't find it, can you describe your proposed enhancement of HIP40 again?
what's the point ? they have been discussed and will not be part of HIP40..
07:41
If I had more time I would write my own HIPs (multiple, nobody has a "silver bullet" against gamers yet, therefore multiple measures need to be taken) - but then again, I don't have much stake in the network and don't really see why I should do free work while the "investors" make millions
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https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112JZFtsfXSzbnwa1CVY94BwC8vTbBEqVCPE44WGYksycxvPyi92 should probably be added back to the denylist ASAP, it was removed in the most recent release
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19:55
(I know that's not strictly a HIP 40 issue, but it's certainly related)
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I see that it and many other extreme cheaters are added back in the pending denylist (https://github.com/helium/denylist/raw/f25baf2382a3fd28570d2af00dfd6973567bb951/denylist.csv) that has unfortunately been put on hold, because of a vocal minority it seems - hopefully this PR gets merged quickly! https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2257
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Digerati
I see that it and many other extreme cheaters are added back in the pending denylist (https://github.com/helium/denylist/raw/f25baf2382a3fd28570d2af00dfd6973567bb951/denylist.csv) that has unfortunately been put on hold, because of a vocal minority it seems - hopefully this PR gets merged quickly! https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2257
Dude if you are included into the list but you are legit…what do you do? This is unfair…i think they have to be 100% sure if one hs is cheating…like you i invested my money, time and believe in the project…so why I have to be penalized? I am one of the minority who asked on github to admins to take their time to review the new additions (fortunately they listened us)…check all the messages…it isn’t kind thinking only about yourself…you have to keep in mind that there are other people like you who put their energy into this project…cheers ☺🤙 (edited)
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Hi why don’t you ban all cheaters
01:13
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
01:13
Or is it allowed ?
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XchemicaL
Hi why don’t you ban all cheaters
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:18 AM
Because they are human and even a machine won't be able to tag all cheaters. If we had the capability, we wouldn't worry about cheaters anymore 😉
01:18
You can report that hotspot here: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Because they are human and even a machine won't be able to tag all cheaters. If we had the capability, we wouldn't worry about cheaters anymore 😉
I know but then they need to have some more ppl who can help them
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XchemicaL
I know but then they need to have some more ppl who can help them
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:19 AM
That would be you, feel free to report them here: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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And some cheaters are easy to notice
01:26
Question, who gets or what happens when a miner is cheating when he wil be band with the hnt it earned?
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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It looks like helium allows cheaters lot of banned devices are mining again.
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Honestly.....this project is getting 🤦‍♂️ . - Network is struggling, one week without profits at all - Honest HS owners...are screwed. - Chinese gammers keep gaming, and they are getting better rewards than EU or US - Gammers are getting better profit than ever... - Denylist????Where is it???? WTF is going on?
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 03/11/2022 1:38 AM
we have a test setup in the Benelux, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. but to do this globally we need funding 😉 it's a complex system
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/11/2022 1:39 AM
Almost voting time for this hip? Maybe they (helium inc) just did this to get sure this hip gets voted yes😂
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
we have a test setup in the Benelux, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. but to do this globally we need funding 😉 it's a complex system
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/11/2022 1:41 AM
You could always ask for a grant
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NL_Miniterror_NL
You could always ask for a grant
davidzc "the Gentleman" 03/11/2022 1:41 AM
been there done that.. no reaction
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davidzc "the Gentleman"
been there done that.. no reaction
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/11/2022 1:42 AM
Ahhh, so they handle it like they handle the git issues😂
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01:42
Nit surprising at all to be fair
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GФMΞS
Honestly.....this project is getting 🤦‍♂️ . - Network is struggling, one week without profits at all - Honest HS owners...are screwed. - Chinese gammers keep gaming, and they are getting better rewards than EU or US - Gammers are getting better profit than ever... - Denylist????Where is it???? WTF is going on?
Just join the cheaters if we al cheat then we earn all 🤙
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It's weird about these last gammers profits, all them started yesterday at 22:00 UTC....
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XchemicaL
Just join the cheaters if we al cheat then we earn all 🤙
Honesttly......if anyone know how to do it, I'm in
01:45
being honest.....is getting ridiculous
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GФMΞS
Honesttly......if anyone know how to do it, I'm in
Let’s publish how it works on YouTube step by step
01:46
I’ll gone do my research it could not be hard to do i think
01:46
Yes
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 03/11/2022 1:46 AM
sorry we are an ethical group .... red team doesn't work like that (edited)
01:50
"The peoples network" All people are equal.. some (cheaters) are more equal
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XchemicaL
Let’s publish how it works on YouTube step by step
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:50 AM
Just a reminder, that pomotion of spoofing is a banable offense (edited)
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Yes we just tho the easiest one it you see the miner there is no hisitation about the device is cheating
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XchemicaL
It looks like helium allows cheaters lot of banned devices are mining again.
Explains why all my honest miners saw their rewards /2
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zzeddd
Explains why all my honest miners saw their rewards /2
Yes that’s why all the miners are earning shitty
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Damnit. I've invested plenty in miners and feel like we keep getting screwed. Considering to take them offline if this continues
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And the team is investing it and monitoring it. They are keeping something they don’t really want to tel us. Earnings same but splitting not the same (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:53 AM
He could write a HIP for starters
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 03/11/2022 1:53 AM
yes, the witness stuffing is killing for normal "legit" miner setups
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:53 AM
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:54 AM
The hip is for explaining his solution
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For a startup, the processing speed of HIP's is not great either. This one is in debate for months. When can it move forward to vote and implementation?
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01:54
Appreciating the efforts of @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io , but maybe the Helium foundation can support him with resources (edited)
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zzeddd
For a startup, the processing speed of HIP's is not great either. This one is in debate for months. When can it move forward to vote and implementation?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:54 AM
Depends on @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io when he feels ready (edited)
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davidzc "the Gentleman" has been timed out for 2m mute spacearrowRight Reason: Posting Discord Server Invites
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:56 AM
I don't have much trust when he isn't even asking me directly... (edited)
01:57
@davidzc "the Gentleman" If you have such solution, feel free to write the HIP, here is a guide https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0007-managing-hip-process.md
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
01:57
If you need Help with it, feel free to ask 👍
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davidzc "the Gentleman" 03/11/2022 1:58 AM
hi, @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 ich rede auch deutsch kein problem
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:58 AM
I usually don't open PNs, so feelf ree to explain it here or better in #hip-discussion since we are getting off-topic from #hip-40-validator-denylist
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
@davidzc "the Gentleman" If you have such solution, feel free to write the HIP, here is a guide https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0007-managing-hip-process.md
And then get arguments thrown at you for months, before it can even be brought to a vote. Then you need to do the development work yourself and maybe the hip finally comes to live. Very inviting!
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/11/2022 1:59 AM
@davidzc "the Gentleman" have you actually spoken with one of the devs like capcom about your setup?
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zzeddd
And then get arguments thrown at you for months, before it can even be brought to a vote. Then you need to do the development work yourself and maybe the hip finally comes to live. Very inviting!
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:59 AM
If you have a solution and no idea how to implement it, your solution is worthless...
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:59 AM
alright we can move to #hip-discussion
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 1:59 AM
Oh nice, i guess then we don't have to discuss anymore (edited)
02:00
Can't wait for the system to work 👍
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 2:03 AM
Well you could stop attack me for a moment and we can talk in #hip-discussion , sound good?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
If you have a solution and no idea how to implement it, your solution is worthless...
Nah you can then also say ok here are dev resources, work out the idea together
02:12
A $1,2B company relying on volunteers to improve its core business (the Helium network) and fight cheaters. Makes sense! https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/02/18/crypto-powered-wireless-network-helium-raises-200m-at-12b-valuation-report/ (edited)
Tiger Global and FTX Ventures were among the new investors in the company, Axios reported.
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There's plenty of money
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zzeddd
Nah you can then also say ok here are dev resources, work out the idea together
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/11/2022 2:14 AM
PRs are welcome 😉
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zzeddd
Appreciating the efforts of @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io , but maybe the Helium foundation can support him with resources (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/11/2022 2:15 AM
they are, theres been some concerns raised, check the working group video, we were going over structure of how it would work and how best to handle things
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Thanks for the uodate and info @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io ! Can you indicate a timeline for the future?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/11/2022 2:18 AM
next call is the 31st
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/11/2022 2:56 AM
its a closed working group call thats recorded
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Hi, plaese check this hotspot, this is not normal
03:28
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
03:33
and this one
03:33
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
03:33
same guy
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Ridiculous. @capcom how is such extreme cheating in a short time frame possible? Would it be fixed with this hip @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io or is there still an x hour timeframe to cheat, before getting caught?
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zzeddd
Ridiculous. @capcom how is such extreme cheating in a short time frame possible? Would it be fixed with this hip @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io or is there still an x hour timeframe to cheat, before getting caught?
OptimusPrime 03/11/2022 5:32 AM
The cheater is changing rssi and snr now. Making it more real 😂 (edited)
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zzeddd
Ridiculous. @capcom how is such extreme cheating in a short time frame possible? Would it be fixed with this hip @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io or is there still an x hour timeframe to cheat, before getting caught?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 03/11/2022 5:43 AM
The current list pulls every 6 hours so it could be updated quickly
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hello,my friends,would you like to check this guys too?
05:57
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
05:58
not insane as the guys above,it's still suspicious
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zzeddd
A $1,2B company relying on volunteers to improve its core business (the Helium network) and fight cheaters. Makes sense! https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/02/18/crypto-powered-wireless-network-helium-raises-200m-at-12b-valuation-report/ (edited)
so true. Helium is (still?) heavily centralised (also from a stake perspective), but the key problems should be solved by the community. HIP40 is best case a stopgap measure, it is not a long term solution. But nobody is working on a long term solution.. there is not even a plan.
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I do see the merit of responsible disclosure of spoofing methods, along the lines of https://about.google/appsecurity/ - basically, report privately to the developers, and if it's not patched within 90 days, it's released to the public
Learn more about Google's App Security
12:32
That's how Google's security team handles vulnerabilities they identify, sounds reasonable to me - obviously, bad actors are aware of and are actively exploiting spoofing methods, and if it takes a hard deadline of 90 days to patch it for good, knowing it'll be publicly released at that point, maybe that'd be for the best?
12:34
A case could be made for a 7 day disclosure timeframe, considering it is being actively exploited: "When we observe a previously unknown and unpatched vulnerability in software under active exploitation (a “0day”), we believe that more urgent action—within 7 days—is appropriate."
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Digerati
I do see the merit of responsible disclosure of spoofing methods, along the lines of https://about.google/appsecurity/ - basically, report privately to the developers, and if it's not patched within 90 days, it's released to the public
it is not a vulnerability though - at least not in the sense of the linked article
13:10
and the issues are known
13:10
so no need to report them
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Then from that standpoint, the clock should have already started ticking
13:11
Before public disclosure
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Digerati
Before public disclosure
no. the article does not apply, it covers software vulnerabilities
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I've been seeing more and more posts on Reddit today about this, saying things like "does anyone know how to do this? if they won't stop them, i at least want to profit before the network collapses", things like that
13:12
This is a software vulnerability
13:12
The firmware specifically is being modified
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Digerati
The firmware specifically is being modified
that is not the issue
facepalm 1
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That's at least one of the mechanisms of spoofing
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and wrong channel here ;). maybe #poc-discussion ?
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True, this probably isn't the best channel for this
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/11/2022 2:41 PM
Any idea why the PR from bilal is closed but not implemented?
14:41
Such a mess, seems like all those obvious gamers going to get a free pass this weekend
14:46
Quote 'As a reminder, any hotspot that has been removed in this change can quickly be re-added to the denylist and we plan on doing more frequent updates.' But its been not so quick to get the pretty obvious ones back on it. Really wonder the motive behind the idea to almost completely clean the list and now let them go on in the weekend👎
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this link is very useful.
17:45
found that the hot spot in the first place ,don't know what antenna to use.
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For whatever reason those gamers stopped at 10 AM UTC yesterday and it seems they have been added now.
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<0.1847.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{109,29} FORMAT ERROR: "new denylist version appeared: ~s have ~s" [2022031101,0] My hotspot gives an error loading the new denylist?
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Checked my logs... same issue 2022-03-12 07:56:59.945 135 [info] <0.2247.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{109,29} FORMAT ERROR: "new denylist version appeared: ~s have ~s" [2022031101,2022030901]
01:19
I think it's just a logging issue. The "FORMAT ERROR" referring to the string format of the log request.
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01:19
Same error appeared with previous denylist version
01:19
2022-03-09 21:15:05.829 145 [info] <0.1972.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{109,29} FORMAT ERROR: "new denylist version appeared: ~s have ~s" [2022030901,2022022201]
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2022-03-12 12:41:40.472 156 [info] <0.3720.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{103,29} already have version 2022031101 It seems successfully loaded despite format error
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impuls
For whatever reason those gamers stopped at 10 AM UTC yesterday and it seems they have been added now.
OptimusPrime 03/12/2022 1:34 PM
That’s great news ✌️
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Hi I have a query regarding denylist. My hotspot was put into denylist and then I presented the proofs to get it out on github. It was out of the list later. after a week I see it’s again on the deny list. What can i do here? Is someone faced the similar issue. help
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Testa
so true. Helium is (still?) heavily centralised (also from a stake perspective), but the key problems should be solved by the community. HIP40 is best case a stopgap measure, it is not a long term solution. But nobody is working on a long term solution.. there is not even a plan.
Good point about the centralisation. I do think there is a plan, but it all takes quite the time..
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Testa
so true. Helium is (still?) heavily centralised (also from a stake perspective), but the key problems should be solved by the community. HIP40 is best case a stopgap measure, it is not a long term solution. But nobody is working on a long term solution.. there is not even a plan.
How are the stakes centralized?
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140/20 cheating is going on for more than a month. This could be detected and blocked automatically. What is stopping us from doing this?
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A working ETL ?
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molano
A working ETL ?
Even if it's a few days behind... the 140/20 scheme can be detected quite well even without the challenge_receipts_parsed. Can share the query if interested.
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If you have, get the list, make an issue (or a PR or get somebody to make you a PR) (Think you just made an issue?)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/13/2022 2:18 PM
If the issue is good enough then i could create the PR if needed @impuls
14:18
Not sure though as the issue only contains the miner addresses and no proof.
14:20
And got to wait till current PR is done, dont wont to mix to many things in one PR
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molano
If you have, get the list, make an issue (or a PR or get somebody to make you a PR) (Think you just made an issue?)
Hotspot b58 Addresses 112JZFtsfXSzbnwa1CVY94BwC8vTbBEqVCPE44WGYksycxvPyi92 112AoXneevrFZNgdWYm69c5LxTeuGaUVCHW6qgJGrB6sug31VNWT 112Jo24sJjLbgZzRxZgqtDRz6UJg6WZrZbYrocTpLjA4qKehCMi5 1122CwC9eR1z8wX3...
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/13/2022 2:21 PM
Can you post how you got the list? (edited)
14:22
I think that would be enough proof @molano ?
14:22
Or does it need screenshots of every miner?
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I try to check at least some of the additions. With small lists like we work now, it's doable to do some valid checks without checking them all.
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Guess the query will not help cheaters more than knowing that using same RSSI / SNR values every time will get the captured. (edited)
14:27
Will add it to the issue.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/13/2022 2:28 PM
Not sure whats needed for the signers as proof, but just adding a bunch of miners without evidence will probably be rejected
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The query results are included indicating that the miners had ONLY 140/20 witnesses.
14:30
Guess enabling signers to run and verify the query is better.
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impuls
The query results are included indicating that the miners had ONLY 140/20 witnesses.
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/13/2022 11:26 PM
Any reason the query was only done for 6 to 8 march, or am i reading the query wrong?
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/13/2022 11:41 PM
Jusy did a quick check, your issue would 'only' add 8 new ones to the list
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I really don’t understand why the successful denylist was removed again. Although indeed several innocent hotspot owners were impacted, it did benefit hundreds of thousands of other honest hotspot owners
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23:48
And of course the cheaters who are earning boatloads of HNT are very vocally complaining that the list is not set up properly and should be removed
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/13/2022 11:48 PM
Interetingly they all had il1 good the last 7 days, all had the same good day
23:49
Could it be they were victims from a gamer rebroadcasting?
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hey, just created an issue https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2369 And seems like someone is challenging the devs also, can check it in the comments
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Any reason the query was only done for 6 to 8 march, or am i reading the query wrong?
You are reading it right. Multiple reasons... ETL data is outdated and ends at 08.03. Analysing a longer time frame will take too long an timeout. Running it for different date found same or even fewer hotspots.
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Just in case you don't know: Cheating is not something that can be just "fixed". The miner is running software, the software can be manipulated. The symptoms of running the manipulated software can be detected and if the proof is solid enough cheaters will be added to the denylist. This process is not very smooth right now, but I assume it will get better.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/14/2022 5:11 AM
Should be yes
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Hi everyone, does denylist currently block reward? There is a unit 112p8e1kka9WTZM6LHk617UWKeg3DyPiBu11Hrs1iez6Fm1f4ip2 which is on denylist but seems to have earnings. Or am I missing something?...
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/15/2022 9:35 AM
Not all vendors have the denylist implemented in there firmware, so some earnings go through for then but should be minimal With hip40 (if it passes) this is going to be arranged at the validator level so should not be possible anymore then
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Thx a lot for the clarification
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Not all vendors have the denylist implemented in there firmware, so some earnings go through for then but should be minimal With hip40 (if it passes) this is going to be arranged at the validator level so should not be possible anymore then
When is it up for another vote? And implementation?
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Hummertime
When is it up for another vote? And implementation?
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/15/2022 11:45 AM
I dont know when hip40 vote is
11:45
I assume bfgneil could tell you more about that
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Not all vendors have the denylist implemented in there firmware, so some earnings go through for then but should be minimal With hip40 (if it passes) this is going to be arranged at the validator level so should not be possible anymore then
Yeah it sucks that they're so soft on vendors these days. Last year they were considering to refuse Cot-X on the network. They turned out to be a main cheating hotspot anyway 😁 (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/15/2022 3:10 PM
@hashc0de sorry to do it in this channel but afaik there is no other channel for the current denylist. I have a open PR to add some miner, PR2366, one signer has signed it and further nothing, i do not understand why its been total silent for over 48 hours in that PR now. On top a new PR2432 is opened by someone else and that is now signed by 2 signers, any whats going on here and my PR seems to be ignored?
15:11
If one of the 2 goes through this will mess up the PR of the other person, doesnt seem like a ideal situation
15:12
Both the PR's seem to be legit, i know mine is and one signer has looked at it and agrees with me, hence he signed it
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NL_Miniterror_NL
@hashc0de sorry to do it in this channel but afaik there is no other channel for the current denylist. I have a open PR to add some miner, PR2366, one signer has signed it and further nothing, i do not understand why its been total silent for over 48 hours in that PR now. On top a new PR2432 is opened by someone else and that is now signed by 2 signers, any whats going on here and my PR seems to be ignored?
still waiting on another signer to do it. unfortunately can't force everyone. could you rebase it again?
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hashc0de
still waiting on another signer to do it. unfortunately can't force everyone. could you rebase it again?
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/15/2022 4:27 PM
I dont get it, why would they ignore mine and like almost instantly do the newer one
16:27
Did i do something wrong on the PR?
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1 cheater between account boxes divided into several accounts 6 - 9 per account only 1 runs, so they suck the coins away from us https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13D3Yn6aENuQjKGY3t7QTrgBEhiEFEoLgXtuwqxgG8BjThTXrXR
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Nikomid
1 cheater between account boxes divided into several accounts 6 - 9 per account only 1 runs, so they suck the coins away from us https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13D3Yn6aENuQjKGY3t7QTrgBEhiEFEoLgXtuwqxgG8BjThTXrXR
LaRisposta4 03/16/2022 4:18 AM
GitHub is where people build software. More than 73 million people use GitHub to discover, fork, and contribute to over 200 million projects.
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Kay - Cosmos IoT 03/16/2022 10:23 AM
https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11F1oneKy6n1yLBVGJtMrJPjZ88y9t2YvjVDsEcPRJ3wHog3Nda Syncrobit not accepting the denylist. This manufacter caused so much trouble to the network
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Kay - Cosmos IoT 03/16/2022 10:35 AM
@hashc0de Please fix this, syncrobit cheaters are taking all rewards in the netherlands right now
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i can't personally force a manufacturer to do anything.
10:36
nor can the core team. they are approved by the community and the HIP 19 process.
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Kay - Cosmos IoT 03/16/2022 10:52 AM
Okay thank you for the response, but can you reach out to the team to implement hip-40?
10:52
The team of syncrobit
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If a Syncrobit witnesses while on the denylist it isn't necessarily a Syncrobit that is not implementing the denylist. Also, the two linked above were added only a few hours ago and it may not have propagated to all hotspots yet. (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL
@hashc0de sorry to do it in this channel but afaik there is no other channel for the current denylist. I have a open PR to add some miner, PR2366, one signer has signed it and further nothing, i do not understand why its been total silent for over 48 hours in that PR now. On top a new PR2432 is opened by someone else and that is now signed by 2 signers, any whats going on here and my PR seems to be ignored?
There really should be a separate "current denylist" channel IMO.
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krby
There really should be a separate "current denylist" channel IMO.
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/16/2022 12:36 PM
It would help indeed, but a new channel needs to be maintained too, if theres not enough resources for that it might be useless. Can imagine if there actually is a channel for the current implementation it might be a reall messy one with all the questions regarding issues
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Just push forward on HIP40, two birds with one stone.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/16/2022 12:41 PM
Or not, worst case scenario if the implementation/documentation isnt good because its rushed to much it might get 'no' voted and we end up without any sort of denylist (edited)
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hashc0de
nor can the core team. they are approved by the community and the HIP 19 process.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/16/2022 1:05 PM
Last I checked, the community does not approve manufactures.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Last I checked, the community does not approve manufactures.
you're right. the community approved the HIP 19 process...
13:46
but there are some community approved manufacturers pre hip 19
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13:46
good nitpick though!
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hashc0de
good nitpick though!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/16/2022 1:48 PM
🙂 Wasn't trying to nitpick per se, just was thinking about the Nebra Rockpi being approved despite the outcry from the community. 🙂
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still don't know what that has to do with anything here.
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hashc0de
still don't know what that has to do with anything here.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/16/2022 1:50 PM
It was in response to your comment. 🤷‍♂️
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Regardless of the semantics, if a manufacturer is being complicit in allowing gaming to continue and therefore defrauding Helium and the community, surely there are repercussions that can be applied?
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13:51
If nothing is done it's only going to encourage more to do the same
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Jules22
If nothing is done it's only going to encourage more to do the same
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/16/2022 1:52 PM
All the more reason to pass this HIP and take it out of their hands. 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It was in response to your comment. 🤷‍♂️
indeed. i or the core team cannot ask a manufacturer to implement the denylist. but, back to the topic in the channel. HIP 40 is a way for validators to decide on whether or not to censor witness receipts from getting rewarded and if enough of them do while validating transactions in the consensus group, they will not be rewarded. (edited for clarity) (edited)
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Ok, thanks that makes sense
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We have a pretty reasonable approximation on how to implement it as well. and feel good about being able to do so quickly after the HIP is approved. There are lots of questions and process that's being argued about here and elsewhere but v1 should be simple in our opinion. This is a rough but: 1. validators have a local "suspicious" list (csv or something like that that they can form themselves or get from other sources). 2. we have code in the miner repo that loads that list in an efficient way so they can make quick decisions as receipt transactions come in. 3. validators can "vote" on an individual witness receipt within a receipts transaction. this is added to block metadata so it's very public. 4. if enough "votes" are recorded, an individual receipt is not "paid" at rewards time. 5. we would figure out how to visualize all this in explorer or at least give context via the API.
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14:02
I don't think the core team should be prescriptive on how the list is formed, where it comes from, how it's combined, what's the "decay" or TTL on it, is the validator operator going to be lazy, etc. that's really not our place.
14:03
We will continue to publish a denylist, though, and continue doing research in the area. Whether or not validator operators take it will be their decision (like it is for hotspot manufacturers today)
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hashc0de
I don't think the core team should be prescriptive on how the list is formed, where it comes from, how it's combined, what's the "decay" or TTL on it, is the validator operator going to be lazy, etc. that's really not our place.
Also maybe worth adding that it's of course important to not have "lazy" validator operators. I don't think a majority are, in fact. I think tying up the process on the "what ifs" is not worth it.
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hashc0de
Also maybe worth adding that it's of course important to not have "lazy" validator operators. I don't think a majority are, in fact. I think tying up the process on the "what ifs" is not worth it.
Going on the average response time at the last few halt or halt-like events I'm pretty sure most are pretty devoted.
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they're a dedicated bunch.
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With regards to 5; I think it would be useful to include some thoughts on showing which of the lists a hotspot is on. (assuming the combined list is used in miner software) (edited)
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maybe. but the validator's votes are the most indicative.
14:21
the nice thing about this model is that how you combine multiple lists is sort of on the validator operator.
14:22
i can use the groot+hashc0de+jerm list on my validators and someone else can use the groot+hashc0de+pete list because they think that's the better combo
14:22
it doesn't matter until the validator is in consensus and when it is, their actions are all recorded publicly.
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I like the transparency of the public part, as well as the fact that denying them at reward time will mean that they still make it to chain and therefore more analysis is possible for potential unlisting.
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correct. it's by far better than what we have today.
14:25
so we should move to it quickly.
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14:25
wen vote?
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wen impl?
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Kay - Cosmos IoT
Wen fix?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/16/2022 2:45 PM
Another syncrobit farm. 😦
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Kay - Cosmos IoT
Wen fix?
6 hours ago.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Another syncrobit farm. 😦
Kay - Cosmos IoT 03/16/2022 2:53 PM
Yes, they are taking like 70% of all the rewards in the Netherlands right now while they are on the denylist???
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Hello, I'm sorry to post here, but I don't know where I should post about the current deny-list. I spent many hours identifying self-witnessing clusters of Deeper hotspots here in France. I checked one-by-one all location assertions in France from the Deeper manufacturer account in the last 7 days, and I couldn't find any legit hotspot. They are all part of self witnessing clusters. I double-checked each cluster one by one, and I could'nt spot any witnessing event with any legit hotspot around. I filled many addition requests to the deny-list, and I would like to know what I can do next. I would like to open a pull-request, but I don't know if I'm allowed to. Please advise. Bourges https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2300 Caen https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2469 Poitiers https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2466 Toulon https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2458 Rognac https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2457 Limoges https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2456 Clairac https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2454 Saint-Martin-la-Plaine https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2452 Dijon https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2449 Fondettes https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2448 Bordeaux (not from me) https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2393
hashc0de pinned a message to this channel. 03/17/2022 9:33 AM
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stipus
Hello, I'm sorry to post here, but I don't know where I should post about the current deny-list. I spent many hours identifying self-witnessing clusters of Deeper hotspots here in France. I checked one-by-one all location assertions in France from the Deeper manufacturer account in the last 7 days, and I couldn't find any legit hotspot. They are all part of self witnessing clusters. I double-checked each cluster one by one, and I could'nt spot any witnessing event with any legit hotspot around. I filled many addition requests to the deny-list, and I would like to know what I can do next. I would like to open a pull-request, but I don't know if I'm allowed to. Please advise. Bourges https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2300 Caen https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2469 Poitiers https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2466 Toulon https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2458 Rognac https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2457 Limoges https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2456 Clairac https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2454 Saint-Martin-la-Plaine https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2452 Dijon https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2449 Fondettes https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2448 Bordeaux (not from me) https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2393
Appreciate you being cautious about this being the right channel or not. I think you're in the right place!
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hashc0de
We will continue to publish a denylist, though, and continue doing research in the area. Whether or not validator operators take it will be their decision (like it is for hotspot manufacturers today)
Appreciate that Helium or DeWi will continue to maintain a list. I'd believe that either group has the deep expertise to research and maintain list.
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krby
Appreciate you being cautious about this being the right channel or not. I think you're in the right place!
Thank you for your answer. What can I do to help with the deny-list ? Do you known if anyone can submit a deny-list pull-request, or if one needs to be allowed, and by who ? Who can I talk to about updating the current deny-list ? (edited)
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stipus
Thank you for your answer. What can I do to help with the deny-list ? Do you known if anyone can submit a deny-list pull-request, or if one needs to be allowed, and by who ? Who can I talk to about updating the current deny-list ? (edited)
anyone can submit a PR issue to the github that has been referenced several times in this channel. (edited)
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As long as you have documented it well, there is a chance it'll pass. I still advice to create issues and not PR's.
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molano
As long as you have documented it well, there is a chance it'll pass. I still advice to create issues and not PR's.
oops, I meant issue. I corrected it above.
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I have created several documented issues, but no-one seems to add them to a PR. Maybe I'm too impatient... (edited)
15:53
That's why I'm asking if I need authorisation, and by who, to create a pull request from those issues. (edited)
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stipus
I have created several documented issues, but no-one seems to add them to a PR. Maybe I'm too impatient... (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/17/2022 4:04 PM
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We blocked a lot of Deepers with the latest addition from a couple of hours ago. Please check if these are not redundant and are now just blocked (well the new list is not live yet, but it's signed already.) (edited)
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16:43
@stipus
16:44
Well, it's live
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molano
We blocked a lot of Deepers with the latest addition from a couple of hours ago. Please check if these are not redundant and are now just blocked (well the new list is not live yet, but it's signed already.) (edited)
Thank you very much... I closed many of my open issues, but there are a few remaining.
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In response to hashc0de's message above, I'm happy to accept some outside help on getting the HIP into shape if someone with some good writing chops would like to refactor the current draft with those notes in mind. Co-author status awaits you 😄 hashc0de nodes: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/953759795087827064 distributed denylist draft: https://www.notion.so/Distributed-Denylist-Framework-Spec-446e72aca4194b5b8aee9c9c2d29f5e2
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molano
We blocked a lot of Deepers with the latest addition from a couple of hours ago. Please check if these are not redundant and are now just blocked (well the new list is not live yet, but it's signed already.) (edited)
Epic work dude
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@stipus It appears as if many (?most) deeper miners are involved in a massive gaming operation. If you filter to Deeper in hotspotty you see the vast majority of deeper hotspots are deployed in a similar and unusual way. This is: - in small clusters of usually >4 with some short distance apart. I.e. very rarely in single deployments - in towns & cities, but not always the main population centres Illustration of Northern Europe here https://iz23qz.axshare.com/home.html All of these clusters I briefly checked in Europe: - Only witness within their own cluster i.e. other nearby deeper miners - Have transmit scale 1 - Recently deployed - last 10 days Many are on the denylist (marked in explorer) e.g. in Germany, but many e.g. in Spain & Italy are not. However, those on the denylist appear to be beaconing, witnessing, & challenging. Does this mean they are still earning or is it an artifact of the explorer UI? I.e. is the denylist having any effect in this case? (I'm afraid I'm new to how the denylist works) According to hotspotty there are over 8,000 deeper miners, 98% online. Those I checked, earn roughly 0.2 to 0.4 HNT a day. If all 8,000 were involved and earning like this, this would be 1,600-3,200 HNT a day. (edited)
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KXI
@stipus It appears as if many (?most) deeper miners are involved in a massive gaming operation. If you filter to Deeper in hotspotty you see the vast majority of deeper hotspots are deployed in a similar and unusual way. This is: - in small clusters of usually >4 with some short distance apart. I.e. very rarely in single deployments - in towns & cities, but not always the main population centres Illustration of Northern Europe here https://iz23qz.axshare.com/home.html All of these clusters I briefly checked in Europe: - Only witness within their own cluster i.e. other nearby deeper miners - Have transmit scale 1 - Recently deployed - last 10 days Many are on the denylist (marked in explorer) e.g. in Germany, but many e.g. in Spain & Italy are not. However, those on the denylist appear to be beaconing, witnessing, & challenging. Does this mean they are still earning or is it an artifact of the explorer UI? I.e. is the denylist having any effect in this case? (I'm afraid I'm new to how the denylist works) According to hotspotty there are over 8,000 deeper miners, 98% online. Those I checked, earn roughly 0.2 to 0.4 HNT a day. If all 8,000 were involved and earning like this, this would be 1,600-3,200 HNT a day. (edited)
Thank you for this information. A few days ago, I listed and double checked all french location assertions on the Deeper Manufacturer account for the last week, and I couldn't find any legit hotspot. They were all part of self-witnessing clusters, and I wrote many issues on github to add those cheating hotspots to the deny-list. I spent hours on this, carrefully checking all clusters, creating an issue for each cluster with detailed info, and that's why I would like to see my work included in a deny-list pull request. (edited)
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For exemple, here is one of the remaining pull-requests, with screen-shots, photos... https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2300 (edited)
Hotspot b58 Addresses 112K5u3GNmAJ4DpUxnUX5jAXstiEKGGb8qDrwVMvrcUNtocWZkfL 112KVNYrPe1ywu2rBKenzMpSsSfBh5pkFo6bH6eGHWdL8KucMLnN 1127362J4NBUWsGYJuiyqgQFGFWs4bSyXmUZh7zzNieKsgAkbKDr 119Ku86DyK9MdV7U...
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@molano Given the Deeper issue appears to be systematic abuse, is Helium planning a systematic response? Or should the community continue to manually identify and flag each instance of suspected abuse? I (naively) assume it would be simple to automatically check across all hotspots whether a given Deeper miner has only ever witnessed other Deeper miners? This does not appear to have been done so far since there are many not on the deny list - I checked spain, italy and portugal last night.
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Yesterday someone did that job and listed 523 self-witnessing hotspots in Europe that have been included in the deny-list. But there are many remaining...
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stipus
Yesterday someone did that job and listed 523 self-witnessing hotspots in Europe that have been included in the deny-list. But there are many remaining...
This is great work, but it feels like the issue has got to the stage where it is easy enough to spot and widespread enough that it should be dealt with in an automated and systematic way. For example, as far as I can tell no Spanish Deeper miners are on denylist, but all checked are the same very suspect patterns. e.g. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/1121ybrygmugdtFBnt6SZArdspodKFwypsxY3HZYRFoSEEQGuVn Surely it is not in the community or Helium's interest to wait until some diligent soul manually checks and reports each one? In addition, all those Deepers on the deny list that I checked (e.g. Germany) appear from explorer to be earning just fine - does this mean the denylist is having no effect here? Or is it an error in the way explorer displays denylist spots? (edited)
02:31
(apologies all if this isn't the correct channel for this - please let me know a better one)
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Can someone explain why he is only witnessing but not witnessed https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11T7uFAzePrZaRwbfMvN3eAonizocUpx3buyGFhVp4mCC7Cc4eJ
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I built my first denylist pull-request from a few issues. Now I need some help. What are the next steps ? Should I run the xorf-generator myself ? https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2523
closes #2300 closes #2458 closes #2457 closes #2452
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How to report obvious cluster of spots gaming? same wallet witnessing each other only, at 1.0 and impropable location to have an installation. Location potential has 100hotspots witness rate but they only see wallet spots. Recently deployed and probably in a warehouse stealing from network and burdening the hexes with fake spots (edited)
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pk4r45
How to report obvious cluster of spots gaming? same wallet witnessing each other only, at 1.0 and impropable location to have an installation. Location potential has 100hotspots witness rate but they only see wallet spots. Recently deployed and probably in a warehouse stealing from network and burdening the hexes with fake spots (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 1:13 PM
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why do the hotspots that are on the denylist continue to receive rewards?
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Will do, many thanks!
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Silverhand
why do the hotspots that are on the denylist continue to receive rewards?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 1:21 PM
Because not all hotspots sending challenges are using the denylist. HIP40 fixes that loophole.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because not all hotspots sending challenges are using the denylist. HIP40 fixes that loophole.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 1:39 PM
i think it will work very well with 55.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i think it will work very well with 55.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 1:41 PM
Not sure what you mean. 40 and 55 are not related.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not sure what you mean. 40 and 55 are not related.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:26 PM
hip40 puts the deny-list in the validator's hands, validator's also control challenges once 55 goes into effect. so the cheaters cant just root into the miner files and remove the deny list.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
hip40 puts the deny-list in the validator's hands, validator's also control challenges once 55 goes into effect. so the cheaters cant just root into the miner files and remove the deny list.
With just HIP40, validators have enough control to enforce witholding rewards from miners on the denylist. No HIP55 needed.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
hip40 puts the deny-list in the validator's hands, validator's also control challenges once 55 goes into effect. so the cheaters cant just root into the miner files and remove the deny list.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:27 PM
HIP55 has nothing to do with stopping cheaters.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/18/2022 2:28 PM
To be fair i dont see it as a holy grail
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
HIP55 has nothing to do with stopping cheaters.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:28 PM
No they both have to do with validators not poc
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
hip40 puts the deny-list in the validator's hands, validator's also control challenges once 55 goes into effect. so the cheaters cant just root into the miner files and remove the deny list.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:28 PM
Just because both involve Validators, doesn't mean they are related.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/18/2022 2:28 PM
People still need to create lists and validators need to check/implememt then
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NL_Miniterror_NL
People still need to create lists and validators need to check/implememt then
That's all HIP40
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Just because both involve Validators, doesn't mean they are related.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:29 PM
the point was that they will work well together, not that they are related
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
the point was that they will work well together, not that they are related
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:29 PM
They don't affect each other at all.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:29 PM
not sure how that was missed, and ended up in their both poc land
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:29 PM
They don't "work well together" because they don't work together at all.
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Currently the denylist is implemented at the challenger, after HIP55 the challenger will be a validator so I understand @Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) ‘s point.
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I guess in theory validators doing PoC work (HIP55) could refuse connections from denylist miners. But that change hasn't been proposed.
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groot
Currently the denylist is implemented at the challenger, after HIP55 the challenger will be a validator so I understand @Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) ‘s point.
Ahh, ya. I see.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:30 PM
yeah they cant sign the witness, cause the validators control the security
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
yeah they cant sign the witness, cause the validators control the security
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:31 PM
Cheaters don't have any control over challenges, so it's not a thing.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:31 PM
i tend to say things backwards, or from end to begining, sorry.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Cheaters don't have any control over challenges, so it's not a thing.
With HIP55 the one with the denylist(challenger role) happens to have a lot more skin in the game than currently.
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krby
That's all HIP40
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/18/2022 2:33 PM
I have a idea how it works
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:33 PM
it makes the most sense for validators to control both
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/18/2022 2:34 PM
And it certainly isnt the holy grail some would like others to believe it is
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NL_Miniterror_NL
And it certainly isnt the holy grail some would like others to believe it is
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:34 PM
there will always be cheaters, any system can be hacked
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NL_Miniterror_NL
And it certainly isnt the holy grail some would like others to believe it is
Explain its flaws.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:34 PM
but if it becomes too hard to not profitable then it usually subsides
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groot
With HIP55 the one with the denylist(challenger role) happens to have a lot more skin in the game than currently.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:35 PM
HIP55 has nothing to do with a denylist. This "connection" between challenger and the current denylist is only due to the hamfisted way it's applied right now.
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groot
Explain its flaws.
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/18/2022 2:35 PM
Come on, you know damn well it will be just as flawed as current implementation, just change the location from miners to validatoes
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Come on, you know damn well it will be just as flawed as current implementation, just change the location from miners to validatoes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:35 PM
List the flaws...
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Come on, you know damn well it will be just as flawed as current implementation, just change the location from miners to validatoes
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:36 PM
I think people will find over time, the validators are decentralized just like the hotspots/miners, and more secure
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
HIP55 has nothing to do with a denylist. This "connection" between challenger and the current denylist is only due to the hamfisted way it's applied right now.
It shifts the actor of the ‘hamfisted way it’s applied’ if you think that is ‘no connection’ then well, have it your way.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Come on, you know damn well it will be just as flawed as current implementation, just change the location from miners to validatoes
The technical implementation is nowhere near as flawed as the current design, what you (probably) refer to is governance which is notably absent from HIP40. (edited)
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groot
It shifts the actor of the ‘hamfisted way it’s applied’ if you think that is ‘no connection’ then well, have it your way.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:38 PM
Sorry, didn't get the jist of what you were saying there.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:38 PM
cost-effective deny list governance would be a wonderful hip.
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groot
It shifts the actor of the ‘hamfisted way it’s applied’ if you think that is ‘no connection’ then well, have it your way.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:41 PM
I'm saying there is no connection between anti-gaming and hip55
14:41
HIP55 is a network issue fix, not a gaming fix.
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Never said it was a gaming fix, but HIP55 happens to move the current denylist implementation from potentially untrustworthy hotspots to probably trustworthy validators due to the way it is implemented. That’s a connection, may not be an intentional one, but it still is a connection.
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groot
Never said it was a gaming fix, but HIP55 happens to move the current denylist implementation from potentially untrustworthy hotspots to probably trustworthy validators due to the way it is implemented. That’s a connection, may not be an intentional one, but it still is a connection.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:45 PM
HIP55 doesn't move the denylist. HIP40 does.
14:45
Just because both involve validators doesn't mean they "work well together"
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Who is in charge of the current denylist? The challenger. Who is the challenger given HIP55? A validator.
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groot
Who is in charge of the current denylist? The challenger. Who is the challenger given HIP55? A validator.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:48 PM
In HIP40, the challenger does not control the application of the denylist
14:48
A validator does
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:48 PM
since hip55 passed, validator/challenger same thing
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
since hip55 passed, validator/challenger same thing
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:48 PM
NO
14:48
FFS
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:48 PM
once activated behind variables
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You can slap your face all you want, @Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) is right. If you have a solid argument why the validator providing the challenger role does not mean that the validator will be filtering receipts, I’m happy to hear it.
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groot
You can slap your face all you want, @Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) is right. If you have a solid argument why the validator providing the challenger role does not mean that the validator will be filtering receipts, I’m happy to hear it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:53 PM
The validators applying denylists are not connected to validators issuing challenges.
14:54
They are not connected. They do not "work well together" because they are completely different functions.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The validators applying denylists are not connected to validators issuing challenges.
Well at least you figured out that the denylist is applied by validators as we said all along.
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groot
Well at least you figured out that the denylist is applied by validators as we said all along.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 2:55 PM
WTF? I never said it wasn't!
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:55 PM
I might suggest that the all in bullet points 3 & 4 under lists and general usage "Validators do not have to use the same denylist file, or any denylist at all. Only if all consensus group members both have a denylist and have matching records for a Hotspot on the denylist would any action be taken. When any transactions are submitted to the consensus group, if all consensus group members agree that a given Hotspot address is on the denylist, any transaction from that address will be marked as invalid with the reason of denylist." Should probably just be majority of some form.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
I might suggest that the all in bullet points 3 & 4 under lists and general usage "Validators do not have to use the same denylist file, or any denylist at all. Only if all consensus group members both have a denylist and have matching records for a Hotspot on the denylist would any action be taken. When any transactions are submitted to the consensus group, if all consensus group members agree that a given Hotspot address is on the denylist, any transaction from that address will be marked as invalid with the reason of denylist." Should probably just be majority of some form.
This is outdated though, I think you only need 2F+1.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 2:56 PM
Then guess someone already fixed it. woot
14:58
i swear the 2f1 is somewhere in there, i just don't see it on the rendered view
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i swear the 2f1 is somewhere in there, i just don't see it on the rendered view
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 3:01 PM
As Groot said, the doc is outdated right now. BFGNeil keeps promising an update "soon".
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 3:02 PM
I can imagine he's been busy with other things.
15:04
reguardless of correlation, it'd be nice to get this to a vote before end of month, so it could get coded and implemented with the other validator/hotspot changes over the next month +
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
reguardless of correlation, it'd be nice to get this to a vote before end of month, so it could get coded and implemented with the other validator/hotspot changes over the next month +
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/18/2022 3:08 PM
Yeah, closing the loophole of "the maker is not using the denylist" need to come to an end asap.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/18/2022 3:09 PM
syncrobit using it hasnt stopped the hacked units from earning anyways so needs to be fixed, and this seems like the best viable solution on the table
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I'd love to see some sort of repercussion for makers who are not using the denylist or even more so where makers have been caught actively gaming or facilitating gaming
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Reported on github all the evidence i found, key evidence is Rssi -15 and snr 8db between 5hs of same wallet deployed at my neighbouring hexes of 1.0 scale, locations i know are deserted and nobody can live there or host any equipment. That signal behavior is not happening in real life. They are all in same room somewhere else in the city as some others have pinged them much further away. Hopefully that puts those hs at a disadvantage. Repeating -15 to -20 rssi should doom the miner on blockchain imo
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Is there any other recourse one can take? Im glad i wasnt scaled down by this small farm but i am guessing others on the network are not so lucky if a large farm appears out of nowhere deployed in a day and witnessing only each other in one wallet.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Come on, you know damn well it will be just as flawed as current implementation, just change the location from miners to validatoes
I would add the main flaw is the management of the current denylist, and that remains after this HIP. I like the concept of the validators being able to use multiple denylists (including one that Helium maintains). But that assumes multiple sources will maintain multiple effective lists... we haven't managed to create a single, even partially-effective list yet. In fact I'd go further and say the flaw is in having a list. Moving the list from hotspots to validators is a good idea... but it's not going to suddenly make the denylist effective.
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malder
I would add the main flaw is the management of the current denylist, and that remains after this HIP. I like the concept of the validators being able to use multiple denylists (including one that Helium maintains). But that assumes multiple sources will maintain multiple effective lists... we haven't managed to create a single, even partially-effective list yet. In fact I'd go further and say the flaw is in having a list. Moving the list from hotspots to validators is a good idea... but it's not going to suddenly make the denylist effective.
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/18/2022 3:58 PM
Think you get what i mean. It will stay one big playground for the big telcos.
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16:00
And will probably be some friend politics.. Why would a validator operator use a list from someone they dont know. If someone creates a list and offers it up they have to check it all, for no actuall reall benefit for them besides spending alot of time
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16:01
Time will tell, but i dont think the gaming problem will be any better with hip40, just more transparent if the new list maintainers actually share who/what/where/why some one is listed on there list
16:02
But i even doubt that, if i would be a maintainer and my method of deciding is stating some one is cheating and they start questioning me, why would i talk to them
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NL_Miniterror_NL
And will probably be some friend politics.. Why would a validator operator use a list from someone they dont know. If someone creates a list and offers it up they have to check it all, for no actuall reall benefit for them besides spending alot of time
Time is the biggest issue in my mind. It takes a huge effort to build a list, and a bigger effort to maintain it (and deal with all the false positives). Helium's solution has been to decay the list (let old hotspots back into play), but that means the initial effort to build the list has to be repeated. We are only in the second iteration now and (a) we are still waiting on the first round of reports to be processed and (b) it seems like the rate of new cases is slowing (I might be wrong), which suggests the community who built the initial 40K denylist isn't keen on repeating that effort. The denylist assumes there will be algorithms which can build and maintain the list reliably (or multiple algorithms). Thinking this through... maybe the problem isn't the denylist (it could be the output of an algorithm)... maybe my biggest issue with it is relying on the community to constantly review and update it.
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malder
I would add the main flaw is the management of the current denylist, and that remains after this HIP. I like the concept of the validators being able to use multiple denylists (including one that Helium maintains). But that assumes multiple sources will maintain multiple effective lists... we haven't managed to create a single, even partially-effective list yet. In fact I'd go further and say the flaw is in having a list. Moving the list from hotspots to validators is a good idea... but it's not going to suddenly make the denylist effective.
that is exactly the problem. HIP40 focuses on a technical solution, but leaves the big problem open: how to maintain the list(s). It is just pushing the effort to the validators without giving them the means to act on it. that is not fair and will not work. (edited)
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And if I understood correctly, the whole implementation, maintenance and handling de-listing requests of the denylist, was all done by only one Helium employee (@abjay). But this is such an important thing for owners of more than half a million honest hotspots (who are decentrally building the network for Helium Inc), that I don’t understand why they can allocate a few more extra team members to this. At least until the list is stable and ridden of most of the unfair additions.
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01:40
I do appreciate all the hard work of the team members of Helium on all other subjects though 😊
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Hummertime
And if I understood correctly, the whole implementation, maintenance and handling de-listing requests of the denylist, was all done by only one Helium employee (@abjay). But this is such an important thing for owners of more than half a million honest hotspots (who are decentrally building the network for Helium Inc), that I don’t understand why they can allocate a few more extra team members to this. At least until the list is stable and ridden of most of the unfair additions.
That you see one public facing Helium team member does not mean he is the only one that is doing work on the denylist. I know from the secret denylist days that there were at least a few other names involved. From an efficiency point of view it makes sense to stick to one public facing team member, that way only one gets pinged constantly. (edited)
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groot
That you see one public facing Helium team member does not mean he is the only one that is doing work on the denylist. I know from the secret denylist days that there were at least a few other names involved. From an efficiency point of view it makes sense to stick to one public facing team member, that way only one gets pinged constantly. (edited)
Somebody from the Helium team itself was saying that he was doing it all alone, but indeed it seems like an impossible task for one man
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Testa
that is exactly the problem. HIP40 focuses on a technical solution, but leaves the big problem open: how to maintain the list(s). It is just pushing the effort to the validators without giving them the means to act on it. that is not fair and will not work. (edited)
There are other block lists in network security that work exactly like this and have done so for many years. IP reputation lists, domain block lists, etc. Many people publish these lists, then firewalls, and IDS software consumes them. It is up to the vendor of the firewall/IDS (and often the individual network admin) to decide which lists to consume. The model isn't perfect and there are known crap lists and many instances of things like 1.1.1.1 getting blocked, but there is also a reputation that good list publishers end up with and those get trusted and recommended to other admins. My point is the this is a widespread well tested model for handling denylists in a decentralized fashion.
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krby
There are other block lists in network security that work exactly like this and have done so for many years. IP reputation lists, domain block lists, etc. Many people publish these lists, then firewalls, and IDS software consumes them. It is up to the vendor of the firewall/IDS (and often the individual network admin) to decide which lists to consume. The model isn't perfect and there are known crap lists and many instances of things like 1.1.1.1 getting blocked, but there is also a reputation that good list publishers end up with and those get trusted and recommended to other admins. My point is the this is a widespread well tested model for handling denylists in a decentralized fashion.
All such lists i know have collateral damage. And there is at least one big difference between lists you mention and the proposed mechanism: if you implement a blocklist you feel the impact directly (and can edit or disable it). With this denylist you cannot contact the one implementing it (the validators). validators wont notice anything if there are false postives. They do not really have a direct interesst to e.g. remove a list with 1% false positives. They will not even know. That is why it would hit many innovent HS. 1% false positve rate (which is very low and difficult to achieve) would mean 6000 innovent HS on the list.. I dont think that is acceptable and it would case long term damage to helium's reputation, slowly.
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Testa
All such lists i know have collateral damage. And there is at least one big difference between lists you mention and the proposed mechanism: if you implement a blocklist you feel the impact directly (and can edit or disable it). With this denylist you cannot contact the one implementing it (the validators). validators wont notice anything if there are false postives. They do not really have a direct interesst to e.g. remove a list with 1% false positives. They will not even know. That is why it would hit many innovent HS. 1% false positve rate (which is very low and difficult to achieve) would mean 6000 innovent HS on the list.. I dont think that is acceptable and it would case long term damage to helium's reputation, slowly.
The long term damage to Helium is not something the validators care about? I hardly think that’s true (edited)
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groot
The long term damage to Helium is not something the validators care about? I hardly think that’s true (edited)
That is not what I said
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validators wont notice anything if there are false postives.
IIRC, validators voting for a denied hotspot will get penalized if the other validators don't agree? Or at least the vote won't count if it isn't at least 2F+1 validators. Your point about the direct side-effect of the list for a firewall vs this denylist is a good one, though.
(edited)
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Testa
That is not what I said
I thought it was implied based on the fact that they have no direct incentive to minimize false positives, sorry if I misunderstood.
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groot
I thought it was implied based on the fact that they have no direct incentive to minimize false positives, sorry if I misunderstood.
They by design have a stake. But not the means to assess the denylists - that is the flaw in HIP40's design. The key challene is the creation and maintenance of a denylist. And that for some reason is not addressed by this HIP. I think from a technical perspective everyone agrees, the validators are the right place to enforce the list.
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Testa
They by design have a stake. But not the means to assess the denylists - that is the flaw in HIP40's design. The key challene is the creation and maintenance of a denylist. And that for some reason is not addressed by this HIP. I think from a technical perspective everyone agrees, the validators are the right place to enforce the list.
When this HIP was created the whole idea of a large scale denylist was unthinkable and for it to ever see the light of day the governance portion was scrapped. Along came the large scale spoofing farms and capcom decided it was enough and introduced his secret naughty list. Governance and large scale denylists are suddenly not only possible but implemented (in a bad way). Great care has been taken to keep this HIP focused on the technical details and leaving the governance as decentralized as possible which is why it is notably absent from the HIP. This HIP should be judged on the merits of the technical details while leaving questions of governance for other HIP's or even decentralized at the validator level without a HIP trusting that the validators incentives are aligned with the longevity of the network.
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11:21
That governance will be a challenge should not be used as an argument to punish the HIP for the technical framework, as without the framework there will definitely be no governance.
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groot
That governance will be a challenge should not be used as an argument to punish the HIP for the technical framework, as without the framework there will definitely be no governance.
I agree this HIP is dependent on a gobernance solution. But that also means imo we first need the gobernance before implementing denylists without governance, rules etc.
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What good does a system of list governance do when you cannot use the list? Unless you propose that the list governance system be applied to the current denylist implementation?
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I have been trying to help with the deny-list for the last 10 days. With the help of Helium-France discord members, I first wrote many documented issues for most self witnessing deeper clusters in France. Then I asked everywhere how to proceed. Wrote messages and asked for help in all related discord channels for several days... got 0 answer. Then I tryed to figure it out myself. I wrote a first pull-request to close a few of the 800+ github open issues. Tried to do it as seriously as I could, and double-checked everything. Now I need the manifest to be signed... but again I don't know how to proceed and I couldn't find how to contact signature holders.
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stipus
I have been trying to help with the deny-list for the last 10 days. With the help of Helium-France discord members, I first wrote many documented issues for most self witnessing deeper clusters in France. Then I asked everywhere how to proceed. Wrote messages and asked for help in all related discord channels for several days... got 0 answer. Then I tryed to figure it out myself. I wrote a first pull-request to close a few of the 800+ github open issues. Tried to do it as seriously as I could, and double-checked everything. Now I need the manifest to be signed... but again I don't know how to proceed and I couldn't find how to contact signature holders.
hey i also just did a PR and I saw urs. Im not sure, but apparently from what I noticed is that the signature holders will sign it once they see that it is okay to sign. No need for you to contact them. Not sure what is taking so long for them to sign. from what I see is that it should be ok for them to sign already (edited)
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Going through the GitHub list of addition requests, I can also see quite a few false positives. People just being jealous of other’s high earnings, not understanding how scaling works or not being able to discern between suspicious and normal activity
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Hummertime
Going through the GitHub list of addition requests, I can also see quite a few false positives. People just being jealous of other’s high earnings, not understanding how scaling works or not being able to discern between suspicious and normal activity
Sure! That's why it takes quite a long time to review each one, and decide if they can be included in a pull-request.
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stipus
Sure! That's why it takes quite a long time to review each one, and decide if they can be included in a pull-request.
At least the denylist is slowly building up again. Although we are still only at 15% blocked hotspots in comparison to previous time. Hopefully this time it will stay, not to waste a lot of community effort of building proof against those cheaters again
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Meanwhile this guy keep fill in his pockets of HNT, after have be reported 24 hours ago on denylist.. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11hsyViz32idrBHSrX4V5rdwwQJaZB4YnyV5vCkXVcfRTS8uYhj
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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stipus
Sure! That's why it takes quite a long time to review each one, and decide if they can be included in a pull-request.
damn, Im planning to help to close the issues also. So im not sure whether is up to us (who did PR) to help review and include in a PR or not
02:56
there will definitely be false positive and human errors in settling the hotspots addresss
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Hummertime
Going through the GitHub list of addition requests, I can also see quite a few false positives. People just being jealous of other’s high earnings, not understanding how scaling works or not being able to discern between suspicious and normal activity
Maybe we need some guideline to help determine between suspicious and normal activity. I can volunteer to help close the issues, but we would need some clear instructions on what to add / remove from denylist (edited)
03:02
Feels bad for those honest miners who did earn well but are recognize as gaming the system.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/20/2022 8:54 AM
If you cant deliver the proof for a miner you want to create a PR for then dont create it. My personal view would be that all evidence should be as clear as possible for the signers that they shouldnt even need to do there own checks
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NL_Miniterror_NL
If you cant deliver the proof for a miner you want to create a PR for then dont create it. My personal view would be that all evidence should be as clear as possible for the signers that they shouldnt even need to do there own checks
well said
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hashc0de
correct. it's by far better than what we have today.
Good to hear that. We need this hip asap to fight all the active cheaters. When is the vote?
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Beaky
damn, Im planning to help to close the issues also. So im not sure whether is up to us (who did PR) to help review and include in a PR or not
On my side, I have only created issues for obvious cases. Each time for a cluster of self witnessing hotspots that appeared at a location in less than 48H, same brand same antenna, and no communication at all with any legit hotspot around for a week. (edited)
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Can a Helium foundation dev help out @Joey ? (edited)
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stipus
On my side, I have only created issues for obvious cases. Each time for a cluster of self witnessing hotspots that appeared at a location in less than 48H, same brand same antenna, and no communication at all with any legit hotspot around for a week. (edited)
Same for me, that's what I did for my region also. Is just how we gonna help check other issues by other people
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. (edited)
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Beaky
Same for me, that's what I did for my region also. Is just how we gonna help check other issues by other people
I have started adding comments on denylist issues on GitHub, adding evidence where it was missing, or explaining false positive requests in the hope that the reporter will close the issue not to waste people’s time
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23:42
Annoying how little effort people put into those posts, expecting others to do the analysis or evidence providing for them. Or logging the 100th ticket about Virtual Onyx Puma without looking at other tickets…
🤣 1
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Hummertime
Annoying how little effort people put into those posts, expecting others to do the analysis or evidence providing for them. Or logging the 100th ticket about Virtual Onyx Puma without looking at other tickets…
oh yes, some people just don't check. Or they dk what they dk. so many about virtual onyx puma, maybe they are together and just mass spam for attention
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GФMΞS
Meanwhile this guy keep fill in his pockets of HNT, after have be reported 24 hours ago on denylist.. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11hsyViz32idrBHSrX4V5rdwwQJaZB4YnyV5vCkXVcfRTS8uYhj
And he'll continue for at least a week before he gets blocked 🙄 Seems like it pays to game the system, during that period he'll pay off his hotspot three times so he won't care if it gets bricked or not. 😅
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Beaky
oh yes, some people just don't check. Or they dk what they dk. so many about virtual onyx puma, maybe they are together and just mass spam for attention
I already made it, the answer was: " No one works 24/24". Denylist is not working as intended, if we have to wait an update of several days......gammers will always profit. clear evidences like this Virtual Onyx Puma ....should be immediately banned....
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GФMΞS
I already made it, the answer was: " No one works 24/24". Denylist is not working as intended, if we have to wait an update of several days......gammers will always profit. clear evidences like this Virtual Onyx Puma ....should be immediately banned....
This is exactly the situation HIP 57 (or variations thereof) is intended to address https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/954329433244856320 Seems only part of a solution to gaming, and a contentious one, but is a recognition of the reality that there is currently no reliable way to catch and block gamers before they have time to profit, and as such they have little deterrent. SOME kind of generic mechanism to help deter multiple types of gaming seems desirable, but the specific mechanism currently described in HIP 57 might not be the best one. I would guess the end game might include: - Clarity to users on what is and isn't 'allowed' and the penalties for rule-breaking - Much better automated tools to flag & check gamers faster - Better official guidance and tools for the community to identify genuine gaming i.e. not just a github denylist, possibly with incentives for good hunting - Closing loopholes around blocking avoidance (e.g. HIP 40) - Possibly automated temporary blocking - Possibly a HIP 57-like backstop to try and neuter gamers that can evade any instant automated checks / allow time for data to be collected - An open appeals process
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HIP57....doesn't make sense to me. - Cheaters will wait those 15 days to start their cheat; - Honest users will be harmed after do an assert for a new location, for 15 days they will receive only 10% of what they should - Reward Scale will be lower and lower. Users won't adjust their location once they now they will loose 15 days of rewards - New users...only after those 15 days wil, start getting normal rewards...doesn't make sense at all (edited)
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GФMΞS
HIP57....doesn't make sense to me. - Cheaters will wait those 15 days to start their cheat; - Honest users will be harmed after do an assert for a new location, for 15 days they will receive only 10% of what they should - Reward Scale will be lower and lower. Users won't adjust their location once they now they will loose 15 days of rewards - New users...only after those 15 days wil, start getting normal rewards...doesn't make sense at all (edited)
Cheaters will wait those 15 days to start their cheat Sure, and HIP 57 needs to be honest about what kinds of gaming can and can't be spotted in 15 days. But some gaming cannot be much 'delayed' by the gamer (e.g. Deepers), and should be immediately spottable from their data Honest users will be harmed after do an assert for a new location, for 15 days they will receive only 10% of what they should Agreed, and IF something like HIP 57 was triggered on location re-assertion, arguably small location adjustments should be excluded. Though also arguably small adjustments to optimise transmit scale are small gaming and detrimental to accurate coverage New users...only after those 15 days wil, start getting normal rewards One might argue this is a small price to pay for deterring some % of gaming, as long as it's clear to new users what the process is. Also there's the counter-proposal that honest users could get their 15 days rewards delayed and then given in a lump sum at the end of the 15 day probation period. This may or may not be technically feasible. The reality seems to be that gamers can't be caught quickly enough to prevent them profiting, and so what is to be done about it?
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KXI
Cheaters will wait those 15 days to start their cheat Sure, and HIP 57 needs to be honest about what kinds of gaming can and can't be spotted in 15 days. But some gaming cannot be much 'delayed' by the gamer (e.g. Deepers), and should be immediately spottable from their data Honest users will be harmed after do an assert for a new location, for 15 days they will receive only 10% of what they should Agreed, and IF something like HIP 57 was triggered on location re-assertion, arguably small location adjustments should be excluded. Though also arguably small adjustments to optimise transmit scale are small gaming and detrimental to accurate coverage New users...only after those 15 days wil, start getting normal rewards One might argue this is a small price to pay for deterring some % of gaming, as long as it's clear to new users what the process is. Also there's the counter-proposal that honest users could get their 15 days rewards delayed and then given in a lump sum at the end of the 15 day probation period. This may or may not be technically feasible. The reality seems to be that gamers can't be caught quickly enough to prevent them profiting, and so what is to be done about it?
"The reality seems to be that gamers can't be caught quickly enough to prevent them profiting" Yes, I understand, but when we know that a user is clearly cheating, also were reported hundred times, like PUMA hotspot...and...keep profiting... These situations should be immediately banned, Helium team should be able to ban this cheaters as they know them. Ok will be centralized....but I think community would agreed to have a small group dedicated to this. (edited)
04:20
Or this...when a Hotspot on denylist....is doing more than a lot of users....🤷‍♂️ https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112NvoNnEip9GbBMXKPz9cpdor1SC2JEheXxVmw6DZ4zATGULFas
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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GФMΞS
Or this...when a Hotspot on denylist....is doing more than a lot of users....🤷‍♂️ https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112NvoNnEip9GbBMXKPz9cpdor1SC2JEheXxVmw6DZ4zATGULFas
Is that one because some miners can ignore the denylist - which is what HIP 40 aims to prevent? (I may have misunderstood)
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GФMΞS
Meanwhile this guy keep fill in his pockets of HNT, after have be reported 24 hours ago on denylist.. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11hsyViz32idrBHSrX4V5rdwwQJaZB4YnyV5vCkXVcfRTS8uYhj
I noticed that one too! He witnessed one of my hotspots from 1286km. Looks like he's intercepting all packages in a very wide region
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KXI
Is that one because some miners can ignore the denylist - which is what HIP 40 aims to prevent? (I may have misunderstood)
The current denylist is implemented on miners. HIP40 would put a denylist mechanism on the validators (which control block production) so no miners would be able to opt out of it.
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Wolverine
And he'll continue for at least a week before he gets blocked 🙄 Seems like it pays to game the system, during that period he'll pay off his hotspot three times so he won't care if it gets bricked or not. 😅
Yeah very frustrating. 11 HNT /24h, jeez
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krby
The current denylist is implemented on miners. HIP40 would put a denylist mechanism on the validators (which control block production) so no miners would be able to opt out of it.
I would be in favor of kicking miners that don't implement the denylist tech, off the network. You have to keep your hardware up-to-date
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zzeddd
I would be in favor of kicking miners that don't implement the denylist tech, off the network. You have to keep your hardware up-to-date
That would be hard to enforce for a few reasons. One how would others verify the miner had the list and was applying it? Can you trust a miner to tell you it does or doesn't have the list? I can imagine ways to do this, but it gets pretty complex. Also, culturally Helium doesn't want to do this, even Validator denylists will be optional and not run by a single authortiy. Decentralization is tough. (edited)
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We understand it's difficult to keep it decentralised.... although gamers are taking advantage of that limitation
16:43
3 days to block an obvious cheater....and still not blocked...
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Gecko Perth 03/21/2022 5:27 PM
When will hip40 be implemented?
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Gecko Perth
When will hip40 be implemented?
Sometime after it gets voted on, which will be sometime after Joey gets the help he asked for here: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/954202739301306388
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krby
Sometime after it gets voted on, which will be sometime after Joey gets the help he asked for here: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/954202739301306388
Gecko Perth 03/21/2022 7:18 PM
I'm relatively new to the helium network. From all the chat surrounding this improvement I had assumed it had already been passed. So ballpark how long do you think it will be before this is voted on and implemented? Do you think it will be the silver bullet required inorder to irradiate spoofing and the likes?
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. (edited)
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I_Dont_need_to_validate 03/22/2022 3:16 AM
onyx sill rocking
03:16
best set up on earth
03:16
🤣
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Virtual Onyx Puma should already be in the denylist
04:24
He is taking our rewards and the helium people do nothing about it
04:25
It should be called "the gamers' network" instead of "the peoples' network"
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ConvicTech
It should be called "the gamers' network" instead of "the peoples' network"
Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 03/22/2022 7:30 AM
There have been many hotspots before that 'took our rewards'. Remember Clever Smoke Raven and other 9 hotspots from the same wallet last year? If you want to help, check online hotspots that are doing similar stuff like puma, check witness receipts, and what else that indicates they are cheating, and file an issue on Github. (edited)
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Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams
There have been many hotspots before that 'took our rewards'. Remember Clever Smoke Raven and other 9 hotspots from the same wallet last year? If you want to help, check online hotspots that are doing similar stuff like puma, check witness receipts, and what else that indicates they are cheating, and file an issue on Github. (edited)
Virtual Onyx Puma has been reported many times but he is still online
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ConvicTech
Virtual Onyx Puma has been reported many times but he is still online
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/22/2022 8:48 AM
He will be still online even after he was added to the denylist.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
He will be still online even after he was added to the denylist.
Yes but he continues to earn a huge amount of hnt per day
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ConvicTech
Yes but he continues to earn a huge amount of hnt per day
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/22/2022 8:49 AM
There is a pull request in the pipeline https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2659/commits
Puma: Closes #2612 , Closes #2620 , Closes #2627 , Closes #2629 , Closes #2634 Others: Closes #2633, Closes #2635, Closes #2647, Closes #2648, Closes #2300, Closes #2452, Closes #2457, Closes #2458
08:49
Just a matter of hours
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
There is a pull request in the pipeline https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2659/commits
I wonder if they forget to add it to the csv again😂
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groot
I wonder if they forget to add it to the csv again😂
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/22/2022 8:52 AM
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
09:09
New scammer
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ConvicTech
Yes but he continues to earn a huge amount of hnt per day
Of course the earnings are scandalous. But everybody is wasting a lot of energy on that one hotspot, while if he is gone earnings of the rest will only increase by 0.01% 😉 (edited)
10:19
Better spend energy on creating GitHub denylist requests properly supported by evidence of other cheating clusters on the network
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Gecko Perth
I'm relatively new to the helium network. From all the chat surrounding this improvement I had assumed it had already been passed. So ballpark how long do you think it will be before this is voted on and implemented? Do you think it will be the silver bullet required inorder to irradiate spoofing and the likes?
I have no idea on time. Will it be a silver bullet? I don't think so. I think it will help. Gaming will evolve, the lists will evolve.
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(@NL_Miniterror_NL, continuing here) If we split the lists into different types of gaming you would end up with multiple lists, for example one for attenuation farms, one for witness stuffing, one for multiple packet forwarders. There could be a validator operator that thinks well, I agree with attenuation farms and witness stuffing but I think multiple packet forwarders are acceptable because coverage is coverage. This would lead to different hotspots being blocked by different validators according to their view of what is acceptable and what is not. Similar to krby's example of firewall blacklists, different network operator views will lead to different combination of lists. I think this is the best possible outcome in a decentralized setup.
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11:47
To consistently prevent your own hotspot to be blocked, as a validator you need approximately more or less 33% of the total amount of validators to reach (on average) the F validators you need to prevent a block. This is of course dependent on how many other operators agree with you, but you as a sole operator will need 33% which is prohibitively expensive.
11:49
My example above will also (according to my expectations) lead to a selection of lists in which most validators will deny the most blatant gaming (such as attenuation farms). The more controversial topics such as multiple packet forwarders will get less support and may or may not be blocked by a given CG. This again is perfectly in line with the expectations of a decentralized network.
11:50
One should not expect that a single list will be used or not used by the validators, but expect that some, not necessarily the same for each validator, combination of different lists is used.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/22/2022 12:06 PM
Not sure how to respond on this.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Not sure how to respond on this.
Mostly the part about 33% was directed at you. The rest is my expectations and how they (might) differ from what you said in #poc-discussion .
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krby
That would be hard to enforce for a few reasons. One how would others verify the miner had the list and was applying it? Can you trust a miner to tell you it does or doesn't have the list? I can imagine ways to do this, but it gets pretty complex. Also, culturally Helium doesn't want to do this, even Validator denylists will be optional and not run by a single authortiy. Decentralization is tough. (edited)
It's not that hard. The deny list is part of a firmware update. The miner vendors should push the firmware to all devices and comply with the latest technology. "Decentralization" is no excuse, you can still set some basic rules for a network and its participants
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zzeddd
It's not that hard. The deny list is part of a firmware update. The miner vendors should push the firmware to all devices and comply with the latest technology. "Decentralization" is no excuse, you can still set some basic rules for a network and its participants
You have to verify it and enforce it. It is easy for makers to build their own version of "a firmware update". They do this now. For several it's just a Docker image that runs their own build of the open source miner project. How do we know which ones to knock off the network? What piece of information does the network use to determine if these hotspots are complying? What piece of software makes that determination, validators? How do the validators know for sure this miner is not complying? Does it ask the suspect miner? This is not a case of miner vendors not using the latest code. They are, they're just using their own version of it, which (so far) is totally allowed. Just like I can run any version of the bitcoin node software I want, including one I built myself, as long as it complies with the expected protocol. (edited)
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Is it worth reporting individual hotspots that are asserted in a different location - more than a hex away (multiple hotspots from multiple wallets) or is it just adding more workload and I should report only clusters of gaming hotspots, more than X amount of hotspots? As I am mapping my local area I discovered quite a few hotspots that are asserted around my town but they are nowhere to be seen on the mapping map and they don't receive the beacons my mapper is sending out. Also I've got the TTNmapper integration and it shows the receiving hotspots and I can pretty much work out where a hotspot is located by using the hotspot heatmap and compare with the helium explorer and heliumtracker map.
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Hi, I'm trying to understand. The denylist is at the blockchain level or must be deployed on hotspots. Why do people in denylist still get compensation like this 11BeDXT6uwXKvFAqnbuiX1Yomk8BrD9Ro3RaFohTd464oY5KLD2
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chida
Hi, I'm trying to understand. The denylist is at the blockchain level or must be deployed on hotspots. Why do people in denylist still get compensation like this 11BeDXT6uwXKvFAqnbuiX1Yomk8BrD9Ro3RaFohTd464oY5KLD2
He is blocked
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chida
Hi, I'm trying to understand. The denylist is at the blockchain level or must be deployed on hotspots. Why do people in denylist still get compensation like this 11BeDXT6uwXKvFAqnbuiX1Yomk8BrD9Ro3RaFohTd464oY5KLD2
A lot of them keep farming.... Finally after 4 days Puma was "blocked" but guess what...he keep getting rewards and activity
04:09
Look the denylist, and their last 24h rewards https://www.heliumboard.com/denylist
Helium Board is a sophisticated tool for seeing reports for Helium hotspots and the overall Helium network.
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GФMΞS
Look the denylist, and their last 24h rewards https://www.heliumboard.com/denylist
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/23/2022 4:20 AM
They were added 11hrs ago, but looks like it's taking effect
04:21
Don't forget that manufacturers have to update their denylist too
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Don't forget that manufacturers have to update their denylist too
I think it would help if there was some clear, short description of the current process for people, which you could then refer posters to so as they can understand what to expect. It is understandable if many people assume; gaming like this should but caught automatically, denying such obvious gaming should be 'quick', and it should have immediate effect. A separate help document explaining these, would help set expectations and reduce confusion and anger. If there is such a help doc, I've never seen it linked to in response to the issue being raised
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Don't forget that manufacturers have to update their denylist too
Manufacturers don't have to do anything, they either include it and it gets updated every 6h (based on miner boot time) or they don't include it. That is where the delay and staggered stop comes from, more and more hotspots have the new list. (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Don't forget that manufacturers have to update their denylist too
I understand...and that is a problem too. Network is pending if they update or not
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groot
Manufacturers don't have to do anything, they either include it and it gets updated every 6h (based on miner boot time) or they don't include it. That is where the delay and staggered stop comes from, more and more hotspots have the new list. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/23/2022 4:29 AM
Sorry, should have been clearer on that.
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GФMΞS
I understand...and that is a problem too. Network is pending if they update or not
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/23/2022 4:29 AM
It's still a bandaid fix, the real denylist is #hip-40-validator-denylist
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No worries, just thought I'd clarify before the conspiracies run wild.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
It's still a bandaid fix, the real denylist is #hip-40-validator-denylist
Yes......but check how many time we are dealing with this Hip40......
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KXI
I think it would help if there was some clear, short description of the current process for people, which you could then refer posters to so as they can understand what to expect. It is understandable if many people assume; gaming like this should but caught automatically, denying such obvious gaming should be 'quick', and it should have immediate effect. A separate help document explaining these, would help set expectations and reduce confusion and anger. If there is such a help doc, I've never seen it linked to in response to the issue being raised
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/23/2022 4:30 AM
I think it was explained, in #announcements . But that was months ago
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GФMΞS
Yes......but check how many time we are dealing with this Hip40......
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/23/2022 4:30 AM
Well, it's up to the author, when he is ready, he is ready
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Well, it's up to the author, when he is ready, he is ready
I understand, but at the same time, how can big companies invest in this project If their business can me compromised by an HIP that can take months to be active? It's how decentralization works.....but at the same time,....I wouldn't trust as investor, once it's a big risk.
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GФMΞS
I understand, but at the same time, how can big companies invest in this project If their business can me compromised by an HIP that can take months to be active? It's how decentralization works.....but at the same time,....I wouldn't trust as investor, once it's a big risk.
How exactly is their business compromised? Your earnings are compromised but why would I care as an business using the network? Yes it is a pity you think there is coverage somewhere when in reality there isn't, but that's no different with the telco's so you'll always map coverage yourself first. HIP56 on the other hand, that did improve service for the network users was pushed through in weeks not months. (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I think it was explained, in #announcements . But that was months ago
Exactly. Seems unreasonable to expect a new helium user to understand how certain important processes work by reading all of the discord announcements from months back. Gaming seems something many posters are concerned about and some knowledge base articles on this would probably make community moderation easier?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Don't forget that manufacturers have to update their denylist too
so, the deny list is in to miner? so they can remove the file or stop update?
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The denylist is at the blockchain level or must be deployed on hotspots?
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it's on the hotspot
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why not implementation on validator?
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chida
why not implementation on validator?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/23/2022 7:02 AM
this is the plan, this is why we have #hip-40-validator-denylist
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if I'm not mistaken it has passed. is there an expected date? is there a goal in this regard?
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chida
if I'm not mistaken it has passed. is there an expected date? is there a goal in this regard?
NL_Miniterror_NL 03/23/2022 7:05 AM
It hasnt been voted on yet, and as far as i know there isnt a date yet when it will be voted on as there is still some documentation to be created
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Deleted User 03/23/2022 9:51 AM
Im on the denylist what do i have to do?
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Deleted User
Im on the denylist what do i have to do?
Create an issue on the GitHub page of the helium denylist, and provide lots of proof why you should be considered an honest hotspot
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Deleted User 03/23/2022 11:06 AM
Where can i Find github page of the denylist
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Have you tried to google it?
11:08
Www.Google.com
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Deleted User
Where can i Find github page of the denylist
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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chida
if I'm not mistaken it has passed. is there an expected date? is there a goal in this regard?
You're mistaken. This has not been voted on.
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Hummertime
Have you tried to google it?
Deleted User 03/23/2022 11:59 AM
Have you tried minding your own businesses?
facepalm 1
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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Deleted User
Have you tried minding your own businesses?
Apologies if I offended you. I was just trying to teach you some skills that would help you for the rest of your life; being able to find things on your own without hand holding
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Deleted User
Im on the denylist what do i have to do?
I have made a video on it https://youtu.be/UnFJq8ChaCE
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@Helium Team: Could you please put some more resources on expanding the denylist? Or organize help from the community in creating PRs and signing? In the past week only several hundred hotspots were added, but there were even more cheaters added to the network in that same period. We are falling behind instead of catching up…
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krby
You have to verify it and enforce it. It is easy for makers to build their own version of "a firmware update". They do this now. For several it's just a Docker image that runs their own build of the open source miner project. How do we know which ones to knock off the network? What piece of information does the network use to determine if these hotspots are complying? What piece of software makes that determination, validators? How do the validators know for sure this miner is not complying? Does it ask the suspect miner? This is not a case of miner vendors not using the latest code. They are, they're just using their own version of it, which (so far) is totally allowed. Just like I can run any version of the bitcoin node software I want, including one I built myself, as long as it complies with the expected protocol. (edited)
You can see if they still communicatie with miners on the deny-list, it's not that hard. Miners have to comply with the latest firmware in order to work. Cot-X was temporary banned last year as their miners were suspected to be used for cheating. It's all possible, if the Helium foundation wants to. Currently the honest miners suffer income loss due to the many cheaters
facepalm 1
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you can see
who can see? Who does the banning? Other miners? If so, what specific mechanism do these other miners use to block? If you mean validators, then YES! That is exactly what HIP-40 is about, but it is not yet passed or implemented. Helium can't just enforce that validators use a deny list. Validator operators can build from source, running different code and choose not to.
It's all possible, if the Helium foundation wants to.
...and enough validators agree to run the new software.e
it's not that hard.
You keep saying this, can you provide concrete technical details about how this works? Which software is blocking, how it is blocking, how it determines who to block or not, how to trust those results.
(edited)
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Already created an issue....but for nothing... https://ibb.co/RbqGBPc
03:04
All the same user for sure, only witnessing each other...no other users have the same performance in Netherlands...and this guy...has this performance in all hotspots...🤦‍♂️
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Looks like nobody cares about cheaters
facepalm 1
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WGACA
Looks like nobody cares about cheaters
I got on the deny list with only 0.3 HNT per day (edited)
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WGACA
Looks like nobody cares about cheaters
Long_Live_Trust 03/27/2022 4:51 AM
You're right
04:52
Hotspot b58 Addresses i reported them Discord Handle No response Reason(s) I reported these issues, many of honest owners also reported, there are nearly 1000 thousand issues not resolved. Would yo...
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Petzl
I got on the deny list with only 0.3 HNT per day (edited)
I got with only 0.11☹️ Just wasted time and tons of money.
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The implementation of the denylist is childish. They kicked out a lot of valid hotspots. (edited)
18:04
When they removed banned hotspots from the denylist what happened to those they added them in the first place ? Why are they still allow to post new additions ? (edited)
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18:04
Where is the compensatiotn for those that are banned incorrectly ?
18:07
What kind of joke is this, ban hotspots because some anonymous people post it on github telling lies ? (edited)
facepalm 1
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18:08
Is anyone in Helium supervise this denylist with maturity or are just rooks playing with it ?
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So I'm so losing my patience here, already on that denylist for 2 months. I haven't gotten any anwser of feedback on my issues #863 got closed with automated msg, #2239 still open. As far as I know I'm not doing anything wrong and if I did, Im willing to change my setup accordingly,.... I mean there must somehting or someone I can reach out too to help me get off that list?
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where can i report spoofers? We have those that send beacons 1600km
00:22
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
00:23
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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SpiderX1
where can i report spoofers? We have those that send beacons 1600km
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 12:25 AM
Definitely odd, but doesn't seem they are spoofing. Also PoC is doing it's job
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
00:26
how is this possible? See beacons send over 1600 km=
00:29
Some of the miners had been there for a month. but they're all online at once since yesterday, the day before yesterday
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SpiderX1
how is this possible? See beacons send over 1600 km=
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 12:30 AM
Could have been moved with re-assertions
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are all from the same manufacturer and also at almost the same level and the same dbi. But there are not so high houses or the like
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SpiderX1
Some of the miners had been there for a month. but they're all online at once since yesterday, the day before yesterday
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 12:31 AM
This is odd, but spoofing cluster are normally concentrated locally
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strange
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SpiderX1
are all from the same manufacturer and also at almost the same level and the same dbi. But there are not so high houses or the like
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 12:31 AM
It's not an indicator for spoofing though
00:32
They don't seem to earn much anyway
00:32
Could have been part of a cluster and they just sold it off
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yes, but something is wrong. A month ago he distributed about 30 pieces to us. Now there are 5 different wallets at once, each with 4-5 miners.
00:33
Then it's not worth reporting?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Could have been part of a cluster and they just sold it off
That sounds like it
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SpiderX1
That sounds like it
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 12:37 AM
It hope it's that, would mean that the denylist has effects on spoofing companies
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Definitely odd, but doesn't seem they are spoofing. Also PoC is doing it's job
So have I got this right: - Some witnesses over 1,300km - Some witnesses with RSSI too high - Only witnesses other Pisces miners (an uncommon miner that is known to work normally) - All the witnesses only witness other Pisces in the same witness cluster (at least all those I checked), despite all being amongst many other hotspots - Some of the shorter witnesses (6 km) are through the middle of a large mountain e.g. puny iris seagull to breezy mango shell - All heights asserted over 31m i.e. very high - Relayed And this 'doesn't seem they are spoofing'? Interested to know what signals would make it seem they were spoofing?
👍 1
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KXI
So have I got this right: - Some witnesses over 1,300km - Some witnesses with RSSI too high - Only witnesses other Pisces miners (an uncommon miner that is known to work normally) - All the witnesses only witness other Pisces in the same witness cluster (at least all those I checked), despite all being amongst many other hotspots - Some of the shorter witnesses (6 km) are through the middle of a large mountain e.g. puny iris seagull to breezy mango shell - All heights asserted over 31m i.e. very high - Relayed And this 'doesn't seem they are spoofing'? Interested to know what signals would make it seem they were spoofing?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 2:17 AM
Is it spoofing? Maybe. Is it enough reason to add to a (already over requested) denylist? No (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Is it spoofing? Maybe. Is it enough reason to add to a (already over requested) denylist? No (edited)
The cluster is clearly fake, based on the information that can be easily seen publically. Perhaps there is additional information those in the know could access to explain it I suppose. What you seem to be saying is 'people should not add clearly fake hotspots to the denylist for further investigation because ...... it's got too many on it already'. This seems like an odd message from a moderator don't you think? It's odd that you would not consider the above behaviours as suggestive of gaming. Again - what behaviours would you consider suggestive? If these shouldn't be flagged for denylist investigation - then what should? (edited)
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KXI
The cluster is clearly fake, based on the information that can be easily seen publically. Perhaps there is additional information those in the know could access to explain it I suppose. What you seem to be saying is 'people should not add clearly fake hotspots to the denylist for further investigation because ...... it's got too many on it already'. This seems like an odd message from a moderator don't you think? It's odd that you would not consider the above behaviours as suggestive of gaming. Again - what behaviours would you consider suggestive? If these shouldn't be flagged for denylist investigation - then what should? (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 2:37 AM
No need to gaslight me. But since you wanted an explanation: The "cluster" is decentralized, which is odd for a spoofing cluster (hence my conclusion that its probably remnants from a spoofing cluster once). Besides that, look at the earnings, are they Lava Lemur or Onyx Puma levels? No. Publicly available information is not water tight. The only real way to proof spoofing would be going down there and map it yourself, but even that isn't solid proof But to sum it all up: I personally don't think it's worth the addition. But then again my opinion is meaning less here, I'm not maintaining the list. (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
No need to gaslight me. But since you wanted an explanation: The "cluster" is decentralized, which is odd for a spoofing cluster (hence my conclusion that its probably remnants from a spoofing cluster once). Besides that, look at the earnings, are they Lava Lemur or Onyx Puma levels? No. Publicly available information is not water tight. The only real way to proof spoofing would be going down there and map it yourself, but even that isn't solid proof But to sum it all up: I personally don't think it's worth the addition. But then again my opinion is meaning less here, I'm not maintaining the list. (edited)
How is this gaslighting? Gaslightling is when you lie to someone, which clearly I'm not doing. Now you are slandering me in a public forum for pointing out factual information about the behaviour of these hotspots and how this appears to be at odds with your judgement of them. I don't think that's great behaviour do you? Organised gamers must be laughing if they can avoid detection simply by asserting their clusters in a distributed way and staying within lower earnings per spot.
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KXI
How is this gaslighting? Gaslightling is when you lie to someone, which clearly I'm not doing. Now you are slandering me in a public forum for pointing out factual information about the behaviour of these hotspots and how this appears to be at odds with your judgement of them. I don't think that's great behaviour do you? Organised gamers must be laughing if they can avoid detection simply by asserting their clusters in a distributed way and staying within lower earnings per spot.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 2:54 AM
Well you are pushing a narrative that I am the "bad" guy. If you want to do something constructive, how about you go ahead an report your spoofer? I just gave my opinion
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johnson1872022 03/28/2022 7:25 AM
Denylist like a beta. The system cheating loophole should be fixed as soon as possible, the Denylist solution is immature.
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johnson1872022
Denylist like a beta. The system cheating loophole should be fixed as soon as possible, the Denylist solution is immature.
looks more like alpha
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How often are they updating the denylist?
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Can anyone explain why I'm still on the denylist for the past 7 weeks. Made issue #863 , got an automated anwser that they cant look into it because of too many issues up. Made a new issue #2239 But I get no response or anything. I think I'm up there unfairly, but if not. I need to know why, so i can adapt accordly. I got 3 miners running, this already since august 2021, I need help pls.
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KXI
How is this gaslighting? Gaslightling is when you lie to someone, which clearly I'm not doing. Now you are slandering me in a public forum for pointing out factual information about the behaviour of these hotspots and how this appears to be at odds with your judgement of them. I don't think that's great behaviour do you? Organised gamers must be laughing if they can avoid detection simply by asserting their clusters in a distributed way and staying within lower earnings per spot.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/28/2022 12:26 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
And what is this supposed to mean?
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KXI
And what is this supposed to mean?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/28/2022 1:59 PM
Your definition of "gaslighting"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your definition of "gaslighting"
Hmmm, bit confused now. Gaslighting is quite literally about being deceptive i.e. lying, is it not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting Unless this is a meta-thing? Gaslighting someone about the meaning of 'gaslighting'? If so, touche.
Gaslighting is a colloquialism, loosely defined as making someone question their own reality.The term may also be used to describe a person (a "gaslighter") who presents a false narrative to another group or person which leads them to doubt their perceptions and become misled (generally for the gaslighter's own benefit), disoriented or distresse...
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I didn't want to start a fight here. I just wanted to know where and if I should report this. you realize that something is wrong here. whether they earn a lot or not
14:27
But what interests me the most is how that can happen
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SpiderX1
I didn't want to start a fight here. I just wanted to know where and if I should report this. you realize that something is wrong here. whether they earn a lot or not
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 2:28 PM
Don't worry i have no beef with you. You can report them here: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues If you need help with the form, just hit me up 👍
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
👍🏻 1
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thank you peso! but do you know how this can happen? So send beacons several times at that distance? It interests me as a technician how something like this is going on
14:34
I can't see through it anymore
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SpiderX1
thank you peso! but do you know how this can happen? So send beacons several times at that distance? It interests me as a technician how something like this is going on
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/28/2022 11:29 PM
It doesn't look like normal spoofing to me, that's what is confusing. Usually they use localized clusters to not appear suspicious. But this is more than suspicious and obv discovered fast
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These were all offline for about 1.5 months. Suddenly everyone online on the same day
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SpiderX1
These were all offline for about 1.5 months. Suddenly everyone online on the same day
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/29/2022 12:16 AM
Sounds like more reason to believe they were spoofing units, that got liquidated.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Don't worry i have no beef with you. You can report them here: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues If you need help with the form, just hit me up 👍
Is there a way to unreport? I've been on the list for 7 weeks. I've made 2 issues on Github. I'm active searching for anwsers on discord but I can't find any,... As far as I know I'm not doing anything wrong, and if I did, I will adept accordly and adjust whatever I can do to earn rewards again....
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Toxar
Is there a way to unreport? I've been on the list for 7 weeks. I've made 2 issues on Github. I'm active searching for anwsers on discord but I can't find any,... As far as I know I'm not doing anything wrong, and if I did, I will adept accordly and adjust whatever I can do to earn rewards again....
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/29/2022 12:13 PM
Yup, just choose removal instead of addition
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yup, just choose removal instead of addition
Ok, and what happens if you never get removed from it?
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Toxar
Ok, and what happens if you never get removed from it?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/30/2022 12:40 AM
Then you will stay on the denylist (edited)
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Toxar
Is there a way to unreport? I've been on the list for 7 weeks. I've made 2 issues on Github. I'm active searching for anwsers on discord but I can't find any,... As far as I know I'm not doing anything wrong, and if I did, I will adept accordly and adjust whatever I can do to earn rewards again....
I would add more proof to your removal request. Adding a picture of an antenne could be anywhere and anybody. Within the picture, show your app which is connected to the hotspot by bluetooth, as well as a tablet with google maps with the GPS location and compare that with the location shown on hotspotty. Also show your past beacon and witness list as well as an explanation why signal values are normal for the distance. Also, find the request which put you on the denylist in the first place and proof why yours is incorrectly within that list (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 03/30/2022 1:44 AM
Witnesses are informational and based on a rolling 5-day period of successful Proof-of-Coverage witness receipts. The list also resets if a Hotspot updates location, changes antenna, or elevation. Read more here: https://docs.helium.com/troubleshooting/understanding-witnesses
Witnesses on the Helium network are Hotspots that have seen (or witnessed) a Proof-of-Coverage packet from a Hotspot. This single-stage Proof-of-Coverage challenge is also known as a "Beacon".
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Hummertime
I would add more proof to your removal request. Adding a picture of an antenne could be anywhere and anybody. Within the picture, show your app which is connected to the hotspot by bluetooth, as well as a tablet with google maps with the GPS location and compare that with the location shown on hotspotty. Also show your past beacon and witness list as well as an explanation why signal values are normal for the distance. Also, find the request which put you on the denylist in the first place and proof why yours is incorrectly within that list (edited)
Thanks after weeks of roaming around, someone with some usefull information. I''ll do that and add it to my request. Is there any info on the diagnostic screenshot that is best not shown on the internet in case of hackers and privacy when connected with bluetooth?
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Toxar
Thanks after weeks of roaming around, someone with some usefull information. I''ll do that and add it to my request. Is there any info on the diagnostic screenshot that is best not shown on the internet in case of hackers and privacy when connected with bluetooth?
I would not know what should be private in that screenshot. But if somebody else sees a danger in that, perhaps they can enlighten us
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Hummertime
I would add more proof to your removal request. Adding a picture of an antenne could be anywhere and anybody. Within the picture, show your app which is connected to the hotspot by bluetooth, as well as a tablet with google maps with the GPS location and compare that with the location shown on hotspotty. Also show your past beacon and witness list as well as an explanation why signal values are normal for the distance. Also, find the request which put you on the denylist in the first place and proof why yours is incorrectly within that list (edited)
Ho do I find the request that put me on the list?
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Toxar
Ho do I find the request that put me on the list?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/30/2022 12:28 PM
I think a search of your address would find them (if it was a manual request vs one via algorithm)
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under the issues tab?
12:31
It only pick ups my removal issues
12:35
I guess I get rekt by the Algoritm,... The thing is no one is looking at it manually,... They closed my issue the 1st time by automated message,... So even if I add picture with proof of location and proof of a legit miner it doenst matter if no one looks into it,... What's the point really of making a removal issue? 2 months on the list now, unfairly from my point of view.....
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Toxar
I guess I get rekt by the Algoritm,... The thing is no one is looking at it manually,... They closed my issue the 1st time by automated message,... So even if I add picture with proof of location and proof of a legit miner it doenst matter if no one looks into it,... What's the point really of making a removal issue? 2 months on the list now, unfairly from my point of view.....
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/30/2022 12:55 PM
Any idea why you might have been added? My understanding is the algo looks for some specific stuff. (edited)
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Toxar
I guess I get rekt by the Algoritm,... The thing is no one is looking at it manually,... They closed my issue the 1st time by automated message,... So even if I add picture with proof of location and proof of a legit miner it doenst matter if no one looks into it,... What's the point really of making a removal issue? 2 months on the list now, unfairly from my point of view.....
If you share the name of the hotspot we could run it through the standard charts. Or someone already did? (edited)
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I got no clue tbh -> Sour Blood Deer
12:58
Hotspot Name Sour Blood Deer Hotspot b58 Address 11mfacvSSKYdxWCgwDyfuuEGSv8Lo9YkQyKNS7aqisha7paFvg8 Discord Handle Toxar#5466 Hotspot Manufacturer Sensecap M1 Removal Reason As far as I know, I ha...
13:02
Can't add pics here
13:03
Doesn't look very sus on first sight..
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Sloth
Can't add pics here
for? perhaps dm me?
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I'd open a new case again and again till they respond.
13:05
you're very patient
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Sloth
you're very patient
well, I can't really do anything else😅
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Toxar
for? perhaps dm me?
RSSI/SNR and RSSI/Distance looks as expected. Most witnesses on a distance similar to the distance of the nearby maastricht
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Toxar
well, I can't really do anything else😅
Only way seems to bother them daily.. I've seen very few being removed and those were loud talkers.
13:08
They don't seem to be looking at older issues
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Sloth
Only way seems to bother them daily.. I've seen very few being removed and those were loud talkers.
Ok, how to bother them? and who?
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Sloth
They don't seem to be looking at older issues
I made a new issue, that one is still open. The older one was closed by automated message
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Toxar
I got no clue tbh -> Sour Blood Deer
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/30/2022 1:11 PM
Sounds like a black metal band name. lol 🤘
😂 2
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What website is that?
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Those -30 flyers are pretty high though. Do you have another hotspot nearby?
13:15
Did you ever run another hotspot in the same location?
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Sloth
Those -30 flyers are pretty high though. Do you have another hotspot nearby?
not inside my hexagon
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40 days ago
13:16
-23 RSSI; 7 SNR = very high and a beacon of a very, very close hotspot. I don't see another one on the map.. so what happened 😉 (edited)
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I don't know, I installed it back in august/septmeber of 2021 and never touched it again.
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-20 to -30 values, even with a 6dBi antenna means another hotspot was within 20 meter of your hotspot. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/30/2022 1:20 PM
@Sloth in that region... I wonder if they're being affected by this whole "rebroadcast" thing that is reported to make legit hotpots look sus?
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Sloth
-20 to -30 values, even with a 6dBi antenna means another hotspot was within 20 meter of your hotspot. (edited)
weird, I use an 8dbi antenna and was the first miner in a radius of 5 km around me
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
@Sloth in that region... I wonder if they're being affected by this whole "rebroadcast" thing that is reported to make legit hotpots look sus?
You're on to something
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I don't understand how one of the graphs shows -30 while the other one does not, what happened there? 2000 rows of both queries are probably the same?
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What does 'sus' means?
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Toxar
What does 'sus' means?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/30/2022 1:21 PM
oh... Slang for "suspicious" 🙂
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groot
I don't understand how one of the graphs shows -30 while the other one does not, what happened there? 2000 rows of both queries are probably the same?
RSSI/SNR I used your code change. The other one is made by molano. Not sure why the 33 is missing.
13:22
Oh this is fun
13:22
One of your neighbours is having a -9dBm RSSI 😲
😮 1
13:23
and another one -21 as well
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Oh I think molano correctly ordered them, I obviously didn't
13:25
Docile Emerald Locust
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Sloth
One of your neighbours is having a -9dBm RSSI 😲
this means?
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That the signal is incredibly strong. Like massive.
13:27
I'm finding a lot more of those in your area. Check any hotspot that is online for more than 2 months and has above average earnings.
13:27
But they haven't been banned..
13:28
Helpful Gunmetal Yak: -9 RSSI +7 SNR Someone very close might have been rebroadcasting to your area(with quite a strong setup..). (edited)
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RSSI -9 dBm is ridiculous, if you tape the antennas together you'll have trouble attaining that, unlikely from rebroadcasting. (edited)
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+40dBm transmitter and 6dBi antenna on receiver gives that at 20 meter according to FSPL calcs(I think?). (edited)
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So basicly some are spoofing around my area, i witness them, then i get put on the denylist for?
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Sloth
Helpful Gunmetal Yak: -9 RSSI +7 SNR Someone very close might have been rebroadcasting to your area(with quite a strong setup..). (edited)
very close as in?
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Or you are a bad boy, because I find 10's of those hotspots in the area 😛
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40dBm transmission is very high, don't think the concentrator even goes that high
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external amp with panel. But it is a too crazy number (edited)
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What is more likely than that scenario is that someone messed up their middleman metadata adjustment 🙊
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Also rather strange that the hotspot is witnessed 570km away. While I am not confident enough to give any sort of conclusion, saying everything looks fine is also not quite true. (edited)
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you're right 🙂. Hence the wording "first sight". The area looks a bit sus. (edited)
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At least I can ensure you, I haven't done anyhting on purpose. 10m LMR 400 with an 8 dbi on a sensecap m1 connected to ethernet on 10 height. Basic simple home setup. And boom after 5 months of working perfectly I end up on the list..... (edited)
13:40
..If I replace my 8 dbi with a 6.5 or 5.8 dbi, would that be a solution?
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No. You need to convince someone that these numbers have a logical explanation. (edited)
13:41
Did you every do a site survey on nearby hotspots? Like the high earners nearby. Could you spot any antenna? Someone who is making 0.6HNT doesn't have it hidden in the attic. (edited)
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No never
13:43
Well I was earning around 0.8-1 hnt a day pre PoCv11 and about 0.5-0.6 on my other miner(bobcat)
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These hotspots around you are def. material to look into. they all have -9 RSSI +7 SNR in the same period. Looks like a math error in some script. 😉
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then again they didnt get on the list
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nope.. to me it's a mystery why you ended up and they didn't but as groot says.. your numbers also don't look clean. (edited)
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yeah, that thing needs a modification in the script
13:48
lol, your area.. there are too many hotspots with extremely high values which as groot says are almost impossible to get with just RF 😂 🙊
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Sloth
nope.. to me it's a mystery why you ended up and they didn't but as groot says.. your numbers also don't look clean. (edited)
So in the worst case, I'm screwed because my numbers don't add up and stay on the list permanently? As no-one from Helium will come to my home and check that I'm not not cheating,....
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Sloth
lol, your area.. there are too many hotspots with extremely high values which as groot says are almost impossible to get with just RF 😂 🙊
That's weird, I know quite a few ppl with miners around my area. with outdoor antenna's and all and they're not cheating in anyway. More or less the same setup as me. So strange
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Original Fossilized Walrus RSSI/Distance looks weird. And also a lot of very high RSSI/SNR values. Great Slate Gorilla, same story Bottomline of the story: someone in the area is making good money. I think I checked already 20+ hotspots. All have the same discrepancies. (edited)
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there were like 8 miners in Maastricht and 5ish around me in about 10-15km range. The network has grown so hard,.... Just shit, that out of the 3 miners my best miner got listed. Also the workaround for the list etcetera is just awefull.
13:56
Well, thanks anyways for your time. I guess ill keep making issue and hope 1 day I get delisted
13:56
Btw,
13:57
If I change the location for a miner, find a new home somwhere, how does that work? will it still be listed?
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it will still be listed
13:58
you can probably only hope for a periodic cleanup where they remove offline hotspots from the list. But that can take months if ever happens.
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İs there any new list or any update done?
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cryptoz
İs there any new list or any update done?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/01/2022 3:32 AM
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I'm speechless,very sad.
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2022-03-31 19:18:43.692 1 [info] <0.1879.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{109,29} new denylist version appeared: 2022033001 have 2022032801 2022-03-31 19:18:44.038 1 [notice] <0.1879.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{159,69} failed to verify signature on denylist 2022-04-01 01:18:44.145 1 [info] <0.1879.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{109,29} new denylist version appeared: 2022033001 have 2022032801 2022-04-01 01:18:44.404 1 [notice] <0.1879.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{159,69} failed to verify signature on denylist 2022-04-01 07:18:44.529 1 [info] <0.1879.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{109,29} new denylist version appeared: 2022033001 have 2022032801 2022-04-01 07:18:44.796 1 [notice] <0.1879.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:{159,69} failed to verify signature on denylist The current list does not seem to be correct.
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and banned , 'i'm always wondering where those miners get their data from
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all from the same guy above... https://ibb.co/DkBLJfG
🤬 1
06:30
why this Hip40 it's stopped? (edited)
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That one is getting data whole europe
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@Toxar i have also one in the same region , it is now on the deny list , but this one is also getting many to high SNR beacons.
06:39
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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Paris is full of high earners...
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and my other one in the same region looks currently perfectly fine besides the fact that it is also banned: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112SQ8JV5vQfMHsWnhZUXTqoH7gDrPpkacEGz4DGCTyEZDBKdk4C/activity
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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it's not worth reporting cheaters every day, then they end up on denylist and.... there are these flaws....manufacturers probably don't apply denylist....we're just wasting time trying to find and report cheaters
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Will appeals on denylist still be processed?
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hmmm does it has something to do that my antenna is set at 8.1 dbi (like the antenna is ) and not 8dbi
06:51
at the other location it is just set to 8 dbi
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Does someone know a good calculator for this witness RSSI things ? (edited)
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Petzl
and my other one in the same region looks currently perfectly fine besides the fact that it is also banned: https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112SQ8JV5vQfMHsWnhZUXTqoH7gDrPpkacEGz4DGCTyEZDBKdk4C/activity
Probably something to do with the fact that witnesses 30km away are just as strong as witnesses < 5km away.
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i was wondering why this is invalid : Invalid Witness: Witness RSSI too high Distance~41 km RSSI-93 dBm SNR-9.8 dB Frequency868.5 MHz
07:18
so what would be the correct value
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Iron man
Will appeals on denylist still be processed?
There were two successful appeals made just today e.g. https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2885
Hotspot Name Recumbent Navy Narwhal Hotspot b58 Address 11QE8qLrnoamQLZ5Xy5XGcD16SdKKuYtAeYayF3rYjH7w6EwNqe Discord Handle No response Hotspot Manufacturer RAK Removal Reason see issue 2797 Modific...
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Denylist isn't active.....just check them........🤦‍♂️ https://www.heliumboard.com/denylist?status=3&order=4&sort=desc
Helium Board is a sophisticated tool for seeing reports for Helium hotspots and the overall Helium network.
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GФMΞS
Denylist isn't active.....just check them........🤦‍♂️ https://www.heliumboard.com/denylist?status=3&order=4&sort=desc
Kay - Cosmos IoT 04/01/2022 10:22 AM
People in charge of the denylist are failing
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Kay - Cosmos IoT
People in charge of the denylist are failing
This is not true. The denylist team flagged over 7,000 gaming hotspots in the last 3 days, this is a huge effort, made AFAIK by a volunteer team. The ones above from Paris are still earning because the new deny list takes several hours to take effect. Check tomorrow and you should see a dramatic difference
👍 1
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Kay - Cosmos IoT
People in charge of the denylist are failing
Maybe you should volunteer to help them?
💪 3
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Kay - Cosmos IoT 04/01/2022 1:28 PM
I’m doing already. But in my opinion is it the responsibility of the Helium Foundation. Maybe they hire the volunteers and pay them in HNT for doing there work.
☝🏼 3
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KXI
This is not true. The denylist team flagged over 7,000 gaming hotspots in the last 3 days, this is a huge effort, made AFAIK by a volunteer team. The ones above from Paris are still earning because the new deny list takes several hours to take effect. Check tomorrow and you should see a dramatic difference
Why come the hotspot has not been turned on and is marked in the Denylist?
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yuzg
Why come the hotspot has not been turned on and is marked in the Denylist?
which one?
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118vA7sUn2m8EgovsdVDTtMJn2Sj3oe8CtH9tzsMi7wxvjwqxDd@Fizzy
01:23
因为4G路由器一直没有测试完成,所以经有将近一个月没有开机了
01:23
The 4G router has not been turned on for nearly a month because the test has not been completed
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yuzg
The 4G router has not been turned on for nearly a month because the test has not been completed
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/02/2022 2:59 AM
Wrong channel, please ask in #questions-and-answers or #hotspot-help instead
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just question regarding issue #2920. One wallet with 640 hotspots. With the known recurrent irregularities. But over last 9 months this owner, transferring large amount (due poc rewards) to one address 13c9xK1ARjhnJ7McYJCBXkhYJeU4opxoX5uBnvsULUmAngRecPs as a 20-validators account. Is this a flag/or the kind of trick where validators+malicious setups are keep going?
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odlaetet
just question regarding issue #2920. One wallet with 640 hotspots. With the known recurrent irregularities. But over last 9 months this owner, transferring large amount (due poc rewards) to one address 13c9xK1ARjhnJ7McYJCBXkhYJeU4opxoX5uBnvsULUmAngRecPs as a 20-validators account. Is this a flag/or the kind of trick where validators+malicious setups are keep going?
The 20+ validator account may be a staking pool that this owner is participating in. Are there many other transfer from other wallets to that same 20-val wallet? Do those other wallets also have hotspots that show evidence of gaming? Given the number of validators, it seems incredibly expensive (this is by design) for someone to stake enough validators to help with gaming, 20 isn't going to do it, 100 isn't going to do it.
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Hi there I had serious problem
19:29
I need your help 😦
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Accordingly to the behaviour of the people who work on or implemented the denylist the only legitimate hotspots are those with indoors antenas that make less than 0.1 HNT per day. There were many times when they could agreed with manufacturers and have GPS installed or USB attached to the hotspots or any other technical solution. I guess they wanted this entropic situation in purpose. I am wondering if the Validators' hotspots are on denylist cause definetely they were targeted. Many legitimate hotspots were added on denylist and not only by mistake but also from rudeness and envy. Greetings to those with power to decide if a hotspots technically qualifies to be added to denylist. The lowest quality in a "specialist" is the level of incompetency. Usually the incompetent people do not evolve out of that state, very few manage to dig themselves out. Often the incompetent "specialist wann be" are the unfair people, they were always frustrated in their life and always tried to accede to positions they cannot handle. This is how many things well started as great ideas get destroyed easily. The denyllist creates more damage than if it did not exist, just because of wrong implementation. For weeks they did not solve the banned hotspots , in a way or another, because they don't want to which makes it unfair. The People's Network became similar in fairness with tthe Peoples Republic of China. Bad habits die hard , they are ebedded in DNA, no matter where you go you take them with you and are fully or partially hereditary. (edited)
peepoclown 3
facepalm 1
👎 1
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Harrison
Hi there I had serious problem
First, do NOT give your twelve word phrase to anyone in DM. Anyone in DM claiming to be "support" is scamming you. If this is about the denylist, then go ahead and give details here. If it's about something else, try #general , #questions-and-answers , or if it is hotspot related, #hotspot-help (edited)
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Kay - Cosmos IoT
I’m doing already. But in my opinion is it the responsibility of the Helium Foundation. Maybe they hire the volunteers and pay them in HNT for doing there work.
Good idea! A project that raised several $100M could spare a few bucks to fight cheaters on its network. It's sad to see the network exploits getting bigger. I remember the max 24h earnings were 2,something earlier this year
🤦‍♂️ 2
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
03:43
on denylist but 0,5 in one day
03:44
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
03:44
on deny, but work
03:44
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
03:44
but work
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
08:19
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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lol, those RSSI/SNR values
11:22
did you create an issue?
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Look at this I sent beacon this morning and all 14 witness arw on deny list but earning
12:46
How the fk they intercept my beacon?
12:46
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bluey14
How the fk they intercept my beacon?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 3:24 PM
The denylist doesn't stop them from witnessing...
15:27
Just stops them from getting paid if the Challenger is using the denylist.
💯 1
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
17:30
Is this the data of the machine added to Denylist
17:32
We still don't know why this is happening
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Machines that are added to denylist, don't show up on the map, and then make a lot of HNT, who is helping them? Who designed it not to show?
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Hart
Machines that are added to denylist, don't show up on the map, and then make a lot of HNT, who is helping them? Who designed it not to show?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 6:13 PM
No one is helping them. Looks like an old bug. Report it in #explorer
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SiamParagon 04/05/2022 9:40 PM
Hotspot b58 Addresses Raspy Ginger Raven Dapper Mustard Jay Mean Obsidian Beaver Quaint Brunette Pig Shambolic Butter Opossum Skinny Candy Gazelle Powerful Pistachio Giraffe Lucky White Jay Radiant...
21:42
so funny, someone starts to threaten others by "report" now.
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what is your age ? 13 ?
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Will Pisces/PanterX/Hummingbird be investigated like done for the Deeper selfwitnessing hotspots? And will selfwitnessing clusters of those makers be put to the denylist as well like done for Deeper? https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/2896#issuecomment-1086391847
All Deepers globally (9963 miners - 8 not gaming) Closes #2897 Others in respective issues: Closes #1595 Closes #2885 Closes #2886 Closes #2861 Closes #2867 Closes #2868 Closes #2869 Closes #2871 C...
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@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) With HIP40 the witnesses will still be recorded on chain but a tag (denied or similar) will be added. This is much more transparent than the 'missing witnesses' the current system comes down to.
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groot
@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) With HIP40 the witnesses will still be recorded on chain but a tag (denied or similar) will be added. This is much more transparent than the 'missing witnesses' the current system comes down to.
Won't there also be multiple denylist in which validators need to be in consensus regarding a hotspot?
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groot
@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) With HIP40 the witnesses will still be recorded on chain but a tag (denied or similar) will be added. This is much more transparent than the 'missing witnesses' the current system comes down to.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/06/2022 11:01 AM
TY, so there is some additional benefits with hip40, above what hip55 does.
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HIP40 brings it back into the open, where it should be. As far as I understood there needs to be consensus about denying a witness, yes.
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ricopt5
Won't there also be multiple denylist in which validators need to be in consensus regarding a hotspot?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/06/2022 11:03 AM
Yep, a validator can choose from many (hopefully) deny lists, or choose to not use one at all
11:04
They don't have to use the same list, just as long as they agree the hotspot should be banned.
11:05
In theory you may find the same hotspot on many lists, depending how each is selecting hotspots for deny , I'm sure they'll be some overlap
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yep, a validator can choose from many (hopefully) deny lists, or choose to not use one at all
Whats happen if a group of validators works together with cheaters ?
😂 1
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Jose79
Whats happen if a group of validators works together with cheaters ?
feuerkralle2011 04/06/2022 12:32 PM
Depending on the amount of validators... if they aren't enough they will get slashed because they tried to build a wrong block
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just check new reports on the denylist ..
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feuerkralle2011 04/06/2022 12:33 PM
You would need a decent amount of validators to attack the network
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Jose79
Whats happen if a group of validators works together with cheaters ?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/06/2022 12:35 PM
By a group you'd need to control most validators to game it
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Jose79
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/3115 take a look what doing this people
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/06/2022 12:42 PM
I don't manage the deny list, just a community member who helped push the hip40 proposal through
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Jose79
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/3115 take a look what doing this people
feuerkralle2011 04/06/2022 12:43 PM
We currently have more then 3.500 validators. With the stated 20 validators behind that gaming action you only achieve 0.57% of the network. Not enough to attack the network
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#2737 jolly carob locust. I have opened An issue for jolly carob locust. It is my miner, outdoor risinghf with 2dbi antenne. I dont know why i am denied. Does someone know this? And how long will it takes for Helium to check my issue?
12:55
It is 12 days ago that is opened the issue.
12:55
Hotspot Name Jolly-Carob-Locust Hotspot b58 Address 112pG57HVJGeRAnx4KeCtGXnBfM8xFSfQFhbrPnLQDy4Y49Z4igQ Discord Handle Overgaauw#6893 Hotspot Manufacturer Risinghf Removal Reason I did nothing wro...
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feuerkralle2011
We currently have more then 3.500 validators. With the stated 20 validators behind that gaming action you only achieve 0.57% of the network. Not enough to attack the network
then I shouldn't worry about that... I guess it's normal for it to happen right?
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Jose79
then I shouldn't worry about that... I guess it's normal for it to happen right?
feuerkralle2011 04/06/2022 12:59 PM
Yeah dont worry about it as long as it stays so low. There will always be black sheeps
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feuerkralle2011
Yeah dont worry about it as long as it stays so low. There will always be black sheeps
yeah , a big farm , the size of the islands ..... full of black sheeps farming and earnig money hahahahaha
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Jose79
yeah , a big farm , the size of the islands ..... full of black sheeps farming and earnig money hahahahaha
feuerkralle2011 04/06/2022 1:07 PM
Still they are only a small part of the network
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feuerkralle2011
Still they are only a small part of the network
why just delete the hip 40? its pointless
facepalm 2
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Jose79
why just delete the hip 40? its pointless
feuerkralle2011 04/06/2022 1:19 PM
This proposal can redefine how the denylist works. We could allow validators to have their own denylist and they could decide on who is at fault so we no longer need a committee
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feuerkralle2011
This proposal can redefine how the denylist works. We could allow validators to have their own denylist and they could decide on who is at fault so we no longer need a committee
this makes me think, Helium bans small "farmers" and protect big ones? I'm going to do a social experiment with helium, It will be very simple, I will put 3 miners on a balcony and wait... who is banned first. the three mine or the farm of 600 miners with 10 months old.. this will make the community angry, maybe the community will start disconnecting-connecting their miners for days, as a protest against helium...
👎 2
facepalm 1
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Jose79
this makes me think, Helium bans small "farmers" and protect big ones? I'm going to do a social experiment with helium, It will be very simple, I will put 3 miners on a balcony and wait... who is banned first. the three mine or the farm of 600 miners with 10 months old.. this will make the community angry, maybe the community will start disconnecting-connecting their miners for days, as a protest against helium...
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 1:09 AM
Why would Helium ban small farmers and protect big ones? Each and every false ban results in devaluation of the network and makes them loose more then they would earn longterm
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Jose79
this makes me think, Helium bans small "farmers" and protect big ones? I'm going to do a social experiment with helium, It will be very simple, I will put 3 miners on a balcony and wait... who is banned first. the three mine or the farm of 600 miners with 10 months old.. this will make the community angry, maybe the community will start disconnecting-connecting their miners for days, as a protest against helium...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 6:03 AM
If you think 3 miners on a balcony would trigger a ban, you don't understand what gaming is.
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johnson1872022 04/07/2022 6:58 AM
Small "farmers" have poor cheating skills, easy to catch.
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Does anybody in charge of the denylist read these posts ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/07/2022 4:17 PM
You're talking in the hip40 room (edited)
16:17
This hip isn't live yet
16:17
So anything not related is usually ignored here
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CSA_Mahone
Does anybody in charge of the denylist read these posts ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/07/2022 4:28 PM
#poc-discussion Would be a better place at the moment 🙂
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I got a response on my denylist ticket "It is recommended that you use map positioning to prove that it is not a game hotspot." Anyone knows what exactly i need to provide ?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
#poc-discussion Would be a better place at the moment 🙂
Maybe there should be a separate channel to discuss the blacklists
👍 4
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Testa
Maybe there should be a separate channel to discuss the blacklists
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 8:44 AM
Would be helpful :)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you think 3 miners on a balcony would trigger a ban, you don't understand what gaming is.
neither 1500 fake hotspots and 20 validators are enough for trigger a ban either .
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Jose79
neither 1500 fake hotspots and 20 validators are enough for trigger a ban either .
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 11:08 AM
Get out of here with that FUD. (edited)
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Can we put validators on the denylist?
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If the tip gets hot spots denylist, we can blackmail anyone's HNT
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hangjghnv
If the tip gets hot spots denylist, we can blackmail anyone's HNT
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/09/2022 12:27 AM
Well then good thing everything is reviewed
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JoeCrypto
Can we put validators on the denylist?
The current denylist mechanism and the HIP40 proposal are all about PoC rewards, so that won't help. If you have a concern about validators and a mechanism to block them, that's worthy of a HIP and a separate discussion. In case this sounds dismissive, I do NOT mean it that way. Cheating validators would be a very big deal we should try and stop and I'm curious what the attack is you're worried about that isn't handled by the existing consensus protocol validators run. (edited)
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hi all, can I ask why this mechanis work at hotspot level and not wallet one?
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valeek
hi all, can I ask why this mechanis work at hotspot level and not wallet one?
The hotspot is the thing that can be identified as behaving incorrectly. Or do you mean, "if a wallet has a single denied hotspot block all transactions for that wallet"? (edited)
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krby
The hotspot is the thing that can be identified as behaving incorrectly. Or do you mean, "if a wallet has a single denied hotspot block all transactions for that wallet"? (edited)
I mean if an hotspot has been tagged as cheater, why other hotpost in the same wallet should be trusted? (edited)
11:09
11:09
in the same wallet of Blurry Green Porcupine hotspot, there are other 2 hotspot that perform the same cheat
11:11
I think it more reasonable to life ban the wallet address once at least 1 hotspot is tagged as cheater: the hotspot are the evidence, the problem are the cheater peoples. why we should keep inside the network such a collaborators?
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To me, blocking at the hotspot level is "safer', but agree that if I was running a denylist I would look at all hotspot in a wallet closely.
💯 1
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as far as I understood block is not permanent, could be easily removed from github
11:13
moreover I have another question: is it correct that the control if an hotspot can\not can be witnesses is made on the hotspot? and the list is locally downloaded on the hotspot and the responsable for this is each maker? (edited)
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valeek
moreover I have another question: is it correct that the control if an hotspot can\not can be witnesses is made on the hotspot? and the list is locally downloaded on the hotspot and the responsable for this is each maker? (edited)
yes
16:40
and not all makers participate, or maintain the denylist consistently
16:41
thats why hotspots on the denylist can still earn some, there wil always be some other hotspots that will talk to them
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BiggieJohn
thats why hotspots on the denylist can still earn some, there wil always be some other hotspots that will talk to them
wow...I dont wanna to be rude... but who deisgned the architecture of this anti cheat feature?!? its not very useful neither scalable... why no one took example from public/private certification authority crl mechanism?? why reinvent the wheel?!??
23:24
hotspot should query an online well trusted central maintened denylist to be aware which wallet (not hotspot) are in deny list and then take action if they are
23:24
see certificate revocation list
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valeek
see certificate revocation list
See 'decentralization'
kek 2
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groot
See 'decentralization'
whats the matter? the list could be hosted on github as it is now
23:48
please details it
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HIP40 is to get rid of the current list and move to the decentralized solution that was always meant to replace it. Besides, current miners already download the 'revocation list' every 6 hours so I don't even see how your system differs from the current (to be replaced) system.
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so the actual need for the hotspot to download denylist csv will be replaced by hip40 ?
23:54
basically hip40 moves the list from the hotspot to the validator? is it correct?
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bit of an oversimplification, but yes.
👍 1
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and it will work at hotspot level (same as now?)
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valeek
I think it more reasonable to life ban the wallet address once at least 1 hotspot is tagged as cheater: the hotspot are the evidence, the problem are the cheater peoples. why we should keep inside the network such a collaborators?
what do you think about?
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valeek
and it will work at hotspot level (same as now?)
Up to the list creator
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Hi guys! It's been over 2 months since my miner was added to the denylist. I've been trying to get removed from it by making issues en searching for anwser on DC, Reddit, Github etc... I really need the community to have a look at my issue and comment accordingly on Github. Thanks in advance! -> https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2239
Hotspot Name Sour Blood Deer Hotspot b58 Address 11mfacvSSKYdxWCgwDyfuuEGSv8Lo9YkQyKNS7aqisha7paFvg8 Discord Handle Toxar#5466 Hotspot Manufacturer Sensecap M1 Removal Reason As far as I know, I ha...
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Toxar
Hi guys! It's been over 2 months since my miner was added to the denylist. I've been trying to get removed from it by making issues en searching for anwser on DC, Reddit, Github etc... I really need the community to have a look at my issue and comment accordingly on Github. Thanks in advance! -> https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2239
NL_Miniterror_NL 04/11/2022 2:22 AM
To be fair i think you are screwed, i havent looked at the data but it sorta seems the denylist is 'dead' in maintenance. There was one group of volunteers doing work on it but apparantly they got threatened in reall life by people who got placed ok the denylist wich made them decide to stop. Helium/Nova stated they would do quick updates but its not looking like they are doing that. Also the mentioned tools they spoke about are still something not public afaik.
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Well If that's the case, and no one is updating the list anymore, they should have cleared everybody from the list. There most be something or someone to reach out to?
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/11/2022 2:26 AM
Helium/nova but they are busy on the 'light' hotspot migration
02:27
So i dont think they have much attention for the current implementation of the denylist (edited)
02:27
Also not sure what the status for HIP40 is, maybe BFGNeil could tell something about that
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/11/2022 2:27 AM
Just waiting on some finalisation but will be voted on
02:28
I know I keep saying soon but.... (edited)
02:29
And those new tools you mention are on the way
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/11/2022 2:31 AM
So everything still in the open and no specific dates. Thx for the update. As for Toxar, as stated, i think you are screwed if the spot is actually legit, not gonna look at the data and make a verdict about that, just general info i want to share on your comment as i think it would be unanswered otherwhise (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I know I keep saying soon but.... (edited)
It's like the boy who cried wolf, after a while nobody believes him anymore. Lucky for us at the end of the story the wolf really does come.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/11/2022 2:31 AM
Yep lol
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Guess I need to be even more patient,.....it's painfull really, trying to be a legit participant of PoC but have 0 control over it.....
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Toxar
Guess I need to be even more patient,.....it's painfull really, trying to be a legit participant of PoC but have 0 control over it.....
NL_Miniterror_NL 04/11/2022 2:32 AM
Think your best bet is to buy a new miner and attach that or something
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/11/2022 2:32 AM
Now 58 is voted
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/11/2022 2:32 AM
Only you can decide if thats worth it for you
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/11/2022 2:32 AM
I think 40 is next/after the next
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40 pretty much required for things like 57 so 40 next?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I think 40 is next/after the next
NL_Miniterror_NL 04/11/2022 2:33 AM
Why cant they be togheter, happened before there been 2 votes at the same time
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Why cant they be togheter, happened before there been 2 votes at the same time
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/11/2022 2:33 AM
Not sure! Joey did mention doing them all at once
02:33
I guess the feel was it was too much all at the same time
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Only you can decide if thats worth it for you
I have a syncrobit coming in soon hopefully,.. ordered it 7th of may in 2021 😦
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That would be my 4th and final location and miner, but perhaps i have to stick with 4.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/11/2022 3:08 AM
That is something only you can decide.
03:10
I have locations but personally decided it aint worth it to ME anymore to buy complete setups and get on the roofs and stuff like that. But others might think different and are still building setups, so do not go of on my decision and make your own if you think its worth it
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11i8X1BepbbtprqkJNjtgP75znjTYxYimfyUqP4jbfEYm6ruU6c games
07:43
15hnt every day
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Toxar
Hi guys! It's been over 2 months since my miner was added to the denylist. I've been trying to get removed from it by making issues en searching for anwser on DC, Reddit, Github etc... I really need the community to have a look at my issue and comment accordingly on Github. Thanks in advance! -> https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2239
My hotspot is also on the denylist for 3 months, I tried to take pictures, but no one took care of it. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Get out of here with that FUD. (edited)
I expected that answer from you, Mr blindman
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Does it even make sense to have a vote? currently there is not 1 blacklist that is working
12:29
the one on github is DoS'd and there were around 20 additions in the past week?
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Testa
Does it even make sense to have a vote? currently there is not 1 blacklist that is working
because its not a blacklist, it doeesnt brick the suspect hotspot, thats not how its designed to work (edited)
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Testa
Does it even make sense to have a vote? currently there is not 1 blacklist that is working
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/12/2022 12:50 PM
It's not a blacklist. It's a denylist.
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You can call it what you want.. it does not change the fact that it is not working
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Testa
You can call it what you want.. it does not change the fact that it is not working
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/12/2022 12:54 PM
Why do you say it's not working?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I think 40 is next/after the next
📣 Updated draft of HIP 40 https://heliumfoundation.notion.site/v3-Distributed-Denylist-Framework-Spec-f5e873270c6247cba1c15997e3eb7dfb I'd love to get comments on this doc before I migrate/merge into the HIPs repo. (edited)
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Validator operators should expect to update their sys.config files to include at least one denylist.
Is it awful to offer a default? For the non-big operators running via Docker or PaulM's deb package, this opt-in approach is not likely to get much traction. Based on experience talking to folks in in validator , many of these folks are very hands off. I guess that default gets too much power then, so better to not have one at all. One the one hand, any defaulted list gets outsized power. One the other, having at least one list as a default ensures SOME denylist is likely to be active.
19:02
@Joey changing the sys.config file as part of this is no-big deal, I think it is rare for folks running from Docker to muck with their sys.config, they all just run the default in the container. In fact, I would bet nearly all "small time" validator operators are not using custom sys.config files.
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Docker 😢
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For those of us that are customizing we have weathered changes before, you just get used to applying your own customizations somehow (I use ansible to deploy my stuff and make ansible do the find-replace work) (edited)
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I would definitely prefer to shape this HIP to ship with at least the Nova denylist. It's not beyond me that the default could end up being the only effective list if not enough operators pay attention.
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My thought on it: The least disruptive/chaotic approach would be to have the then-current denylist as a default - that way, a community-vetted denylist that has been in operation for months would be used as the starting point, and validators can then of course add/remove subscriptions, including that one
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So the question shouldn't be "are we ok with mucking with sys.config", yes you should be. The question is the default the right result? (edited)
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I argue yes. Shipping an opinionated default is better than [possibly] dropping the denylist all together at this point. (edited)
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Digerati
My thought on it: The least disruptive/chaotic approach would be to have the then-current denylist as a default - that way, a community-vetted denylist that has been in operation for months would be used as the starting point, and validators can then of course add/remove subscriptions, including that one
Ya, my knee-jerk reaction to this was "no way!" But after writing a few sentences on it, I think the successor to the current Nova deny list is the right thing. It is: a) principal of least surprise. The current list is the way of the world now b) making it a default means we are more likely to get a deny list of some sort even if few val operators take explicit action.
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19:08
I assume (and @Joey 's draft says) that StakeJoy and similar sized operators will be making their own choices, so it's not like the Nova list is a slam dunk to be the only choice. SJ has a significant portion of the current validator fleet.
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Yep, Jerm has reached out to SJ & Argon so far to confirm that they're comfortable setting a denylist.
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One thing to add to the FAQ maybe? 1) Will my validator be penalized if I don't vote for a particular hotspot but the rest of the CG does? No. You say this earlier in the doc, but if feels like a thing Val operators may want spelled out.
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btw writing HIPs in Notion is soooo much better than PRing changes into GitHub
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It would be nice for the denylists config to sit outside of sys.config. I have to think about alternatives; however, my concern with sys.config is that it is overwritten with each release and must be actively replaced and maintained. If there could be a separate denylist config file that remains stable (not overwritten), I think that would be better. And maybe sys.config is used for the default if the file is not found
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Is there a plan to review and remove hotspots that have been on denylist for more than 3 months?
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Joey
I argue yes. Shipping an opinionated default is better than [possibly] dropping the denylist all together at this point. (edited)
The validator sw currently has an 'override or default' approach to the configuration, however one could also opt for an approach in which the validator sw doesn't start unless you either choose not to use any list or choose the lists you want. This prevents the need for some default list while still enforcing operators to think about it. Not sure how this would work in the sw, just a hypothetical.
22:26
One point to note: in the Drawbacks section it is noted that "all Validators in consensus must agree to deny earnings" while this is strictly true I think it should be clarified that this is the majority of the consensus group as well clarify that a majority in consensus is not 51%. (At least what I understood from hashc0de was that consensus was required (2F + 1)) (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/12/2022 11:20 PM
From memory we couldn't add a default as it would be a centralised choice, the operators had to add it to choose to support the decentralisation of the project and "affirming" their choice to use hip40
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I was also under the impression that HIP40 outlined a specification, a framework for denylists. When you add a default it basically becomes a HIP for the implementation of the centralized denylist instead of the framework.
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Joey
📣 Updated draft of HIP 40 https://heliumfoundation.notion.site/v3-Distributed-Denylist-Framework-Spec-f5e873270c6247cba1c15997e3eb7dfb I'd love to get comments on this doc before I migrate/merge into the HIPs repo. (edited)
Thinking of non english readers change"By denying HNT to dishonest Hotspots, that HNT is disbursed to the community." to "By denying HNT to dishonest Hotspots, that HNT is shared amongst honest Hotspots."
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
From memory we couldn't add a default as it would be a centralised choice, the operators had to add it to choose to support the decentralisation of the project and "affirming" their choice to use hip40
What about a way of adding a "popup" question in new versions of the validator code install that ask the operator if they want to subscribe to a list if one is not present, or continue using, replace or add if it finds one. That way its still operator choice but could be zero admin. (edited)
02:53
And if it asks on every release of new code its a constant confirmation of choice.
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Joey
📣 Updated draft of HIP 40 https://heliumfoundation.notion.site/v3-Distributed-Denylist-Framework-Spec-f5e873270c6247cba1c15997e3eb7dfb I'd love to get comments on this doc before I migrate/merge into the HIPs repo. (edited)
Im confused by definition in two places. if all Validators need to agree to deny or a majority, and with a 43 consensus are 22 validators needed to deny to be denied? ## Drawbacks - Since all Validators in consensus must agree to deny earnings .... & What if a Validator blocks all but their own Hotspots? In order to effectively block any transaction, a majority of Validators in a consensus ....
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waveform
Im confused by definition in two places. if all Validators need to agree to deny or a majority, and with a 43 consensus are 22 validators needed to deny to be denied? ## Drawbacks - Since all Validators in consensus must agree to deny earnings .... & What if a Validator blocks all but their own Hotspots? In order to effectively block any transaction, a majority of Validators in a consensus ....
As little as 2F + 1 of the 3F+1 'consensus group' can be 'in consensus', so if the majority of the validators 'in consensus' should agree it can be as little as 1F + 1? Obviously not what is meant and as far as I know you need 2F + 1, more than just majority.
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groot
As little as 2F + 1 of the 3F+1 'consensus group' can be 'in consensus', so if the majority of the validators 'in consensus' should agree it can be as little as 1F + 1? Obviously not what is meant and as far as I know you need 2F + 1, more than just majority.
Yeah we need an example. If 43 validators then 2F+1 means x validators need to agree to deny a hotspot.
04:20
Otherwise its just viewed as obscurification and more conspiracy generating.
04:21
But I do like the chart
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waveform
But I do like the chart
Don't think the chart is correct though, since it centers around 50%. With 2F+1 you would need approx 66% to get to 50% right?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why do you say it's not working?
There are no more real updates and the issue list is DoS'd
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waveform
Yeah we need an example. If 43 validators then 2F+1 means x validators need to agree to deny a hotspot.
Agree with this. +1000. I assumed it was 2/3rds + 1 of the CG size, like the rest of the consensus protocol. Spelling it out is important prior to a vote.
07:36
Also @PaulM brings up an important point about a separate denylist config flie that I'm embarrassed I didn't think of last night. sys.config is rewritten by every install, docker or source. There is no "overlay" mechanism that let's me override JUST the parts I want, I have to maintain my own full copy, or manage a mechanism to edit sys.config as part of rollout, which is beyond many operators.
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Testa
There are no more real updates and the issue list is DoS'd
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/13/2022 10:12 AM
lol No, but ok.
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I have given it some thought and I still believe that any on-by-default list, whether that is the Nova list or some different list, undermines much if not all of the work done to create a decentralized framework for denylists with HIP40. (edited)
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"This proposal will not define the specifics of what “gaming” is. Helium Foundation’s role is to provide a framework for community led decision-making and implementation. How “gaming” is defined is left to denylist operators, members of the Helium Community, and ultimately choice of inclusion by Validators. The Helium Foundation has not and will never run its own denylist out of the interest of decentralization." This is inconsistent with "At point of release, bundled deploys (Docker) would be updated to include at least the existing Nova-operated denylist.". In my opinion the defaulting of a list published by an entity historically closely related to the Helium Foundation undermines the tone as well as the goal of creating a decentralized framwork. People might wholeheartedly agree with the framework while opposing the specific list that is defaulted here. This makes it a package deal which should, in my opinion, be avoided in the interest of decentralization. In my opinion this HIP should be strictly about the framework without pushing through a default list. (edited)
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Have I understood the chart correctly that unless over 40% of validators use 'the' deny list, 'the' deny list is effectively useless, and it really requires over 60% using 'it' for 'it' to have its intended effect? (I realise it's more complicated with multiple deny lists but keeping it simple to start with). And if I understand groot's point the % actually needs to be even higher than shown in the chart? If so, what are the reliable estimates of the % of validators who ARE likely to use 'the' denylist? This seems like a very significant risk that is not well accounted for in the HIP as drafted. Other than the surprising suggestion that if validators don't use a denylist this would show one is not needed. I.e. this HIP carries the significant risk that no deny list will be used at all in a significant % of cases. How is this risk addressed?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/13/2022 1:16 PM
they dont have to use the same deny list
13:16
just agree that the hotspot is on the list
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
just agree that the hotspot is on the list
Yes, but the point is the same I think?
13:25
I have no idea about this % who might use, does anyone have a good idea? I note "For the non-big operators running via Docker or PaulM's deb package, this opt-in approach is not likely to get much traction. Based on experience talking to folks in in validator , many of these folks are very hands off" which would seem to me no-one really knows, but an estimate might be 'maybe not a lot'.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/13/2022 1:56 PM
I mean, I'm not sure anyone can predict the future but its the only way to get a decentralised deny list going
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At this point I don't care much how a deny or ban-list is implemented, as long as it's done. Cheaters have all power now. Rewards for honest miners are absolutely terrible (0,01 - 0,09 HNT with great locations, height, external antenna). Feels like a complete waste of time and money to participate in the current network
14:32
With a working deny-list the rewards were 4x better
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I mean, I'm not sure anyone can predict the future but its the only way to get a decentralised deny list going
So to be clear, you don't know whether even 40% of validators would use any deny list? Isn't that a problem with this proposal?
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It's a subtle difference but an important one; It doesn't matter if a percentage of validators subscribe to a particular list - just that enough of them have the particular hotspot in the lists that they subscribe to.
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Joey
It's a subtle difference but an important one; It doesn't matter if a percentage of validators subscribe to a particular list - just that enough of them have the particular hotspot in the lists that they subscribe to.
I'm afraid my lack of knowledge on this topic means I don't understand how this subtle difference is relevant to the point I was making. If only 40% of validators use ANY list at all, why does it matter whether an HS appears on 1 or many lists - it's all effectively useless isn't it? And so far it appears no-one has any good idea what % of validators would use any list at all? Let alone a 'good' one. How does this HIP address the risk that the denylist becomes neutered?
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We've already spoken to two VaaS operators who account for a sizable amount (well over 35%) of the validator pool. They intend to adopt a denylist day-one.
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Joey
We've already spoken to two VaaS operators who account for a sizable amount (well over 35%) of the validator pool. They intend to adopt a denylist day-one.
Sounds good. But what about the other 35%? I belive krby's point related to the 'non-big' operators who were more hands-off? And what if one or both VaaS change their mind? Also, if 2 operators control 35% of the validators isn't that a problem for decentralising the denylist choice?
19:50
A reader gets the impression (and please correct me) from the Summary and Motivation section that the primary goal of this HIP is to decentralise the denylist choice, in line with a general principle; 'Credible decentralization ensures that no one entity can control the network'.
19:50
But isn't the deny list choice already decentralised? The denylist choice is already devolved to the makers? (and to some extent to HS hackers...) Makers can already choose not to use the denylist and presumably could choose to implement a different one if it existed? I.e. if a primary goal of the HIP is to remove the choice of denylist from 'one entity' then this has already been achieved? One could argue that the HIP proposes a better form of decentralisation, but the HIP doesn't attempt this comparison? (edited)
19:50
So should the HIP make it clearer that it isn't about achieving decentralisation for the denylist, but about achieving a 'better' decentralisation, and then justifying why its proposal is better than the current version? If 2 VaaS operators control 35% of the validators that starts to sound not much different to the maker %s? I.e. does this HIP make the denylist choice LESS decentralised?
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Post Light Hotspots, the denylist cannot run on the hotspot and must move to Validators.
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Joey
Post Light Hotspots, the denylist cannot run on the hotspot and must move to Validators.
Yes, there had been some uncertainly on Discord about what was happening here So are you confirming that in 2 weeks' time you are rolling the dice on whether the denylist ceases to be effective overnight? In that you've got 35% hopefully in the bag, but the rest is unknown?
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Sorry its been a full day so just trying to parse all that you're laying out. I can't tell if you're arguing that there just need to be some words changed or that you think this HIP leads to a more centralized methodology than Nova Labs shipping a denylist to hotspot mfgrs (edited)
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KXI
Yes, there had been some uncertainly on Discord about what was happening here So are you confirming that in 2 weeks' time you are rolling the dice on whether the denylist ceases to be effective overnight? In that you've got 35% hopefully in the bag, but the rest is unknown?
getting more than 35% can be handled either through messaging to validator operators (their vals will stop working if they don't upgrade anyway) or by just setting a default inclusion in the builds.
19:57
(or both)
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Joey
getting more than 35% can be handled either through messaging to validator operators (their vals will stop working if they don't upgrade anyway) or by just setting a default inclusion in the builds.
To be clear, are you saying you will be forcing validators to use the current denylist? At least for now?
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Not forcing.
19:59
if at least 50-70% of vals leverage the existing Nova denylist we're golden (edited)
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Joey
if at least 50-70% of vals leverage the existing Nova denylist we're golden (edited)
And if not, it's Miller time at Deeper HQ
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well play it out. If somehow there aren't enough validators subscribed and gaming flares up. Who do you yell at when you know validators have the ability to deny rewards for poc receipts? (edited)
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Joey
well play it out. If somehow there aren't enough validators subscribed and gaming flares up. Who do you yell at when you know validators have the ability to deny rewards for poc receipts? (edited)
Well that was candid. Thankyou
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Maybe it needs to be netflix time for me (edited)
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Joey
getting more than 35% can be handled either through messaging to validator operators (their vals will stop working if they don't upgrade anyway) or by just setting a default inclusion in the builds.
Setting a default, creating a package deal between the framework and Nova's list... Putting in a default is just as centralized as the current effort under the disguise of decentralized framework. While I understand that it is currently the only list and it will probably be included by many validators, forcing it is not decentralized at all. On the one hand the HIP states that it the validators will probably include it because it is in the best interest of the network and validators act in the best interest of the network, on the other hand we don't trust them enough to actually act in the best interest of the network to have a decentralized framework without shady package deals?
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What would you propose?
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Joey
What would you propose?
No default list, clearly communicate how to add Nova's list and possibly require a choice to either choose lists or no lists before startup of the validator.
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Noted. Seems reasonable
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When new lists do appear, show them similar to Nova's list, sort of like the browser screen that Microsoft was forced to implement. Should be made easy to pick lists while not requiring it. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
lol No, but ok.
less than 10 HS added in the last 10 days. 1.7k open issues and counting. that is simply not working. There was a lot of progress when CTH took care of it, not it is dead.
facepalm 1
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groot
I have given it some thought and I still believe that any on-by-default list, whether that is the Nova list or some different list, undermines much if not all of the work done to create a decentralized framework for denylists with HIP40. (edited)
I fully agree. If the governance works then there is no need for a default list.
23:00
having a default list just means there is no confidence that the governance will work. otherwise it would not be needed.
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23:01
the crucial element of HIP40 is that validators need to decide which lists are valid. if you add a default list (which is centralised too) you just stick to centralisation. No need for HIP 40 then, we can save the effort and stick to status quo,
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KXI
So should the HIP make it clearer that it isn't about achieving decentralisation for the denylist, but about achieving a 'better' decentralisation, and then justifying why its proposal is better than the current version? If 2 VaaS operators control 35% of the validators that starts to sound not much different to the maker %s? I.e. does this HIP make the denylist choice LESS decentralised?
that is a good point too. It is not the validator owner who decides, it is the validator operator. I don't think a validator (stake!) owner can verify which list is used? So there is no control, and it is in fact a step towards more centralisation.
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Testa
that is a good point too. It is not the validator owner who decides, it is the validator operator. I don't think a validator (stake!) owner can verify which list is used? So there is no control, and it is in fact a step towards more centralisation.
Definitely not "more towards" centralization, as the current list is completely centralized. More centralized than it could be, yes, but that is something the owners should figure out with their VaaS provider. (edited)
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groot
Definitely not "more towards" centralization, as the current list is completely centralized. More centralized than it could be, yes, but that is something the owners should figure out with their VaaS provider. (edited)
more towards uncontrolled centralisation then. it puts the power into the hands of a few validator operators without much stake.
23:14
with the current proposal a validator owner cannot see which list is used if I am not mistaken
23:14
so HIP40 has at least one fundamental flaw
23:15
the list could e.g. be applied using the wallet. that would solve that issue. and no default list obviously
23:15
but that is all an academic discussion, at the moment there is not one single list that is being actively maintained
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They are a customer of a VaaS providers, if they want more control than that VaaS can offer there are other providers. Can it be improved, definitely, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a fundamental flaw. What I find most important is that the validators have to actively choose their lists, as the whole HIP is based on the concept that the validators will choose correctly because they have the best interest of the network in mind. A default list does not fit into that picture and basically says 'decentralization is nice but we don't trust validators to make the correct decisions so let's centralize this'.
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groot
They are a customer of a VaaS providers, if they want more control than that VaaS can offer there are other providers. Can it be improved, definitely, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a fundamental flaw. What I find most important is that the validators have to actively choose their lists, as the whole HIP is based on the concept that the validators will choose correctly because they have the best interest of the network in mind. A default list does not fit into that picture and basically says 'decentralization is nice but we don't trust validators to make the correct decisions so let's centralize this'.
it is. if you make someone accountable (the validator owners) you have to give them the means to live up to that accountability. at the moment they do not have that. from a technical perspective, because they don't know how the validator is operated in detail (and there is no way, except e.g. auditing them), and from a feasibility perspective. how to know which black lists are operated in a fair fashion? you realistically can't cover all that effort with the rewards validator owners get. soon the interest rates will be higher than the staking yields, and that is without factoring in all that effort to live up to HIP40's expectation.
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Testa
it is. if you make someone accountable (the validator owners) you have to give them the means to live up to that accountability. at the moment they do not have that. from a technical perspective, because they don't know how the validator is operated in detail (and there is no way, except e.g. auditing them), and from a feasibility perspective. how to know which black lists are operated in a fair fashion? you realistically can't cover all that effort with the rewards validator owners get. soon the interest rates will be higher than the staking yields, and that is without factoring in all that effort to live up to HIP40's expectation.
I don't think we're giving the validator owners that accountability, we're giving it to the validator operators.
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Omer-xCasp3r 04/14/2022 12:48 AM
I actually dont find it right to assume/believe that validators will do what benefits the network just because they have staked HNT. Dont get me wrong, I’m not trying to offend all validators but even Makers (i.e. Deeper, maybe even Pantherx which is much much larger) had much more money staked in their own business and they didnt bother to support gaming. We also know that the staked HNT of some validators are coming from the earnings of gaming hotspots, maybe not enough to affect the denylist outcome, maybe enough, do we really know? I really hope everthing will go as “assumed” and a great majority of them will implement some well-build denylists.
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Omer-xCasp3r
I actually dont find it right to assume/believe that validators will do what benefits the network just because they have staked HNT. Dont get me wrong, I’m not trying to offend all validators but even Makers (i.e. Deeper, maybe even Pantherx which is much much larger) had much more money staked in their own business and they didnt bother to support gaming. We also know that the staked HNT of some validators are coming from the earnings of gaming hotspots, maybe not enough to affect the denylist outcome, maybe enough, do we really know? I really hope everthing will go as “assumed” and a great majority of them will implement some well-build denylists.
NL_Miniterror_NL 04/14/2022 1:06 AM
Im more worried that no one will actually create a list🧐
01:07
Hope im wrong ofcourse and some people will create some legit lists and do it in a proper manner it cant be tracked to them personally
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Im more worried that no one will actually create a list🧐
According to the HIP that would be fine, that would mean the network is in good shape. It seems some people are a little hesitant to actually embrace the decentralization they boast in public though. Boasting decentralization without trust that decentralization will do its job seems to be a common theme.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/14/2022 1:22 AM
I have a different view on that, not even sure if i like the decentralisation to be fair
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Just wait until someone takes away the toys, everyone will be for decentralization then.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/14/2022 1:27 AM
Not sure if i understand that analogy
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Not sure if i understand that analogy
Centralization is convenient when the central authority's views align with yours, not so much when they don't.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I have a different view on that, not even sure if i like the decentralisation to be fair
feuerkralle2011 04/14/2022 1:32 AM
I imagine the outcry if Nova would just turn down POC-Activity to 1 beacon every week 😄 Decentralisation is the main reason for any blockchain project. Every other project could just be written with default database backbones (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/14/2022 1:33 AM
Ahhh, well i dont fully follow the view of Nova either. This entire gaming situation seems out if control imo. Would rather see changes to PoC so gaming isnt possible any more Not sure how as im not technical on that front but i assume the devs could figure that out
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01:33
Then this entire scenario wouldnt be needed
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Doesn't change the fact that a decentralized framework for denylists shouldn't be a centralized denylist in disguise. I agree with you that changes to PoC to limit the potential gaming vectors are preferable to the eternal cat and mouse game though, very much so.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/14/2022 1:35 AM
I assume there are 'lessons learned' from other lorawan providers and this way of gaming with packet spoofing and PF's could have been predicted before even starting the project
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01:36
But trying to make it decentralised now so that the users can 'fix' there mistakes seems wrong imo
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I assume there are 'lessons learned' from other lorawan providers and this way of gaming with packet spoofing and PF's could have been predicted before even starting the project
It wasn't a problem at the start of the project, HIP15/17 and the free-for-all witnessing introduced it. The original multi-hop PoC didn't have the problem and was pretty secure.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 04/14/2022 1:36 AM
Im only in Helium since November 2021, so still a rooky
01:36
Dont know the old ways
01:37
But its a bit more global how i think about it, so not really fit for this channel i think so ill stop as i dont want to spam this channel with wrong info
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groot
I don't think we're giving the validator owners that accountability, we're giving it to the validator operators.
That is the issue, because the operators don't have a real stake
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Is there talks regarding panther X? Same person who had a bunch of deeper units who was put on the deny list is now back with panther units. Same layout just maybe a few hexes over to the left or right.
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groot
No default list, clearly communicate how to add Nova's list and possibly require a choice to either choose lists or no lists before startup of the validator.
Oooh! I like forcing "you must make a choice", but it's going to be a rough transition. We'll lose some folks for a bit. But, well no different that the required upgrades Validators have had in the past We expect validators to read #validators-announcements so this could be given fair warning there.
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Nofinesse
Is there talks regarding panther X? Same person who had a bunch of deeper units who was put on the deny list is now back with panther units. Same layout just maybe a few hexes over to the left or right.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/14/2022 5:42 AM
Panther are on the hitlist afaik
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krby
Oooh! I like forcing "you must make a choice", but it's going to be a rough transition. We'll lose some folks for a bit. But, well no different that the required upgrades Validators have had in the past We expect validators to read #validators-announcements so this could be given fair warning there.
May be rough indeed, but in my opinion part of running a validator is making sure you know what's going on and as long as ample time is given I don't see it as a problem. But full disclosure I'm not running a validator so I might be biased.
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Testa
it is. if you make someone accountable (the validator owners) you have to give them the means to live up to that accountability. at the moment they do not have that. from a technical perspective, because they don't know how the validator is operated in detail (and there is no way, except e.g. auditing them), and from a feasibility perspective. how to know which black lists are operated in a fair fashion? you realistically can't cover all that effort with the rewards validator owners get. soon the interest rates will be higher than the staking yields, and that is without factoring in all that effort to live up to HIP40's expectation.
The VaaS operators are accountable to their customers (the owners). If I feel I ask my operator about the denylist config and he tells me and I don't trust the answer for some reason? I move my stake somewhere else. Moving a validator is a pretty trivial operation. If I don't trust the operator on the deny list there are already many things wrong with the relationship. If I REALLY must verify it, I run a validator myself.
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groot
May be rough indeed, but in my opinion part of running a validator is making sure you know what's going on and as long as ample time is given I don't see it as a problem. But full disclosure I'm not running a validator so I might be biased.
I am and I feel exactly as you do (re responsibilities) just pointing out some folks will be caught out, because they always are. IMO, we have channels for "fair warning" for this type of change, and have used them before. Selfishly, the more validators that are stuck by this the higher my personal chances of getting in CG and earning more for a while! We've talked in the channel about something like a min 48-72hr notice for breaking updates. The idea is that if you can't get yourself updated in that amount of time, you're not being reactive enough to serve the network needs. So far, Nova has given more notice than that. Also, there's an opt-in "fire alarm" for val operators in case of a chain halt or something. I've got that notice set to bug me even if the phone is on do-not-disturb mode (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Panther are on the hitlist afaik
OptimusPrime 04/14/2022 6:05 AM
When they know they are on the hitlist, experienced institutional and individual cheaters will be extra careful about their gaming plans 😤
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@Joey Joey - re-summarising: 1 Brave new world Joey has clarified that when the switch is made to light hotspots (3-May), the choice of using or not using a deny list will move to the validators. As such this hip needs to be rewritten. Currently the hip talks about how this move COULD happen, and some of the pros and cons of this and a possible mechanism for it. After the switch this is a done deal. If the HIP is to be relevant, it should instead describe how it proposes to improve on the new world, which might mean it's easier to start from scratch. I'd imagine the community would prefer the new HIP version to focus on patching any gaming holes created by the switch. . (edited)
08:14
2 Goodbye denylist? As Joey has also clarified, a fundamental problem with moving the deny list choice to the validators is unless a 'significant' proportion use ANY deny list, then it ceases to work. No-one knows whether this will happen, so there is the real possibility that on 3 May, all Deeper hotspots will just start earning again. The draft HIP contains the suggestions that: a) This cannot happen since validators will act 'in the best interests of the network' and use a deny list, b) IF validators do choose not to use a denylist this proves one is not necessary. Unfortunately a) is clearly not necessarily true, and b) is contingent on a) being true. Joey has further clarified that the imagined mechanism to 'enforce' use of a deny list by validators is people online shouting at them. The die is cast, and it could all go pear-shaped shortly or anytime in future. This needs much better mitigation as it risks collapse of trust in the network. . (edited)
08:15
3 Aspects A re-written HIP should clearly differentiate the aspects. E.g. a) Where the deny list choice is made - with light hotspots this is a done deal by validators so no discussion is necessary b) The mechanism by which a deny list choice is made by the validator (mandatory, defaulted, incentivised via extra bread ration, etc) c) The mechanism by which deny lists are created, updated, distributed, etc. A new HIP version might focus on b? c might best be a separate HIP or no HIP at all? . (edited)
08:15
4 Decentralisation? The choice to use the denylist already was decentralised since it was under the control of each maker and to a lesser extent each HS hacker. Moving the choice to the validators is just a different kind of decentralisation. (As such the current draft HIP is misleading). Given 35% of the validators appear to be controlled by two operators, and AFAIK the identity and control of the remainder are likely largely unknown, it seems likely that moving the choice to the validators makes it less decentralised and less accountable than before. In a sense, this doesn't matter in that it now can't be changed, but if 'more' decentralisation is desired, there is something to do there. . (edited)
08:16
5 What is important now? At the risk of whataboutism. If you asked a random 100 members of the community what their top 5 improvements to the denylist process would be, I'd guess they would not include finessing the nature of the decentralisation, but instead be more operational like: a) have one, b) make it updated regularly, c) have automated mechanisms to flag obvious gaming HS early, d) keep it open, e) keep it accountable, f) make a fair and simple process for appealing it, g) protect the people working on it from harm and undue influence, h) protect it from abuse, i) enable the community to create high-quality reports, Etc .
08:16
One might say 'yeah tell us something we don't know', but the above are not currently all operational, not simple, not free, and it is not clear what is being done about it. Current examples: 1 CTH team recently flagged 18,000+ HS with good evidence of gaming - the status of these issues is unclear but presumably stalled. If we assume earning $2 per day (seems reasonable from a quick check) these HS will earn around $252,000 per week during the hiatus. E.g. the motherlode; https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/3027
08:17
2 Rumour has it the CTH team (who were doing a great job) have all quit due to IRL threats. There has been no public word that a) Helium has the team's back and threats against them will be pursued to the fullest extent available, b) Helium will be doing something to continue their good work 3 It took 3+ months to deny the 10,000 deeper HS network, despite obvious gaming from the outset 4 There are currently 1,680+ open issues. Granted many are likely spurious or duplicates, but very likely still large numbers of genuine cases .
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08:17
5 Some bright spark recently realised that flooding the denylist with junk requests is simple, and while not that effective in DDOS'ing, it does clutter things up and muddies the waters. 6 It appears as if there are (or at least were) no automated mechanisms being used to identify HS for the denylist. Despite some interesting investigation being done, it appears nothing is actually used. Who will deal with this? The market? The Helium Foundation looks like it is fiddling while Rome burns.
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krby
The VaaS operators are accountable to their customers (the owners). If I feel I ask my operator about the denylist config and he tells me and I don't trust the answer for some reason? I move my stake somewhere else. Moving a validator is a pretty trivial operation. If I don't trust the operator on the deny list there are already many things wrong with the relationship. If I REALLY must verify it, I run a validator myself.
With the current design you don't have to trust the operator. The operators habe therefore not been chosen because of trustwothyness.
facepalm 1
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Testa
With the current design you don't have to trust the operator. The operators habe therefore not been chosen because of trustwothyness.
The owner absolutely has to trust the operator. The operator's ability and trustworthy-ness affects the owner's earnings. For staking pools, the operator actually gets custody of the tokens, so it's even more trust required.
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KXI
5 Some bright spark recently realised that flooding the denylist with junk requests is simple, and while not that effective in DDOS'ing, it does clutter things up and muddies the waters. 6 It appears as if there are (or at least were) no automated mechanisms being used to identify HS for the denylist. Despite some interesting investigation being done, it appears nothing is actually used. Who will deal with this? The market? The Helium Foundation looks like it is fiddling while Rome burns.
Thanks for the great analysis and summary! It contains a lot of facts a few people don't like to see, but facts are facts. I only disagree in one point: the network has to trust the majority of validators. If the majority is acting malicious it is game over, by design. Therefore there is no need for a default denilyst.
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krby
The owner absolutely has to trust the operator. The operator's ability and trustworthy-ness affects the owner's earnings. For staking pools, the operator actually gets custody of the tokens, so it's even more trust required.
If the performance is not good you switch the operator. No trust needed. Worst case you make a bit less profit for a short period of time
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Testa
If the performance is not good you switch the operator. No trust needed. Worst case you make a bit less profit for a short period of time
and that's my point, if I don't think the operator is using a deny list and I want him to or I think he/she is lying about using one, I can just switch. It's the same mechanism (edited)
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KXI
5 Some bright spark recently realised that flooding the denylist with junk requests is simple, and while not that effective in DDOS'ing, it does clutter things up and muddies the waters. 6 It appears as if there are (or at least were) no automated mechanisms being used to identify HS for the denylist. Despite some interesting investigation being done, it appears nothing is actually used. Who will deal with this? The market? The Helium Foundation looks like it is fiddling while Rome burns.
Thanks for laying out all this. I like the approach to sort of "let's all get caught up on where we are right now"
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krby
and that's my point, if I don't think the operator is using a deny list and I want him to or I think he/she is lying about using one, I can just switch. It's the same mechanism (edited)
No there is at least one key difference: i immediately see if there is a penalty. There is no way to check which denilists are used though
08:35
.. and in the case of pools you cant even switch that easily..
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Testa
Thanks for the great analysis and summary! It contains a lot of facts a few people don't like to see, but facts are facts. I only disagree in one point: the network has to trust the majority of validators. If the majority is acting malicious it is game over, by design. Therefore there is no need for a default denilyst.
I think trusting the validators is not the same as assuming they will necessarily make additional effort to do something which they don't have to do, which you/we think is in the best interests of the network. One can trust them but think they might just not bother to make any choice, or just pick no deny list because they don't understand what that means, or some other reason. Or just assume the validator operator will just 'make the right choice'. (edited)
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KXI
I think trusting the validators is not the same as assuming they will necessarily make additional effort to do something which they don't have to do, which you/we think is in the best interests of the network. One can trust them but think they might just not bother to make any choice, or just pick no deny list because they don't understand what that means, or some other reason. Or just assume the validator operator will just 'make the right choice'. (edited)
The underlying assumption is that validators act in the interest of the network, because of the stake. As such they should decide which blacklists to use. Whether it is realistic to ask all validator owners to assess all denylists continously is another question. And there I agree with you, it is not realistic. It is a massive effort, and every owner has to do it. Without any additional compensation. That is the key flaw in HIP40 in my opinion. We push accountability away, away from a billion dollar company to people who do not have the means to fulfil the accountability.
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They do not have to assess all lists continuously, they have to pick lists that are created by a method or party they deem trustworthy. If that is too much to ask from a validator I don’t want that validator running a validator. Being a validator means you are putting yourself at the center of the networks well-being, if the burden of that weighs to heavy on you you should either use a VaaS or some staking provider.
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Testa
The underlying assumption is that validators act in the interest of the network, because of the stake. As such they should decide which blacklists to use. Whether it is realistic to ask all validator owners to assess all denylists continously is another question. And there I agree with you, it is not realistic. It is a massive effort, and every owner has to do it. Without any additional compensation. That is the key flaw in HIP40 in my opinion. We push accountability away, away from a billion dollar company to people who do not have the means to fulfil the accountability.
They key flaw about HIP40 is that so many people keep distracting from the HIP, which proposes a framework, by complaining about possible issues of governance.
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Testa
No there is at least one key difference: i immediately see if there is a penalty. There is no way to check which denilists are used though
In theory that would be true. But operators/owners of validators have been told that some penalties are unavoidable. My experience owning and operating backs this up. Penalities just happen and we don't have a good metric for what is "acceptable". So it requires some work (and trust in ability of the operator) to know if your operator is good enough or not. To me this feels identical to sensing whether the operator is lying about using a denylist. One proposal, a hotspot being denied could be written to the block along with all those in CG that voted to deny. If my val NEVER votesd to deny, that could be evidence a deny list is not being used?
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groot
They key flaw about HIP40 is that so many people keep distracting from the HIP, which proposes a framework, by complaining about possible issues of governance.
Not sure what you are trying to imply vut this conversation here has been mostly fact based. If you call facts you do not like a distraction that is your opinion, nothing more. Happy to discuss about facts, bot pointless accusations.
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groot
They do not have to assess all lists continuously, they have to pick lists that are created by a method or party they deem trustworthy. If that is too much to ask from a validator I don’t want that validator running a validator. Being a validator means you are putting yourself at the center of the networks well-being, if the burden of that weighs to heavy on you you should either use a VaaS or some staking provider.
You can't rely on a VaaS, because they don't have a stake. That was mentioned today already..
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krby
In theory that would be true. But operators/owners of validators have been told that some penalties are unavoidable. My experience owning and operating backs this up. Penalities just happen and we don't have a good metric for what is "acceptable". So it requires some work (and trust in ability of the operator) to know if your operator is good enough or not. To me this feels identical to sensing whether the operator is lying about using a denylist. One proposal, a hotspot being denied could be written to the block along with all those in CG that voted to deny. If my val NEVER votesd to deny, that could be evidence a deny list is not being used?
Yes, there must be some audit trail
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Testa
You can't rely on a VaaS, because they don't have a stake. That was mentioned today already..
Krby laid out where that argument is flawed and I for one agree with his assessment. I think most VaaS operators run their own validators too so they def have a stake.
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Testa
Not sure what you are trying to imply vut this conversation here has been mostly fact based. If you call facts you do not like a distraction that is your opinion, nothing more. Happy to discuss about facts, bot pointless accusations.
Strictly speaking anything arguments against HIP40 on the basis of errors in governance are offtopic so yes, I think the discussion of the framework is distracted by issues with the governance of the lists that are going to use the framework outlined in HIP40.
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groot
Krby laid out where that argument is flawed and I for one agree with his assessment. I think most VaaS operators run their own validators too so they def have a stake.
That is an assumption on your side and even if it was true the stake would be much smaller and not enforced, so not something you can rely on.
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KXI
5 What is important now? At the risk of whataboutism. If you asked a random 100 members of the community what their top 5 improvements to the denylist process would be, I'd guess they would not include finessing the nature of the decentralisation, but instead be more operational like: a) have one, b) make it updated regularly, c) have automated mechanisms to flag obvious gaming HS early, d) keep it open, e) keep it accountable, f) make a fair and simple process for appealing it, g) protect the people working on it from harm and undue influence, h) protect it from abuse, i) enable the community to create high-quality reports, Etc .
While people may not call for decentralization, every vote there are complaints about whales pushing the votes, the power of Nova and Foundation's huge HNT balances which are in fact, albeit implicit, calls for decentralization.
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groot
Strictly speaking anything arguments against HIP40 on the basis of errors in governance are offtopic so yes, I think the discussion of the framework is distracted by issues with the governance of the lists that are going to use the framework outlined in HIP40.
Read the conversation here. There is a lot more than that
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So do these two things help? 1) Don't give a default list. But force val operators to make a choice before the validator will run after this upgrade. Choosing zero or more lists explicitly. 2) Make all validator votes to deny a hotspot part of the chain, so anyone can inspect. Over time, we can see which individual validators are never voting to deny. Which lets owners confirm their operator is using a list or not.
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Testa
That is an assumption on your side and even if it was true the stake would be much smaller and not enforced, so not something you can rely on.
Not really, StakeJoy for example runs their own validators too, as well as 200 validators from Nova.
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groot
While people may not call for decentralization, every vote there are complaints about whales pushing the votes, the power of Nova and Foundation's huge HNT balances which are in fact, albeit implicit, calls for decentralization.
Decentralisation is great if it works but "dencentralising" a problem because it cant be solved centrally with millions of funding simply wont work
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groot
Not really, StakeJoy for example runs their own validators too, as well as 200 validators from Nova.
My point still stands ;). It is not enforced by design so you cant rely on it and the stake would be much smaller
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krby
So do these two things help? 1) Don't give a default list. But force val operators to make a choice before the validator will run after this upgrade. Choosing zero or more lists explicitly. 2) Make all validator votes to deny a hotspot part of the chain, so anyone can inspect. Over time, we can see which individual validators are never voting to deny. Which lets owners confirm their operator is using a list or not.
I think they would! But I am still not convinced it would work if even Nova cant maintain a denylist
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Testa
My point still stands ;). It is not enforced by design so you cant rely on it and the stake would be much smaller
Feels a bit like cherry picking that you can assume that validators won't do their due diligence and I'm called out on assumptions, but sure their stake will be less than their vote (based on operated vals).
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krby
So do these two things help? 1) Don't give a default list. But force val operators to make a choice before the validator will run after this upgrade. Choosing zero or more lists explicitly. 2) Make all validator votes to deny a hotspot part of the chain, so anyone can inspect. Over time, we can see which individual validators are never voting to deny. Which lets owners confirm their operator is using a list or not.
1) seems like a good way to ensure decentralization and 2) seems like a good way to provide the tools for accountability 👍
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Can consider handling denylist remove requests(not game hotspots)?😉
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groot
Feels a bit like cherry picking that you can assume that validators won't do their due diligence and I'm called out on assumptions, but sure their stake will be less than their vote (based on operated vals).
That is my opinion that validator operators wont habe the time to keep checking the lists and how these are maintained. It would either reduce the number of validators or lead to validators not caring about the denylists. Again, my forecast.
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Testa
That is my opinion that validator operators wont habe the time to keep checking the lists and how these are maintained. It would either reduce the number of validators or lead to validators not caring about the denylists. Again, my forecast.
If it reduces the amount of validators, so be it, you don't need 3500 anyway. If it leads to a subset of them not caring about it, a little more problematic for the avg hotspot owner. That is why I suggested forcing them to make a choice on lists on startup. (edited)
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groot
If it reduces the amount of validators, so be it, you don't need 3500 anyway. If it leads to a subset of them not caring about it, a little more problematic for the avg hotspot owner. That is why I suggested forcing them to make a choice on lists on startup. (edited)
Not "on every startup" though right? Just the initial upgrade to a post HIP-40 version of the validator software. Just making sure we're on the same page.
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krby
Not "on every startup" though right? Just the initial upgrade to a post HIP-40 version of the validator software. Just making sure we're on the same page.
Oh no of course not, that would be annoying 😂 My proposal would be to make it so that every validator operator would need to make an active decision on what to do, after that it is up to them. (edited)
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groot
Oh no of course not, that would be annoying 😂 My proposal would be to make it so that every validator operator would need to make an active decision on what to do, after that it is up to them. (edited)
I figured/hoped, but I got bit just this morning by a similar assumption with another eng and so I'm more aware of it right now.
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KXI
One might say 'yeah tell us something we don't know', but the above are not currently all operational, not simple, not free, and it is not clear what is being done about it. Current examples: 1 CTH team recently flagged 18,000+ HS with good evidence of gaming - the status of these issues is unclear but presumably stalled. If we assume earning $2 per day (seems reasonable from a quick check) these HS will earn around $252,000 per week during the hiatus. E.g. the motherlode; https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/3027
one big problem with CTH approach was to put thousands of hotspots into a single issue without showing how they arrived at those conclusions. There are a number of screenshots and some rssi graphs, but thats not enough to verify the accuracy and no one has time to manually go through 18k hotspots. Because of that, you run a huge risk of denylisting thousands of legitimate hotspots. I applaud their efforts, but it really needs to show the work so to speak.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 10:41 AM
I see no issue with a default denylist that has an opt-out for the validators.
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krby
So do these two things help? 1) Don't give a default list. But force val operators to make a choice before the validator will run after this upgrade. Choosing zero or more lists explicitly. 2) Make all validator votes to deny a hotspot part of the chain, so anyone can inspect. Over time, we can see which individual validators are never voting to deny. Which lets owners confirm their operator is using a list or not.
#2 will be a part of this HIP.
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KXI
@Joey Joey - re-summarising: 1 Brave new world Joey has clarified that when the switch is made to light hotspots (3-May), the choice of using or not using a deny list will move to the validators. As such this hip needs to be rewritten. Currently the hip talks about how this move COULD happen, and some of the pros and cons of this and a possible mechanism for it. After the switch this is a done deal. If the HIP is to be relevant, it should instead describe how it proposes to improve on the new world, which might mean it's easier to start from scratch. I'd imagine the community would prefer the new HIP version to focus on patching any gaming holes created by the switch. . (edited)
ty for the notes here. I'm going through the draft to add a lot more clarification. I've been working on this proposal on and off since January and it's easy to forget to include some context - particularly as it relates to the previous iterations / before light hotspots had a launch timeline. (edited)
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Joey
ty for the notes here. I'm going through the draft to add a lot more clarification. I've been working on this proposal on and off since January and it's easy to forget to include some context - particularly as it relates to the previous iterations / before light hotspots had a launch timeline. (edited)
Short note on the graph, don't think that is correct given 2f + 1.
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groot
Short note on the graph, don't think that is correct given 2f + 1.
I'll double-check it & include the equation. (edited)
11:20
Of this backscroll, I am a bit confused by the conflation of governance into this HIP. At the risk of opening that can of worms, I'd be happy to hear how/where that is concern. (edited)
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Joey
Of this backscroll, I am a bit confused by the conflation of governance into this HIP. At the risk of opening that can of worms, I'd be happy to hear how/where that is concern. (edited)
I've told you my concerns about a default list, so theres that. Others, as far as I understood it, are worried that the framework is unfit because there are no clear language on how the lists will be maintained and/or governed. @Testa (edited)
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At the end of the day, only Validators can regulate the operating procedure for a given denylist. The "Defining a List" section tried to paint some guidelines there. https://www.notion.so/heliumfoundation/v3-Distributed-Denylist-Framework-Spec-f5e873270c6247cba1c15997e3eb7dfb#624236147e2c4f6c82fbfa277f02ead8
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Joey
ty for the notes here. I'm going through the draft to add a lot more clarification. I've been working on this proposal on and off since January and it's easy to forget to include some context - particularly as it relates to the previous iterations / before light hotspots had a launch timeline. (edited)
Ya, I think the main point from KXI would be to write the HIP assuming the current world of HIP-55 being passed and implemented (it will be before HIP-40 is implemented if passed) So the move to val deny list is required to keep ANY deny list working, it's just how we go about it, I guess?
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I'm leaning toward the proposals about forcing a choice of list/no-list rather than just including a default. However, given the overwhelming community response to having Nova continue to maintain the denylist in the first place - one could make the case that it would be acceptable as a default. Not advocating for this direction, just pointing out that it could go either way. https://heliumvote.com/14iwaexUYUe5taFgb5hx2BZw74z3TSyonRLYyZU1RbddV4bJest
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krby
Ya, I think the main point from KXI would be to write the HIP assuming the current world of HIP-55 being passed and implemented (it will be before HIP-40 is implemented if passed) So the move to val deny list is required to keep ANY deny list working, it's just how we go about it, I guess?
yea agreed. core of my updates this morning are in this direction.
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Joey
I'm leaning toward the proposals about forcing a choice of list/no-list rather than just including a default. However, given the overwhelming community response to having Nova continue to maintain the denylist in the first place - one could make the case that it would be acceptable as a default. Not advocating for this direction, just pointing out that it could go either way. https://heliumvote.com/14iwaexUYUe5taFgb5hx2BZw74z3TSyonRLYyZU1RbddV4bJest
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:34 AM
I feel the opt-out of a initial denylist still keeps things on the decentralized side of things, while accounting for human laziness to keep the feature functional.
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Joey
I'm leaning toward the proposals about forcing a choice of list/no-list rather than just including a default. However, given the overwhelming community response to having Nova continue to maintain the denylist in the first place - one could make the case that it would be acceptable as a default. Not advocating for this direction, just pointing out that it could go either way. https://heliumvote.com/14iwaexUYUe5taFgb5hx2BZw74z3TSyonRLYyZU1RbddV4bJest
Don't agree on that one, since the vote was specifically to have them continue to maintain the list until HIP40. I don't see why Nova's list should be given any preferential treatment, is that because we expect people not to invest time in their config?
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It's still the only one. 🤷‍♂️
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I feel the opt-out of a initial denylist still keeps things on the decentralized side of things, while accounting for human laziness to keep the feature functional.
I like the analogy I made this morning, Microsoft also liked the way they bundled Internet Explorer, still anti-competitive behaviour though.
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Joey
It's still the only one. 🤷‍♂️
Not a sufficient reason in my opinion, the only reason to include it by default is expecting that validator operators will be so lazy not to follow some instruction picking it.
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groot
Don't agree on that one, since the vote was specifically to have them continue to maintain the list until HIP40. I don't see why Nova's list should be given any preferential treatment, is that because we expect people not to invest time in their config?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:35 AM
Only "preferential treatment" in that it's the only one right now. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Only "preferential treatment" in that it's the only one right now. 🙂
So when more lists arrive you're also going to add those, or none?
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worth keeping in mind that the validator doesn't really have a UI. The IE example makes sense for VaaS. For folks running vals on their own systems, I expect they'll reference the aggregator to see what options are available.
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Joey
worth keeping in mind that the validator doesn't really have a UI. The IE example makes sense for VaaS. For folks running vals on their own systems, I expect they'll reference the aggregator to see what options are available.
If we expect that there is no reason to add the default either, that argument goes both ways.
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groot
So when more lists arrive you're also going to add those, or none?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:37 AM
IIRC there is a part of the HIP when validators have to update/re-opt-in to the lists, yes? So once there are multiple lists, all the lists are opt-in, including the "nova list" 🙂
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In the interest of decentralization I would prefer if the HIP wouldn't put forward the one entity that has centrally enforced a denylist, first in secret later somewhat open.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:38 AM
The first list opt-out is just to bootstrap things.
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I'm not at all against Nova's list by the way, just the 'this is the default' package deal for the HIP40 framework.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The first list opt-out is just to bootstrap things.
Which could just as easily be done by forcing the operator to pick a list before his validator would start.
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Best way to solve this is for someone new to go start up a denylist 🙂
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If you want decentralization, in my opinion, a requirement is that the validator operator makes an active choice to include the list. (ed: or not include the list(s)) (edited)
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groot
Which could just as easily be done by forcing the operator to pick a list before his validator would start.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:40 AM
Opt-out is not the same as forcing them to pick a list.
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Its not like when you go to vote there's just a blank piece of paper. I don't feel the presentation of an option is particularly forcing.
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11:41
I knew you'd like that one, Elon 😉
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Joey
Its not like when you go to vote there's just a blank piece of paper. I don't feel the presentation of an option is particularly forcing.
Last time I checked they don't hand you a filled in voting form with an eraser right? They hand you an empty voting form with a pen.
11:42
Opt-out is just that, a filled in form with the option to get an eraser.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:42 AM
Opt-out account for the reality of lazy validators. Let's be real here. 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Opt-out account for the reality of lazy validators. Let's be real here. 🙂 (edited)
So we're back to that, we don't actually believe any of the rational we've put into the HIP and we don't believe validator operators will do their due diligence?
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Options at install 1) Use a denylist, here is the only one available. 2) Use no denylist. 3) Do nothing, validator software yells at you. GOTO [1,2] I'm not sure how this would functionally work, but just trying to paint the picture. (edited)
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groot
So we're back to that, we don't actually believe any of the rational we've put into the HIP and we don't believe validator operators will do their due diligence?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:43 AM
Some maybe, sure. But I have no faith in humans as a group to be proactive 🙂 (edited)
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Joey
Options at install 1) Use a denylist, here is the only one available. 2) Use no denylist. 3) Do nothing, validator software yells at you. GOTO [1,2] I'm not sure how this would functionally work, but just trying to paint the picture. (edited)
Pretty much, yes. Where 1 would preferentially be replaced with all the options once more become available.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Some maybe, sure. But I have no faith in humans as a group to be proactive 🙂 (edited)
I agree, that's why I proposed forcing a choice.
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Ok... as long as we can agree with all the options being just one. edit: until someone starts a new one (edited)
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groot
I agree, that's why I proposed forcing a choice.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:44 AM
I guess I'm unclear on what applies the "force". What happens if they don't choose an option?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I guess I'm unclear on what applies the "force". What happens if they don't choose an option?
No running validator.
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groot
No running validator.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:45 AM
ok, I can get behind that 🙂
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I fully understand that many of the operators are lazy by default, that's why I want to force them to choose. The choice however is up to them.
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11:46
Both options equally easy to choose.
11:46
I won't go as far as the browser screen that had to be randomized 😛
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:47 AM
To an earlier point, was I recalling correctly that the validators will need to choose again each x time period?
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tbh this (the default/no default conversation) feels way too in the weeds for the overall goal of this HIP. Take decentralization wins when you can, but we don't have to nail every single one each time. Overall, I hope we can agree that this HIP is more decentralized than status quo. (edited)
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Joey
tbh this (the default/no default conversation) feels way too in the weeds for the overall goal of this HIP. Take decentralization wins when you can, but we don't have to nail every single one each time. Overall, I hope we can agree that this HIP is more decentralized than status quo. (edited)
Sure, I was just triggered by the fact that it explicitly states "foundation will never run a denylist in the interest of decentralization" only to put the list of a (historically) closely related entity as default. (edited)
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makes sense
11:50
wen Rak denylist
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Deeper might volunteer, might have 10k entries missing though Troll
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From a Foundation standpoint, Nova is just another ecosystem partner like FreedomFi, Bobcat, Rak, etc. Hopefully some of that comes through in this conversation.
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I understand that fully and on many aspects I would agree, but on this particular aspect where Nova bypassed the community as well as the Foundation, not so much 😉
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Joey
From a Foundation standpoint, Nova is just another ecosystem partner like FreedomFi, Bobcat, Rak, etc. Hopefully some of that comes through in this conversation.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 11:53 AM
Well... Nova wants that. The reality is Nova controls the code. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well... Nova wants that. The reality is Nova controls the code. 😉
Not without signing from Foundation now. At least for on-chain changes. (edited)
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Joey
Not without signing from Foundation now. At least for on-chain changes. (edited)
Pretty sure they can commit helium/blockchain-core their way out of that
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I had an idea... What if the denylist links are recorded in the blockchain and validators use them? If we want to add a new denylist, a HIP needs to happen, which needs to go through a vote to be added to the blockchain
11:55
This way it's still decentralized and we don't rely on validators to choose
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ricopt5
I had an idea... What if the denylist links are recorded in the blockchain and validators use them? If we want to add a new denylist, a HIP needs to happen, which needs to go through a vote to be added to the blockchain
This would be essentially "oracling" in the denylist.
11:56
I think the Validator choice is still important - whether coming from on-chain or externally.
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I'm confident that, if forced to choose, validators will likely make a good judgement call on the inclusion of lists.
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groot
I'm confident that, if forced to choose, validators will likely make a good judgement call on the inclusion of lists.
I don't doubt that. What I fear is that it will be very hard to add new denylist's. That's why I think recording them on-chain and having new denylist's go through a vote a bit better
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Joey
Best way to solve this is for someone new to go start up a denylist 🙂
just need some incentive to do so...altruism won't last unfortunately. As we've seen with Nova's list, its a lot of manpower to maintain one.
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Radrob
just need some incentive to do so...altruism won't last unfortunately. As we've seen with Nova's list, its a lot of manpower to maintain one.
Yep
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Radrob
just need some incentive to do so...altruism won't last unfortunately. As we've seen with Nova's list, its a lot of manpower to maintain one.
Manpower with little upside too, if I'm being blunt.
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If I wasn't working for Foundation, I'd probably run a denylist focused on my immediate area. Unclear how well a list like that would be accepted by Validators
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ricopt5
I don't doubt that. What I fear is that it will be very hard to add new denylist's. That's why I think recording them on-chain and having new denylist's go through a vote a bit better
Just spam #validator-ops until they listen?
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groot
Just spam #validator-ops until they listen?
Well... Spam... 😅
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ricopt5
Well... Spam... 😅
Metaphorically obviously, don't want to upset the turtle.
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Joey
Yep
Not for this HIP, but I think denylist operators will need to get some cut of HNT incentives based on Validator usage. Just need to make sure the incentives don't get perverse
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That would need to be a different HIP (edited)
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Let me just state for the record, before I go into the history books as the big baddie, the framework is really well thought out and I'm fully onboard with that. 🙂
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btw while it's in notion you should be able to comment directly on the doc.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
So you know he's on holiday and you think it's nice to tag him regardless? 🤦
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Best part of this, if you don't like the way the Nova list is run - go set up your own.
12:05
with hookers and blackjack
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groot
So you know he's on holiday and you think it's nice to tag him regardless? 🤦
davidzc "the Gentleman" 04/14/2022 12:05 PM
thanx by the way for your help
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Continually tagging him is going to lead to a quick mute.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/14/2022 12:07 PM
Please stop tagging him
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The SNR on this one...
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groot
Short note on the graph, don't think that is correct given 2f + 1.
the approach here: for each % on the x axis, randomly initialize votes for each validator according to that %, simulate 1000 consensus groups where you randomly select 43 validators' votes, if you get < 22 yesses, you get the rewards. over the course of those 1000 groups, output the % of groups in which you were rewarded
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Joey
the approach here: for each % on the x axis, randomly initialize votes for each validator according to that %, simulate 1000 consensus groups where you randomly select 43 validators' votes, if you get < 22 yesses, you get the rewards. over the course of those 1000 groups, output the % of groups in which you were rewarded
Yeah, that 22 is where I think it's wrong, It should be 2F + 1.
12:11
N=43=3F+1 => F = 14 => 29.
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22 isn't 2F+1 for a 43 member consensus?
12:11
we talking 2F or 3F?
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N = 3F + 1 and N is consensus group size. F = 14 currently so 2F + 1 = 29
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Joey
If I wasn't working for Foundation, I'd probably run a denylist focused on my immediate area. Unclear how well a list like that would be accepted by Validators
If I wasn't working for Foundation, I'd probably run a denylist focused on my immediate area.
I want to do exactly this.
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krby
If I wasn't working for Foundation, I'd probably run a denylist focused on my immediate area.
I want to do exactly this.
I would gladly discuss 😄
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@Joey
Options at install 1) Use a denylist, here is the only one available. 2) Use no denylist. 3) Do nothing, validator software yells at you. GOTO [1,2]
IMO the implementation of this should be something like: For the first version after HIP-40 implementation, a val operator must set some config variable. It can be set to something indicating none or indicating one or more lists. The config variable is required for the validator process to start up, but it is not set at all during the install or upgrade. So, if I 'do nothing' my validator won't start. I am forced to set a config variable (or file or something) before the upgraded validator will run.
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krby
@Joey
Options at install 1) Use a denylist, here is the only one available. 2) Use no denylist. 3) Do nothing, validator software yells at you. GOTO [1,2]
IMO the implementation of this should be something like: For the first version after HIP-40 implementation, a val operator must set some config variable. It can be set to something indicating none or indicating one or more lists. The config variable is required for the validator process to start up, but it is not set at all during the install or upgrade. So, if I 'do nothing' my validator won't start. I am forced to set a config variable (or file or something) before the upgraded validator will run.
I'll throw this in the HIP as you've written. We can hammer on it in there.
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Joey
I'll throw this in the HIP as you've written. We can hammer on it in there.
damnit. I keep forgetting I can edit there. Even though you JUST said it. thx.
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I don't think public can edit, but can comment.
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groot
N = 3F + 1 and N is consensus group size. F = 14 currently so 2F + 1 = 29
Krby or Groot, eli5 on this? The intent of the HIP is to leverage a simple majority. If 2F + 1 doesn't solve that I might need to hit the books.
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Joey
Krby or Groot, eli5 on this? The intent of the HIP is to leverage a simple majority. If 2F + 1 doesn't solve that I might need to hit the books.
It does 2F+1 is a majority, but the number of consensus group members is defined as N = 3F + 1. We have N = 43, it follows that F = 14, so 2F+1 is actually 2*14 + 1 = 29, not 22.
12:28
I can't post pictures here, that's too bad.
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groot
I can't post pictures here, that's too bad.
12:30
I think I'm following you though. Basically you can't just cut 43 in half and round up (edited)
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Indeed, for any sort of consensus in the protocol we use you need 2F + 1.
12:31
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Joey
I think I'm following you though. Basically you can't just cut 43 in half and round up (edited)
Correct. You cannot. The CG algorithm always uses 2F+1 (which is 29 right now because CG size is 43) for "majority" or "agreement".
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I took the liberty of tagging you on #data-analysis for the image.
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N = 43 F = 14 samples = 100000 plt.figure(dpi=600) plt.plot([i for i in range(0,101)],[sum([sum([random.random() < (dlisted/100) for v in range(N)]) < (2*F + 1) for r in range(samples)])/(samples/100) for dlisted in range(0,101)]) plt.title('Rewards while denied') plt.xlabel('% of validators denying hotspot') plt.ylabel('% of rewards') plt.show() (edited)
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I typically say: 2/3rds of CG size, then round up.
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You need a higher amount of agreeing actors for consensus to achieve byzantine agreement (e.g. works against bad actors that deliberately try to sabotage).
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Might run this with some higher samples to remove those wrinkles.
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are the axis labels flipped by chance?
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Joey
are the axis labels flipped by chance?
Yes you're right, that's quite a blunder.
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phew - i was trying to wrap my head around it
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Oh shoot, well I've deleted my message instead of editing it so you should update reference above.
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no worries
12:45
Thanks this looks better.
12:45
so regarding the inflection points, we're shifting up to about 50%-80%
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50% rewardloss is at approx 66%. In my head it makes sense but please double check 🙂
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Appreciate the walkthrough!
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Joey
If I wasn't working for Foundation, I'd probably run a denylist focused on my immediate area. Unclear how well a list like that would be accepted by Validators
I'm not sure if this is tongue in cheek. But in case it's not, the idea that a global set of validators would or should use an aggregation of 1,000s of local vigilante lists is surely nuts?
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groot
I like the analogy I made this morning, Microsoft also liked the way they bundled Internet Explorer, still anti-competitive behaviour though.
Much as I like an analogy also, they can be misleading. To use a different (but still misleading) one, Microsoft default the use of Defender when installing Windows, though a user can easily replace this with an alternative antivirus or even turn it off. This default protects them, other users, and Microsoft's reputation. It is not clear why the community would design a crucial choice mechanism that intentionally makes it more likely the community is harmed by risking a lazy/uninformed validator not using a denylist. Bearing in mind it now appears as if even 20% of validators don't use one, the deny-list begins to fail. This seems a small margin of error, especially if groups of validators are controlled by organisations. The increase in risk seems a heavy price to pay for a fractional (and debatable) increase in decentralisation.
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Radrob
one big problem with CTH approach was to put thousands of hotspots into a single issue without showing how they arrived at those conclusions. There are a number of screenshots and some rssi graphs, but thats not enough to verify the accuracy and no one has time to manually go through 18k hotspots. Because of that, you run a huge risk of denylisting thousands of legitimate hotspots. I applaud their efforts, but it really needs to show the work so to speak.
Fair enough. Though in the case of https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/3027 CTH added more than this in that (they claim) all HS listed witnessed only within a cluster with same parameters. In that, I believe the HS were identified via a query, and the nature of the query would determine whether one agrees with the rationale for inclusion. But it does nicely illustrate the problems 'Helium' have with handling the possible scale of gaming occurring. A point no doubt not lost on organised gamers.
Hotspot b58 Addresses As this list will certainly hit the boudaries of 64k a seperate csv file is attached to this issue with all 15297 b58 addresses in it. CN-b58-list-complete.csv Discord Handle ...
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KXI
Much as I like an analogy also, they can be misleading. To use a different (but still misleading) one, Microsoft default the use of Defender when installing Windows, though a user can easily replace this with an alternative antivirus or even turn it off. This default protects them, other users, and Microsoft's reputation. It is not clear why the community would design a crucial choice mechanism that intentionally makes it more likely the community is harmed by risking a lazy/uninformed validator not using a denylist. Bearing in mind it now appears as if even 20% of validators don't use one, the deny-list begins to fail. This seems a small margin of error, especially if groups of validators are controlled by organisations. The increase in risk seems a heavy price to pay for a fractional (and debatable) increase in decentralisation.
Just because Microsoft Defender hasn't been brought up on anti-trust charges yet doesn't mean it is any less problematic than what they did with Internet Explorer. I think the organizations owning/operating groups of validators are the ones invested enough in the network to put in the effort. The forcing of a choice does not allow a lazy operator not to use the list, he has to make a active choice to do so. I don't exactly understand what you're advocating for, am I understanding it correctly that you want a centralized solution because you feel that your needs are better met that way?
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KXI
Much as I like an analogy also, they can be misleading. To use a different (but still misleading) one, Microsoft default the use of Defender when installing Windows, though a user can easily replace this with an alternative antivirus or even turn it off. This default protects them, other users, and Microsoft's reputation. It is not clear why the community would design a crucial choice mechanism that intentionally makes it more likely the community is harmed by risking a lazy/uninformed validator not using a denylist. Bearing in mind it now appears as if even 20% of validators don't use one, the deny-list begins to fail. This seems a small margin of error, especially if groups of validators are controlled by organisations. The increase in risk seems a heavy price to pay for a fractional (and debatable) increase in decentralisation.
The base assumption of HIP40 is that validator owners will assess the denylists and chose the "good" ones. Therefore you do not need a default list. If you argue that validator owners will not chose lists then you are also saying that HIP40 wont work. Besides that, adding a default list means that default list is endorsed by the community. As such there must be some rules and a clear governance.
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14r3SqsgM9aT9msidoRrfuhV4cPHhf7fLLQB5gmXXcsXwSmdJc9 games
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/15/2022 12:01 PM
the right script(s) could identify "most" cheaters. Add some human over-sight. and you're set.
12:02
Validators should have a mandatory list. I.E. Previous known cheaters - Deeper network - Puma - lemur etc. then let them add supplimental outside lists to this if they choose to or not.
12:03
other-wise cheaters just take their earnings, stake more validators, and game from that side of the network
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
other-wise cheaters just take their earnings, stake more validators, and game from that side of the network
Stake more validators, a 1000 of them?
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groot
Stake more validators, a 1000 of them?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/15/2022 12:07 PM
the idea they don't own 1000 already is foolish
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Can't argue with such a statement as it is impossible to prove from either side 😉
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groot
Can't argue with such a statement as it is impossible to prove from either side 😉
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/15/2022 12:09 PM
true
12:09
just saying cheating has been rampant since the begining, so to think they haven't scaled with the network is foolish.
12:10
or perhaps they just hacked some validator hosting servers
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groot
Just because Microsoft Defender hasn't been brought up on anti-trust charges yet doesn't mean it is any less problematic than what they did with Internet Explorer. I think the organizations owning/operating groups of validators are the ones invested enough in the network to put in the effort. The forcing of a choice does not allow a lazy operator not to use the list, he has to make a active choice to do so. I don't exactly understand what you're advocating for, am I understanding it correctly that you want a centralized solution because you feel that your needs are better met that way?
"am I understanding it correctly that you want a centralized solution because you feel that your needs are better met that way?" No, this not what I am saying. I would like a solution that maximizes the chance of a 'good' denylist(s) operating, as opposed to NO denylist operating. Given that even 20% of validators not using a list risks the denylist becoming useless. I expect this goal is shared by many in the community. I do not see this goal as that controversial. As such, when it comes to the design of a list choice mechanism, I favour a design that minimises the chance of NO denylist operating. So if the discussion is whether the list choice is: a) Defaulted to include at least A denylist vs b) Left open to choose none or some lists We can probably all agree b) makes it slightly more likely that NO list will be used, and therefore it should be obvious why I would favour a) in line with the goal of minimising the risk of no denylist. It seems incorrect to characterise this as the selfish choice of a Centraliser!. The validator still has the choice. .
12:49
The default to use at least A denylist does not necessarily have to be to the current list, one could imagine a two-stage selection - first choice; use list(s) Y/N (defaulted), second choice; which list(s). This might not be technically feasible. The status quo is the deny list choice is decentralized (to makers), after light HS switch it will be differently decentralised (to validators), and under any options discussed here it is still decentralised. There is no 'centralised' choice under discussion or available. The use of any default to use A denylist does favour the current list because it is the only one, so this is in a sense resisting a move to fractionally more decentralisation, but surely this is a small difference. .
12:49
I can see why if you believe a) There is NO risk of ANY validators choosing NO denylist + b) Maximum decentralisation must be pursued above all other goals (i.e. risk of no denylist), then you would favour the option to force an open choice with no default. It's just that I don't believe a) or b). I might be wrong.
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KXI
"am I understanding it correctly that you want a centralized solution because you feel that your needs are better met that way?" No, this not what I am saying. I would like a solution that maximizes the chance of a 'good' denylist(s) operating, as opposed to NO denylist operating. Given that even 20% of validators not using a list risks the denylist becoming useless. I expect this goal is shared by many in the community. I do not see this goal as that controversial. As such, when it comes to the design of a list choice mechanism, I favour a design that minimises the chance of NO denylist operating. So if the discussion is whether the list choice is: a) Defaulted to include at least A denylist vs b) Left open to choose none or some lists We can probably all agree b) makes it slightly more likely that NO list will be used, and therefore it should be obvious why I would favour a) in line with the goal of minimising the risk of no denylist. It seems incorrect to characterise this as the selfish choice of a Centraliser!. The validator still has the choice. .
There is always risk of any validator choosing no list, if he believes the list is nonsense, it is his right not to activate it right, regardless whether that is opt-out or no default list. No default list and a forced active choice is still preferable in my opinion as that ensures that a validator operator makes an active choice without too much risk of no list due to laziness. I don't believe in this 'the ends justify the means' notion when it comes to the decentralization or centralization of the project. As I said before, many in the community want the right to vote (as you said yourself 'shared by many in the community') yet also want to force their wish by defaulting their preference. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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groot
There is always risk of any validator choosing no list, if he believes the list is nonsense, it is his right not to activate it right, regardless whether that is opt-out or no default list. No default list and a forced active choice is still preferable in my opinion as that ensures that a validator operator makes an active choice without too much risk of no list due to laziness. I don't believe in this 'the ends justify the means' notion when it comes to the decentralization or centralization of the project. As I said before, many in the community want the right to vote (as you said yourself 'shared by many in the community') yet also want to force their wish by defaulting their preference. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The key bit is the "without too much risk" - that's your judgement and that's of course fine. But others might disagree. It's mainly about attitude to risk. Also, the framing of the question influences the answer. Imagine a question to the community: 'Should validators be allowed to let Deeper HS earn on the network, even after the MOC found them guilty of mass gaming and banned them for 1 year?' I would guess the vote would be a strong no (I'm not saying that would be my answer). Democracy is manipulatable. As we've discussed before, people can be inconsistent, and the have-cakers and eat-cakers may not be the same people. (edited)
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groot
Just because Microsoft Defender hasn't been brought up on anti-trust charges yet doesn't mean it is any less problematic than what they did with Internet Explorer. I think the organizations owning/operating groups of validators are the ones invested enough in the network to put in the effort. The forcing of a choice does not allow a lazy operator not to use the list, he has to make a active choice to do so. I don't exactly understand what you're advocating for, am I understanding it correctly that you want a centralized solution because you feel that your needs are better met that way?
"Just because Microsoft Defender hasn't been brought up on anti-trust charges yet doesn't mean it is any less problematic than what they did with Internet Explorer." Microsoft and IE is the most well-known and most unpopular software default in history. Not only because of antitrust, but also because it was such a clunker. Citing it to help justify why a given software default is bad is misleading because of its very negative associations. In contrast, Windows Defender (as an example) is a mildly more appropriate analogy in this case, and has much less negative associations for most people, even though some people feel it is still anti-competitive (though Kaspersky dropped their suit in 2017). I.e. choice of analogy can skew people's opinion on a subject, even if unconsciously. Back on track, sure, once multiple (good...) lists are available - offering the open choice between different lists seems 'safe', but surely the community is best served by encouraging validators to pick SOME denylist? The question is what kind of encouragement...?
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KXI
The key bit is the "without too much risk" - that's your judgement and that's of course fine. But others might disagree. It's mainly about attitude to risk. Also, the framing of the question influences the answer. Imagine a question to the community: 'Should validators be allowed to let Deeper HS earn on the network, even after the MOC found them guilty of mass gaming and banned them for 1 year?' I would guess the vote would be a strong no (I'm not saying that would be my answer). Democracy is manipulatable. As we've discussed before, people can be inconsistent, and the have-cakers and eat-cakers may not be the same people. (edited)
This highlights one of the issues I brought up at some recent votes, that the vote questions are sometimes not as impartial as they could be, not necessarily intentional though.
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KXI
"Just because Microsoft Defender hasn't been brought up on anti-trust charges yet doesn't mean it is any less problematic than what they did with Internet Explorer." Microsoft and IE is the most well-known and most unpopular software default in history. Not only because of antitrust, but also because it was such a clunker. Citing it to help justify why a given software default is bad is misleading because of its very negative associations. In contrast, Windows Defender (as an example) is a mildly more appropriate analogy in this case, and has much less negative associations for most people, even though some people feel it is still anti-competitive (though Kaspersky dropped their suit in 2017). I.e. choice of analogy can skew people's opinion on a subject, even if unconsciously. Back on track, sure, once multiple (good...) lists are available - offering the open choice between different lists seems 'safe', but surely the community is best served by encouraging validators to pick SOME denylist? The question is what kind of encouragement...?
Preferentially just facts. I find it disingenuous to boast decentralization(or democracy for that matter) while actively steering the discussion with all sorts of bs politics. Are we really so scared validators don’t care, and if so shouldn’t many of the justifications in the HIP be revisited?
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groot
This highlights one of the issues I brought up at some recent votes, that the vote questions are sometimes not as impartial as they could be, not necessarily intentional though.
I think how the vote question and summary are drafted are pretty crucial. Not sure of the best way to ensure 'fairness' though. Perhaps open them up for wider comment before the votes? My impression of the HIP 58 was many people didn't notice it until most way through the voting, hence unhappiness.
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It seems your arguments are largely based on the fact that the end result, in your opinion, should be that at least 80% includes the list (which is also my opinion btw, but the way we get there seems to be where we disagree) (edited)
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groot
It seems your arguments are largely based on the fact that the end result, in your opinion, should be that at least 80% includes the list (which is also my opinion btw, but the way we get there seems to be where we disagree) (edited)
Yes, I realise that you also want validators to 'make the right choice' (i.e. pick a deny list) but it's the detail of the mechanism. Given events have overtaken HIP 40 and it has been partly achieved with no shots fired (in that validators will be the choice location) and there seems no appetite to include governance stuff, HIP 40 may just be the 'how we get there' stuff?
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groot
There is always risk of any validator choosing no list, if he believes the list is nonsense, it is his right not to activate it right, regardless whether that is opt-out or no default list. No default list and a forced active choice is still preferable in my opinion as that ensures that a validator operator makes an active choice without too much risk of no list due to laziness. I don't believe in this 'the ends justify the means' notion when it comes to the decentralization or centralization of the project. As I said before, many in the community want the right to vote (as you said yourself 'shared by many in the community') yet also want to force their wish by defaulting their preference. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
if you don't trust validators to select a denylist then HIP40 is not a solution. If you want to offer a selection you would need to define in the HIP how that selection for the "forced active choice" list is made. because lists can change. and it would be easy for a gamer to run a good list (at the moment any halfway decent list would be better than what we have..) and then exclude themselves. or stop it at some point.
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KXI
The key bit is the "without too much risk" - that's your judgement and that's of course fine. But others might disagree. It's mainly about attitude to risk. Also, the framing of the question influences the answer. Imagine a question to the community: 'Should validators be allowed to let Deeper HS earn on the network, even after the MOC found them guilty of mass gaming and banned them for 1 year?' I would guess the vote would be a strong no (I'm not saying that would be my answer). Democracy is manipulatable. As we've discussed before, people can be inconsistent, and the have-cakers and eat-cakers may not be the same people. (edited)
I don't know the governance behind the MOC but I assume there is some? as such MOC decisions could be put in a denylist, and that denylist would always be active? This would obviously need to be part of the HIP
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Testa
if you don't trust validators to select a denylist then HIP40 is not a solution. If you want to offer a selection you would need to define in the HIP how that selection for the "forced active choice" list is made. because lists can change. and it would be easy for a gamer to run a good list (at the moment any halfway decent list would be better than what we have..) and then exclude themselves. or stop it at some point.
From current draft: "For the first version of the Validator software to implement denylists, a Validator operator must set a config variable. It can be set to something indicating 'none' or indicating one or more lists. The config variable is required for the validator process to start up, but it is not set at all during the install or upgrade."
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if you think this a bit further.. how would new lists be added? Why would anyone start a list that will not have effect until most validators choose it? how would the validators even know about the list? and how could they tell whether it is a legit list? if it is not active nobody will complain..
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Testa
if you think this a bit further.. how would new lists be added? Why would anyone start a list that will not have effect until most validators choose it? how would the validators even know about the list? and how could they tell whether it is a legit list? if it is not active nobody will complain..
They're all in #validator-ops, not like they are lightyears away on a distant planet and impossible to reach.
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groot
From current draft: "For the first version of the Validator software to implement denylists, a Validator operator must set a config variable. It can be set to something indicating 'none' or indicating one or more lists. The config variable is required for the validator process to start up, but it is not set at all during the install or upgrade."
how would that look like? would the validator operator need to look for valid lists and specify one, or would there be a list to chose from?
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Have you read the draft? It's in there.
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groot
They're all in #validator-ops, not like they are lightyears away on a distant planet and impossible to reach.
reaching them was not easy in extreme situations where the chain stopped - doing it for a denylist is nearly impossible imho. and then you would still need to convince them. and that all for free, no reward, and likely no recognition only threats..
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groot
Have you read the draft? It's in there.
no that part is missing. all it states: "Additional lists can be created by the community and validators can choose to opt-in to additional lists.". but how is such a list generated? who accepts it? etc..
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Testa
reaching them was not easy in extreme situations where the chain stopped - doing it for a denylist is nearly impossible imho. and then you would still need to convince them. and that all for free, no reward, and likely no recognition only threats..
I think you're not giving them enough credit, but that's a common theme on discord and I'm not going to argue the point again.
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maybe start first with the DeWi list and make sure it is working well? and define the governance around it
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There is no DeWi list, never will be too per HIP. (edited)
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groot
There is no DeWi list, never will be too per HIP. (edited)
according to the HIP there will be. There will be the committee under DeWi
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"This proposal will not define the specifics of what “gaming” is. Helium Foundation’s role is to provide a framework for community led decision-making and implementation. How “gaming” is defined is left to denylist operators, members of the Helium Community, and ultimately choice of inclusion by Validators. The Helium Foundation has not and will never run its own denylist out of the interest of decentralization. "
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Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Not even close, no.
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that is the spec though, isn't it? What will be voted on is the HIP, i.e. what is on github?
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As I understood that document will be pushed to GitHub at some point, editing is just easier this way according to Joey
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Testa
reaching them was not easy in extreme situations where the chain stopped - doing it for a denylist is nearly impossible imho. and then you would still need to convince them. and that all for free, no reward, and likely no recognition only threats..
reaching them was not easy in extreme situations where the chain stopped - doing it for a denylist is nearly impossible imho.
You're comparing two very different time scales. In the chain halt situation, we needed specific validator operators to respond literally as fast as possible, minutes or hours. Many hours was too long. People were asleep or travelling, or just not paying attention. Personally, I think val operators should try hard to be reachable and available within a few hours. Nova put together an opt-in "fire alarm" notification thing. I know several operators who signed up for it and have it set things up to alert no matter the time and even if phones are in do-not-disturb mode. For a new chain list, the notifying-to-validator-pickup timeline of a new list does not need to be within hours. It could be days. On #validator-ops, we've talked about it being reasonable to pick up new software releases within 72hrs. That seems fine for a new list to me. How do we find out about new lists? Post in #validator-ops. Or maybe someone will make a bot that auto-posts new lists from the aggregator (described in this HIP) into #validator-ops
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Testa
that is the spec though, isn't it? What will be voted on is the HIP, i.e. what is on github?
No. Joey is reworking the HIP, and likes doing it in Notion while he gets initial feedback. It should be back in GitHub before there's a vote, straw poll, or anything like that. Right now, he has given links (in this channel) to a draft and asked for feedback from folks here https://www.notion.so/v3-Distributed-Denylist-Framework-Spec-f5e873270c6247cba1c15997e3eb7dfb
Joey pinned a message to this channel. 04/16/2022 10:00 AM
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there are multiple github accounts (probably gamers) flooding the denylist with fake reports
02:31
anything that can be done? can they be blocked from adding issues to the list/can their posts be deleted?
02:31
theyre copying the same text over and over
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sneaky778
anything that can be done? can they be blocked from adding issues to the list/can their posts be deleted?
They will just create new accounts and continue to do the same thing
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ricopt5
They will just create new accounts and continue to do the same thing
maybe let only with phone number verified users create new issues if thats possible
03:25
i mean at the current state the denylist is almost useless
03:25
there needs to be a rework
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sneaky778
there needs to be a rework
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/17/2022 3:46 AM
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how is that not going to be abused?
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Sloth
how is that not going to be abused?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/17/2022 5:29 AM
You need a wallet to vote, there haven't been any specifics yet, but i guess you need to burn DC to vote just like helium.vote
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Sloth
Hmm
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/17/2022 5:32 AM
And voting doesn't end in a ban, it helps the signers to focus on the worst offenders compared to the clusterf of a list the have an github right now (edited)
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is there no way to report users on github? that is so obvious that the same person is using multiple accounts
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Testa
is there no way to report users on github? that is so obvious that the same person is using multiple accounts
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/17/2022 7:29 AM
there is a report feature (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
there is a report feature (edited)
..then the Nova team should report them
facepalm 1
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Testa
..then the Nova team should report them
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/17/2022 7:40 AM
You could just report them to (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You could just report them to (edited)
it is a lot more credible if the owners do it
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Testa
it is a lot more credible if the owners do it
It isn't at all. GitHub doesn't care about Nova, or know who they are. Other GitHub users reporting works just as well. Since you have identified them already, please report them!
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krby
It isn't at all. GitHub doesn't care about Nova, or know who they are. Other GitHub users reporting works just as well. Since you have identified them already, please report them!
it is totally obvious. It would also be easy to close the issues. but the list is not maintained at all
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Testa
it is totally obvious. It would also be easy to close the issues. but the list is not maintained at all
Cool, report those account so GitHub! Help make the list easier to manage (edited)
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krby
Cool, report those account so GitHub! Help make the list easier to manage (edited)
looks like nobody wants to take care of the list. Not even Nova
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Testa
looks like nobody wants to take care of the list. Not even Nova
Not even you, either. My comments here this morning are trying to get you involved to help, because applying more people to this makes it easier to manage. It seems like you don't actually want to do that, and I don't understand why. Anyone here could report these junk user accounts your talking about, so why not you? I could too, so could @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 , but I'm calling you out on this because I think it is way more valuable to the project to show that the person that identified the problem could actually help, even even just a little bit. I care less about this than you do, I haven't spent time looking at the github project to identify the pattern you see. Since you do, please take the next step and help the project instead of just asking others to do it for you. Ok, rant over. I'm done preaching. (edited)
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krby
Not even you, either. My comments here this morning are trying to get you involved to help, because applying more people to this makes it easier to manage. It seems like you don't actually want to do that, and I don't understand why. Anyone here could report these junk user accounts your talking about, so why not you? I could too, so could @Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 , but I'm calling you out on this because I think it is way more valuable to the project to show that the person that identified the problem could actually help, even even just a little bit. I care less about this than you do, I haven't spent time looking at the github project to identify the pattern you see. Since you do, please take the next step and help the project instead of just asking others to do it for you. Ok, rant over. I'm done preaching. (edited)
Many reasons. E.g. nova keeps access to the list, therefore nobody else can clean it up. But more importantly, nova is a billion $ company. Why would anyone work for free? 1/3 of all HNT are kept for investments in the network. Why are these not spent? (edited)
facepalm 1
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Testa
Many reasons. E.g. nova keeps access to the list, therefore nobody else can clean it up. But more importantly, nova is a billion $ company. Why would anyone work for free? 1/3 of all HNT are kept for investments in the network. Why are these not spent? (edited)
you're conflating the hotspot deny list with the validator deny list here.. the former is an attempt to maintain a deny list by nova (and yes the github issues are a mess and as capcom mention in #poc-discussion probably the least valuable input to the deny list today). The latter is validator deny lists which should be owned by the foundation and community and .. because that's decentralization.
08:35
back to an actual Sunday
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madninja
you're conflating the hotspot deny list with the validator deny list here.. the former is an attempt to maintain a deny list by nova (and yes the github issues are a mess and as capcom mention in #poc-discussion probably the least valuable input to the deny list today). The latter is validator deny lists which should be owned by the foundation and community and .. because that's decentralization.
No I am referring to the list on github (the one you call Hotspot denylist). It is the only one so it should be fairly clear which one was meant ;)
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in which case we're clearly in the wrong channel since that's unrelated to this hip
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madninja
in which case we're clearly in the wrong channel since that's unrelated to this hip
not totally. a) there is no channel for it and b) this HIP relies on denylists. If not a single one exists that is still alive then that is very relevant.
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madninja
in which case we're clearly in the wrong channel since that's unrelated to this hip
I've said this before in this channel. This channel appears to cover current Nova denylist and hip-40 discussion. I don't know why current denylist conversation hasn't been split out. Testa is right, AFAICT there is no other channel for the current denylist and talk of it here has been the norm for weeks and weeks (edited)
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all past discussion for the current denylist has happened in #poc-discussion which Testa's been involved in in the past afaict (edited)
09:02
but I see it also happened here for maximal confusion
09:04
IMO this HIP's denylist are quite a different proposal from the hotspot denylist (even though they use the same basic underlying "denylist" technique) and should really be an attempt at fixing what's wrong with the hotspot denylist approach from a decentralized governance and validator implementation perspective.
09:05
raging about hotspot denylist approach not working is not constructive here beyond actually suggesting how validator denylist would avoid centralization and work better
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madninja
all past discussion for the current denylist has happened in #poc-discussion which Testa's been involved in in the past afaict (edited)
Oh! I did not know that, thanks! Will direct people there in the future.
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I do think learning from the hotspot denylist to avoid the problems it has to do validator denylist is better but arguing about what nova does or not with hotspot denylist is pretty non constructive here (edited)
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madninja
but I see it also happened here for maximal confusion
I was commenting on sneaky's post. These discussions will keep happening in both channels until there is a clear guideline.
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hotspot denylist -> #poc-discussion , validator denylist -> #hip-40-validator-denylist
09:11
how's that
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madninja
I do think learning from the hotspot denylist to avoid the problems it has to do validator denylist is better but arguing about what nova does or not with hotspot denylist is pretty non constructive here (edited)
you are missing the point. if there is not a single denylist that works, this has a massive impact on HIP40. HIP40 relies on denylists, which means it would not solve anything.
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madninja
how's that
a start ;). What would speak against a channel for denylists? Traffic wise it has been quite substantial
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because then you'd be in all three channels talking about the same denylist issues? (edited)
09:13
I'm not against it, but I'm not a channel moderator so just offering suggestions here to minimize pain
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madninja
because then you'd be in all three channels talking about the same denylist issues? (edited)
not sure why you are picking on me. Again, I was replying to a comment here - see above.
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sorry, wasn't picking on you, "you" was proverbial there
09:14
and https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/965272045694877696 is useful feedback because hip40 is trying to avoid a single entity controlling a denylist.. (edited)
09:15
the money talk is not helpful there and just points at centralization concerns we should all be working to avoid (edited)
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Testa
you are missing the point. if there is not a single denylist that works, this has a massive impact on HIP40. HIP40 relies on denylists, which means it would not solve anything.
right but hip40 can do more than just a single denylist managed by a single entity
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Have said before; if you don't like how a list is run, go set up your own. https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892761815795257424/964239876113453056
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exactly.. and yes one or more denylists are certainly not the ideal end state. the system should be able to detect bad actors and slash or remove incentives, but there'll likely always be edge cases where something like this is needed
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Testa
Many reasons. E.g. nova keeps access to the list, therefore nobody else can clean it up. But more importantly, nova is a billion $ company. Why would anyone work for free? 1/3 of all HNT are kept for investments in the network. Why are these not spent? (edited)
You misunderstand the HST-HNT-Investors-Nova relationship. 33% of HNT minted goes to HST holders. But HST holders are not Nova Labs Inc. They are investors eg investment funds and some employees so 33% does not got direct to the company. Salary, Sales Income and Shares are not the same thing.
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waveform
You misunderstand the HST-HNT-Investors-Nova relationship. 33% of HNT minted goes to HST holders. But HST holders are not Nova Labs Inc. They are investors eg investment funds and some employees so 33% does not got direct to the company. Salary, Sales Income and Shares are not the same thing.
I did not say that Nova owns all HST. I pointed out that there would be a lot of funding available to solve one of the key issues, if not the biggest issue of the network.
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madninja
right but hip40 can do more than just a single denylist managed by a single entity
I get that, but it relies on denylists and if it has not worked so far something needs to change, otherwise HIP40 will fail too. the new draft includes a bit more details regarding governance and who will maintain at least one list. I think that goes into the right direction.
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Testa
I did not say that Nova owns all HST. I pointed out that there would be a lot of funding available to solve one of the key issues, if not the biggest issue of the network.
Biggest 2 key Nova issues at the moment are (1) reliability (2) light hotspots. When they are out of the way - features, new networks and problems. Nova are trying to be a blockchain and comms programming company not a company controlling HNT - this is why decentralisation is constantly mentioned, and independant external governanace. All this "Nova could invest and do x" is centralization which they are deliberately trying to do less of. HIP40 is a community owned solution which we the community will get Nova to deploy.
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People don't seem to understand decentralization... Always requesting for centralized things in a decentralized network...
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waveform
Biggest 2 key Nova issues at the moment are (1) reliability (2) light hotspots. When they are out of the way - features, new networks and problems. Nova are trying to be a blockchain and comms programming company not a company controlling HNT - this is why decentralisation is constantly mentioned, and independant external governanace. All this "Nova could invest and do x" is centralization which they are deliberately trying to do less of. HIP40 is a community owned solution which we the community will get Nova to deploy.
how is that decentralised if it is implemented by Nova? Helium is not decentralised (the 1/3 of HNT going to HST holders is just another example) and starting decentralisation with probably the most difficult problem does not seem like a good idea.
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Testa
how is that decentralised if it is implemented by Nova? Helium is not decentralised (the 1/3 of HNT going to HST holders is just another example) and starting decentralisation with probably the most difficult problem does not seem like a good idea.
HIP40 is a community decentralised solution. Nova will be used as the programming "tool" to implement it, they dont have centralised control. Their code is public and it can be 3rd party checked that they will implement what HIP40 specifies. Bringing HST into it is irrevent and shows you still dont get it. They didnt start decentralisation with this. It started before. Eg DeWI and HIP19 are decentralisaton
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waveform
HIP40 is a community decentralised solution. Nova will be used as the programming "tool" to implement it, they dont have centralised control. Their code is public and it can be 3rd party checked that they will implement what HIP40 specifies. Bringing HST into it is irrevent and shows you still dont get it. They didnt start decentralisation with this. It started before. Eg DeWI and HIP19 are decentralisaton
If 1/3 of all generated tokens go to one group then it is not decentralised, especially not if votes are weighted by #HNTs. So you are suggesting that people should contribute for free while others profit from the work and do not contribute?
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"One group" being a set of investors, not just Nova though. Nova holds about 16% of HST iirc.
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Testa
If 1/3 of all generated tokens go to one group then it is not decentralised, especially not if votes are weighted by #HNTs. So you are suggesting that people should contribute for free while others profit from the work and do not contribute?
If all you keep bringing up is 33% goes to one group then you need to discuss in #token-economics as that is unrelated to HIP40 as I have explained. And you need to see https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/798605225791193129/910158545410986004
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waveform
If all you keep bringing up is 33% goes to one group then you need to discuss in #token-economics as that is unrelated to HIP40 as I have explained. And you need to see https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/798605225791193129/910158545410986004
it's by far not all. it was one example and not the only one (see above). you are not answering my question though: is the idea that the community contributes for free, and others profit?
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Testa
it's by far not all. it was one example and not the only one (see above). you are not answering my question though: is the idea that the community contributes for free, and others profit?
And this is not a HIP40 discussion. So it can be discussed elsewhere.
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waveform
And this is not a HIP40 discussion. So it can be discussed elsewhere.
it is relevant for HIP40 because HIP40 wants the community to solve a big problem for the network. this happens as you said under the flag of decentralisation. as such the bigger picture matters. your silence tells enough though.
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Testa
it is relevant for HIP40 because HIP40 wants the community to solve a big problem for the network. this happens as you said under the flag of decentralisation. as such the bigger picture matters. your silence tells enough though.
If you are right in your thinking then the discussion is relevant for many HIPs so it matters even more that its not discussed in just one HIP40 channel, its more relevant to #hip-discussion
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OptimusPrime 04/17/2022 7:05 PM
I don’t think it is meaningful to explain everything to him/her since he/she keeps mixing different terms and situations together. It becomes an endless effort 😂 (edited)
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KXI
2 Goodbye denylist? As Joey has also clarified, a fundamental problem with moving the deny list choice to the validators is unless a 'significant' proportion use ANY deny list, then it ceases to work. No-one knows whether this will happen, so there is the real possibility that on 3 May, all Deeper hotspots will just start earning again. The draft HIP contains the suggestions that: a) This cannot happen since validators will act 'in the best interests of the network' and use a deny list, b) IF validators do choose not to use a denylist this proves one is not necessary. Unfortunately a) is clearly not necessarily true, and b) is contingent on a) being true. Joey has further clarified that the imagined mechanism to 'enforce' use of a deny list by validators is people online shouting at them. The die is cast, and it could all go pear-shaped shortly or anytime in future. This needs much better mitigation as it risks collapse of trust in the network. . (edited)
Great write up, thanks
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Testa
If 1/3 of all generated tokens go to one group then it is not decentralised, especially not if votes are weighted by #HNTs. So you are suggesting that people should contribute for free while others profit from the work and do not contribute?
Satoshi owns a huge % of bitcoin, is that not decentralized? You’re making odd arguments that aren’t supporting your case here. Can we stick to the denylist and not wander into conjecture about unrelated things?
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Joey
Post Light Hotspots, the denylist cannot run on the hotspot and must move to Validators.
I had a misconception that warrants clarifying: The current denylist follows the challenger role and denials will not stop working with the transition to Light Hotspots. This is directly aligned with the previous functionality where miners did the denials – it’ll just happen on Validators along with challenge creation. This doesn’t change the overall goals of HIP40, it just means that the timeline isn’t as immediate. HIP40 still offers a lot of benefits over the existing methodology, such as recording denials to the chain, allowing for a wider range of denylists providers, and showing insight into the denylists that Validators are leveraging.
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capcom
Satoshi owns a huge % of bitcoin, is that not decentralized? You’re making odd arguments that aren’t supporting your case here. Can we stick to the denylist and not wander into conjecture about unrelated things?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:27 PM
5% 🤷‍♂️
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 3:45 PM
While I support the general Idea of the hip. The implementation and long term maintenance of said list<s> are non-existant or just plain wrong in the V3: Summary. If Validator operators don’t feel the need to run a denylist, then we must assume that the network is in good health. Never Assume Anything... Why would a validator care? they get paid regardless of if it is legit or denied hotspots earning PoC. What incentive is there for #1 Anyone to make a list? Altruism? #2 Any validator to use a list, or pay to maintain a list?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
While I support the general Idea of the hip. The implementation and long term maintenance of said list<s> are non-existant or just plain wrong in the V3: Summary. If Validator operators don’t feel the need to run a denylist, then we must assume that the network is in good health. Never Assume Anything... Why would a validator care? they get paid regardless of if it is legit or denied hotspots earning PoC. What incentive is there for #1 Anyone to make a list? Altruism? #2 Any validator to use a list, or pay to maintain a list?
Validators stake their 10,000 tokens for 5+ months. If they take action (or inaction) that negatively impacts the network, they suffer the most.
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Joey
Validators stake their 10,000 tokens for 5+ months. If they take action (or inaction) that negatively impacts the network, they suffer the most.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 4:29 PM
I see zero historical data to show this as factual and not just wishful thinking.
16:30
Deeper, and others have robbed the network for months, this has not caused validators but legit miners and the "foundation" to suffer.
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Deeper didn't run validators.
16:31
The point is that validators are incentivized to do whatever they can in the best interest of the network.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 4:31 PM
Poor comparison. on my part 👆
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Joey
The point is that validators are incentivized to do whatever they can in the best interest of the network.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 4:31 PM
they should be but they are not.
16:32
They don't earn less because cheaters are making X% of the mined hnt a day
16:33
if they didn't get paid on denied hotspots transactions the way miners don't get paid, then they would be incentivized as it stands and post hip40 as written there is no incentives
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They don't earn less HNT but they do earn less if things negatively affect the value of the network. Furthermore their staked holdings are... at stake.
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Joey
They don't earn less HNT but they do earn less if things negatively affect the value of the network. Furthermore their staked holdings are... at stake.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 4:34 PM
I agree with the last part, but if most people were far sighted and altruistic we wouldn't need a deny list at all.
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Yep, most people don't have 10k HNT staked for 5 months...
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Joey
Yep, most people don't have 10k HNT staked for 5 months...
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 4:36 PM
that is not a convincing argument when weighed against time, hnt value over time etc.
16:37
earnings per day - pre august 2021
16:39
52 Week Low / 52 Week High $8.32 / $55.22 - HNT is mined at 5Million hnt per month pre-the first halving.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 4:52 PM
I do believe with some incentive beyond "it's better for everyone" validators would all chose to use a list, and keep these lists up-to-date, just as they keep their FW/SW/HW-Etc all utd. but so far there is no explained or planned way to produce maintain or fund this list. and that isn't hip 40 specific that is any deny list period.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
I agree with the last part, but if most people were far sighted and altruistic we wouldn't need a deny list at all.
Most people are not gamers. The denylist is for the few who have an outsized affect. At least many of the validator folks are either a liitle far sighted and altruistic, or at least not worried (or not capable?) about maximizing ROI. From a return point of view, 10K HNT staked in a validator is a worse deal than the equivalent in hotspots at today's 0.1HNT/day average. From the talk on #validator-ops , the long term fiat value of HNT seems to matter quite a bit. (edited)
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krby
Most people are not gamers. The denylist is for the few who have an outsized affect. At least many of the validator folks are either a liitle far sighted and altruistic, or at least not worried (or not capable?) about maximizing ROI. From a return point of view, 10K HNT staked in a validator is a worse deal than the equivalent in hotspots at today's 0.1HNT/day average. From the talk on #validator-ops , the long term fiat value of HNT seems to matter quite a bit. (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/18/2022 5:07 PM
only if your solo staking it right now, or at recent higher prices. Not at all if it was earned through cheating or earned and staked 12+ months ago.
17:08
Not that most validators cheated
17:09
most are probably long time helium supporters, and those that invest support helium in various/several other forms/functions
17:09
crowd sourced ones are a little harder to trust, but I stake through one, on two separate validators.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
crowd sourced ones are a little harder to trust, but I stake through one, on two separate validators.
Ya, the biggest validator pool (I think still? not sure) is Helium Rising and both the key folks I have talked to there seem to be long term supporters of Helium. (edited)
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capcom
Satoshi owns a huge % of bitcoin, is that not decentralized? You’re making odd arguments that aren’t supporting your case here. Can we stick to the denylist and not wander into conjecture about unrelated things?
I did not say anthing about HNT ownership. I was referring to HST, meaning that 1/3 of all newly created HNT go to HST owners. I am sure you are very familiar with this. This is not the case with bitcoin. if it would be, then bitcoin would not be seen as a payment network and would not be that popular. Therefore it is very relevant. You want to push work to the community, while there is still a group in the background that profits from that work done for free. That group is called "investors", wouldn't that be an opportunity to inverst in the management of the denylist instead of relying on volunteers that are not rewarded?
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Testa
I did not say anthing about HNT ownership. I was referring to HST, meaning that 1/3 of all newly created HNT go to HST owners. I am sure you are very familiar with this. This is not the case with bitcoin. if it would be, then bitcoin would not be seen as a payment network and would not be that popular. Therefore it is very relevant. You want to push work to the community, while there is still a group in the background that profits from that work done for free. That group is called "investors", wouldn't that be an opportunity to inverst in the management of the denylist instead of relying on volunteers that are not rewarded?
Can we stick to the denylist and not wander into conjecture about unrelated things?
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Joey
Can we stick to the denylist and not wander into conjecture about unrelated things?
how is discussing the remuneration for the work required by HIP40 unrelated?
groundhog 1
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Testa
I did not say anthing about HNT ownership. I was referring to HST, meaning that 1/3 of all newly created HNT go to HST owners. I am sure you are very familiar with this. This is not the case with bitcoin. if it would be, then bitcoin would not be seen as a payment network and would not be that popular. Therefore it is very relevant. You want to push work to the community, while there is still a group in the background that profits from that work done for free. That group is called "investors", wouldn't that be an opportunity to inverst in the management of the denylist instead of relying on volunteers that are not rewarded?
This still makes no sense. Every VC backed project works this way and Helium has one of the smaller distributions to investors and insiders of any of them. If you want to argue that there should be a rewards pool for denylist maintainers then make that argument. Arguing about whether your opinion of decentralization is correct is not going to result in anything useful
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So, is there any progress on how the list is maintained?
11:52
I've been on it for over 10 weeks and I really want to get of it because I believe i've been put up there unfairly https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2239
11:53
Been gathering intel and proof of my miner being legit, real and not cheating on purpose.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 04/19/2022 11:54 AM
This is the hip40 room, that's unrelated, probably better in #poc-discussion
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Ok sorry for that, just so frustrating that I can't get of the list. No one is replying on Github looking at my issue.
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Toxar
Ok sorry for that, just so frustrating that I can't get of the list. No one is replying on Github looking at my issue.
same here , it is ridiculous
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How are things going here?
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zzeddd
How are things going here?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/29/2022 4:18 AM
Waiting for Lighthotspots
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Alright. Then published and voted shortly afterwards?
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zzeddd
Alright. Then published and voted shortly afterwards?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/01/2022 12:20 AM
Depends on Neil if he feels comfortable with it, but in the best case yeah
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Hello, how do you recognize whether a hotspot is on the denilist.
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AlexaFg
Hello, how do you recognize whether a hotspot is on the denilist.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 4:09 PM
The explorer page will say it, top left area. 🙂
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im just trying to see if this whole light hotspot thing helps weed out even more spoofers/gamers and understanding how it helps weed out more of them, vs before light hotspots, like i get why light hotspots and the main reason for it, but does this also help weed out more spoofers/gamers and how so? or am i fundamentally asking an incorrect question? and doesnt make anysense what im trying to see
17:08
since the validators are the ones who challenge hotspots now, its kinda like the validators are overlooking poc now in a sense, unless im thinking about this wrongly,
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ItsJayPee
im just trying to see if this whole light hotspot thing helps weed out even more spoofers/gamers and understanding how it helps weed out more of them, vs before light hotspots, like i get why light hotspots and the main reason for it, but does this also help weed out more spoofers/gamers and how so? or am i fundamentally asking an incorrect question? and doesnt make anysense what im trying to see
The deny list and PoC is now run by validators, but that's not guarantee some val operators won't run code that ignores the denylist. I think it is less likely that a big percentage do this, but it is still possible. (edited)
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krby
The deny list and PoC is now run by validators, but that's not guarantee some val operators won't run code that ignores the denylist. I think it is less likely that a big percentage do this, but it is still possible. (edited)
What I’m saying is , if someone is spoofing or trying to game . After the light hotspots . Is it even worse or harder for them to do so ? Or is it unaffected . Since validators run deny list snd POC now . Is there a way for validator to more easily detect gaming since all the info and communication derived from validators now instead of hotspot to hotspot .
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It is likely slightly harder for them. Previously, some hotspot makers did not implement the denylist, so those hotspots could reward gamers. That's it though. The validators have no better information on gamers than the hotspots did. Still using the same denylist mechanism.
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Is there a system that can be implanted now vs back then? Since validators are now the once sending challenges ?
22:18
Or it just doesn’t make a difference at all
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ItsJayPee
Or it just doesn’t make a difference at all
There's not more information the validators have than the hotspots had.
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Are validators not applying the denylist by default right now?
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Lnz
Are validators not applying the denylist by default right now?
They are applying it. The latest release (I think the last two?) has it applied by default. (edited)
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Need some help with my hotspot, bought it from a marketplace but was on a denylist. I filled in the form on github but no action yet. Some one said I must ask the previus owner why its on there but I dont know who it is.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues + new issue Make sure you add as much good evidence as you can, issues without much evidence will likely not go anywhere (edited)
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KXI
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues + new issue Make sure you add as much good evidence as you can, issues without much evidence will likely not go anywhere (edited)
Does the owner get a warning before the miner is put on the denylist? (edited)
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Shabonz
Does the owner get a warning before the miner is put on the denylist? (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/21/2022 3:49 AM
no, when its on the denylist, its shown on explorer
03:49
but nothings sent to the owner before that happens
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Ok great. Thanks. 🙏🏼
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Once verified on GitHub, how long before they remove the "denylist" from my hotspot on the explorer or the app? (edited)
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SST_3LiTZ
Once verified on GitHub, how long before they remove the "denylist" from my hotspot on the explorer or the app? (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/25/2022 1:53 PM
who knows, I have one I submitted almost 2 months ago at this point and it's still yet to be removed.
13:53
4/6 submitted. still on denylist.
13:54
the first one I submitted before then was maybe 2 days. so seems no real rhyme or reason behind timing. 🤷‍♂️
13:54
pretty frustrating as we've had a host recently who got fed up and wants to give it back since their unit isn't able to earn anything while we wait indefinitely.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
who knows, I have one I submitted almost 2 months ago at this point and it's still yet to be removed.
They responded a few hours after my submission and told me it was a mistake....smdh!
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SST_3LiTZ
They responded a few hours after my submission and told me it was a mistake....smdh!
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/25/2022 5:17 PM
What was a mistake it being added?
17:18
The person who added it?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
What was a mistake it being added?
Yeah, they responded in GitHub how they added my miner by accident
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
What was a mistake it being added?
Hotspot Name Strong Brunette Jaguar Hotspot b58 Address 11232oGEzpBnrNfdujQthS6h3xrwXf7mk2EYss4BBojiXJdJBJPD Discord Handle SST_3LiTZ#4327 Hotspot Manufacturer FreedomFI Removal Reason I purchased ...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pinned a message to this channel. 05/26/2022 12:51 AM
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benjaminchodroff 06/01/2022 8:52 AM
I purchased a miner which is on the denylist. I have a real valid setup, and tried twice now over the last two months to get off the denylist with no response. Is there anyone who can help or provide any advice? https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2991
Hotspot Name gigantic honeysuckle stork Hotspot b58 Address 1128vxNoif3DThFgAN3MdWk3LvbvB9KmDf3akVHtWfrP3jEhvgsu Discord Handle benjaminchodroff#5260 Hotspot Manufacturer Panther Removal Reason I p...
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Not a great solution but buy a defective one and swap the ecc board if it’s removable?
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benjaminchodroff
I purchased a miner which is on the denylist. I have a real valid setup, and tried twice now over the last two months to get off the denylist with no response. Is there anyone who can help or provide any advice? https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2991
Up front: I am not involved with the denylist. Your request appears to be well formed. I am hopeful that the denylist maintainers take notice. Your issue highlights the problem with the current implementation of the denylist and what HIP40 seeks to fix – the problem being that once a Hotspot goes onto the denylist, we don't get any further information on its PoC activity. For now, your best bet is likely to make sure the Hotspot stays online. If your issue isn't noticed in the next week or a so, a bump of the issue may be in order.
❤️ 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 06/02/2022 12:46 PM
The hip40 changes have now been merged partyparrot
12:46
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io pinned a message to this channel. 06/02/2022 12:47 PM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 06/02/2022 12:47 PM
Let me be the first to say #wenvote
partyparrot 5
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Let me be the first to say #wenvote
It has been said that the authors should give the go, you’re one of them so let’s go?👍
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Core devs intend to put together an implementation at which point we'll put this up for a vote. IN the mean time, still looking for feedback. (edited)
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fight against cheaters #whenvote
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Joey
Up front: I am not involved with the denylist. Your request appears to be well formed. I am hopeful that the denylist maintainers take notice. Your issue highlights the problem with the current implementation of the denylist and what HIP40 seeks to fix – the problem being that once a Hotspot goes onto the denylist, we don't get any further information on its PoC activity. For now, your best bet is likely to make sure the Hotspot stays online. If your issue isn't noticed in the next week or a so, a bump of the issue may be in order.
Taking 4 online HS from the denylist as examples, I can see PoC activity for all of them? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11wZKC8yNP4CY94tZi7tyubxfPkZKTEdFuvn6SgqE7wpoZruaSE https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11mYzLaWhLuHPAEmVBf12KtdDABSQGYrin3AEi4MibwxAkPnyAi https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112S1PaRDFCw2E9cxk9fGiu5ar3zd8q6VnCUuG1gbAedD7AH7wQA https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11wo9f9MhdY2dpE2KEP13eATBbSsjGyig1T7EHLpnr8qhowYHke https://www.heliumboard.com/denylist?status=3&order=4&sort=desc&page=1 Is this PoC activity not on chain, or is there other additional information than this that is needed for denylisted HS that is removed by denylist inclusion? These guys are still earning PoC, as are many on the denylist (a seperate issue) so presumably their PoC must be being recorded on chain? Have I misunderstood something? (edited)
Helium Board is a sophisticated tool for seeing reports for Helium hotspots and the overall Helium network.
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And case in point, the HS that's the subject of this removal request does have several beacons recorded over a couple of months - after it's denylist inclusion and then subsequent transfer and re-assertion. https://explorer.helium.com/txns/7XcOIqJAinAUcztvSuvOOwY3fWVi2xYB_geICbnW8UY Is this the issue that blocked PoC is not recorded for denylisted HS, but some loophole is allowing some PoC though for some denylisted and this is what is being recorded for some HS?
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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KXI
Taking 4 online HS from the denylist as examples, I can see PoC activity for all of them? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11wZKC8yNP4CY94tZi7tyubxfPkZKTEdFuvn6SgqE7wpoZruaSE https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11mYzLaWhLuHPAEmVBf12KtdDABSQGYrin3AEi4MibwxAkPnyAi https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112S1PaRDFCw2E9cxk9fGiu5ar3zd8q6VnCUuG1gbAedD7AH7wQA https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/11wo9f9MhdY2dpE2KEP13eATBbSsjGyig1T7EHLpnr8qhowYHke https://www.heliumboard.com/denylist?status=3&order=4&sort=desc&page=1 Is this PoC activity not on chain, or is there other additional information than this that is needed for denylisted HS that is removed by denylist inclusion? These guys are still earning PoC, as are many on the denylist (a seperate issue) so presumably their PoC must be being recorded on chain? Have I misunderstood something? (edited)
We should check out if they have validators or validator owners in common. As it seems the one with the crazy amount of activity has been in challenges involving Nova's validators so I suppose there must be something else going on. (edited)
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groot
We should check out if they have validators or validator owners in common. As it seems the one with the crazy amount of activity has been in challenges involving Nova's validators so I suppose there must be something else going on. (edited)
I realised I answered my own question and it's just the well-known issue with denylist earning...
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Hope that HIP40 improves this
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groot
We should check out if they have validators or validator owners in common. As it seems the one with the crazy amount of activity has been in challenges involving Nova's validators so I suppose there must be something else going on. (edited)
It appears that one of the providers is misconfigured
08:41
And yes HIP40’s implementation would make this less likely
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Hi, is this the right channel to share an issue to add to denylist?
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alexcorvis
Hi, is this the right channel to share an issue to add to denylist?
Angry Pickle Bear 06/06/2022 9:37 AM
No, if you want to request to add something to the denylist, it's best to open up an issue on the GitHub page for the denylist https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues
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Angry Pickle Bear
No, if you want to request to add something to the denylist, it's best to open up an issue on the GitHub page for the denylist https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues
Thanks, done 😉
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alexcorvis
Thanks, done 😉
Angry Pickle Bear 06/06/2022 9:44 AM
No problem! We're also trying to experiment with a new way to find bad actors with https://crowdspot.io/ and vote on punishing them. It's not compatible with the current app, but works with the #helium-wallet and will work with the future Wallet app
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I want to ask, don't blacklisted devices also maintain the development of the network? Why can't you get the reward? Can anyone explain?
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Hotspots on the denylist are eligible for data transfer rewards. While significantly smaller than PoC, they can technically still earn.
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OK, thanks
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#whenvote
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this i complete shame, helium add real 24 hotspots to the denylist in Spain , but they dont want add the 1600 + fake in Spain https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/3115 . this bigs farms are protected by helium team ?? (edited)
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Jose79
this i complete shame, helium add real 24 hotspots to the denylist in Spain , but they dont want add the 1600 + fake in Spain https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/3115 . this bigs farms are protected by helium team ?? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/27/2022 12:21 PM
Sounds like the "proof" given was insufficient. No one is protecting cheat farms.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sounds like the "proof" given was insufficient. No one is protecting cheat farms.
what kind of proof is needed ( please write it down )? maybe a selfie with the 500+clusters??? XD . ........ A few days ago . 7 hs were banned 200km from the big farm . do you know the proof for that? "I think they cheating because sometimes have invalids between them" so went banned... bravo !! well job!!
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sounds like the "proof" given was insufficient. No one is protecting cheat farms.
Well done, Cheaters fattening their wallets, while small local projects are thrown to the ground.
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Jose79
what kind of proof is needed ( please write it down )? maybe a selfie with the 500+clusters??? XD . ........ A few days ago . 7 hs were banned 200km from the big farm . do you know the proof for that? "I think they cheating because sometimes have invalids between them" so went banned... bravo !! well job!!
Perhaps they cannot recognize that they are failing on such a large scale because it means the failure of the project and that is why they act as if nothing had happened. Meanwhile they play at being gods with small real projects, like mine and my clients', so they can say they have caught the "cheaters" and get a medal. One week since they decided to deny list a project that I have together with local corporations, by an envious person who doesn't even know how to install their hotspots and no answer since then https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6021
Hotspot Name Restless topaz koala Hotspot b58 Address 11pFVRhT2QTK7mmawFYxzHcJhETrq84ioPgULtpUDvYuGJ6fBP1 112sSX1iVu3eK1NCZ9nLhiRe5tcNhk5rwK1YWJ9Zh18kj1CwMWmK 117UKPDtbnxEiWycHN3K51bwoR6LLy3bArRHSq...
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Jose79
what kind of proof is needed ( please write it down )? maybe a selfie with the 500+clusters??? XD . ........ A few days ago . 7 hs were banned 200km from the big farm . do you know the proof for that? "I think they cheating because sometimes have invalids between them" so went banned... bravo !! well job!!
I can’t really follow that issue. But having a bunch of miners means at minimum one of these three: Early adopter Hosting company Faker I can’t see how issue 3115 differentiates based on payments and owning validators? That’s the reason they might be asking for better proof
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shadowfax
I can’t really follow that issue. But having a bunch of miners means at minimum one of these three: Early adopter Hosting company Faker I can’t see how issue 3115 differentiates based on payments and owning validators? That’s the reason they might be asking for better proof
there are more than 1600 HS.. there are only witnesses among them... none other than their wallets can make witnesses, you really don't think there is something wrong? apart from the fact that it has already been verified with a mapper and there is simply no response from any hs
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Jose79
there are more than 1600 HS.. there are only witnesses among them... none other than their wallets can make witnesses, you really don't think there is something wrong? apart from the fact that it has already been verified with a mapper and there is simply no response from any hs
That’s compelling. Got dewi sql query that proves that? That would be solid proof. But a statement of a fact isn’t proof, a query that shows it is proof. (edited)
06:26
Gosh so may typos in a message, I can’t type today
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shadowfax
I can’t really follow that issue. But having a bunch of miners means at minimum one of these three: Early adopter Hosting company Faker I can’t see how issue 3115 differentiates based on payments and owning validators? That’s the reason they might be asking for better proof
So there is no issue with them, they are early adopters with 1600 HS or hosting company, but mine based on one person that opens a report witouth enough proofs is ok, it has to be "faker"
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CaptainW
So there is no issue with them, they are early adopters with 1600 HS or hosting company, but mine based on one person that opens a report witouth enough proofs is ok, it has to be "faker"
I’m just a user wishing there was a way to catch all the fakers. Giving my take. What’s your issue link? Because I’m not following your reply
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shadowfax
I’m just a user wishing there was a way to catch all the fakers. Giving my take. What’s your issue link? Because I’m not following your reply
I was unfairly banned by a person who put a post saying that they do not connect with theirs, when with an image I have refuted their accusation since they have connected with others in the area https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6021
Hotspot Name Restless topaz koala Hotspot b58 Address 11pFVRhT2QTK7mmawFYxzHcJhETrq84ioPgULtpUDvYuGJ6fBP1 112sSX1iVu3eK1NCZ9nLhiRe5tcNhk5rwK1YWJ9Zh18kj1CwMWmK 117UKPDtbnxEiWycHN3K51bwoR6LLy3bArRHSq...
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CaptainW
I was unfairly banned by a person who put a post saying that they do not connect with theirs, when with an image I have refuted their accusation since they have connected with others in the area https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6021
Oh. I’d advise you swap out that miner. There is only one person doing the deny list adds in their free time. It’s about every 60 days. So there was on may 27. So next around late July
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shadowfax
That’s compelling. Got dewi sql query that proves that? That would be solid proof. But a statement of a fact isn’t proof, a query that shows it is proof. (edited)
I dont have dewi sql , I dont know how to do. maybe someone help me for that
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So you are 4 days into a 60 day or so timeline if that’s sufficient proof .your ticket looked good to me
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Jose79
I dont have dewi sql , I dont know how to do. maybe someone help me for that
I don’t either because it requires @gmail.com and I don’t use gmail. But that should be a valid query.
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shadowfax
So you are 4 days into a 60 day or so timeline if that’s sufficient proof .your ticket looked good to me
I appreciate it. but it took 5 days from the denylist request post until they put the hotspots of my clients and mine in denylist and now I have to wait in the worst case 55 days for them to be unblocked with the evidence provided. There is no way to unlock them momentarily in the absence of checking my post requesting to remove it and if it is not enough to add it again?
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shadowfax
I don’t either because it requires @gmail.com and I don’t use gmail. But that should be a valid query.
There should be other types of tests, physical, mappers or even radio SDR. not only one "proof" type
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CaptainW
I appreciate it. but it took 5 days from the denylist request post until they put the hotspots of my clients and mine in denylist and now I have to wait in the worst case 55 days for them to be unblocked with the evidence provided. There is no way to unlock them momentarily in the absence of checking my post requesting to remove it and if it is not enough to add it again?
What’s the link to where you were added? Sounds like it’s sucky timing, but since this is free time volunteers there is no money allocated to pay someone to manage this list. Maybe a hip to do that would get traction?
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Jose79
There should be other types of tests, physical, mappers or even radio SDR. not only one "proof" type
Well they apparently are, if you write a good ticket with compelling proof in @CaptainW case you can get put on with bad proof. A dewi sql proof would be hard to refute so it’s better if it fits the data
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shadowfax
What’s the link to where you were added? Sounds like it’s sucky timing, but since this is free time volunteers there is no money allocated to pay someone to manage this list. Maybe a hip to do that would get traction?
Hotspot b58 Addresses 11pFVRhT2QTK7mmawFYxzHcJhETrq84ioPgULtpUDvYuGJ6fBP1 112sSX1iVu3eK1NCZ9nLhiRe5tcNhk5rwK1YWJ9Zh18kj1CwMWmK 117UKPDtbnxEiWycHN3K51bwoR6LLy3bArRHSqGY33NfHL87Msn 112QvbuTJhrETrV1PH...
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Looks like the reporter noticed your 6021 issue
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shadowfax
Well they apparently are, if you write a good ticket with compelling proof in @CaptainW case you can get put on with bad proof. A dewi sql proof would be hard to refute so it’s better if it fits the data
I dont know how to do a dewi sql, I live in the middle of " problematic" zone. maybe a video with a mapper o some like that ?
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Jose79
I dont know how to do a dewi sql, I live in the middle of " problematic" zone. maybe a video with a mapper o some like that ?
A mapper right now wouldn’t help, too many miners have mux disabled. That’s making my mapper totally fail seeing my miners sitting in my parking lot. But once they fix that issue and most are running firmware with the fix it could work - especially if you walk around the block with a mapper and don’t see them
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shadowfax
A mapper right now wouldn’t help, too many miners have mux disabled. That’s making my mapper totally fail seeing my miners sitting in my parking lot. But once they fix that issue and most are running firmware with the fix it could work - especially if you walk around the block with a mapper and don’t see them
I also know that problem, but by statistics, with a dozen witnesses it would be enough that they are really there. thing that has never happened
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shadowfax
Oh. I’d advise you swap out that miner. There is only one person doing the deny list adds in their free time. It’s about every 60 days. So there was on may 27. So next around late July
Happily, things are moving faster currently, with thousands getting denied every few days https://github.com/helium/denylist/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed But this doesn't give a guarantee any specific issues would be looked at immediately
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
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But this doesn't give a guarantee any specific issues would be looked at immediately
That's the nature of a decentralized project. Many many volunteers doing work, and they get to choose how to spend their time.
(edited)
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krby
But this doesn't give a guarantee any specific issues would be looked at immediately
That's the nature of a decentralized project. Many many volunteers doing work, and they get to choose how to spend their time.
(edited)
I didn't mean to imply that not looking at an issue immediately was a failing, but just warning the OP that while the denylist has moved up a gear recently, that doesn't necessarily mean their issue will definitely get looked at soon, but hopefully it will in not too distant future. 6CD is doing a great job balancing removals with an avalanche of additions
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CaptainW
I think the failure of helium deal with gamers is their own responsibility, it is about the perfection of their system,they may have a very good idea of running iot, but obviously they underestimate human nature,and the explosion of user,the limitation of blockchain, so the need to take responsibility of that, and not to blame user/miner for cheating, they can't assume all user is gaming, and if you are suspended,you need to proof yourself clear, it is not civilized, at a democratic city, it just like black jail
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rick
I think the failure of helium deal with gamers is their own responsibility, it is about the perfection of their system,they may have a very good idea of running iot, but obviously they underestimate human nature,and the explosion of user,the limitation of blockchain, so the need to take responsibility of that, and not to blame user/miner for cheating, they can't assume all user is gaming, and if you are suspended,you need to proof yourself clear, it is not civilized, at a democratic city, it just like black jail
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/29/2022 12:59 AM
Ironic, beause you are part of helium too. We are all in this together
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04:19
In a few weeks 1 year with big cluster ....
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Jose79
In a few weeks 1 year with big cluster ....
The wheels of justice can turn slowly sometimes But they do turn https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8939435b5b3ffff
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Max - Just Max 06/30/2022 8:30 PM
So will this become Oracle denylist?
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KXI
The wheels of justice can turn slowly sometimes But they do turn https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/8939435b5b3ffff
there is no justice for the big ones, seems they are protected
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Jose79
there is no justice for the big ones, seems they are protected
We'll see. Note the recent mapping data for that hex
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KXI
We'll see. Note the recent mapping data for that hex
Yes is my mapper. fake hotspots are "my neighbors"
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Is miner logs acceptable as evidence to put cheaters in denylist? example: https://pastebin.com/CV5KjDnC
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uu
Is miner logs acceptable as evidence to put cheaters in denylist? example: https://pastebin.com/CV5KjDnC
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 07/01/2022 4:59 AM
There is no way to make sure it's real
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
There is no way to make sure it's real
yeah that's what I thought :\ (edited)
05:07
real shame tho, it's so blatant gaming
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KXI
We'll see. Note the recent mapping data for that hex
I noted. I just didn’t understand what the note said.
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shadowfax
I noted. I just didn’t understand what the note said.
Recent mapping providing additional data on the extent of the local network. Prior to this local mapping data was very old and of unknown source. https://mappers.helium.com/uplinks/hex/893942248a7ffff
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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What’s that mean? Isn’t that a wallet with 1600 miners? Likely a hosting service?
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shadowfax
What’s that mean? Isn’t that a wallet with 1600 miners? Likely a hosting service?
same miner, same 6bi antena, same witness , scale 1 .... very suspicious
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Jose79
same miner, same 6bi antena, same witness , scale 1 .... very suspicious
I’m not following you. What exactly are you saying?
08:00
6 Dbi is basically a 5.8 antenna plus cable. I didn’t see many in the same area. They are all spread out, not witnessing each other from what I can tell. Also a random one looks ok on crowdspot https://www.crowdspot.io/hotspots/11x9fJikGkjHv2KpHXtXxpG4jZjjyuQuFWmfMZyZDqhicGk3aa6
08:01
If I was a hosting place I’d likely cancel hosting with a host if the return isn’t good. So having above average return isn’t surprising with a host of 1600 hs
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shadowfax
If I was a hosting place I’d likely cancel hosting with a host if the return isn’t good. So having above average return isn’t surprising with a host of 1600 hs
This ^^^^ I guess some folks don't realize that some owners either avoid placing hotspots in low earning places in the first place, or they move them later if a given place isn't earning what is expected.
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04:04
they know what we are talking about it ..... all hotspots went off XD
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
04:42
So helium does not protect his blessed HS
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Jose79
they know what we are talking about it ..... all hotspots went off XD
It's all on-chain. The tracks can't be covered up...
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This is real hotspot y a top of the hill of the "problematic" area. clear view to the horizon and sea. you can see a clear view of the fake cluster on the Hotspot witness graph, only witness with same wallet and hotspot https://www.crowdspot.io/hotspots/112ksxRrJtSL78ipHHaVgAWLKonrgaKPFBUueFW5facgontFDSed
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 07/09/2022 3:56 AM
You can add a denylist request
03:57
Contribute to helium/denylist development by creating an account on GitHub.
03:57
Click new issue and report them
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You do understand posting that to deny in a channel that is discussing adding a way to load debt lists seems like the wrong channel to post your work? No one is going to do anything with your work. You need to write a good ticket in the GitHub deny list or vote on them on the crowdspot.io website (edited)
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The whole cluster of 1,791 was reported on Thursday, with (I believe) conclusive evidence of gaming https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6504 This will hopefully be the end of them (edited)
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Hi, I'm Marc from the issue(https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6518 ) 6518. What is going on here? How easy is to remove us from the denylist? How can we quickly demonstrate that we are not cheating, we have put quite an effort on our setup. And we have a collaborative effort with the other HS owners and hosts of our town. Let us know what information we can provide to show our good faith and valid setup. (edited)
Hotspot Name Feisty Magenta Corgi Hotspot b58 Address 11tocJJG2YTemCM9V7zzakW9ywfvxDGYi8u8FKScJPY7zMS5wpN Discord Handle oxido.eth#6091 and permalac#7147 Hotspot Manufacturer Pisces Removal Reason ...
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shadowfax
You do understand posting that to deny in a channel that is discussing adding a way to load debt lists seems like the wrong channel to post your work? No one is going to do anything with your work. You need to write a good ticket in the GitHub deny list or vote on them on the crowdspot.io website (edited)
you're right . I know that by this way I will not get it , But...It's called common sense... the little ones will be banned in less than 3 days, the big ones... never... maybe there's money involved.
facepalm 1
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Jose79
you're right . I know that by this way I will not get it , But...It's called common sense... the little ones will be banned in less than 3 days, the big ones... never... maybe there's money involved.
There is a new pull request for a 6,619 hotspot addition to the denylist, including the Balearic cluster that is 1,791, and several others that are >100 each. https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/6532 (edited)
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Jose79
you're right . I know that by this way I will not get it , But...It's called common sense... the little ones will be banned in less than 3 days, the big ones... never... maybe there's money involved.
Conspiracy theory much?
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KXI
There is a new pull request for a 6,619 hotspot addition to the denylist, including the Balearic cluster that is 1,791, and several others that are >100 each. https://github.com/helium/denylist/pull/6532 (edited)
Will this pull request bring back online our hotspots in Calaf from issue #6518? It seems they've been included for removal, but when will this update actually take place? Thanks for your help
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What I see now on GitHub within a day a lot of new GitHub user that claim to be legit and post photos. 2 days ago the upvoting started on crowdspot. Now on GitHub. Very strange. (edited)
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oxido.eth
Will this pull request bring back online our hotspots in Calaf from issue #6518? It seems they've been included for removal, but when will this update actually take place? Thanks for your help
Yes, yours are in there. Looks like it shouldn't be long now might be tonight or tomorrow... Your friend's https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6530 is not in there, but hopefully will get checked and if ok go in the next one - 6CD is knocking them out regularly 🙌 (edited)
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KXI
Yes, yours are in there. Looks like it shouldn't be long now might be tonight or tomorrow... Your friend's https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6530 is not in there, but hopefully will get checked and if ok go in the next one - 6CD is knocking them out regularly 🙌 (edited)
It's a shame it wasn't included, I suppose it was overlooked because it wasn't included in the same list as the other 6. But we personally know the installation and can vouch for it. Thanks again, KXI
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oxido.eth
It's a shame it wasn't included, I suppose it was overlooked because it wasn't included in the same list as the other 6. But we personally know the installation and can vouch for it. Thanks again, KXI
No problem, as I said, your removal request was a great model for others to follow
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KXI
No problem, as I said, your removal request was a great model for others to follow
Thx, I tried to make a good case because all the hard work we've put in this project and because the nice surroundings in Calaf are worth being displayed 😆
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 07/12/2022 1:00 AM
The big clusters are targeted more than the little ones, they also require more effort to confirm so you see big batches going through
01:00
Like the last denylist update of 6.2k hotspots
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
It's done
01:05
If you filter to 'denylist' on the hotspotty map you can see
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Add blocking of wallets for the denylisted hotspots to this HIP.
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Does berserkrrr belong to the helium team?
13:07
This guy is too fierce.
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Believe they are just a motivated user
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Is this one legit
02:02
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
02:07
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 07/13/2022 2:24 AM
Look them up on crowdspot.io
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Okay thanks
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I have a problem. If I have 10 hotspots and 10 locations to install them, I will register them in one day and install them. So if there are no other hot spots around, will it be considered cheating?
08:56
I will choose the same brand of gateway.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 07/13/2022 9:01 AM
No
09:01
Just don't leave them all there for a long time (setting them up)
09:01
No hotspot is judged on a few days data
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What if there are no hot spots around the real environment?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 07/13/2022 9:38 AM
thats not the only factor people use, just being near no others wont get you added, its more about the data being right for the setup and showing no signs of gaming
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 07/17/2022 2:39 PM
?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 07/20/2022 4:08 PM
It's meant to be a back stop last resort for sure
16:09
But a tool that's needed and used in most people's security setups, not that it's the solution to gaming
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16:09
It's a hammer of a tool that's not great but just gives some room to make sure things don't go south in a big way
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But a tool that's needed and used in most people's security setups, not that it's the solution to gaming
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/7143 Think you better take some time to read this.
Hotspot b58 Addresses Cluster A 1121Mv1162pXAJNXz666y2bh2wALJSozLDFs4opUAwZS2TJNgwK2 1126GyNuUAfCLkgAVdTA1jTcDxdQVJsGfE7Rg4ADmtT1rjtcSmy2 1126N2SWdh1VGcmQouqob7tTHGJcATtVzyJEm5EqYUQa7oWngWeY 11273R...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/04/2022 3:19 AM
thats not hip40
03:20
thats the current denylist
03:20
i do not help maintain that
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's a hammer of a tool that's not great but just gives some room to make sure things don't go south in a big way
just quote your words"It's a hammer of a tool that's not great but just gives some room to make sure things don't go south in a big way" so things now going in a wrong way i can see, you still think its a good idea to continue ?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/04/2022 4:59 AM
i think hip40 will be a quicker reaction that what is being done now
04:59
and in a decentralised fashion rather that a single entity controlling who gets added/removed
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I think the harm is already done to helium
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/04/2022 5:00 AM
I dont think the issues as big as everyone imagines
05:00
when you look at the data its relatively small
05:01
4/5th or so of the network is playing by the rules
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let's see
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Your project is impressive, and is probably the second time i saw a legit helium deployment in China.
12:45
Unfortunately, when you look at the explorer, almost the entire China is paralyzed with spoofers.
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the github denylist is full of racist and hater, I think it is not a good direction for helium against gaming, rather than setting up such a ridiculous and meaningless system, I think it should better be handle by a third party company, it protect miner pavicy ,also can take evidence much detail and professionally, maybe even fair to everyone
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Mr Cheese
Your project is impressive, and is probably the second time i saw a legit helium deployment in China.
although he supplied full set of data, KXI1(the repoter) still not believed, and still asking him for photo proof of each hotspot, I think this kind of attitude is very bad!
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they enjoy playing God,people begging them for not pulling in the list,they alway laughing at,and insulting
01:42
To fight against is a good idea, but not execute at that way, when helium is exposed by just earning 6500usd per month, more real deploy project is very important to proof itself,but real deployment is disturbing and refussing by them
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
it is sad that a really good project ruin by that kind of hater, support your decision,and hope your project getting better and better after changing a non_helium gateway
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I dont think the issues as big as everyone imagines
I see more and more people from the Helium community getting involved in the wxm project. We should be able to determine the locations of hotspots better when more Helium compatable weather staions get deployed shouldnt we?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/05/2022 5:33 AM
If you can trust the weather stations
05:34
There's no security chip (no trust) in the data endpoint
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
If you can trust the weather stations
I dont think there would be much to gain by spoofing the gps on the weather station and if there was then the bad actors would be few and far between.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/05/2022 5:35 AM
also you'd have to get the users permission to use the data like that
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
also you'd have to get the users permission to use the data like that
The locations are for all to see on the weather xm explorer arnt they?
05:40
Perhaps a little joint collaboration with Weather xm maybe? Just a thought!
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still waiting on my miners. But do helium gateways not have inbuilt gps? my fleet of chirpstack ones do. i feel if not this is why i see 22 spoofed miners that went up in a little regional town 20km from me we've driven the area with helium gps mappers and none ping only validate each other. we also have our own chripstack network in the same area so know what coverage should be like. using the api same guy has over 300 miners most likely doing the same thing idk 🤷‍♂️ and has potentially made over 50k usd with current hnt price. all for potentially not providing any benefit to the network. it seems to me it has nothing to do with being a racist issue at all but rather a theft issue. But if you get put on the list falsely there needs to be a way you can prove that your miner(s) are actually in the location as well. this is a problem which helium need to and should be able to sort out if they really wanted too.
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Bones
still waiting on my miners. But do helium gateways not have inbuilt gps? my fleet of chirpstack ones do. i feel if not this is why i see 22 spoofed miners that went up in a little regional town 20km from me we've driven the area with helium gps mappers and none ping only validate each other. we also have our own chripstack network in the same area so know what coverage should be like. using the api same guy has over 300 miners most likely doing the same thing idk 🤷‍♂️ and has potentially made over 50k usd with current hnt price. all for potentially not providing any benefit to the network. it seems to me it has nothing to do with being a racist issue at all but rather a theft issue. But if you get put on the list falsely there needs to be a way you can prove that your miner(s) are actually in the location as well. this is a problem which helium need to and should be able to sort out if they really wanted too.
Can you share an example hotspot of these 20 you think are gaming
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11F7SRBwsMFm6XuVtw7kDUsrqPUJYraJeuBC1V7M8pMu3xwBPNG 112dcN6bvAUJufETK5YvDCwGuAWseKoT881ockKX6VBjzagcNQgK 118XWcxyjrMmJvtZowmF2KAzgZYXsa6sCTNXHj7QHBAgLDv3ymZ 112Qa8CUCxpKag9FF4k9uv31q5DgBn4ameuWb8TwUzpNSsAaF5A9 11kQhfQ73XhUt4zkSrLu2Sab645cbBX96RKeaeBZd7askLqT9n7 112SNmQVgSyfbxVCbyDM2AaWUKQBjLB6oeMJUNnQgEezThBye9Zj 112VTySFrJ45wsjkjQ6Xp1NhjH36GZ2KxvdxEo9vK1h9pyr7k8XS 116KuciJS9qC3uGgafSoCUDscvh4i8xuSKvQsM42vRd72zSLkv7 11cTLGLgePHKqJtD4pAcXsiwbjcnoDGceMmguTkqwamPpC3Q9gY 11QvKnNfh7REumtW196GTeZer5HrDumYFXvMbrRcpx9jk3GcW22 112o618kYBbWqLDcLZ1vnwQT1ZEoBgBLaJgRSTUMzeYmdqNpfMLA 112RYx1KgpbmMLYwDA9JmYrNoMnojHcdsb9Mm5txZ3uHKWPZKhTt 11bHGcT6JkMgXTvuEVqV5SUC81rSRop5BmatvnkqBvQP7SxBmiE 112VSBazhxj2kBgp3hqu19NZ4uNgXrZ4oRAHfS7xDG3CdMi7yNAU 112ERQADcxKcLnALpaKLwu8TnXdSefupqSDnz1JBSuesETm8fWRZ 11jZ5qTkfv25S4JFRY48egaDgoB6iqQmpoZgr3HtXSKfo912AWi 11rwF4iSpuQMChxdERME7Ydk2dED2TPHx4ffRycJzi18tLfwUcc 112rpERqFJqbYMqPgTn4vDvitmLMeT3dBZmHb5vWZp9uaGiR9Wwk 112fw4JTBzb4MSNQSo2JmZfrjp8hzsTdFcfjgPe4v3qLAgZ5JxCr 11zpTLQi8ELat9rNmWLhtCf7LiPKyUvnQ8HrJkDMY8me4AHzeMb 112UFR9mtWN9UCdmUGnwaxHLYhbSrf4Z1dXrZViw5bjMuHxKjccc 11CqnnnUi4XpkPYP5Si9X8ZevAL56UVbMSNVpTNwM6izjR8Tmmb Spoofed: 22
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/06/2022 2:14 AM
It's being worked on in #hip-22-diy-concentrators
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/06/2022 3:43 AM
Again, read #hip-22-diy-concentrators
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/06/2022 9:06 AM
It's the idea of a secure concentrator, used in both hotspots and mappers
👆 4
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got, denylist needs hardware intervention, reporting and auditing are troublesome
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ALLOWS
got, denylist needs hardware intervention, reporting and auditing are troublesome
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/07/2022 2:04 AM
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Bones
still waiting on my miners. But do helium gateways not have inbuilt gps? my fleet of chirpstack ones do. i feel if not this is why i see 22 spoofed miners that went up in a little regional town 20km from me we've driven the area with helium gps mappers and none ping only validate each other. we also have our own chripstack network in the same area so know what coverage should be like. using the api same guy has over 300 miners most likely doing the same thing idk 🤷‍♂️ and has potentially made over 50k usd with current hnt price. all for potentially not providing any benefit to the network. it seems to me it has nothing to do with being a racist issue at all but rather a theft issue. But if you get put on the list falsely there needs to be a way you can prove that your miner(s) are actually in the location as well. this is a problem which helium need to and should be able to sort out if they really wanted too.
The original Helium ones had GPS but most of them dont. Hotspots running cheating software can fake GPS data like they fake RSSI data so there is no benefit putting a GPS device inside to avoid mass scale cheatnets.
👆 1
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waveform
The original Helium ones had GPS but most of them dont. Hotspots running cheating software can fake GPS data like they fake RSSI data so there is no benefit putting a GPS device inside to avoid mass scale cheatnets.
thanks, i thought it was a little strange at first but ig it makes sense.
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KXI
Can you share an example hotspot of these 20 you think are gaming
Maybe you can help me/us. Only witnessing each other. One look in the payments tells you everyhing. There are a lot of Pisces Miner that are spoofing since April. But nobody cares about them.... An individual earns a small amount. It's the multitude on hotspot that counts...https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6475 ... https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2995 ... https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/4159 (edited)
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wobente
Maybe you can help me/us. Only witnessing each other. One look in the payments tells you everyhing. There are a lot of Pisces Miner that are spoofing since April. But nobody cares about them.... An individual earns a small amount. It's the multitude on hotspot that counts...https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6475 ... https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2995 ... https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/4159 (edited)
I think nobody here will help you, just because,this maybe a whale with some connection to them,or the project side, and they've been told not to do anything, Especially the guy that now you ask for help,
👎 2
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wobente
Maybe you can help me/us. Only witnessing each other. One look in the payments tells you everyhing. There are a lot of Pisces Miner that are spoofing since April. But nobody cares about them.... An individual earns a small amount. It's the multitude on hotspot that counts...https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/6475 ... https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/2995 ... https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/4159 (edited)
and ofcause, as we all know, helium told lot of lie and exposed by others recently
facepalm 2
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/09/2022 2:59 AM
maybe its because this rooms about HIP40
02:59
try #crowdspot
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rick
I think nobody here will help you, just because,this maybe a whale with some connection to them,or the project side, and they've been told not to do anything, Especially the guy that now you ask for help,
I find this gaming absolutely obvious. Nothing was done about it for months. There is probably some truth to your conclusion.
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wobente
I find this gaming absolutely obvious. Nothing was done about it for months. There is probably some truth to your conclusion.
it is strange that most of them reporting regional like crazy,and some of them reported over thousands a day,i don't understand how careful they can do the job, but seems to me that like some kind of strategy
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rick
it is strange that most of them reporting regional like crazy,and some of them reported over thousands a day,i don't understand how careful they can do the job, but seems to me that like some kind of strategy
When Nova did control the Deny list, there were a lot of complaints about centralization. So Nova passed on the control of the Deny list to volunteers and now the complaint is that Nova dont care. And the volunteers keep quiet due to personal threats.
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rick
I think nobody here will help you, just because,this maybe a whale with some connection to them,or the project side, and they've been told not to do anything, Especially the guy that now you ask for help,
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues?page=4&q=is%3Aissue+author%3AKXI1+is%3Aclosed When I was reporting Pisces, the Pisces gamer(s) said I was working for Bobcat, now I'm working for Pisces? Everytime some conspiracy. (edited)
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wobente
I find this gaming absolutely obvious. Nothing was done about it for months. There is probably some truth to your conclusion.
@wobente Sure, the gaming is obvious, but so is most of it. There's just a lot of stuff to get through. I'm sorry if these are affecting you locally, but overall all gaming affects everyone so any that get actioned anywhere helps everyone. As you can see the pace of reporting and denying is now faster than ever, with over 1,500 getting denyed a week and currently more than that getting reported per day. Hopefully this will further increase and we can start to clear down the backlog and then get a more rapid turnaround on newly reported issues. Many of those being reported now have been gaming for 10+ months.
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waveform
When Nova did control the Deny list, there were a lot of complaints about centralization. So Nova passed on the control of the Deny list to volunteers and now the complaint is that Nova dont care. And the volunteers keep quiet due to personal threats.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/09/2022 3:21 AM
nova still signs off the denylist tho just to be clear to those reading this (edited)
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Is it time to vote on 40 already?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/09/2022 3:21 AM
i wish
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i wish
So what are we waiting for? more 67?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
nova still signs off the denylist tho just to be clear to those reading this (edited)
I think I'm right in saying that Nova employees are some (one?) of the signers, and that other signers are community members. As such (I believe) a merge cannot be done by Nova employees 'alone'? The denylist is managed on the Nova github, so to that extent it is 'hosted' by Nova
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KXI
I think I'm right in saying that Nova employees are some (one?) of the signers, and that other signers are community members. As such (I believe) a merge cannot be done by Nova employees 'alone'? The denylist is managed on the Nova github, so to that extent it is 'hosted' by Nova
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/09/2022 3:26 AM
i think its still nova pushing pr's through
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groot
So what are we waiting for? more 67?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/09/2022 3:27 AM
who knows, i keep bringing up wen vote but get told not yet
coolcry 2
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03:28
the focus is getting IOT and MOBILE going
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nosmaster89 08/10/2022 3:24 PM
I feel 69 will get to vote before this does at this point
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the focus is getting IOT and MOBILE going
nosmaster89 08/13/2022 5:42 PM
getting iot and mobile going stops cheaters harming hnt right (edited)
17:42
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nosmaster89
Click to see attachment 🖼️
That's new to me? How exactly is that work?
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nosmaster89 08/13/2022 5:45 PM
They will be earning IOT
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nosmaster89
They will be earning IOT
which takes from HNT when redeemed?
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shadowfax
which takes from HNT when redeemed?
nosmaster89 08/13/2022 5:46 PM
I think you missed the scarasm element to my statement
💯 3
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nosmaster89
I think you missed the scarasm element to my statement
100% I did miss that.
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nosmaster89 08/13/2022 5:47 PM
But they aren't earning hnt any more so the hnt gaining has stopped
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TheCamel_Sensecap 08/18/2022 6:25 AM
I am going to ask, and sorry, but have not been following this too closely. Neil you are welcome to comment on this. With the current denylist, and the hotspots that have been effected. Are they still listed as active units, or are they going to the offline aspect (where after 90 days they are placed in the offline status) The reason I ask is trying to determine how PoC is being effected at the moment. Basically trying to figure out the status of how long they are kept in the history no matter what the status until they could officially be removed from the network completely. I understand there has to be a timeframe they are on the network for an appeal process, but not sure where they sit when on the denylist. Hope that is clear as mud for everyone.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/18/2022 6:40 AM
They're still active afaik
06:41
Offline, they would have to turn the unit off
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nosmaster89 08/18/2022 6:51 AM
depends if they are still getting any poc at all , any poc will mark them active for up 3? days
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/18/2022 6:55 AM
i believe data transfer still happens too
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nosmaster89
depends if they are still getting any poc at all , any poc will mark them active for up 3? days
Not getting any poc and don't get reactivated by validators
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groot
Not getting any poc and don't get reactivated by validators
nosmaster89 08/18/2022 6:56 AM
they can still get poc though right if they are not on the challenge vals list ?
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nosmaster89
they can still get poc though right if they are not on the challenge vals list ?
True, but I don't think that happens often
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nosmaster89 08/18/2022 6:58 AM
just going on hypotheticals, it can happen
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TheCamel_Sensecap 08/18/2022 7:54 AM
What Nosmaster and I are looking at, is pure numbers. With PoC being so scrutinized as to who is gaming, who has a legitimate hotspot, What numbers are being calculated, and how we can do all this work to put the effort out there, but one validator does not publish the denylist, and these "inactive" hotspots could be activated by one val sending a beacon request. And because most were only beaconing between each other, PoC can possibly be awarded due to one validator. I have brought this up before, just not as in depth. So a denylist, after the appeals process timeframe has expired, and deemed to be a true hotspot that has been "denied" should be removed from the network completely. Not only does that take away the skewed numbers of Hotspots on the network, but as can be seen, they are still not offline (no activity over 90 days) but still inactive, and able to be pinged...
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TheCamel_Sensecap
What Nosmaster and I are looking at, is pure numbers. With PoC being so scrutinized as to who is gaming, who has a legitimate hotspot, What numbers are being calculated, and how we can do all this work to put the effort out there, but one validator does not publish the denylist, and these "inactive" hotspots could be activated by one val sending a beacon request. And because most were only beaconing between each other, PoC can possibly be awarded due to one validator. I have brought this up before, just not as in depth. So a denylist, after the appeals process timeframe has expired, and deemed to be a true hotspot that has been "denied" should be removed from the network completely. Not only does that take away the skewed numbers of Hotspots on the network, but as can be seen, they are still not offline (no activity over 90 days) but still inactive, and able to be pinged...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/18/2022 8:59 AM
This is blockchain, there isn't a remove function
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TheCamel_Sensecap 08/18/2022 9:04 AM
And that is going to be another HIP, if this one ever gets passed, What we are trying to determine is what will HIP40 stop with, in order for a next HIP to be established where if it truly ends on the denylist and no other function of the gamed hotspot can be used for PoC, then what comes after. As you can see a denylist hotspot can still potentially continue to earn, if just one validator does not publish a denylist. as it is not mandatory. I just do not want to see all of your work, and the community doing all this work, and it still does not stop them in the end.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/18/2022 9:09 AM
With hip40 it invalidates the transaction when its processed, as long as the majority in consensus agree 1 validator not having the denylist will not make a difference (edited)
👆 2
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When will this be ready to be voted? It’s definitely time to try something more for improvements for denylisting
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/27/2022 5:14 AM
There are some changes coming but the feeling so far is wait for iot/mobile to fully launch as this is something nova have said they would code
05:15
To tackle anti gaming there are new hips coming that do a better automated job, 40 is meant to be a community run back stop to tackle the biggest gaming clusters, but the overall goal is to not have to use it, and that PoC be more secure
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My point is, every big gamers has months to gain before something happens. That time they don’t care that they get banned because their bags are already filled. “Something” needs to happen that big gamers can’t farm rewards for that long time.
05:18
And with all do respect, “changes are coming” is a very common thing in development. Same as “soon”. For me statements to calm down the crowd without saying a thing. Could you point to the “some changes”
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/27/2022 5:18 AM
Yep I agree
05:19
We've seen snippets of what's to come, starwatchers been asking for test cases to confirm his alogrithms are right
05:19
But it can very accurately pick out the gamers > forward that onto the current deny and even score potential issues registered on the GitHub and speed the process up
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At very best I am pleased with “speed the process up”, I think that’s a good thing. If the time of cheating lowers significant it will be more and more annoying for gamers
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/27/2022 5:53 AM
100% agree, but before launching he has been gathering as much data as possible to make sure it's accurate, that just takes time and data
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If needed bring him in contact, I can provide examples
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Boschje
If needed bring him in contact, I can provide examples
Submit data to the denylist repo and/or cast votes on crowdspot.io that’s the fastest was for us to collect info
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I did 🙂 other submission i will later on
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With #hip-70-scaling-the-helium-network being pushed forward there will be no validator right? Is that a way to kills this hip or should this hip be revised when HIP70 follows soon?
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Should be updated for oracles instead
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With all do respect, as I like this hip, as it should be in already, I think it would be a good idea to duplicate this hip in a new oracles version then right?
08:07
Just to not get this idea put in a corner to hide
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@gutentag when voting on this Hip?
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IMO, HIP-70 will be voted on first, then this HIP gets adjusted to have it implemented on Oracles. But!!! Nova will be running the Oracles in the beginning so they'd have to be willing to do the work for this HIP as part of building the Oracle code.
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It would be nice and elegant when Nova will implement this as part of building the oracle code... never the less, this will cost time and money and wont return that back as other things. so i think its wishful thinking.
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This channel is for a proposal that is not yet implemented. #crowdspot has lots of historical talk of hotspots being removed from the current denylist
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https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/7577 Can anyone help me lift the blacklist, thank you.
Hotspot Name Large Azure Pangolin Hotspot b58 Address 11h4zDCDauxFXPeFjCVixJ4UhGZm8ApbxZuLcABUmt6zDGTDCzh Discord Handle zack_z#5814 Hotspot Manufacturer bobcat Removal Reason I&#39;m sorry it ...
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I am more curious when this hip is proposal is complete enough to vote on
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/16/2022 12:30 PM
In a few days, validators will be voted out, the ideas from this hip will be needed for oracles I believe so it'll be likely reopened as a new hip
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Right, and then maybe, maybe, the dev team should/could implement is as a new orcacles for the hip 70 process? never the less then this HIP wil likely not be "online" this year?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/16/2022 1:26 PM
The new oracle's can be scaled to improve PoC security at the same time, but generally I'm of the view well always need some denylist in the process
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Does it means deny list will not works if validators voted out?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 09/17/2022 9:31 AM
Poc is being rewritten, but I'm sure there will be a denylist somewhere
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/20/2022 8:35 AM
Can you have a single thought of respect before writing something rude like this? (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Can you have a single thought of respect before writing something rude like this? (edited)
Can you have a single thought of judgement before bringing troubles to someone?
09:05
My device is verified by mapper and put in the deny list, do you think it is ridiculous?
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Johnson
Can you have a single thought of judgement before bringing troubles to someone?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/20/2022 9:05 AM
I implore you to re read the rules and learn how to respectfully engage a community
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Johnson
My device is verified by mapper and put in the deny list, do you think it is ridiculous?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/20/2022 9:06 AM
Your mapper data is as "verified" as a "note from your parents" that your hotspot is not cheating (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Your mapper data is as "verified" as a "note from your parents" that your hotspot is not cheating (edited)
So this is how you demonstrate respect by muting me and being irresponsible?
09:29
So this is kidding, right?
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Johnson
So this is how you demonstrate respect by muting me and being irresponsible?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:30 AM
If you start respecting folks, they will start respecting you back, easy as that (edited)
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Your team didn't take full responsibility and make no investigation, bringing troubles to me? This is what you want, respect?
🤦‍♂️ 1
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Johnson
Your team didn't take full responsibility and make no investigation, bringing troubles to me? This is what you want, respect?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:31 AM
We are all volunteers, again if you come in here, harssing people, you will be treated in accordance (edited)
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what kind of volunteers? make the community a mess and feel no guilty?
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Johnson
what kind of volunteers? make the community a mess and feel no guilty?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:35 AM
Just stick to the rules. That's all I'm gonna say
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when some volunteers working for the cops come in your house arresting you by some maybe suspect, hope you can have the full respect to them
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Your mapper data is as "verified" as a "note from your parents" that your hotspot is not cheating (edited)
what rules, haven't you done the same?
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Johnson
what rules, haven't you done the same?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:37 AM
#rules
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Am I violating, judge?
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Johnson
Am I violating, judge?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:39 AM
You called people, i quote: "Who is taking the charge of verification of denylist? Can he/she have more common sense? Or at least IQ > 100?"
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Am I wrong?
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Johnson
Am I wrong?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:40 AM
christ, you're not even aware of your rudeness
09:40
I wont repeat myself, play nice
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don't be childish. I said, when you're facing unfair judgment in the real life someday, just play nice
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Johnson
don't be childish. I said, when you're facing unfair judgment in the real life someday, just play nice
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:43 AM
Good luck with that attitude, do what ever you please as long as you follow the rules. Thats it from me
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yeah, your rules, muting others and play noble
09:44
but never mention your mistake
GuraShrug 1
facepalm 1
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Johnson
but never mention your mistake
Get some fresh air my friend..
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relax my man
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never mind, i'm losing faith in this project anyway, before quitting I just want make it looks more failure by providing You Ask proofs
09:52
more than 80% hotspots are cheating in my city, I set up my devices in the real location providing real lora coverage from the beginning, now what? put in the deny list by some stupid suspect, and the team didn't make any verification at all!!!
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Johnson
more than 80% hotspots are cheating in my city, I set up my devices in the real location providing real lora coverage from the beginning, now what? put in the deny list by some stupid suspect, and the team didn't make any verification at all!!!
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:52 AM
Btw you are posting in the wrong channel, please post in #poc-discussion
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I don't care, just release my suffering, that's all
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Johnson
I don't care, just release my suffering, that's all
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 9:55 AM
At least stick to the right channels
09:56
This is about the concept of the denylist, not managing it
09:56
If you want to get your hotspot removed, write in the correct channel, #poc-discussion
09:56
Did you even requested a removal on github? https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/new/choose (edited)
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thanks for reminding, I will provide proofs without requesting removal, just showing the incapable team losers, hiding behind volunteers
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Johnson
thanks for reminding, I will provide proofs without requesting removal, just showing the incapable team losers, hiding behind volunteers
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 10:01 AM
You outlived your stay, goodbye (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You outlived your stay, goodbye (edited)
FYI they have commented in Github, but bizarrely refuse to give the names / addresses of the 6 hotspots they say have been mistakenly denylisted. It's not clear why they are doing this, and isn't helping anyone investigate whether or not they have been mistakenly listed
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KXI
FYI they have commented in Github, but bizarrely refuse to give the names / addresses of the 6 hotspots they say have been mistakenly denylisted. It's not clear why they are doing this, and isn't helping anyone investigate whether or not they have been mistakenly listed
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 10:23 AM
Thanks for the info, they get bolder and bolder with every day.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Thanks for the info, they get bolder and bolder with every day.
It's perfectly possible they could have been mistakenly listed, but without giving the hotspot names, no-one can check
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KXI
It's perfectly possible they could have been mistakenly listed, but without giving the hotspot names, no-one can check
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 09/21/2022 10:24 AM
The rude nature in the messages resembles to the threats on github, save to say they might have been rightly so added
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Just the one hex above with the mapper has a hotspot in it
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groot
Just the one hex above with the mapper has a hotspot in it
Ah, well now we are getting somewhere. Weird this wasn't provided despite repeated asking, but will check later
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benjaminchodroff 09/25/2022 7:42 AM
My two real deployments were added to the denylist.... and the other third machine which I bought from from a scammer still has not been reviewed from removal. 😦
07:44
Large Gauze Ant and Ambitious Vanilla Goose are real deployments 😦
07:44
Under what grounds were these removed??
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benjaminchodroff 09/25/2022 7:52 AM
https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/7796 and https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/7797. I guess it's time to quit Helium. I've tried, but this is entirely unfair.
Hotspot Name Large Gauze Ant Hotspot b58 Address 112RAQoQGF7nFMtt7iUUYuoovdm3nuHhZxN43ZLNp3SJjhCAG6z7 Discord Handle benjaminchodroff#5260 Hotspot Manufacturer Panther Removal Reason I own another ...
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benjaminchodroff 09/25/2022 8:21 AM
Requesting the scammer machine be removed too - third time i've tried, but maybe third time is the charm. https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/7798. Really frustrating.
08:22
Happy to demonstrate any other evidence required, I'll keep making noise until someone wants to help
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benjaminchodroff
My two real deployments were added to the denylist.... and the other third machine which I bought from from a scammer still has not been reviewed from removal. 😦
Hotspot Name Crazy Rainbow Mockingbird Hotspot b58 Address 1121qftWyjiwJq7UZqYpfCzAALaNJWkyv7HAT6wuBismUhfz1BhW 11233eHQREoMCCJcsbMJWXGgT5NAjeVhFYxhaE3n7ipyUpND2ELy 11299pqsDNWhmQbzEBVngcadJrGB34vM...
09:02
There's a bunch in Shanghai that were denylisted the other day that are getting removed (i.e. undenylisted), and at least one of yours is in there. Best check for the other as well. If so, you don't need to make separate removal requests (edited)
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KXI
There's a bunch in Shanghai that were denylisted the other day that are getting removed (i.e. undenylisted), and at least one of yours is in there. Best check for the other as well. If so, you don't need to make separate removal requests (edited)
benjaminchodroff 09/25/2022 9:08 AM
I do appreciate the reply, and will hope for the best. Sigh...
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Hi per @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io , the author of this HIP, we are closing the HIP and this channel. It will be archived and the history can be viewed.
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Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 10/06/2022 9:48 AM
w!lock ?t c
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notallowed #hip-40-validator-denylist has been locked!
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